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Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Thu Dec 05, 2002 4:05 pm

Guys...

Fairly serious issue harvrd law prof. Alan Dershowitz brought up in his new book Why Terrorism Works

What Democracy Has a Good Human Rights Record Fighting Terrorism?

Seriously?

Not Israel. The world loves to lambast Israel for its "attrocities" in the territories.

Not America. The World is having another field day deriding America's handling of 9/11 and the Afghanistan War?

France? Did France correctly handle the terrorism its citizens in Algeria faced in the 1960s? No way - De Gaulle levelled whole towns with his "killing squads" and sent in Le Pen to finnish off any of the survivors. Or in Indochina?

The British? When the Irish,Indians, Africans, Arabs, etc... all violently revolted to British colonial rule - did the British react in an appropriate way? Locking up and jailing thousands with no trial or jury. Destroying homes (now you know where Israel got the idea) of "terrorists" and ruining the lives of their families? Meeting nonviolent Gandhists with hails of bullets??

Russia? Is Russia acting in a civilized "humane" manor in dealing with the Islamic terror the Chechens have wrought on her weary citizens? Is Russia's levelling of cities, schools, crowded apartment blocks the "enlightened" way? Can't be.

India? How is the world's largest democracy responding to Kashmiri terrorism? Not well - according to the European super-left who when not busy lambasting Israel's campaign in the territories - bide their time attacking India's in Kashmir.

NOW thats just the democracies - or at least a sampling of them. What of the dictatorships?

What of Syria who when confronted with a violent Islamist revolt eminating from Hama, simply leveled the city with everyone in it - killing up to 20,000.

What of Iraq who responded to Kurdish nationalist themes with themes of its own - poison gas.

What of China? Have the Chinese Muslims in Xinjiang or the Buddhists in Tebet faired any better than these more well known minorities? Frankly no one knows - because the Chinese certainly don't publicize their military actions or let unbiased reporters anywhere near em.

What of Jordan? When in the late 1970s Arafat voiced his displeasure at King Hussein's lack of beligerency towards Israel and started a revolution to topple the Hashemite king - did Jordan repsond the way our European friends would have hoped? Hardly - the Jordanians killed thousands of Palestinians - almost got Arafat - he had to escape wearing a burka and costumed as an old woman.

Lebanon, Guatemala, Iran, Columbia, Saudi/Yemen, -- any better?

Of course not.

The point being is that while I hardly condone violent reaction - it is my view there is really no way to peacefully or "correctly" respond to a terrorism that uses a democratic nation's privildegs to destroy it.

If I'm wrong -- pipe in.

TNNH
 
cfalk
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Thu Dec 05, 2002 4:34 pm

Generally speaking. the democratic, developed word will not intentionally target and slaughter large innocents today. Can you imagine Tony Blair ordering Manchester to be fire-bombed because they voted for the Tories in the last election?

Everything is relative. No country is totally innocent from occasional excesses and errors. But to say that the democratic nations have no moral basis for complaining about the Iraqs, North Koreas etc. is a pile of cow chips.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Thu Dec 05, 2002 4:42 pm

6 of one, half a dozen of the other. It doesn't matter much in the end.
Dear moderators: No.
 
Guest

RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:00 pm

Generally speaking. the democratic, developed word will not intentionally target and slaughter large innocents today. Can you imagine Tony Blair ordering Manchester to be fire-bombed because they voted for the Tories in the last election?

Charles of course your right - but you may not be clear on my point. Not partisan politics, I'm far more concerned with the very real threat of terrorism we now see almost weekly. Whether its a Russian threatre, Australian dance club, American office tower, or Israeli schoolbus - is it even possible for these countries to respond to nihilistic terror in a way that the Liberal world would find acceptable - even admirable. I had hoped that my original post would highlight that quite frankly, history is not on our side, that very rarely, if ever has a democracy ever defeated terror in any kind of enlightened way.

