MD-90
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Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:40 pm

from saintsalive.com

Winning the Cultural War' - Charlton Heston's Speech
to the Harvard Law School Forum, Feb 16, 1999


I remember my son when he was five, explaining to his kindergarten class what his father did for a living. "My Daddy," he said, "pretends to be people." There have been quite a few of them. Prophets from the Old and New Testaments, a couple of Christian saints, generals of various nationalities and different centuries, several kings, three American presidents, a French cardinal and two geniuses, including Michelangelo. If you want the ceiling repainted I'll do my best. There always seem to be a lot of different fellows up here. I'm never sure which one of them gets to talk. Right now, I guess I'm the guy. As I pondered our visit tonight it struck me: If my Creator gave me the gift to connect you with the hearts and minds of those great men, then I want to use that same gift now to reconnect you with your own sense of liberty of your own freedom of thought ... your own compass for what is right.

Dedicating the memorial at Gettysburg, Abraham Lincoln said of America,"We are now engaged in a great Civil War, testing whether this nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure." Those words are true again. I believe that we are again engaged in a great civil war, a cultural war that's about to hijack your birthright to think and say what resides in your heart. I fear you no longer trust the pulsing lifeblood of liberty inside you ... the stuff that made this country rise from wilderness into the miracle that it is. Let me back up.

About a year ago I became president of the National Rifle Association, which protects the right to keep and bear arms. I ran for office, I was elected, and now I serve ... I serve as a moving target for the media who've called me everything from "ridiculous" and "duped" to a "brain-injured, senile, crazy old man." I know ... I'm pretty old ... but I sure, Lord, ain't senile. As I have stood in the crosshairs of those who target Second Amendment freedoms, I've realized that firearms are not the only issue. No, it's much, much bigger than that. I've come to understand that a cultural war is raging across our land, in which, with Orwellian fervor, certain acceptable thoughts and speech are mandated.

For example, I marched for civil rights with Dr. King in 1963 - long before Hollywood found it fashionable. But when I told an audience last year that white pride is just as valid as black pride or red pride or anyone else's pride, they called me a racist. I've worked with brilliantly talented homosexuals all my life. But when I told an audience that gayrights should extend no further than your rights or my rights, I was called a homophobe. I served in World War II against the Axis powers. But during a speech, when I drew an analogy between singling out innocent Jews and singling out innocent gun owners, I was called an anti-Semite. Everyone I know knows I would never raise a closed fist against my country. But when I asked an audience to oppose this cultural persecution, I was compared to Timothy McVeigh. From Time magazine to friends and colleagues, they're essentially saying, "Chuck, how dare you speak your mind. You are using language not authorized for public consumption!" But I am not afraid. If Americans believed in political correctness, we'd still be King George's boys-subjects bound to the British crown.

In his book, "The End of Sanity," Martin Gross writes that "blatantly irrational behavior is rapidly being established as the norm in almost every area of human endeavor. There seem to be new customs, new rules, new anti-intellectual theories regularly foisted on us from every direction. Underneath, the nation is roiling. Americans know something without a name is undermining the nation, turning the mind mushy when it comes to separating truth from falsehood and right from wrong. And they don't like it." Let me read a few examples.

At Antioch college in Ohio, young men seeking intimacy with a coed must get verbal permission at each step of the process from kissing to petting to final copulation ... all clearly spelled out in a printed college directive.

In New Jersey, despite the death of several patients nationwide who had been infected by dentists who had concealed their AIDs -- the state commissioner announced that health providers who are HIV-positive "need not ... need not" ... tell their patients that they are infected. At William and Mary, students tried to change the name of the school team "The Tribe" because it was supposedly insulting to local Indians, only to learn that authentic Virginia chiefs truly like the name. In San Francisco, city fathers passed an ordinance protecting the rights of transvestites to cross-dress on the job, and for transsexuals to have separate toilet facilities while undergoing sex change surgery. In New York City, kids who don't speak a word of Spanish have been placed in bilingual classes to learn their three R's in Spanish solely because their last names sound Hispanic. At the University of Pennsylvania, in a state where thousands died at Gettysburg opposing slavery, the president of that college officially set up segregated dormitory space for black students. Yeah, I know ... that's out of bounds now.

