MD-90
Topic Author
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

The Bible

Sat Dec 07, 2002 10:33 pm

This is a fascinating dissertion on the greatest book ever written. From
http://net-burst.net/search.htm

The Bible covers hundreds of topics, yet it does not contradict itself. It remains united in its theme. "Well, what's so amazing about that?" you may ask. Consider these facts. First, the Bible was written over a span of fifteen hundred years. Second, it was written by more than forty men from every walk of life. For example, Moses was educated in Egypt and became a prophet over Israel. Peter was a simple fisherman, Solomon was a king, Luke was a doctor, Amos was a shepherd, and Matthew was a tax collector. All the writers were of vastly different occupations and backgrounds.

Third, it was written in many different places. The Bible was written on three different continents: Asia, Africa, and Europe. Moses wrote in the desert of Sinai, Paul wrote in a prison in Rome, Daniel wrote in exile in Babylon, and Ezra wrote in the ruined city of Jerusalem.

Fourth, it was written under many different circumstances. David wrote during a time of war, Jeremiah wrote at the sorrowful time of Israel's downfall, Peter wrote while Israel was under Roman domination, and Joshua wrote while invading the land of Canaan.

Fifth, the writers had different purposes for writing. Isaiah wrote to warn Israel of God's coming judgment on their sin, Matthew wrote to prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah, Zechariah wrote to encourage a disheartened Israel who had returned from Babylonian exile, and Paul wrote addressing problems in different Asian and European churches.

If we put all these factors together, the Bible was written over fifteen hundred years, by forty different authors, at different places, under various circumstances, and addressing a multitude of issues. It is amazing that with such diversity, there is such unity in the Bible. That unity is organized around one theme: God's redemption of man and all of creation. Hundreds of controversial subjects are addressed and yet the writers do not contradict each other. The Bible is an incredible document.



Personally, I thought this was interesting. I finished my first read through of the entire Bible (an NIV Study Bible) a few weeks ago. It took me about a year to read the whole thing, and it was worth it, even though the Old Testament got rather boring sometimes.

I also have to wonder... I don't mean to start a flame war, but I've read the Bible and I don't remember it contradicting itself anywhere. Yet, when people talk about the Quran, one person'll show how Mohammed said to don't hurt people, and someone else will point out that here it says to make war on non-Muslims. Something to think about, I guess.
 
Bizjets
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:11 pm

RE: The Bible

Sat Dec 07, 2002 10:49 pm

Should we kill?
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
vs.


Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."
For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
vs.


I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

Should we steal?
Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."
vs.


Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Shall we keep the sabbath?
Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
vs.


Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."
John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."
Shall we make graven images?
Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."
vs.


Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"
Are we saved through works?
Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
vs.


James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."
The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

Should good works be seen?
Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."
I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."
vs.


Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret."
Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."
Should we own slaves?
Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."
vs.


Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."
Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."
Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

Does God change his mind?
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
vs.


Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

Are we punished for our parents' sins?
Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."
vs.


Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Is God good or evil?
Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
vs.


Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."
Does God tempt people?
James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
vs.


Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
Is God peaceable?
Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."
Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
vs.


Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."
Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."
Was Jesus peaceable?
John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."
Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."
vs.


Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."
vs.


John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
"Record" and "witness" in the above verses are the same Greek word (martyria).

Shall we call people names?
Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]
vs.


Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]
Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."
I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."
vs.


Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."
How many Gods are there?
Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."
vs.


Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."
Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."
I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

Are we all sinners?
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."
vs.


Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
How old was Ahaziah?
II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."
vs.


II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."
Should we swear an oath?
Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."
Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them."
Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."
See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

vs.


Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."
When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."
vs.


John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him."
It is an ad hoc defense to claim that there are two methods of reckoning time here. It has never been shown that this is the case.

Shall we obey the law?
I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."
Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." See also Romans 13:1,7 and Titus 3:1.
vs.


Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather then men."
How many animals on the ark?
Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark."
Genesis 7:8-9 "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."
Genesis 7:15 "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."
vs.


Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."
Were women and men created equal?
Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
vs.


Genesis 2:18,23 "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. . . . And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
Were trees created before humans?
Genesis 1:12-31 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: . . . And the evening and the morning were the third day. . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
vs.


Genesis 2:5-9 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. .Ê.ÊAnd the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."
Did Michal have children?
II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."
vs.


II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."
How many stalls did Solomon have?
I Kings 4:26 "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."
vs.


II Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."
Did Paul's men hear a voice?
Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."
vs.


Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
(For more detail on this contradiction, with a linguistic analysis of the Greek words, see "Did Paul's Men Hear A Voice?" by Dan Barker, published in the The Skeptical Review, 1994 #1)

Is God omnipotent?
Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
vs.


Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
Does God live in light?
I Timothy 6:15-16 " . . . the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach . . ."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
John 12:35 "Then Jesus saith unto them, . . . he that walketh in darkness knoweth not wither he goeth."
Job 18:18 "He [the wicked] shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world."
Daniel 2:22 "He [God] knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." See also Psalm 143:3, II Corinthians 6:14, and Hebrews 12:18-22.
vs.


I Kings 8:12 "Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (Repeated in II Chronicles 6:1)
II Samuel 22:12 "And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies."
Psalm 18:11 "He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."
Psalm 97:1-2 "The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him."
Does God accept human sacrifice?
Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."
vs.


Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
Exodus 22:29 "For thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."
Judges 11:30-39 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon . . . and the Lord delivered them into his hands. . . . And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: . . . And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed."
II Samuel 21:8-14 "But the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal . . . and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest . . . And after that God was intreated for the land."
Hebrews 10:10-12 " . . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ . . . But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God."
I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."
Who was Joseph's father?
Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."
vs.


Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 12:16 am

I agree MD-90.

The fact of the matter remains that the Bible is accurate, historically, and it's one of the best books around. All the books of the Bible, despite having been written by different people inspired by the Holy Ghost, are very harminous and flow very well.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 12:30 am

Also, Md-90 congratulations on reading the whole Bible. It can be hard at times, but it's worth it! The fact that is doesn't contradict itself, despite what some people say, is incredible!
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
MD-90
Topic Author
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 12:46 am

Bizjets, you're going to have to be a little more obvious than that. None of your points directly contradicts one another. They may be confusing, like the fact that God, who is peaceful, can also wage war, but is there a "Thou shalt not kill," and later a "Thou may kill whom thou wilt?" Nope.

Should we kill? No, the Bible says not to kill unjustly. Murder and war are two different things.

Should we tell lies? Clearly it says not to lie, but that God has forced people to lie before, and to believe those lies.

Should we steal? No. But the "spoils of war" are different than plain theft. Adn do you really think that the men were stealing that colt? GOD MADE EVERYTHING! That colt was His, and He was nice enough to let the "owners" of the colt have use of it while it was on the earth.

Your keeping the Sabbath argument just doesn't seem to make any point, really.

But so on and so forth. I have finals next week and I don't have time to go through and discuss all of your points, which I'll bet you got from some atheist website and didn't come up with all by yourself, but if you have any specific verses that you think show contradictions, any that you truly feel makes the Bible contradict itself, ask me and if I don't know the answer I'll ask some of my friends.



 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 12:51 am

The Bible is accurate? Sure, depending on how you want to interpret what you read. Just like Nostradamus is accurate, depending on the very loose interpretation. Why the different versions (King James version, etc). While I would like to believe, its hard not to see the bible as a great work of fiction as well.
 
MD-90
Topic Author
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 1:22 am

The great webpage below can answer your questions as to why, out of all the Bible versions, the King James is the Word of God, translated into English, without error.

 
MD-90
Topic Author
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 1:25 am

What the heck? Airliners.net didn't link my link, I guess.

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/158/158cont.asp

Not only does the Bible not contradict itself, but it also has never once been proven wrong. Scholars have thought before that they had previously successfully attacked the Bible and won, but they were later shown to be wrong. Case in point: once, so called Bible scholars thought that Luke must've been wrong, because in Luke 2 it mentions that Cyrenius was governor of Syria when Caesar Augustus ruled. Well, everybody knew that Cyrenius had ruled at a different time period, so the Bible was wrong. Until a few years ago, when a coin was discovered with Cyrenius on it, and it was dated to the same time period that Luke described. Turns out there were TWO Cyreniuses in history, and that Luke was indeed correct.
 
Bizjets
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:11 pm

RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 1:35 am

MD-90, Marco

No offense but your failure to see the faults of the bible are the same ones that lead to the Islamic extremism we see in the middle east. Its called denial. And yes, I am a Catholic who goes to church every Sunday. And yes, I have read the Bible cover to cover.
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 2:29 am

No offense but your failure to see the faults of the bible

I don't believe that the Bible has inaccuracies. If I believed it did, I wouldn't believe in it.

are the same ones that lead to the Islamic extremism we see in the middle east.

Excuse me? Are you saying because I believe that the Bible is accurate and because I uphold the teachings of Christ I'm a terrorist?

Its called denial.

You're just seriously not making sense now...

And yes, I am a Catholic who goes to church every Sunday. And yes, I have read the Bible cover to cover.