The point being: How can the US/Israel/Europe respond to this terrorist threat in a humane manor or one at least acceptable to this European "super-left"? Clearly, our present efforts are failing that test.

TNNH
 
tbar220
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Ter

Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:40 pm

TNNH,

I don't think we can. Terrorism is winning the battle in my eyes. Why? Look at how much the countries who are targeted by terrorism are disliked around the world.
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Guest

RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:41 pm

well thats a big deal now isn't it?

perhaps thats terrorisms biggest victory. turning the victim into the demon. any dissenting view?
 
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:42 pm

You have to admit that the Syrian solution did prove effective in that country.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Ter

Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:49 pm

L-188,

As did Jordan's response to Palestinian terror, killing 30,000 Palestinians.

Its sad, but the countries who haven't "taken off the gloves" so to speak are suffering the most (U.S., Israel, and Russia). If they had really used the above tactics, terrorism wouldn't be a problem anymore. Quite sad.
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We're Nuts
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:07 am

If they had really used the above tactics, terrorism wouldn't be a problem anymore.

Yes, slaughtering inncocent people does tend to have an effect on you. But we wanted to be better than terrorists, didn't we??
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Guest

RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:41 am

nuts:

rather than mouting off - why don't you add some constructive substance - and tell us how you think the US or any country can better respond to these instances of nihilistic terrorism?

i'm all ears.
 
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:44 am

Terrorists exist for a reason. Take away the reason; take away the terror.
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747-451
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:56 am

"6 of one, half a dozen of the other. It doesn't matter much in the end. "

Sure, baby, hwat ever you say....  Yeah sure (tell me? are you actually Fusako Shigenobu in disguise?)
 
todaReisinger
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:04 am

Terrorists exist for a reason. Take away the reason; take away the terror.

yeah, great: to give the example...convert to Islam and cover your wife under a Saudi-style dress...Then indeed, you'll have taken the reason away.


I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
Staffan
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:11 am

"Terrorists exist for a reason."

That reason being that a minority wants something so bad, don't care if the rest of the people want it or not, and use violence and terror to get what they want and at the same time defeat the whole purpose of democracy.

Staffan
 
cfalk
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:18 am

Terrorists exist for a reason. Take away the reason; take away the terror.

Ahhh, the classic apologist excuse. "It's not the criminal's fault, society made him that way."

BULL!!!

When the demands are unreasonable, you cannot give in. Even when the demands ARE reasonable, you cannot give in either, because that will simply encourage more terrorism. Look at what has happened in Columbia. It has become standard procedure to pay ransom demands by the local Marxist terrorists, so it is no an industry second only to cocaine in that country.

Your solution, Nuts, would simply kill a lot more people in the long run.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:16 pm

Why does the US have to ram foreign policy down everyone's throat? Take, for example, Sweden. Certainly not an Islamic country, yet there is very little terrorism. Why? They mind their own damn business. Way to go, Johan.
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tbar220
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Ter

Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:55 pm

OMG, you're kidding right? On the stage of world politics, I believe that the United States has a far greater obligation than Sweden, and can play and do play a far more constructive role. I'm not saying that Sweden is doing poorly, quite the contrary. Yet their influence in the grand scheme of things is much less than that of the United States.
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:09 am

Influence is one thing. Militaristic arrogance is another. Which one do we have?
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UAL747
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:23 am

Hey Nuts, you simply are overlooking the power of the United States vs. Sweden. You're argument that Sweden stays out of everything is true, but look at their realm of influence, nill to say the least. The US has a much greater obligation to the world. Trust me, if we didn't exist, your life would be much different, and probably for the worse.

