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Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:34 am

Today is the 61st anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Let us always remember the brave solders who lost their lives fighting for their country on this tragic day.



We'll never forget!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:37 am

The day that was the beginning of the end of the Axis in World War II. It was day that should have been passed down in American history more than it currently is.

And remember, THIS is the event that culminated with the American bombs being dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was a war that Japan started, but could not finish.

May there never be another Pearl Harbor again. History tells us my wish will probably not come true, sadly.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 7:11 am

Another Pearl Harbour could trigger a nuclear war.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
Guest

RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 7:19 am

Reading this post gave me the chills...I went to visit the USS Arizona this past summer.

My generation's Pearl Harbor, which obviousy was September 11, will be rememebered forever as the "Attack on America." Pearl Harbor was the same exact thing, the only difference is that it happened way out in Hawaii, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and not in the middle of New York City.

No matter where each happened, they were both horrible attacks on our great nation. Pearl Harbor was actually worse, cause over 3,000 people died, compared to around 2,700 for 9/11. It should be given the same attention as September 11 has gotten. I will be sickened if 61 years from now, people forget 9/11.

U N I T E D WE STAND
 
Arrow
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 7:31 am

Remember Pearl Harbour by all means, and don't ever forget the sacrifices made by American soldiers and sailors on that day. Same applies to 9/11.

But also don't forget that by Dec. 7, 1941, World War Two was already more than two years old, and thousands of Brits, Australians, Kiwis, Canadians, Frenchmen, Russians and many other nationalities had already paid the ultimate price -- not to mention the tens of thousands of civilians.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
atct
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 1:47 pm

that right, we shoudl remember our vets and Pearl Harbor. My own grandfather (now departed) and many other relatives served in WW2 and we should remember them after they are gone. I am too appalled that my math teacher, when asked what December 7th meant, she went "Saturday?" Anywho, to all veterans of WW2 (Brits, Canucks, Russians, Chinese, Aussies, NZ'ers, Singaporean's, Indian's, American's, French, Italian, and Underground Party's) thank you for your service, may gos bless you for long to come.

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
b757300
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 2:21 pm

Anyone who goes around questioning Hiroshima should remember that it was Japan who, without a declaration of war, attacked the American fleet on a Sunday morning. WWII for the United States was started by Japan on December 7th, 1941. The United States brought it to an end in August, 1945.

"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Guest

RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 3:48 pm

How many of you know that Pearl Harbour was caused as a result of actions by none other than Pan American World Airways in the Pacific?
 
L-188
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 3:54 pm

Ok. Aviatsiya...

Please go ahead and explain how Juan Trippe got the US into WWII.

I was under the distinct impression that it was because the US was against Japans expansionist goals in the South Pacific to support a resource deficient chain of home islands.

The fact that they where a practical military state at that point, with a militaristic state sponsored religion (Shinto) didn't help matters either.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 3:56 pm

Don't ruin my thread Aviatsiya by posting blatant flamebait. This is a remembrance thread of the 3,000 men and women that died this tragic day 61 years ago.
 
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 3:58 pm

Oh by the way, please keep in mind that many US Merchant Marines had allready been killed running supplies to Great Britian. Also there where Americans that where also serving in the RAF at that time and quite a number where up in Canada training for RAF service. They mostly went back to the US and joined up with the various US services.

This was all in the two years prior to Pearl.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
b757300
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 3:59 pm

I'd suggest deletion on Aviatsiya's thread but we all know that all but one of the mods love that kind of dribble. Classic attempt by an America hater to drag a thread into the sewer.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Guest

RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 4:16 pm

National_757

It wasn't flamebait, but a question.

L-188

I don't have the book handy at the moment (it is in a box somewhere in my shed and will try to dig it out later). But the book is a historical piece on British Commonwealth Pacific Airways, and it went into the subject of the Americans and British nearly coming to blows over the possession of Canton Island. Pan Am, with the full military support of America, set up a base on the otherwise sparse atoll. This was done to support Pan Am flights throughout the South Pacific. But from: http://www.pacificwrecks.com/provinces/kiribati_canton.html