Excellent and good for you. I go to Church and I'm Christian as well. As a Christian though, I have my doubts, however I don't think the Bible has faults.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
JetService
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RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 3:11 am

Of course there's some descepencies. Keep in mind that the accounts were by several different people (as mentioned), and any descrepencies of minutia may be attributed to differing accounts, information, speculation, opinions and even mistakes by translators or authors themselves. I think the author of this post is saying the overall historical premise is the same through all accounts. I suspect you can find the same types of minor descepencies in details in various history books regarding WWII, but the big picture is all the same.

Also, for anyone that hasn't actually read the Bible, reading snippets out of context is a loose way to gauge on an overall document. The Bible itself is a great resource for this rather than copy/paste-jobs from the Internet.
"Shaddap you!"
 
Klaus
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Marco

Sun Dec 08, 2002 7:13 am

Marco: I don't believe that the Bible has inaccuracies. If I believed it did, I wouldn't believe in it.

There´s a huge difference between having some inaccuracies (or even mistakes) and being wrong on all counts.

It takes an increasing level of denial to believe in the 100% accuracy of the bible; Still, there is undeniable value in it as well. And that value is not destroyed by misconceptions and plain ignorance that was common at the time the bible was written.

A person does not deserve damnation for a misstep; And this book does not deserve to be disregarded as a source of wisdom just because some of its authors made mistakes.

Things just aren´t that simple.
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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The Bible Stands

Sun Dec 08, 2002 8:02 am

Composed by Haldor Lillenas in 1917, The Bible Stands:

The Bible stands like a rock undaunted
’Mid the raging storms of time;
Its pages burn with the truth eternal,
And they glow with a light sublime.

Refrain

The Bible stands though the hills may tumble,
It will firmly stand when the earth shall crumble;
I will plant my feet on its firm foundation,
For the Bible stands.

The Bible stands like a mountain towering
Far above the works of men;
Its truth by none ever was refuted,
And destroy it they never can.

Refrain

The Bible stands and it will forever,
When the world has passed away;
By inspiration it has been given,
All its precepts I will obey.

Refrain

The Bible stands every test we give it,
For its Author is divine;
By grace alone I expect to live it,
And to prove and to make it mine.

Refrain
 
Klaus
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MD-90

Sun Dec 08, 2002 10:07 am

MD-90: The Bible stands and it will forever,

Yep. Exactly like all those "eternal" doctrines of those ancient religions nobody remembers any more...  Insane
 
MD-90
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RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 12:26 pm

Sure...we don't remember those "eternal doctrines of ancient religions," but we sure as heck know Christianity.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 12:32 pm

I think we all have to remember that the bible, like a lot of other books is always interpreted differently by each reader, and thus no one is right or wrong. It is all based on interpretation.
 
lubcha132
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RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 12:37 pm

well as a jew i believe in the "old" (don't start a fire here) Testament, and i well, i am amazed at it. one of the 13 Principles of Faith written by Maimonides (Rambam) is that it came straight from G-d and was written by Moses. It never contradicts itself, and there are hints to other parts of the Bible in it. It is an excellent role model to live in and it shows that everyone is human, just like the Patriarchs and great figures, and there is no perfection, even in Moses, the humblest of all men.

I am a big fan of G-d. Personally, i think that he provides for me (well for everyone) and he can just as easily take it away. Also, everything bad that happens is for a good reason. For example, we just read in these past weeks' portions that are read on Shabbos that Joseph was thrown into a pit by his brothers and sold into slavery in Egypt. He gets thrown into jail, there's a whole big story that leads to the bondage of the jewish people, but what comes out of it? G-d rescues the nation and gives us a land, as promised, under the direction of Moses (and later Joshua).
 
sleekjet
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RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 12:46 pm

Yes, there are areas that are available to be interpreted differently. But most will assert that there are essentials which must be adhered to. Like the virgin birth. Like Jesus dying on the cross to remove our sins. Like the second coming of Christ.

I applaud MD-90 and Marco for their spiritual insight and discipline, and for being "able to give an answer for the hope that is within".
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
MD-90
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RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 12:51 pm

That's interesting, Lubcha132. My 12th grade Sunday school teacher also told us that the directions for living our life could be found in Matthew chapters 5 through 7.
 
atct
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RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 1:27 pm

I give MD-90 a hand here. We need more people like you to stand up and defend the faith under times of trouble and to "stir the pot" in times of peace. I pray for you KROC and Lubcha132, that you will come to know Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. I myself am an Ordained deacon the presbyterian church, USA. If you have any questions regarding the faith, or if you would like to know how you to can have jesus im yoru life, feel free to contact me.

In His Service,

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
mbmbos
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RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 1:36 pm

And not only do you pray for KROC and Lubcha132, you announce that you are doing so on a airliners.net.

How very sanctimonious of you!

 
DE727UPS
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RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 2:22 pm

Interesting thread.

I'm a strong believer in Christianity.