Dr. King said "Negroes." Jimmy Baldwin and most of us on the March said "black." But it's a no-no now. For me, hyphenated identities are awkward ... particularly "Native-American." I'm a Native American, for God's sake. I also happen to be a blood-initiated brother of the Miniconjou Sioux. On my wife's side, my grandson is a thirteenth generation native American ... with a capital letter on "American."

Finally, just last month ... David Howard, head of the Washington D.C. Office of Public Advocate, used the word "niggardly" while talking to colleagues about budgetary matters. Of course, "niggardly" means stingy or scanty. But within days Howard was forced to publicly apologize and resign. As columnist Tony Snow wrote: "David Howard got fired because some people in public employ were morons who (a) didn't know the meaning of niggardly,(b) didn't know how to use a dictionary to discover the meaning, and (c) actually demanded that he apologize for their ignorance."

What does all of this mean? It means that telling us what to think has evolved into telling us what to say, so telling us what to do can't be far behind. Before you claim to be a champion of free thought, tell me: Why did political correctness originate on America's campuses? And why do you continue to tolerate it? Why do you, who're supposed to debate ideas, surrender to their suppression?

Let's be honest. Who here thinks your professors can say what they really believe? It scares me to death, and should scare you too, that the superstition of political correctness rules the halls of reason. You are the best and the brightest. You, here in the fertile cradle of American academia, here in the castle of learning on the Charles River, you are the cream. But I submit that you, and your counterparts across the land, are the most socially conformed and politically silenced generation since Concord Bridge. And as long as you validate that ... and abide it ... you are- by your grandfathers' standards-cowards.

Here's another example. Right now at more than one major university, Second Amendment scholars and researchers are being told to shut up about their findings or they'll lose their jobs. Why? Because their research findings would undermine big-city mayor's pending lawsuits that seek to extort hundreds of millions of dollars from firearm manufacturers. I don't care what you think about guns. But if you are not shocked at that, I am shocked at you. Who will guard the raw material of unfettered ideas, if not you? Who will defend the core value of academia, if you supposed soldiers of free thought and expression lay down your arms and plead, "Don't shoot me."

If you talk about race, it does not make you a racist. If you see distinctions between the genders, it does not make you a sexist. If you think critically about a denomination, it does not make you anti-religion. If you accept but don't celebrate homosexuality, it does not make you a homophobe. Don't let America's universities continue to serve as incubators for this rampant epidemic of new McCarthyism.

But what can you do? How can anyone prevail against such pervasive social subjugation? The answer's been here all along. I learned it 36 years ago, on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, DC, standing with Dr. Martin Luther King and two hundred thousand people. You simply ... disobey. Peaceably, yes. Respectfully, of course. Nonviolently, absolutely. But when told how to think or what to say or how to behave, we don't. We disobey social protocol that stifles and stigmatizes personal freedom. I learned the awesome power of disobedience from Dr. King ... who learned it from Gandhi, and Thoreau, and Jesus, and every other great men who led those in the right against those with the might. Disobedience is in our DNA. We feel innate kinship with that disobedient spirit that tossed tea into Boston Harbor, that sent Thoreau to jail, that refused to sit in the back of the bus, that protested a war in Vietnam. In that same spirit, I am asking you to disavow cultural correctness with massive disobedience of rogue authority, social directives and onerous laws that weaken personal freedom. But be careful ... it hurts. Disobedience demands that you put yourself at risk. Dr. King stood on lots of balconies. You must be willing to be humiliated ... to endure the modern-day equivalent of the police dogs at Montgomery and the water cannons at Selma. You must be willing to experience discomfort. I'm not complaining, but my own decades of social activism have taken their toll on me. Let me tell you a story.