Canton Island is the largest and most northern of the Phoenix Group. The island is an atoll, made up of a low, narrow rim of land surrounding a large shallow lagoon. It is 4.1/2 miles wide on the west, from which it narrows to the southeast point, which is nine miles distant from the northwest point. Americans and British occupied the island in two seporate camps. On March 3, 1938 President Franklin D. Roosevelt placed Canton and Enderbury under jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior. In April 1939, when Canton and Enderbury were placed under joint British and American control for fifty years, and "thereafter until such time as it may be modified or terminated by mutual consent". During 1938 and 1939 Pan American Airways laid out and developed an extensive airport, deepened and cleared the lagoon, and initiated flights to New Zealand using Canton as one of the ports of call

Of course, that isn't the full history of Canton Island, but the Americans later set up naval facilities on Canton, and with those facilities could send their ships to other parts of the Pacific. Of course the Japanese were basically pissed with all of this, and decided to take out the port which supplied Canton and other Pacific islands, that being Pearl Harbour.

But it is my understanding that it was Canton Island which was the "straw that broke the camels back". If Trippe never did set up that base on Canton Island, then history probably would have been very very different than what was experienced during the 1940s.

Anyway, I will make every attempt to find this book and paraphrase what was written in it for you here.
 
NWA742
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 4:26 pm

I will also suggest deletion of Aviatsiyas flamebait.

I think all the mods would agree that it is a 100% pure flamebait, except one, and that one seems to support the anti-American posts made by these individuals who have no goddamn clue as to what they are talking about.

We all know who that one is.

As for the topic itself,

I hung out my flag this morning and thought about Pearl Harbor, remembering those who lost their lives.

That was a day that will live in infamy forever, as with 9/11.

 Sad



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Guest

RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 4:43 pm

Note to the mods:

Please do delete my "flatant flamebait". It seems that some people only remember history and don't want to discuss facts surrounding history. It also seems that some people think those facts are anti-American, which I am at a loss to understand, because facts are facts. They aren't anti-this or anti-that. I never knew this fact about Pan Am and the Japanese thoughts on the Pan Am base on Canton Island. It wasn't something which we were taught in history at school (and I am sure it is something which was also wasn't taught in the schools of people accusing me of flamebait). It wasn't until I read the book, and did some research afterwards, that I became fully aware of these facts. In future I will be sure to post only "Me too" in response to all threads; god help us all if we can get some interesting discussion on these forums, which are not written in a anti-this or anti-what way.

To all other forum members

I sincerely apologise for my attempt to bring some simple discussion of history into these forums. You will not see me do such a thing again in future  Insane
 
9V-SVE
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:01 pm

"December 7, 1941...a day that will live in infamy....the United States of America was at peace with the Empire of Japan...............................the United States of America...on all naval and army forces, will declare war on the Empire of Japan." -Franklin Delano Roosevelt.  Sad

PS. I'm not sure if i got the speech correct...
 
b757300
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:08 pm

Real close. Here is the full speech if you'd like to read it. Following the speech, the United States officially declares war on Japan. We didn’t declare war on Germany until after Germany declared war on us shortly afterwards.

"Yesterday, December 7, 1941 - a date which will live in infamy - the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with that nation and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its Government and its Emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific. Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in Oahu, the Japanese Ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to the Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. While this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time the Japanese Government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian Islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. Very many American lives have been lost. In addition American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

Yesterday the Japanese Government also launched an attack against Malaya. Last night Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong. Last night Japanese forces attacked Guam. Last night Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands. Last night the Japanese attacked Wake Island. This morning the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

Japan has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.

As Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy, I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense.

Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us. No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.

I believe I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost but will make very certain that this form of treachery shall never endanger us again.

Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger.

With confidence in our armed forces - with the unbounded determination of our people - we will gain the inevitable triumph - so help us God.

I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December seventh, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire."
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
BO__einG
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 6:39 pm

I am a Canadian who is fasinated by the Pearl Harbor Events.
I am glad that nothing like this has happened here in Canada.
Canada's "Pearl Harbour" would be the June 6,1944 DDAY landings on the beaches of Normandy, I belive Juneau beach was the Canadian one where thousands were slaughtered by Hitler's Atlantic Wall Forces in a matter of hours.
Rememberance day is the day to honor fellow Canadians and other brave soldiers of the world Including Americans who died in times of conflict.

Regarding with PHarbor, to my understanding at that time US intel got word that Japanese forces were on the move to Hawaii. They then tried to send a message to Hawaii warning them but by the time Hawaii got it, it was about an hour past after the Japanese Invaded.