At the same time....I've always struggled with certain things in the bible. In my way of thinking....the principle of and eye for an eye (old testament), as in if you kill, you deserve to be killed....and the principles of Jesus's teachings in Matthew 5....basically peace, love, and forgiveness....are contradictory.

I was raised in a church which believes in peace....in which the concept of war is wrong. I work with many who claim to be Christian who not only were in the military at one time but who believe that killing the enemy is the Lord's work.

I decided that I don't have the answer for what is right. Each person, within the bounds of their own beliefs in God, Christianity, and the bible, must decide what is right for them based on their own interpretation of the bible and scripture....and based on their own walk with the Lord. I know God will sort it all out in the end....we can only do what we think is best.
 
MD-90
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RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 2:25 pm

Taken from a "about the author" section of a certain Bible (I don't know which one):

The Author - God has been known and recognized as the supreme expert on such issues as life, death, forgiveness, and truth. He works as a teacher, theologian, physician, father, son, counselor, and many other things - all simultaneously without taking a break. His timeless classic, The Bible, has been translated into thousands of languages and read by people throughout the centuries from all walks of life. God works out of his home in heaven and can be reached simply
 
Guest

RE: The Bible

Sun Dec 08, 2002 3:58 pm

As Homer says, God is my favourite fictional character.

Although I do not believe in the bible being the word of god, or anything religious, I would defend people's right to believe that, so long as it doesn't infringe on my life.

How many religious people would do likewise in a reverse role?

Also, for anyone that hasn't actually read the Bible, reading snippets out of context is a loose way to gauge on an overall document.

Yet, the author of this thread has done this with the Q'uran. Why is that?
 
Marco
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 12:21 am

As Homer says, God is my favourite fictional character.

Ok...

Although I do not believe in the bible being the word of god, or anything religious, I would defend people's right to believe that, so long as it doesn't infringe on my life.

I agree.

How many religious people would do likewise in a reverse role?

Lots would, unless you'd like to generalize.

Also, for anyone that hasn't actually read the Bible, reading snippets out of context is a loose way to gauge on an overall document.

Yet, the author of this thread has done this with the Q'uran. Why is that?


And why are you defending that? What's it to you?

Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
AirT85
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Atct

Mon Dec 09, 2002 4:25 am

ATCT-If you could please e-mail me it would be appreciated: rockerjed@hotmail.com
Thank-you
Tony
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 4:37 am

It's because it took me a year to read the Bible, and I don't have time to spare to read the Quran. I'm not opposed to reading it, I just don't have the time at this point to do anything other than skim over it.
 
Guest

RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 4:57 am

Marco

I don't like to generalise, and the fact is, a big proportion of the supposed "Christian" population will not let other people lives their lives the way that they want to without interference. Anti-abortionists, anti-gay, evangelists (people may say that evangelists are hyprocrites, but they do have extremely large populations), anti-stem cell researchers, anti-this and anti-that.

Why am I defending the Q'uran? I don't get the gist of your question. Explain what you mean and I will respond in kind.

Also, Marco, there is no need to cut and paste my entire post to make 1 or 2 word responses. It is annoying, really.

MD-90

You mentioned the q'uran in your opening post, and how it contradicts itself. BizJets has shown clear contradictions in the bible, but he is replied to with "you are taking it out of context". Isn't it possible, therefore, that detractors of the q'uran are doing exactly the same thing?

There are religious scholars out there who admit that the bible is full of contradictions. Maybe is ctbarnes is still about, and seeing as he is a no-bullshit kinda guy, he can maybe point some of these out (if he is aware of them). One thing I do respect about said forum member is that he believes in his religion but he isn't blinded by it, and frankly, there are some members on this thread who are.
 
Guest

RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 5:13 am

Actually the statements above on the bible are inaccurate, even in the most religious of terms. The bible was not *written* in all those places by all those people. Even if you take it as the holy book of christianity you must conceed that it was written by someone else *on behalf* of these people.

Indeed there are many contradictions within the bible, and much that even the most diehard of christians will not abide by.

Bizjets,

That's an awful lot of time you must have had on your hands!

MD90,

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to translate a book that large from one language to another without misinterpretation. How can you say that it has not been misinterpreted when you aren't the one who wrote the book in the first place? It's a claim that cannot be proven!

It's not that you can't prove the bible wrong, it's that many don't want to prove it wrong and even if it were done then many would not accept it. Those of us who are not zealously protecting the bible and all contained therein watch how things relating to it are rapidly whipped into religious areas (such as the dead sea scrolls) to be "interpreted" by religious scholors and we are supposed to blindly believe what they say.