A few years back I heard about a rapper named Ice-T who was selling a CD called "Cop Killer" celebrating ambushing and murdering police officers. It was being marketed by none other than Time/Warner, the biggest entertainment conglomerate in the world. Police across the country were outraged. Rightfully so-at least one had been murdered. But Time/Warner was stonewalling because the CD was a cash cow for them, and the media were tiptoeing around it because the rapper was black. I heard Time/Warner had a stockholders meeting scheduled in Beverly Hills. I owned some shares at the time, so I decided to attend. What I did there was against the advice of my family and colleagues. I asked for the floor. To a hushed room of a thousand average American stockholders, I simply read the full lyrics of "Cop Killer"- every vicious, vulgar, instructional word. "I GOT MY 12 GAUGE SAWED OFF. I GOT MY HEADLIGHTS TURNED OFF. I'M ABOUT TO BUST SOME SHOTS OFF. I'M ABOUT TO DUST SOME COPS OFF..."

It got worse, a lot worse. I won't read the rest of it to you. But trust me, the room was a sea of shocked, frozen, blanched faces. The Time/Warner executives squirmed in their chairs and stared at their shoes. They hated me for that. Then I delivered another volley of sick lyric brimming with racist filth, where Ice-T fantasizes about sodomizing two 12-year old nieces of Al and Tipper Gore. "SHE PUSHED HER BUTT AGAINST MY ...." Well, I won't do to you here what I did to them. Let's just say I left the room in echoing silence. When I read the lyrics to the waiting press corps, one of them said "We can't print that." "I know," I replied, "but Time/Warner's selling it."

Two months later, Time/Warner terminated Ice-T's contract. I'll never be offered another film by Warner's, or get a good review from Time magazine. But disobedience means you must be willing to act, not just talk.

When a mugger sues his elderly victim for defending herself ... jam the switchboard of the district attorney's office. When your university is pressured to lower standards until 80% of the students graduate with honors ... choke the halls of the board of regents. When an 8-year-old boy pecks a girl's cheek on the playground and gets hauled into court for sexual harassment ... march on that school and block its doorways. When someone you elected is seduced by political power and betrays you...petition them, oust them, banish them. When Time magazine's cover portrays millennium nuts as deranged, crazy Christians holding a cross as it did last month ... boycott their magazine and the products it advertises.

So that this nation may long endure, I urge you to follow in the hallowed footsteps of the great disobedience's of history that freed exiles, founded religions, defeated tyrants, and yes, in the hands of an aroused rabble in arms and a few great men, by God's grace, built this country. If Dr. King were here, I think he would agree.

Thank you.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:42 pm

Why post his speech here, MD90? After all, the old guy can't remember what the hell he has said anymore.  Big thumbs up

He's a washed-up, hack has-been actor, who wants to make America a more dangerous place. What a guy.
 
N202PA
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:00 pm

Excellent speech. In many ways, the direction this country's culture is taking is downright frightening. Certainly, we have more freedom to be who we are and express our ideas in some ways (ie, the Internet, more racial tolerance, etc.), but our society is becoming more restricted and intolerant in many other ways (ie, Political correctness, thought-monitoring by the Government and colleges/universities, etc.).
 
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yyz717
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:03 pm

Innocent Americans are dying because of misguided gun-lovers. It takes a year for as many Japanese to die from gunshot as it does Americans in one day.

The US gun-culture would be sad if it wasn't so frightening.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
MD-90
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:52 pm

The Japanese have a different culture than ours. And they don't have rappers like Ice-T selling vast amounts of CDs promoting killing cops, like Mr. Heston said. Perhaps something like that is why we have so many murders?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:55 pm

There's nothing more dangerous than a gun nut with Alzheimer's. What a combination.
 
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:01 pm

MD-90 wrote:

"And they don't have rappers like Ice-T selling vast amounts of CDs promoting killing cops, like Mr. Heston said. Perhaps something like that is why we have so many murders?"


Nope, most young people in Japan and Europe listen to the same music and watch the same movies as their US counterparts (the overwhelming majority of movies screened in Europe are American). While media violence does desentisize, this logic doesn't explan why Japan and Europe have far lower murder rates.
 