Also is it true that the First American Casualties were not from the Attacks on the ships, but pilots of a B17 that were doing delivery flights to PH during that day? Japanese shot them down obviously a few miles off Ohau.

These documentarys about the Dec 7 events are always compelling and head shaking when I watch it. The fireball of the Arizona for one is just unbelivable as 1102 died with the ship from one bomb dropped by a Zero.

Are there other ship memorials at Pearl Harbor other than the Famous Arizona?

By the way, on spaceimaging website there is a sat picture of Pharbor today.
The Arizona memorial is clearly seen as well as some other big navy ship sitting behind it. BB63? The modern fleets are sitting aross the island Ford.
Anyone interested in a 1280x1024 resolution of this can contact me via email.
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KLAX
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 6:45 pm

ROFL. So Pearl Harbor is the result of Pan American World Airways using some dinky little atoll in the middle of the Pacific Ocean to fly to NZ.
I learn great stuff everyday...  Insane

-Clovis
 
Guest

RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 7:33 pm

It is inappropriate to hijack a thread such as this for political gain. To the Americans this is a day of remembrance for those lost at Pearl Harbour. If you can't respect the users above (and their sometimes silly statements), can you at least respect the war dead?

In Australia on ANZAC day we stand at the Cenetaphs at 5am in the morning and we honour our war dead ..

They shall not grow old, as we are left to grow old.
Age shall not weary them, not the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning.
We will remember them.


I offer this poem for those who gave their lives in Pearl Harbour on 7th December 61 years ago.

They are American heros, please don't dishonour them during this thread, we expect respect of others during our times of remembrance, the least we can do is offer the same in return.




VH-ADG
 
L-188
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 8:26 pm

Aviatsya, I don't really want to comment on that since I haven't read the book but.....

Pan Am had many bases on various islands and the US military had many bases in the Pacific too, Including Wake Island another Pan Am base and the major presence in the Philippines. And Britain also had her colonies in China and Malaysia and the French her colonies in Vietnam. All of which Japan had to move out of the way to expand her industrial base.

To say at face value that this island was the reason behind the war really does strike me as being somewhat oversimplified and bordering on revisionist history.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
KLAX
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 11:15 pm

I was actually about to start a thread about this last night. I offer my respect and rememberance to all that lost their lives that day.

-Clovis
 
L-188
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Sun Dec 08, 2002 11:29 pm

You know the more I think of it, I know who is to blame for that day.

The English!

If they hadn't bombed Toranto, Italy, the Japanese would never had thought an attack in a shallow water with torpedos would have been possible.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Mon Dec 09, 2002 4:23 am

ADG, that's a beautiful little poem. I think it sums up the young men who died that morning very well. Well done.

Avitsiya, a little history lesson for you: in late 1940, I believe, the United States cut off supplies of oil and other potential war materials to Japan after they invaded French Indo-China, which helped supply Japan's war machine, which had already invaded China and Korea.

The United States protested the invasion of what we know now as Southeast Asia, and threatened further action to curb Japan's desire to expand it's empire. Japan felt that the only way to protect their fledgling empire was to destroy the only entity that stood in the way of that goal-the American Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor. Their reasoning was if they could destroy the fleet-most notably the American aircraft carriers, the battleships, all their drydocks and fuel supplies, the Americans would quickly have to sue for peace, and Japan's new empire would be a fait accompli.

It had nothing to do with some little Atoll that Pan Am wanted to fly to. You say you wanted facts-well, the facts are what I just laid out, and are backed by 60 years of history and study. You dishonor the deaths of those at Pearl Harbor-indeed, all Americans and Allied soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines, who died in the 3 and 1/2 years of fighting in the Pacific by saying such a shamless thing.
 
b757300
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Mon Dec 09, 2002 4:44 am

Japan sealed it fate when it attacked Pearl Harbor. While it was a brilliant tactical victory, it was a strategic disaster. Any chance of a negotiated settlement went out the window. The war in the Pacific became war to the death.
Yamamoto knew that Japan had a very small window of opportunity after Pearl Harbor. He predicted 6 months. Almost 7 months later, the Japanese fleet suffers a disaster it cannot recover from, the lose of four aircraft carriers at Midway. Japan could not hope to win a war of attrition against the United States. Their only hope was to cripple the American fleet so badly that they would have time to consolidate their conquests and form a defensive perimeter before the United States could go on the offensive.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Guest

RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Mon Dec 09, 2002 5:48 am

Pearl Harbour is one place in America that I have yet to see ... it's a place I really want to see but wonder if it will be far to sad a place to vist. Like walking through the rows and rows and rows of graves in France, or the Menin Gate ...