Indeed we have people within our own ranks that *claim* to have read and comprehended the original bible in it's dead language (such a book doesn't exist) and can GUARANTEE that the english version is an exact interpretation. Obviously this claim cannot be made. As Kroc mentioned above, Nostrodamus is a classic example of the interpretation of foreign language documents to say what we want it to. It's also a classic example of people changing history to suit themselves (the tome of the twin brothers isn't even a Nostrodamus prophecy).

It's a book and it says stuff that you believe in. I accept that, but I dont' accept it's public use as "proof". Even the church accepts that it is not an accurate representative of history, that's it's written to represent history and to give lessons (ie, a lot of it is moral fiction).

Marco,

You wouldn't believe in the bible if it had inaccuracies in it? "God Created Adam and Eve". Evolution is PROVEN, there is a path from monkey to man. God did NOT create Adam & Eve. That's a symbolic statement in the bible, written by people who had no concept of evolution, definitely inaccurate and accepted as inaccurate by most of the christian faith. They dont' see it as detracting from the bible, and they dont' see it as proof that god doesnt' exist.

I wonder about your faith and your blind devotion to the bible rather than the god.

Lubcha,

I would have to disagree with your statement about good coming out of everything, I simply don't believe it. I'm not sugesting that your faith is wrong, but I suggest that the statement that *god does everything for a reason* can be quite offensive to some people. (ie, to those who bury their children, or who live in abject poverty etc). To some religion is the haves mocking the have nots. Some religions *fanatics* will even go so far as to suggest the have nots deserve what they get because of something they've done.

The arguement that everything good is gods doing and everything bad is due to the freedom of man to choose doesn't work.

ACTCT,

Whilst I can appreciate your faith I would personally find it extremely offensive if I knew you were *praying* for me and/or my soul.





VH-ADG
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 5:44 am

ADG, Bizjets didn't have to have a lot of time on his hands. He just did a copy and paste job from some atheist or anti-Christian website.

Are you trying to say that a person named Isaiah didn't write the book of Isaiah? That Paul didn't write his 13 books in the New Testament? That Luke didn't write the gospel of Luke? Are you kidding me?

And if you don't think that it's possible to translate the Bible from Hebrew (the OT), and Greek (the NT) into English, and have it be accurate.......well...are you a scholar of languages? I bet not. You're just spouting off.
 
Beefmoney
Posts: 1065
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 6:52 am

And here we go again.....ADG: Evolution is NOT proven, you just like to say that it is to make people that are "on the fence" think so. Scientist are still very vauge on what they believe regarding evolution.

There are two groups that each scientist falls under when asked about what they believe about a certain area of evolution.

----Gradualism - Changes in the morphology of species are the result of gradual changes in the genomes of species. The apparent lack of gradualism in the fossil record is due to an incompleteness of the fossil record.

----Punctuated Equilibrium - Changes in morphology are due to species sorting following geographic isolation and major reductions in population numbers. The punctuated appearance of the fossil record is real.

If it was fact and proven, we would not have these scientist still debating how evolution occured.

IT IS FAR FROM PROVEN



 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:01 am

The only argument from creationists: evolution isn't proven therefore it didn't happen.

Your bone's got a little machine
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:28 am

The only argument from creationists: evolution isn't proven therefore it didn't happen.

Conversely, the only argument from the Evolutionists is: God isn't proven therefore He didn't happen.

Has it occurred to anyone that there may be room for both points of view in this debate? We seem to go in circles spouting the same tired old rhetoric reminiscent of the Scopes Monkey Trial. Both Evolutionary theory and theology have evolved (no pun intended) significantly since then. Is it possible the debate could progress forward to engage this?

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:35 am

Evolution. There are 6 kinds of evolution, and guess what? The first 5 have to be taken on faith. Only the last one has ever been observed.

1. Cosmic - Big Bang makes Hydrogen
2. Chemical - higher elements evolve
3. Evolution of stars and planets from gas
4. Organic - life from rocks and simple elements
5. Macro-evolution - changes between kinds of plants and animals
6. Micro-evolution - changes within kinds

Lucy is the oldest human known, right? She's supposedly 2.9 million years old.
Well, Richard Leakey found a normal human skull buried under rock dated as being 212 million years old.

Do you know how human embryos supposedly have gill slits? And that this alledgedly proves that we evolved from fish? Sure...except that Sir Earnest Haeckel made up those drawings in 1869, and they were proven wrong in 1874. The supposed gills are really folds of skin that grow into bones in the ear and glands in the throat.

Piltdown Man - turns out the jawbone belonged to a modern ape

Neanderthal - At the 1958 International Congress of Zoology, Dr. A. J. E. Cave said that his examination of the famous skeleton found in France over 50 years ago was an old man who suffered severely from arthiritis.