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:11 pm

I meant "desensitize."
 
Rai
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:11 pm

The Japanese have a different culture than ours. And they don't have rappers like Ice-T selling vast amounts of CDs promoting killing cops, like Mr. Heston said. Perhaps something like that is why we have so many murders?

Other reasons for more murders in the U.S. compared to Japan, but I'd be banned if I mentioned them...
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:31 pm

Trust me, the Japanese have more than enough home grown head-cases. Cop-killing rap songs, this is the latest reason the US has the highest murder rate ????

Why do you guys defend this crap. Mum and Dad have a fight ... instead of throwing the remote control they throw bullets. Some one rear ends you and gives you shit ... instead of fists it's guns !

This is why you have the highest murder rate in the world, too many guns that turn temporary disagreements into permanent tragedies. That's it !

PS Many threads have covered this topic, i.e. who cares what an actor/singer/poet has to say ? He may have been good on the screen but let's face it Charlie's no genius.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Rai
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:44 pm

This is why you have the highest murder rate in the world

I believe that title belongs to South Africa.
 
jcs17
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:08 pm

Why post his speech here, MD90? After all, the old guy can't remember what the hell he has said anymore.

There's nothing more dangerous than a gun nut with Alzheimer's. What a combination

Thats real respectful, Alpha 1. Nice job. I dont care if you agree with the guy or not, but have some respect. Real class act you are  Yeah sure



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
MD-90
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:28 pm

Pacificjourney, when was the last time you heard of mom and dad getting into a fight and instead of dad beating mom, he kills her with a gun? Get real...that hardly ever happens.

I like this story, actually:

Priceless senior moments

An elderly Florida lady did her shopping and, upon returning to her car, found four males in the act of leaving with her vehicle. She dropped her shopping bags and drew her handgun, proceeding to scream at them at the top of her voice," I have a gun and I know how to use it! Get out of the car, you degenerates."

The four men didn't wait for a second invitation, but got out and ran like mad, whereupon the lady, somewhat shaken, proceeded to load her shopping bags into the back of the car and got into the driver's seat. She was so shaken that she could not get her key into the ignition. She tried and tried and then it dawned on her why.

A few minutes later she found her own car parked four or five spaces down. She loaded her bags into her car and drove to the police station. The sergeant to whom she told the story nearly tore himself in two with laughter and pointed to the other end of the counter, where four pale white males were reporting a carjacking by a mad elderly woman described as white, less than 5' tall, glasses and curly white hair carrying a large handgun.

No charges were filed.
 
sccutler
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:43 pm

A common reaction of those who encounter well-reasoned and well-presented opinions which differ from their own views, is to deride and belittle the speaker, rather than to try to persuade their audience with an articulate, factually-supported argument.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:56 pm

MD-90 says

" ... when was the last time you heard of mom and dad getting into a fight and instead of dad beating mom, he kills her with a gun? Get real...that hardly ever happens."

What planet do you live on ?

Most murders in most countries are the result of domestic disputes, the people involved know each other well. Sorry to bust up fairy land but yes that means mummies and daddies as well.

Ask ANY cop if you don't believe me.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Guest

RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:24 pm

Anything Charlton Heston says I pay no attention to. Not since he spread lies and mistruths about the gun laws in my own country. Lies and mistruths which were printed in the American media. Lies and mistruths which were not obtained from official Australian sources.

Could there be a shift in the planetary planes? It seems that myself and Alpha 1 are agreeing on many things these days  Laugh out loud
 
KROC
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:29 pm

The Japanese have a different culture than ours. And they don't have rappers like Ice-T selling vast amounts of CDs promoting killing cops, like Mr. Heston said. Perhaps something like that is why we have so many murders?