My uncle has walked the path taken by the diggers in ANZAC cove, he says it's something he had to do but couldn't do again. Hopefully before I die I will be able to spend one 25th April on that beach, to see the run rise and to listen to that peom at the place the legend was created.

It must be exactly the same for any Patriotic American to walk past the memorials at Pearl Harbour.

Whilst I do not share your views on the War Alpha1, I do respect and thank every American soldier that died during the War as I do every other allied soldier who gave their life (or their youth) to the war effort.



VH-ADG
 
L-188
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:41 pm

The Arizona didn't wig me out quite as bad as visiting Punchbowl.

I get spooked around graveyards.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:42 pm

So.

Was the rape of Nanking Pan Am's fault?

How about the incineration of a large chunk of Shanghai from the air?
The Mongolian occupation?
The sack of Manila?
Or howabout the beheading of Dutch employees captured at Balikpaipan? Book smart, almost nerdish young engineers, who destroyed their well caps to keep Japan from getting (easily, anyway) the single largest oil refinery in the Pacific..(this event is truly something that got lost in history, and yet had the Japanese captured the Royal Dutch/Shell facility there unmolested, they would have had instantly available the fuel resources to capture Australia, New Zealand...and possibly conduct an aggressive action against the US West Coast.)

At any rate, Juan Trippe was behind all of this? Rubbish.

Thank you for your post Aviatsa, and thanks that it wasn't deleted. It truly made me ponder your "facts"....and dismiss them outright. Japan under Tojo was an aggressor nation the likes of which the world has rarely seen. His military had grown so large and consuming, it required self-perpetuation with constant offensives lest it sit idle and melt away. Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands were dead at their hands long before any of the aircraft sitting on thedecks of the Japanese Fleet ever "climbed Mount Niitaka".

Pearl Harbor was a tragic blow to the United States. Forgo the godawful movie, and read a bit on the subject...and learn of the hundreds of young men , most barely 21 years old, horribly burned in the inferno of the Arizona, mercilessly machine gunned on the lawn of the hospital as they awaited treatment...the strafing runs down the main streets of Honolulu...until 9/11, the only large American city ever to be attacked from the air. And the stomach churning taps of the young sailorstrapped in the overturned Oklahoma, who one by one slowly died in the blackness of the submerged hull.

But Pearl Harbor was also what Isoruku Yamamoto knew it would be...the awakening of the benign giant. From December 7th, Imperial Japan would enjoy only 100 days of victory after victory. Then the tide would turn.

Pearl Harbor was the first time ever our nation found out how powerful we are...when we are united.
 
L-188
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:46 pm

Heavymetal, I just want to specify that you are talking that recently released Chick Flick.........




Not the classic film, TORA TORA TORA, which is probably one of the most historically accurate films ever made.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
N79969
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:35 am

It is important to reflect on the events of that day. I think Heavymetal captured the sentiments of most Americans regarding the attack and the absolute nonsense posted by Aviatsiya.

I would also add the vivesections of captured Chinese soldiers conducted by the Japanese army for "medical research" to Heavymetal's list. For those not familiar with the term, a vivesection is the dissection of a living person. The Japanese did not give anaesthetics.
 
swissgabe
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:01 am

Aviatsiya, never mind, I will forgive you that time  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

No doubt Japan made errors during that time. Not only Pearl Harbor and other places in the pacific, also Korea, China and other parts in Asia.

It is always nice to remember 3'000 soldiers who died because of an enemy aggression. I really wonder if people also care about hundred thousands of civilians who let their life in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. It is really that easy to say that thousand of people have been saved just because hundred thousands had to die. That's what you call war.

I really hope Japan learned it's lesson. Others will still play around with their nukes and think it will be funny. I don't know if it's fun or not that the only nation ever used a nuclear bomb tries to forbid other states to own one. Ganbare Nihon.
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
swissgabe
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:03 am

I nearly forgot. In order to avoid any misunderstandings. I'm always sorry for people who have to die. Doesn't matter if American, Japanese, Europeans, Africans, Asians, Arabs and so on ...
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
N79969
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:10 am

Japan's textbooks mention almost nothing about their own agression but go on and on about their own suffering. Japan's youth are blissfully ignorant of their country's wartime past. It's a disgrace that they have not followed Germany's lead and learned from their history.
 
tbar220
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:13 am

Pearl Harbor was a bad day in American history. Many young mean died needlessly that day, and its quite humbling to walk on the Arizona memorial.