Cro-Magon - one of the earliest and best established fossils is equal in physique and brain capacity to modern man, so what's the difference?

Homo Sapiens - this genius thinks we have monkeys back in the family tree

And as far as the wild theory that gluons in atoms can explain evolution, well, how does something that's never been seen, measured, or even known to exist as anything or than a theory, be evidence?

Creationism may be hard to accept, but the Bible supports itself better than the proponents of evolution.
 
777236ER
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:41 am

And as far as the wild theory that gluons in atoms can explain evolution, well, how does something that's never been seen, measured, or even known to exist as anything or than a theory, be evidence?

Theories cannot be proved, genius. Evolution will never be proven because it is a theory. Gluons theoretically exist between quarks and are part of a wider evolutionary theory. Are you one of the people who doesn't believe in atomic structure at all?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Beefmoney
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 8:13 am

The only argument from athiests: creation isn't proven therefore it didn't happen.
 
777236ER
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 8:20 am

No, evolutionists have a theory that best fits the facts. Religion, by its very nature, was dreamed up by people scared about the universe around them and used it to explain how things they didn't understand work.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
ctbarnes
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 9:31 am

I acclaim you as the divine Milieu,
charged with creative power,
as the ocean stirred by the spirit,
as the clay molded and infused with life by the incarnate Word.


Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, SJ Hymn to Matter
(Jesuit scientist and archiologist who discovered, among other things, Peking Man)

"I am aware that the conclusions arrived at in this work will be
denounced by some as highly irreligious; but he who denounces them
is bound to shew why it is more irreligious to explain the origin of
man as a distinct species by descent from some lower form, through the
laws of variation and natural selection, than to explain the birth
of the individual through the laws of ordinary reproduction. The birth
both of the species and of the individual are equally parts of that
grand sequence of events, which our minds refuse to accept as the
result of blind chance. The understanding revolts at such a
conclusion, whether or not we are able to believe that every slight
variation of structure,- the union of each pair in marriage, the
dissemination of each seed,- and other such events, have all been
ordained for some special purpose."

Charles Darwin, The Decent of Man

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Guest

RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:43 am

Are you trying to say that a person named Isaiah didn't write the book of Isaiah? That Paul didn't write his 13 books in the New Testament? That Luke didn't write the gospel of Luke? Are you kidding me?

No i'm not kidding you, i'm saying exactly that. Can you please prove to me that they did indeed write those portions of the bible.

And if you don't think that it's possible to translate the Bible from Hebrew (the OT), and Greek (the NT) into English, and have it be accurate.......well...are you a scholar of languages? I bet not. You're just spouting off.

Again, can you present to me the original bible and prove to me that it has been correctly translated? You don't need to be a scholar of languages to understand the concept of chinese whispers. We only need to discuss the meaning of "jihad" to understand the concept of language interpretation and thus negate all clams that any ancient book is a direct word for word translation. They are slanted towards the understanding of the person doing the translation and thus the true meaning cannot be determined.

Beefmoney (making doubly sure the spelling is accurate)....

ADG: Evolution is NOT proven, you just like to say that it is to make people that are "on the fence" think so. Scientist are still very vauge on what they believe regarding evolution.

Actually the concept of evolution is well and truly proven, only the devoutly religious claim it is not. And given the choice of believing evolution occurs naturally (given the proof of evolution over the last 200 years even) and that a supreme being created us out of nothing, i'm pretty sure the weight of evidence is with the former rather than the latter.

Now, i'm not saying you should change any beliefs that you have, i'm simply explaining my beliefs and why I feel that way.

----Gradualism - Changes in the morphology of species are the result of gradual changes in the genomes of species. The apparent lack of gradualism in the fossil record is due to an incompleteness of the fossil record.

----Punctuated Equilibrium - Changes in morphology are due to species sorting following geographic isolation and major reductions in population numbers. The punctuated appearance of the fossil record is real.

If it was fact and proven, we would not have these scientist still debating how evolution occured.


Wouldn't we? We have a group of scientists who you have not listed, those who want to disprove evolution and thus keep their religion alive. When there are varying opinions you will have varying scientific findings. A walk through the museum of Sydney proves very enlightening when you look at the evolution of the species of the past and then look at how/why our ancestors looked different to us.

I'm over a foot taller than my great grandfather, how about you?

Charles,

Conversely, the only argument from the Evolutionists is: God isn't proven therefore He didn't happen.

Incorrect. Evolutionists have a lot of evidence other than that, we have various fossils, and bodies (and parts thereof) found and dated to indicate age that can be used as part of the theory of evolution. A lot of evidence has been hidden (destroyed?) in the past as well, assumptions can be made as to why that is.