MD-90. You're losing whatever credibility you have quickly. The gun problem and murder rate MUST be because kids are listening to music right? You're nothing more than the typical American trying to blame problems everywhere else but where you should. Listening to music does not lead kids to go out and start killing people. You need to hold the kid accountable first, or whoever has commited a murder, without trying to blame the media, music, movies, ect. You also need to step to the parents as well ,and find out what they have taught their kid about such issues. I was 8 years old and knew the difference between music and T.V. violence, and actual real violence. Why? Because my parents taught me. Stop trying to blame everything else, because if you want to do that, why not leave music alone, and start blaming organized religion. More people die from that everyday than music alone will ever be "responsible" for.

Remember, "Guns don't kill people. Dumb Mutha F**kers with guns kill people."
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:10 pm

Thats real respectful, Alpha 1. Nice job. I dont care if you agree with the guy or not, but have some respect.

That's the problem, Jcs: I do NOT respect this nut. I don't respect anyone who tries to flood the streets with firearms to protects the 2nd Amendment he and his minions have twisted to mean what it doesn't. There's nothing safe about having 100 million handguns on the streets, and crime and murder rates prove that.

I don't respect him for what he is now, and who he represents. He and the NRA are one of the most dangerous groups in the U.S. today. So don't tell me I HAVE to respect an idiot like him.

Pacificjourney, when was the last time you heard of mom and dad getting into a fight and instead of dad beating mom, he kills her with a gun? Get real...that hardly ever happens.

That's bullshit, MD90, and you know it. It happens all the time! I'll bet at least 2 to 3 times a MONTH, you hear a story like that in Northeast Ohio alone! A guy was arrested recently for just that act; this week, in Cleveland, a man trining to be a Brother in a Catholic Church has been arrested for shooting a Parish Priest http://www.cleveland.com/news/index.ssf?/news/more/ap/12priest09.html

It happens all the time, and to lie like that simply to push your agenda is ridiculous. In both the cases above-indeed, in most of these cases-the person doing the shooting had no record. They were, as the NRA likes to say (and it makes me want to puke) "law-abiding" citizens.

Now, tell me this: how often do you actually see a story of a homeowner, or a store owner pulling out his/her gun, and protecting their property from a burgler? What? Almost never? That's what I thought. Yet that's the line the NRA is constantly pulling-that these people need to DEFEND themselves. It doesn't work that way very often. It's another lie peddled by the gun nuts.

And KROC, can you get me a bumper sticker that says that?  Big thumbs up
 
heavymetal
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:23 pm

It was Pat Buchanan, Pat Robertson and the far right who declared "war" on their fellow citizens. This whiney lament by Heston just clarifies that he stands behind them.
 
KROC
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:40 pm

I would like to restate my above quote, before I send it off to be made into bumper stickers for Alpha 1.

"Pepole with guns don't kille people. Dumb mutha f**kers with guns kill people."

Check your mail box in 2-4 weeks Alpha 1.  Big grin
 
jaysit
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:10 pm

I'd like to see if Mr. Heston has the guts to spew these words written by his speechwriters in front of James and Sarah Brady. While the speech was entertaining stuff, albeit riddled with logical inconsistencies, not once has Mr. Heston ever presented a valid rationale for allowing the unfettered sales of automatic weapons.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
cfalk
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:39 pm

I'm rather amazed that nobody here got the whole point of what Heston was talking about. Everyone simply jumps on the gun issue - an easy target about which the speech hardly mentioned, and only as an example.

The point of the speech was that political correctness has become so accepted that any attempt at reasonable debate and a discussion of certain issues is exterminated (with extreme prejudice) by vilifying the one who takes an opposing view, instead of actually trying to meet debate with reason.

Here's the scary part. In the current culture of political correctness, if the civil rights movement led by Dr. King in the 60s happened today, instead of 40 years ago, the response of the majority, with their views of white supremacy, would use their own political correctness as a weapon. How DARE these negros question our vision of right and wrong! How DARE they assume to demand that their voice be heard! How DARE they try to argue their case to us - we don't want to hear it! In any case it's worthless!

That did not happen in the 60's. Well, it did happen in some cases, but eventually, enough people were civilized enough to hear the arguments and begin to question their own beliefs - enough that eventually things began to change and the civil rights movement began to bear fruit.