UAL747
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LHMark
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:28 am

Plus, everyone that bitches about the United States taking too great a role on the world stage would bitch eqaully loudly if the US were to revert to an isolationist policy.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
OO-AOG
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:43 am

When the demands are unreasonable, you cannot give in. Even when the demands ARE reasonable, you cannot give in either, because that will simply encourage more terrorism

That's a very interesting comment Cfalk. Now, put it another way. Why demands from the USA are never unreasonable...If Bush wants to invade Iraq, he will because not a single country worldwide can't do anything against him.
His demands are not unreasonable because he has unlimited power.
Definition of what is terrorism is very complicated.


Look at what has happened in Columbia. It has become standard procedure to pay ransom demands by the local Marxist terrorists, so it is no an industry second only to cocaine in that country.

irrelevant example, those guys are thieves not terrorists. Money is the goal, not freedom or political ideas.


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N79969
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:58 am

Nuts,

Sweden has a smaller population than New York City. The comparison is ludicrous. LHMark is correct. All the whining Europeans, MEs, Africans, and Asians who complain about US "bullying" would whine even more if we disengaged from the rest of the world. The would whine because they could not sell their products to the US, or whine that the sea lanes are no longer safe, and so on.

Fighting terrorism is tricky and will the the test limits of every free society. The current terror from the Middle East is not caused by a particular grievance or arguably is not even truly religiously motivated. The problem is that Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt have a lot of educated young people who have no jobs or no hope of a job. They have a lot of free time on their hands and all the TV ever shows is Palestinians getting whacked by the Israelis. Of course, they never show Israeli children being slaughtered by a suicide bomber.

Arab politicians divert all the restlessness and anger among these young people away from their inept governance to the US and Israel. Then these young people go to a mosque and hear more vitriol from imams. These same imams then give these kids a way to act on their aggression: do "religious" study in Pakistan, kill the opressors of Muslims in Chechnya or Afghanistan or wherever.

Every person needs some adversity in their life. Some kind of struggle. For some that is paying your way through college working 3 jobs and going to school full time. In Saudi Arabia, you can make it to age 18 without lifting a finger and so people are bored. The Wahabi preachers take advantage of the situation for their own evil ends and we have seen the results.

There is no underlying grievance for most terrorists. They are simply screwed up people that need to be killed before they can kill.

An idle mind is the devil's playground.
 
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 2:14 am

OO-AOG,

You are wrong on both counts. The 9-11 hijackers made no demands or did not leave a note. Their objective was mass-murder and not the liberation of Palestine or anything else.

You ludicrously equate Bush's Iraq policy with terrorism. In his 23 years in power, Saddam has started at least 3 wars and starved his people. Now he is trying to build a nuke after he agree with the UN not to do so. The US would be not committing itself to this war if we did not have proof. It has to be absolutely clear to Saddam that if the UN dawdles, the US will do the job and get disarm him.

The Colombian FARC and others are clearly terrorists. They harm innocents for their own goals whether it is money or ideology. Just ask their victims.
 
OO-AOG
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 2:35 am

N79969

You are wrong on both counts. The 9-11 hijackers made no demands or did not leave a note. Their objective was mass-murder and not the liberation of Palestine or anything else.

Of course not N79969, don't expect 9-11 demands to be crystal clear, you need to think at a second level. Those terrorists are fighting against what they think is Evil (The USA and at smaller scale, the western world). They haven't sent 2 767s in buildings just for fun of massive destruction.

In his 23 years in power, Saddam has started at least 3 wars and starved his people.

Since Vietnam, how many wars started by the US and how many GIs (not to mention innocent civilians) have died?


Now he is trying to build a nuke after he agree with the UN not to do so.

Your source? CNN/ABC? Just wait for the UN inspectors conclusions on that point will you?

The US would be not committing itself to this war if we did not have proof


Believe me, if Bush had a proof, he would already be fighting in Iraq and wouldn't wait for an UN inspection!

The Colombian FARC and others are clearly terrorists. They harm innocents for their own goals whether it is money or ideology. Just ask their victims.

Same for bank hold-ups, car jackings or rapes then, where would you put the difference?!. There's a difference between a fight for freedom or fight for an ideology and money robbery. If you don't understand the difference, well....oh well!

Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
cfalk
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 2:48 am

His demands are not unreasonable because he has unlimited power.

Huh??? That does not compute. You are saying that if a nation is powerful, its demands are therefore unreasonable. I suggest you rephrase that.

Unlimited power? Hardly. It's funny how people will exaggerate wildly to convince themselves of moral superiority. But I guess Bush might be flattered (and embarrassed) by your comment - you just called him God.

Bush has no desire to invade Iraq. Those who believe that need to have their logic circuits checked.

What Bush wants is that Iraq be disarmed, whether they like it or not, in accordance with numerous U.N. resolutions dating back to 1991.

Invading Iraq is a How, which logically follows the What. It is not a goal in itself.

Why is answered by the past history of the Iraqi leadership. They started two major regional wars in the past, and have ruthlessly suppressed any opposition in the country that might provide more benevolent leadership. Remember the televised parliament meeting in 1979? It's a pretty good example of what Saddam is really like. It also proved that he is vindictive, and holds his hatred deep until he sees an opportunity to act out his revenge. If a terrorist group ever asked him for a WMD for use against the U.S., there is no doubt that he would gladly make it available. This is the Why

The international community has pursued the diplomatic route for a full decade without success. During that time, inspectors continued to come across banned weapons right up until they were booted out in 1998. Iraqi children starved to death, and Iraqi leaders continued to fill their pockets from the proceeds of highly profitable smuggling. and thumbing their noses at the international community. Now they have managed to buy a further 4 years of peace and quiet during which to hide their illegal stockpiles deep where they cannot be easily found. Why would any nation resist the inspections for 11 years unless they have something to hide?

After 11 years of failing to win Iraqi compliance with U.N. statements of "You must disarm", Bush decided to rewrite that into, "You must disarm, OR ELSE", and convinced the U.N. to back him up. The "or else" part is still not defined, and we hope (and I'm sure Bush hopes more than anyone) that the "or else" will never be needed.

Definition of what is terrorism is very complicated... Irrelevant example, those guys are thieves not terrorists. Money is the goal, not freedom or political ideas.

Terrorism is not that complicated. It is the use of tactics which target innocent civilians with the purpose of causing the general population to fear for their lives unless their demands are met.

The gangs I mentioned ARE terrorists, as what they are aiming for is the establishment of a Marxist state. But weapons, training camps, food etc. etc. are expensive, and now that the Soviets and other Communist countries no longer finance them, they have gone into kidnapping, extortion, and other rackets to finance their operations.

It is the What, Why, How logic again. If you want the full series, it is Who, What, When, Where, How, and Why. I suggest you try to follow it - especially the Why part. I think it was Marcus Aurelius who said that if you ask Why five times (and answer with integrity), you will find the truth.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
N79969
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:10 am

OO-AOG,

"Of course not N79969, don't expect 9-11 demands to be crystal clear, you need to think at a second level. Those terrorists are fighting against what they think is Evil (The USA and at smaller scale, the western world). They haven't sent 2 767s in buildings just for fun of massive destruction."

What are you, a psychic? Al-Qaeda wants to see the destruction of the United States. OBL and others were "delighted" upon hearing the news of the attack. They enjoy killing. The terrorists in Bali did not make requests either. Ambrozi was happy about his killings. Their objective is mass murder. You are superimposing reason onto a group of people that have none.

How many wars did the Soviets start? That is the real question. The Soviets had a publicly stated goal of worldwide communism. We fought against it and won. Saddam is a true warmonger.

"Your source? CNN/ABC? Just wait for the UN inspectors conclusions on that point will you?"

Do you get the "real" news in Switzerland? I am actually waiting on Saddam's report on Saturday and it better match the list that US and western intelligence services have. We are not going to risk American lives for fun. Saddam has been massing much of the technology necessary to build nukes and has documented stores of bio and chemical weapons.