On another note, apparently its ok for Aviatsiya to dishonor those who died on that day. The mod's wanted constructive criticism from now on? Here's mine. Aviatsiya's post had no fact, was disrespectful to American dead, and could be construed as flaimbait. I see it is a violation of the rules, and hope that it will be deleted.

I hope my constructive criticism is read.
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Arrow
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:28 am

At the risk of opening myself up to a blistering broadside, I'm going to come to Aviatsya's defense. I didn't see his Pan-Am post as anti-American -- he was just filing an interesting sidenote to history. I had no idea the Brits and Americans were running a little airport-cum-naval base on that atol. The Japanese behaviour in the 30s was atrocious, but it's easy to see how they would see that, along with all the other British/American occupations in Asia, as a threat to their own plans for an Asian empire. It isn't an issue of right or wrong -- it's geopolitics circa 1930s. Maybe his conclusion (history would have been different) was a stretch, but so what? How do you get anti-American out of that?

You guys need to do a hell of a lot more reading of history and spend a lot less time watching Hollywood's version of events. World events are never as simple as that, and as more and more secret files get declassified, our understand of all the pieces that came into play before and during WW2 will get better and better. Remember how Admiral Kimmel got wrongly blamed, and relieved of his command, for unpreparedness at Pearl Harbour? Remember how long it took his family to ultimately clear his name? Have you ever read any serious history on Douglas MacArthur's role in the early days and weeks of the Pacific war? If not, you're in for a nasty shock. He apparently spent a great deal of time reading his Bible.

Exploring the reality of that conflict, and all the events that led up to it, doesn't dishonour the memory of all the soldiers, sailors, airmen and civilians who died. Covering it up would. And that would be anti-American, because in the final analysis, preserving freedom and democracy is what the war was all about, isn't it?

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:33 am

It should be pointed out that Pearl Harbor was a tactically even day for the Japanese military.

In their glee at pumping bomb after bomb into the US Pacific fleet (minus the carriers...a fatal miscalculation)....and in their bizzarre need to bomb and straf the civillians in Honolulu, the Japanese pilots flew away having made a disasterous error. Sure, behind them they left death, destruction and shattered battleships....

But they also left a mind-bogglingly untouched tank farm just to the northwest of Pearl Habor holding millions of gallons of critical aviation and bunker fuel. Had that vital strategic asset been torched (and how EASY would it have been? Literally a few machine gun rounds), it would have taken 6 months minimum for the US military in the Pacific to be resupplied with fuel. As it is, they did it in two.

The whole purpose of the attack on Pearl Harbor was a sucker punch to the only military capable of challenging their dreams of a Japanese Empire stretching from Korea to Indonesia. Their failure at maximizing the effect of the Pearl Harbor attack cost the Japanese tacticians their sick dreams.

One more note: Aviatsya, I don't think your post was "anti-American" per se....I just think you're mistakenly blaming the entire Pacific War on one miniscule territorial issue. Also, read a little bit about how President Roosevelt played a masterful guessing game with the Japanese, territories, embargos, etc. Because in July 1941, the reigning thought in the Imperial High Command was to send their war machine west....not south. Many Japanese generals believed the time was perfect to help themselves to a third or half of the Soviet Union, to stab westward across Siberia and link up with their German brethren who (at the time) looked like they had Russia as far west as the Caspian all but locked up.

FDR's ambiguity and hot/cold threats to Japan kept them guessing, and made them realize that to fuel their war machine, they needed to head south to the Ducth East Indies.
 
swissgabe
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:38 am

N79969. Do you really understand Japanese culture? Do you really understand another culture than your own. Do you really understand a culture at all?

If you really would know how Japan and the Japanese suffered after being hit by two nuclear bombs and hundred thousands of deaths (!!!) you would bring a little big more respect for them. The way you talk 3'000 US soldiers seem to be more worth than 250'000 to 300'000 "Japs" (mostly civilians) for you. Japan learned well in WWII and no other nation would be there where Japan is now after suffering that what happened to them after WWII (remember, I didn't say they didn't make any errors during WWII).