I'm afraid that in today's environment, the same situation might not happen. Minority opinion is mercilessly squashed. Sometimes even majority opinion. What that tells me is that perhaps society has NOT evolved over the past half-decade. In fact, it may have even regressed.

Some of the responses in this thread show that clearly. Mr. Heston's reasoned arguments in favor of fighting for our beliefs using civil disobedience, not violence, have been met by vilification, calling him senile, a right-winger who has declared war on his fellow citizens, a dangerous idiot, a washed-up has-been, etc. etc.

But I have not seen any one of these politically correct responses actually try to respond to Mr. Heston's allegation - namely, that the holders of unpopular ideas are vilified, and called senile, a right-winger who has declared war on his fellow citizens, a dangerous idiot, a washed-up has-been, etc. etc., instead of debated with according to the merits of their position.

I find the irony both amusing and disappointing. It also proves Mr. Heston's point quite well.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:16 am

And what you don't get Charles is that the phrase "politically correct" has become a luxurious resort hotel where (mostly) conservatives check into when somneone actually challenges their values.

Let me take one of Heston's comments I can relate to:

I've worked with brilliantly talented homosexuals all my life. But when I told an audience that gayrights should extend no further than your rights or my rights, I was called a homophobe

That sounds nice and common sensical doesn't it? What Heston apparently REFUSES to even mentally deal with is the "your rights" part....what right does a gay man have to serve his country? What right does he have to keep his job when he's fired because his boss doesn't like faggots? What right does he have to adopt a child? What right does he have to visit the person he loves in, say, a hospital ER...or give that person his life and possessions in a legal union? The answer is zilch.

Yet to Charlton Heston, this gay man's rights are all complete and safe and snug and secure. And when someone challenges Heston (or many a conservative) to actually ponder that they aren't, that person is demanding a "politically correct" answer.

This has turned into the single most useless phrase in the American lexicon, yet conservatives hide behind it with zeal every day.

So that this nation may long endure, I urge you to follow in the hallowed footsteps of the great disobedience's of history that freed exiles, founded religions, defeated tyrants, and yes, in the hands of an aroused rabble in arms and a few great men, by God's grace, built this country. If Dr. King were here, I think he would agree.

What a pompous hypocrite. It's absolutely mind boggling when a staunch conservative lays claim to progressivism in the same breath as savaging the progressive ideals of today. "If Dr. King we're here...."

And WHY, you concrete-minded bafoon, ISN'T Dr. King here? Because some crazed nut with a gun murdered him.....

(OOOPS! Being 'politically correct'....pardon)




 
sleekjet
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:32 am

Great speech. Great American. Thanks for the post, MD-90.
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
Superfly
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:51 am

Did crime start with Ice-T's 'Cop Killer' LP in 1992?  Confused


I marched for civil rights with Dr. King in 1963 - long before Hollywood found it fashionable. But when I told an audience last year that white pride is just as valid as black pride or red pride or anyone else's pride, they called me a racist.

There are many holidays and celebrations that are Eurocentric in origin and are NOT offensive and many non-Whites celebrate as well.
Those that chant 'White Pride' are the groups that hate non-Whites and feel superior to non-Whites.


I've worked with brilliantly talented homosexuals all my life.

I am sure he had a ball. Big grin


Dr. King said "Negroes." Jimmy Baldwin and most of us on the March said "black." But it's a no-no now.

I am sure he is losing sleep over this one.  Yeah sure

This guy was paranoid that Al Gore was going to take away everyone's gun.


I've read the entire article and I really don't see his point either. They guy is just a mumbling idiot.







Bring back the Concorde
 
N202PA
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:51 am

And what you don't get Charles is that the phrase "politically correct" has become a luxurious resort hotel where (mostly) conservatives check into when somneone actually challenges their values.