You, Swissgabe, and Manni are so full of hatred for the US that you will argue any stupid vantage point or side with any dictator solely on the basis that it is the opposite of the US view.

Terrorists go around instilling terror in large groups of people. FARC fits this category.

 
cfalk
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:10 am

The 9-11 hijackers made no demands or did not leave a note. Their objective was mass-murder and not the liberation of Palestine or anything else.

N79969,

Sorry, I disagree. Their mission (What) was to eliminate non-Islamic influence in the Arab world.

The How is the use of terrorist tactics such as bombings and hijackings.

The Why is their belief that their form of Islam is the only true religion, that no other form of government should exist other than that of Islamic law, and that anyone who disagrees with that is their mortal (and immortal) enemy.

Since Vietnam, how many wars started by the US and how many GIs (not to mention innocent civilians) have died?

I really can't think of any. In fact, I can't think of any war that the U.S. started, except for the American revolution, and perhaps the Spanish-American War (1898?) whose origins were a bit dubious.

Believe me, if Bush had a proof, he would already be fighting in Iraq and wouldn't wait for an UN inspection!


Probably true. Right now all he has is the very high probability that Saddam is hiding something he should not have, based on a variety of sources and the fact that inspections were resisted. That's why he pushed so hard for the U.N. to send back inspectors with a powerful mandate.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
LHMark
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:16 am

In ANY idealogical struggle, if you follow the trail up from the "Freedom Fighters" to the top, what you find is someone fighting for power and money, not the liberation of a people. It was true or the Bolsheviks, it was true for the North Koreans, it was true for the North Vietnamese, it was true for the Serbs, hell, it was true for the American Revolutionaries in 1776.

THere's always someone pulling the strings that has a lot to gain, and that gain is always at the expense of some other country or people. There's no such thing as a "pure idealogical struggle." USA aside, how free are any people who have "won their freedom?"
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
N79969
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:25 am

Cfalk,

While that might have been their objective, I sense that since 9/11 the objective has broadened in nature to not only repel US influence in the region but to destroy and kill as many Americans as possible regardless of US policy. The hatred has reached a frenetic level. Many of the hijackers were notably irreligious: several were drinkers, others did not attend mosque often, while others solicited prostitutes.
 
OO-AOG
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:11 am

Huh??? That does not compute. You are saying that if a nation is powerful, its demands are therefore unreasonable. I suggest you rephrase that.

Agreed, need to rephrase. If ever I could speak french on these forums...
I mean, whatever the demands of the US are reasonable or unreasonable, people have to comply because Bush has unlimited power.

Unlimited power? Hardly. It's funny how people will exaggerate wildly to convince themselves of moral superiority. But I guess Bush might be flattered (and embarrassed) by your comment - you just called him God.

Exactely, on the international scene, you can easily call him God.

Bush has no desire to invade Iraq. Those who believe that need to have their logic circuits checked.

You're wrong on that point, he needs to put a friendly governement in place.
Especially if you take into account that he has already moved to the middle-east thousands of soldiers and equipment. What would be his credibility if he has to send everything at home?

Cfalk, you give us also a brilliant history lesson on Iraq's, and a good summary of the official US version of why this war is mandatory. I won't be the one telling you that Saddam isn't dangerous, he is. No doubt. He's the exact definition of what a dictator is. Now, what I've tried to highlight above is that this is not the only reason why this war is so important to Bush's eyes. There's another issue in this conflict called Oil.

The USA is the largest consumer of oil in the world. Oil import data of the USA show that it has a diversified source of oil suppliers. About 49 per cent of US oil imports are from various countries in North and South America, 25 per cent is from the Middle East and the rest is from other sources which include Europe and Africa. When you take a look at oil reserves of the major oil producers of the world, you will notice that, apart from Venezuela and the countries of the Middle East, the oil reserves of other oil suppliers to the USA will be exhausted within the next forty-one years. It is interesting to note that, at the current rate of production, the oil reserves of Iraq and Kuwait will last much longer. In fact, according to the calculations, the oil reserves of these two countries will survive the longest period of time.