So much about Japanese culture. N79969, where is in your opinion the difference between German and Japan's youth?
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
N79969
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:14 am

Swissgabe,

I lived in rural Fukuoka prefecture for two years, passed the Japanese language proficiency exam, and was a teacher in a Japanese public school for two years. I have the full set of middle school social studies textbook on my bookshelf at home.

I know my town in Japan held a service each about how much they suffered during the war because the onigiri had to be made with rice substitute and how terrible that was. In my two years, there was never a peep about the rape and murder in Korea, China, and elsewhere. The textbooks contain only fleeting references to Pearl Harbor and China but go on and on about the atomic bombs. The official version of the WWII history from Monbusho is that Japan was the victim of WWII. This does not pass the laugh test. This probably explains why the Japanese are still deeply hated by many in China and Korea.

Basically Japanese kids are taught the the Japanese army might have, kind of, did a couple of bad things in China, Korea, and Hawaii and they got nuked for it. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did suffer tremendously and that is tragic. What would have been more tragic would have been the war of attrition that would have been fought had the US actually been forced to invade the islands to get Japan to surrender. The estimate of US casuaties was 1 million and the Japanese casulties would have exceeded that figure easily.

Why not ask the people in Okinawa what they think of the Japanese wartime propaganda. The Okinawans were told that Americans were bloodthirsty monsters. The Japanese government filled them with so much fear that they threw their children off cliffs and then followed them just to avoid Americans. Okinawans remain bitter to this day about the lies from Tokyo.

It is only now that Japan is starting to slowly acknowledge its past. And it is actually a grass-roots movement and not something from the government.

Germans since WWII have been taught about their wartime past including genocide and that nation is contrite about its past. The same is not true for Japan.

You confuse your fetish for Asian things for an understanding of Asian culture and history. Taking a few (or many) flights to Asia and dating Asian chicks does not make one an authority on Asian culture. I do not claim to be an expert on Asian culture but I am certainly well-informed enough to call BS when I see it.

To answer your question I know quite a bit about Japan. O-mae wakarimasen ka? Verstehst du? Oh yes, ich kann ein bisschen Deutsch einverstanden auch. Anyongkaseyo. [That's Korean]
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:41 am

I am glad to see this thread.

I would also like to defend those who would like to add tidbits of history to our understanding. If PanAm's actions where one of the American actions that inflamed Japanese imperialism in addition to the US scrapmetal and oil embargo then it has a legitimate prupose in the discussion. No historian would discount the US oil embargo as a contributing factor in the Japanese desision to attack the US. PanAm's move could also be seen by the Japanese as further US encroachment into their empire, leading to the attack. I find that peice of trivial fascinating.

FYI. The first US casulties of WWII occured in April 1941 when the USS Rueben James was sunk near Iceland helping a British destroyer to prosecute a U-boat. FDR was sure that the sinking of the Rueben James would lead to US involvement, but somehow US popular sentiment was not enraged by it.

Honor our Greatest Generation.

My Grandfather served on destoyers protecting convoys to Murmansk and Arckangel. My other Grandfather had 5 tanks shot out from under him in North Africa, Sicily, and Italy. My Grandmother was a real "Rosie the Riviter" building the tail sections of Avengers and Hellcats at the GM factory in Baltimore.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:22 am

UALPHLCS,

The world owes your grandparents and their generation of Americans, Australians, British, Chinese, and the other allies a tremendous debt of gratitude. Millions of ordinary people did extraordinary things.

_______________________________________________________________

The problem with Aviatsiya's post is that it exaggerates the minutiae of history into something supposedly significant. Was it Pan Am's establishment of a technical airport in the Pacific that led to Pearl Harbor or was it Japan's ambition for an empire? Was it the last event or all the preceding dozens? The answer is pretty easy to surmise. I won't speculate on the motive behind such a post.

Swissgabe,

"The way you talk 3'000 US soldiers seem to be more worth than 250'000 to 300'000 "Japs" (mostly civilians) for you."

In reply 32, I wrote about textbooks. I do not appreciate your insinuation of racism.

 
GDB
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:19 am

Yes, the Japanese Imperial Navy was inspired by the attack by the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm (at night with biplane Swordfish carrier planes), on the Italian fleet at Toronto.
But technology, the aeroplane over the Battleship, made it the only option for a Japanese military hungry for conquest, with only the US Pacific Fleet in their way, the UK was way too tied down in Europe and North Africa to defend properly it's colonies in the Far East.