Has it occurred to anyone that there may be room for both points of view in this debate? We seem to go in circles spouting the same tired old rhetoric reminiscent of the Scopes Monkey Trial. Both Evolutionary theory and theology have evolved (no pun intended) significantly since then. Is it possible the debate could progress forward to engage this?

Sure .. isn't that what we're doing in a roundable (and human) way?

I'm going to answer the evolution post, but i'll need to be at home near my information to do so (so stand by....).

 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 12:03 pm

Guess what? Peking Man was supposedly 500,000 years old, but all evidence of the "find" has disappeared and cannot be examined today.........hmmm.

ADG, it's called faith, either you have it or you don't. I suppose you don't think that some old Greek guys named Plutarch and Hypatia and Socrates ever wrote any books either?

And is it not suspicious to any resonable, thinking person, that if there's no sign of gradualism in the fossile "layers," then perhaps it's a false theory?

777236ER, if you bestow upon me the title of genius, which I do not deserve, so will I give you the same courtesy. Genius, where do you think we get scientific laws? They're just theories that have some proof going for them, and that no one's disproven. Gluons have none of that. At least we know that quarks really do exist.

 
We're Nuts
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 1:16 pm

The question is whether you are content to chalk all of life's mysteries up to "god", or if you have the drive and determination to actually find out what is going on. Case in point, a couple thousand years ago, the sun rising every morning was proof of a devine power. Nowadays, we call that power "gravity". Simple as that.
Dear moderators: No.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 1:16 pm

MD-90, you are REALLY out there in your beliefs. I will defend you to the grave your right to have them, but I certianly can critisize them and disagree with them.

I have a question: why do you REALLY care how man got to where he is today? Why is it so important to you to PROVE to us that Creationism is the ONLY way man got here. I don't believe that. Is it so that you, and zealots like you on the right can prove to everyone how much smarter you are then the rest of us?

I personally believe that God did create man; but if you look at the different looks of man around the world, I also believe that man also developed from other species as well. If we all came from just one source, I think we'd look pretty much the same, but we don't, do we? We have different colors, different facial looks, different body types. Maybe God did create us, but maybe, somewhere along the line, other men developed from evolution.

And I wish the right wing in this country would stop shoving the idea down our publics schools that evolution not be taught in schools, and that Creationism be given equal footing. Leave that to your churches. That happened in Kansas a few years back, and it so pissed off the people in that state, they threw those right-wing nuts on the State School Board out of office, and rightly so.

Creationism, in my view, belongs in the churches; evolution belongs in the science classes at school. If you don't like your kids learning about evolution, send them to a religious school that teaches the latter.
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 2:03 pm

ADG,

My statement regarding evolutionists was supposed to be more sarcastic than factual. Sorry if you misconstrued.

My point was supposed to be that with research done in evolution over the 150 years, this does not, and nor should it, disprove or somehow attempt to debunk the fact that God is indeed at work in our universe.

The creation stories in the book of Genesis are just that-stories. They are an attempt by the Jewish people to explain the creation of the world and are actually based on Babylonian myth. They are not meant to be taken as literal fact.

In other words, why we were created is just as important as how. The bible does an excellent job of explaining the former, whereas evolutionary theory is the way to understand the latter.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 3:53 pm

I think you have to keep an open mind about the Bible and not take everything you read in it literally as some people do. Science says that the universe was created in a BIG BANG explosion and there is sufficient evidence out there to support this i.e cosmic background radiation, expansion of the universe etc. The only thing they are unsure about was exactly WHEN the universe was created- anywhere between 10 billion-17 billion years ago. Our Earth is itself about 4 billion years old. As to the origin of life on Earth perhaps we hitched a ride on a comet? Perhaps life didn't even originate on this planet it just evolved over time from organisms dilvered via comets? One thing which is hard to explain however is what actually caused the BIG BANG- was it GOD?
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 4:04 pm

I think if we do find any other kind of life on other planets then this will really help the Evolution theory out. If we find say organisms of some kind on Jupiter's moon Europa then this proves that given the right set of circumstances life will flourish. Also given billions and billions of years the universe can literally make itself. You start of with Hydrogen atoms which then form Hydrogen clouds which then form Nebulae which then form stars and eventually planets/comets/asteroids all form. The only thing that determines whether a particular planet has life or not is 1)the planet's position relative to its star(The Earth is in the perfect condition at 93 million miles- any closer=too hot/ any further= too cold)and 2)water- almost all life requires water of some kind
 
paulc
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:42 pm

RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 4:43 pm

The world would be a lot more peaceful if religion did not exist.