Number of Years a Country's Oil Reserve is expected to last:

Iraq 128.98
Kuwait 127.70

and..

Venezuela 63.58
USA 10.52

These reserves can, therefore, become great strategic assets in the near future, and getting control of them can become crucial for a global country like the USA. Therefore, a regime more friendly than the current one in Iraq is definitely of strategic significance to the USA in the medium and long run.

(source BP for figures)

And, oh, yes by the way, Bush should more often follow Marcus Aurelius quotes:

How much trouble he avoids who does not look to see what his neighbour says or does or thinks


Cheers




Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
N79969
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:35 am

OO-AOG,

I take back what I said earlier when I lumped you in with Manni and Swissgable. You are far more thoughtful than those two.

This is not about Iraq's oil. That is a myth. It is available already. The last time Saddam invaded a neighbor, we got caught up in it. There is no reason to believe that he will hesitate to attempt again to harass a neighbor and he will have a nuke the next time. The world is on a collision course with Saddam. It is a matter of time. The real issue is whether the world should deal with him on our terms or on his when he has a nuke.
 
OO-AOG
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:36 am

What are you, a psychic? Al-Qaeda wants to see the destruction of the United States. OBL and others were "delighted" upon hearing the news of the attack. They enjoy killing. The terrorists in Bali did not make requests either. Ambrozi was happy about his killings. Their objective is mass murder. You are superimposing reason onto a group of people that have none.

OK, you obviously have understanding problems on many things. Sure, those guys are just serial killers jealous of the USA, end of story. forget it.  Sleepy

How many wars did the Soviets start? That is the real question. The Soviets had a publicly stated goal of worldwide communism. We fought against it and won. Saddam is a true warmonger.

The US fight against communism has resulted in thousands of innocent people deaths. I wouldn't put this fight as an example. I guess there's no need to give you some facts or do you want to hear them...?  Wink/being sarcastic
Just have a look to CIA secret operations (the ''make sure a few governments will no be 'Russian' friendly'' policy.)

Do you get the "real" news in Switzerland?

LOL yes definitely and not only US-made news.

You, Swissgabe, and Manni are so full of hatred for the US that you will argue any stupid vantage point or side with any dictator solely on the basis that it is the opposite of the US view.

I am against US foreign policy, that's it. My parents are living in the US and I like a lot of things from your country, including Americans themselves.


OK enough for me tonight,

Cheers

Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
Rai
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:54 am

Russ, to answer your question, no there is no country in the world with a squeaky clean record when it comes to combating terrorism. I find some of the comments on this thread to be quite disturbing and extremely negligent when it comes to the issue and to solutions. The “ubber-left” is so quick to gloat about terrorism being a “grey” issue and that there are many facets and angles involved and that its sources are vast and complex. Yet when it comes to certain issues (i.e. Israel vs. Palestine), they revert to the “black and white” explanation they so boldly and degradingly tarnish others with. With such arrogance, inconsistency and hypocrisy, it’s no wonder why terrorism thrives today and why it's so difficult to combat.
 
N79969
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RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 5:00 am

OO-AOG,

The Soviet spread of communism killed a lot of innocent people. I think it is your jaundiced viewpoint that has led to your lack of comprehension of US foreign policy.

Of course al-Qaeda has roots in political discontent. That is old news. Now what is that they seek to do? They would keep killing if the US stopped its support for Israel today.
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 6:40 am

Fighting terrorism isnt and never should be a popularity contest, you do what you have to do to weed them out and destroy them. If you show your weak or make concessions then youve lost and the terrorists will only intensify their initiative. For some reason thats a hard concept for many to understand in this forum.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 7:34 am

The US fight against communism has resulted in thousands of innocent people deaths. I wouldn't put this fight as an example.