So a terrible event for the US, but the absolute end of US isolationism.
The USA was very fortunate to have such a wise leader in FDR, who did not merely strike back at Japan, but also had the vision to prosecute the war against the Axis so well, not only from a military standpoint.

I suspect that FDR was prepared to also commit fully to Europe, in spite of the events of Pearl Harbour, as he knew Hitler had to be stopped, had always probably known.
While the Japanese attack was a total shock, it gave him the mandate to also defeat Fascism.
That was not him being cynical, but now being able to do the right thing.
In a democracy, sometimes doing the right thing is not at first easy, but when you can do it with the mandate of the people, you're probably unbeatable.

Pearl Harbour was nothing less than the beginning of the end of the Axis plans for world domination.

I've not been to Hawaii, but I would like to see the Arizona.
Out of that tragic event, came the almost guaranteed survival of democracy.
For that reason alone, Pearl Harbour should be remembered, and if you want to see a Hollywood film about it, go with Tora! Tora! Tora!
 
KLAX
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:00 am

I have never been to a place on this earth so emotionally challenging as the US Armed Forces cemetary in Normandy France. Never have I felt so insignificant and so ignorant in the face of the ultimate sacriffice paid by so many young men that morning in June 44'.




I sat in the wet green grass amidst hundreds and thousands of white marble crosses that cold foggy, overcast morning and remembered.



Clovis
 
N79969
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:08 am

Nice post Clovis.

It is sad that WWII veterans are dying at the rate of 1,000 a day now.
 
KLAX
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:13 am

N79969, that is precisly why we must never forget!!  Crying

I know that at my age, 16 , I will never forget to pause on these dates and remember, and I wouldnt be able to live any other way. I have resolved to pause and take a moment on these dates my entire life, regardless of any situation. I know almost certainly that I will never become a true hero of the kind these men were.

-Clovis
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:36 am

Sometimes the smallest detail has great impact on history.

For the want of a curveball Fidel Castro was cut from the Washington Senators tryouts. What would the world be like had the coaching staff liked what they saw from the young Cuban pitcher? The fact that PanAm had a technical airport that the Japanese wanted or felt was a threat to the Empire IS signifigant if one is trying to figure out the underlying causes of war. I think this reason inadition to the others that are more well know show a pretty clear reason the US should have exspected war w/ the Japanese. After all Britain and Argentina went to war over islands of much less importance.

The tactics of the Pearl Harbor attack came from the British. The US Navy also ran exercises against Pearl Harbor using airpower that the Japanese took great interest in.

Once again its the ordinary sailors and soldiers who payed the price for thier superiors mistakes.

1) It was the informed opionion of naval experts that Pearl was too shallow for torpedos.
2) US intelligence was too slow in getting the word to Pearl that an attack was underway.
3) The famous radar foul up in which the incoming attack was assumed to be the expected B-17 force from the mainland.
4) The airplanes at Mitchum field where positioned for vigilance against sabotage and neatly set up for strafing by the Japanese.
5) US military arrogance that the Japanese wouldn't dare attack the most powerful navy in the Pacific.
6) US stategic policy favoring the battleship and battlefleet tactics of times past rather than the new weapons of Carriers and Submarines.

Never Again should be the US battle cry.
Never to repeat the mistakes of Pearl Harbor, sadly in some ways we already have.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
N79969
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:39 am

"I know almost certainly that I will never become a true hero of the kind these men were."

When many of the men who died at Pearl Harbor, Normandy, Iwo Jima, and elsewhere were 16, they probably did not know they would be called upon to peform heroic acts. I think remarkable thing about this generation of people is that they were ordinary but performed the extraordinary when they were called upon.
 
Rai
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:56 am

N79969: Outstanding post! In Korean, it's actually: Ahn-young-ge-ka-seo. Just curious, what languages do you speak? Seems like you speak English, German and Japanese and perhaps a bit of Korean.

Also, an interesting side-note. Okinawans are not really ethnically Japanese, but their own seperate ethnicity. They've never really gotten along with the Japanese.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:23 am

Well in Korean it's actually 안녕하세요?  Big grin
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
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RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:24 am

Not all of has have that software, Manni!  Big grin
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: Remember Pearl Harbor

Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:25 am

Not all of us have that software, Manni!  Big grin

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