English First, British Second, european Never!
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 5:33 pm

I'm curious as to why all those animals on the ark (including the humans, I suppose) didn't come down with some virus of some sort (assuming that all the gazillion viruses and bacteria were also created by God). Can someone tell me why, if humans can fall critically sick on a big, ugly Disney Cruise Ship, they wouldn't fall sick on a big, ugly Ark? Perhaps, its the food on Disney Cruise Ships. I've heard it sucks. I bet God would have had really good food on the Ark. Guess, thats how Sabre toothed tigers got extinct. They must have been pretty yummy. Or else a royal pain in the you-know-where. At some point, Noah must have said...these big pussycats just aint worth it, and tossed them overboard. And we all know that cats just hate getting wet !

Getting back to those pesky bugs like skeeters. Didn't they bite folks on the ark? Or did God create skeeters after all that messy Ark stuff was over. I bet God created them because Tom Delay, that bug exterminator, prayed really hard to God one day and said "God, if you create bugs, then I can start a business, and then I will do your good word, like exterminate homos and get even with those uppitty black folk."

And why aren't there are any more flying nuns? And why aren't there any women authors of the Bible? Ooops . . . sorry. They were all barefoot, pregnant, baking bread and cleaning the loos for the likes of Paul and Matthew and Ezra and Amos.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Guest

RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 6:29 pm

Lucy is the oldest human known, right? She's supposedly 2.9 million years old. Well, Richard Leakey found a normal human skull buried under rock dated as being 212 million years old.

1.8 million years old actually. A far cry short of your claimed 212 million years and it wasn't a "normal human skull". It's younger than Lucy.

Do you know how human embryos supposedly have gill slits? And that this alledgedly proves that we evolved from fish? Sure...except that Sir Earnest Haeckel made up those drawings in 1869, and they were proven wrong in 1874. The supposed gills are really folds of skin that grow into bones in the ear and glands in the throat.

I'd not heard that from any reputable source. Sounds like some myth used to attempt to debunk the theory of evolution.

Piltdown Man - turns out the jawbone belonged to a modern ape

There will always be fraudsters in the world, but one doesn't debunk a whole theory.

Neanderthal - At the 1958 International Congress of Zoology, Dr. A. J. E. Cave said that his examination of the famous skeleton found in France over 50 years ago was an old man who suffered severely from arthiritis.

It's pretty well accepted now that Neanderthal man isn't one of our ancestors. Like all animals man appears to have evolved differently in the different continents, hence we all look different. However, neanderthal man appears to have become extinct.

Interesting, a search of the net indicates that when neanderthal man was first found he was felt to have been a deformed man, only this was proven to be incorrect later on, and that there are MANY skeletons from this era that have already been found.

Cro-Magon - one of the earliest and best established fossils is equal in physique and brain capacity to modern man, so what's the difference?

There was a fair amount of difference actually, go have a look.

Homo Sapiens - this genius thinks we have monkeys back in the family tree

Seems that we do, do you have a problem with that?

Go and have a read about it on the net, it's interesting to read even if you don't believe it.



VH-ADG
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 6:42 pm

Alright, one last thing before I bow out of this debate. Paulc, I honestly have to disagree with you. The world would be much worse without Christianity.

Jaysit, you don't know much about the history of the Middle Eastern world. Women were kept barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen. It was unbelievable at that time to have people like Ruth, who was a heroine. Jesus paid unbelievable (at the time) respect to women like Mary and Martha. Why there aren't any woman authors of the Bible? I don't know for sure, but perhaps God felt that writing the books was a man's job? I don't mean to sound sexist, but I wonder if that's true. At any rate, God gives us a glorious description of what a woman should be:

Epilogue: The Wife of Noble Character, from Proverbs 31:10-31

10 A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her servant girls.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 "Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all."
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31 Give her the reward she has earned,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

That doesn't sound to me like the woman you're describing. Just because you disagree with how an ancient culture treated its women doesn't give you the right to put them down. You ought to be thankful that it is Helleno-Christian (Western) civilization that gives women their full rights in society.
 
jwenting
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Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: The Bible

Mon Dec 09, 2002 6:58 pm

Interestingly also, the deformed skeleton found to be suffering from arthritis before death was found in France. The original Neanderthal Man was found in Germany (in the Neanderthal, which in English translates as Neander river valley), hundreds of kilometers away.
Apart from the arthritis in the old man, the remains were quite similar but quite dissimilar from those of modern Man.

As to creationism, it does not explain dinosaurs or other extinct species. Nor does it explain why mankind is more than a few thousand years old (as historians have calculated the creation of the world based on biblical texts to be only about 7000 years ago, and human remains have now been dated to millions of years ago).
You could always state that God has a sense of humour and put those fossil bones in the earth to occupy archeologists, but where in the Bible (which supposedly contains all there is to know according to itself) does it say so?
I wish I were flying

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