That's like saying that the fight against Hitler cost millions of deaths, and that Churchill and Roosevelt should have been hung for it. It think you have it backwards.

I guess there's no need to give you some facts or do you want to hear them...?

We're all ears. Please enlighten us.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 7:55 am

A quick side note on the Iraqi issue. Why should they not be allowed a defensive military? After all, Japan was. And with an evil little country like Israel so nearby, I can understand their concerns. Sharon has at least 400 nuclear devices, and I'd bet a majority are aimed at Baghdad. Would we really rush to the aid of Saddam if Sharon's finger were to "slip"?
Dear moderators: No.
 
747-451
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 5:50 am

RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:37 am

"Why does the US have to ram foreign policy down everyone's throat?"

how about:

"Why does the radical Islamicists have to ram their view of what's "just" down everyone's throat?  Yeah sure

Just as the US is accused of hegemony, why isn't the same hurled at radicals? No not everyone wants the chicks to wear burqa's or pray only to Allah and even though there is more to it than that, there is more to terrorism than the ceaseless blame mongering against the US.

***************************
"The 9-11 hijackers made no demands or did not leave a note. Their objective was mass-murder and not the liberation of Palestine or anything else."

Actually, their motives were made very clear.--if you don't follow their view, without compromise, they will kill, period.


*****************************
The Colombian FARC and others are clearly terrorists. They harm innocents for their own goals whether it is money or ideology. Just ask their victims.

Same for bank hold-ups, car jackings or rapes then, where would you put the difference?!. There's a difference between a fight for freedom or fight for an ideology and money robbery. If you don't understand the difference, well....oh well!

Well, NOT. The FARC, TupacAmaru and other South American Terrorists have some sort of ideology behind the various "criominal" acts they commit--blackmail, kidnapping, extrotion are performed to fund what ever ideological goal they have.

as far as FARC here is a descriptiopn from http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/farc.htm

"Description
Established in 1964 as the military wing of the Colombian Communist Party, the FARC is Colombia’s oldest, largest, most capable, and best-equipped Marxist insurgency. The FARC is governed by a secretariat, led by septuagenarian Manuel Marulanda, a.k.a. "Tirofijo," and six others, including senior military commander Jorge Briceno, a.k.a. "Mono Jojoy." Organized along military lines and includes several urban fronts."--not the usual structure of "just a group of bak robbers"...

so much for equating them with rapists and car jackers now?? Don't be so sure that terrorists will only employ bombings of ceremonial targets and kidnappings. They will use even rape as just another tool--a means to their end.

*******************************************

"In ANY idealogical struggle, if you follow the trail up from the "Freedom Fighters" to the top, what you find is someone fighting for power and money, not the liberation of a people.

However, there are some groups that did have an actual "cause", perverted none the less. Groups from the 70's like Japanese Red Army, Baader Meinhoff, Brigatte Rosse, Symbionese Liberation Army, FALN all looked to create some form of revolutionary anarchy, socialist/communist state or bring down a government. Even modern "terrorists" like PETA or Earth Liberation Front at least have some sick sort of ideology. All of these groups motives were other than just money and power, though lust for power was certainly a component of their utlimate goals. And do employ general criminality as tools.

It was true or the Bolsheviks, it was true for the North Koreans, it was true for the North Vietnamese, it was true for the Serbs, hell, it was true for the American Revolutionaries in 1776."

However, in the case of the revolutionaries of 1776, they certainly had more legitimate goals of a free democratic country and to rid themselves of the sort of religious tyranny(like the Islamicists want now) as opposed to some sort of nihilistic/anarchistic socialised city-state.

 
Guest

RE: Democracy With A+ Human Rgts Rec'd Fightin Terror?

Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:35 pm

This turned into a great thread.

Thanks Cfalk for some excellent commentary.
Thanks Rai for piping in with a clear answer.

N79969 and 747-451: also great comments

We're Nuts: keep the surprises coming.

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