I guess that's why conservative speakers routinely get shouted down by liberal student groups on college campuses, because they are deemed as not worthy of having their opinion heard. In the minds of these people, as long as you have an opinion that differs from the commonly accepted "tolerant" one (which only espouses a different form of intolerance), you are a thug, an enemy, and viewed as so low that you don't even deserve to have an opinion. And this has been going on for years - I remember a 48 Hours special on CBS in 1994 on the very subject. Not to mention John Stossel's special on it a few years ago.

Charles, your response is excellent, and dead-on. Thank you for pointing out what should be obvious on this thread.
 
cfalk
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:53 am

Heavymetal,

While I don't agree with some of what you are saying, I applaud you for at least trying to argue your case, instead of just calling Mr. Heston names.

A wise man once said, "From debate comes knowledge and accomodation. From namecalling comes zilch."

I think it was me  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Superfly
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:08 am

A wise man once said, "From debate comes knowledge and accomodation. From namecalling comes zilch."

Very true.

As far as Heston?
Not a very wise man.  Sad


Bring back the Concorde
 
jcs17
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:15 am

That's the problem, Jcs: I do NOT respect this nut. I don't respect anyone who tries to flood the streets with firearms to protects the 2nd Amendment he and his minions have twisted to mean what it doesn't. There's nothing safe about having 100 million handguns on the streets, and crime and murder rates prove that.

I don't respect him for what he is now, and who he represents. He and the NRA are one of the most dangerous groups in the U.S. today. So don't tell me I HAVE to respect an idiot like him.


I dont care if you respect the guy or not, I just think that your comments about his Alzheimer's disease was extremely insensitive and rude. I stongly disagree with Janet Reno's views but you dont see me going around making fun of the fact that she has Parkinsons. Flood the streets with firearms, huh? Let me let you in on a little secret; despite what you think, most criminals do not get there guns through legal means---they buy them on the black market. Its is just like the criminalization of illegal drugs; no matter what you do, the addicts will always be able to get their hands on them. People like Rosie O'Donnell live in a fantasy world, where they think that the criminal goes to the local gun shop and pays $400 to buy a gun and waits 7-10 days while it is being registered. The 2nd Amendment was designed to allow citizens to keep firearms in their place of residence for personal protection, and the NRA was created for this cause. Give me a break.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
jaysit
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 5:10 am

. . . That did not happen in the 60's. Well, it did happen in some cases, but eventually, enough people were civilized enough to hear the arguments and begin to question their own beliefs - enough that eventually things began to change and the civil rights movement began to bear fruit . . .

I am sorry, my dear man. You need to go check your history books. With all my due regards to you and Dr. King, the reason the civil rights movement became enshrined in law, was due to poor ol' discredited Pres Lyndon Johnson and the much needed and politically correct Civil Rights Acts he passed. I laud you for believing that all those racist Whites in the South were so swayed by Dr. King's speeches that they took off the "Whites Only" signs at public pools and colleges and lunch counters and started listening to Mahalia Jackson's gorgeous voice, but once again you are dead wrong. A very brave President, going against his Southern Dixiecrat compadres, decided that enough was enough, upheld the Constitution, and signed what was a politically correct bill into law. By your standards, I suppose, southern segregationists also had a point that was worth debating ad nauseaum, because - oh, my gosh, their political incorrectness was just as worthy a viewpoint. But thats why its called "INCORRECT." Because its fundamentally WRONG, fundamentally BS, fundamentally bigoted, and fundamentally against the constitutional rights we are all guaranteed. Pres. Johnson recognized that, but pretty much handed the South over to Nixon and the Trent Lotts of the world after that.

Frankly, I find it nauseating that political conservatives of the racist, bigoted variety, use the civil rights movement analogously to promote their own narrow-minded views. As if there were even an analogy to a quest for dignity and basic rights, and a quest to spout any bigoted rubbish that comes to mind ! Dr. King and his cohorts were trying to grant people their basic rights. If that is being politically correct, then lets have more of it.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 5:49 am

The 2nd Amendment was designed to allow citizens to keep firearms in their place of residence for personal protection, and the NRA was created for this cause. Give me a break.

All right, here's that break....

"A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."


There it is, nice and bolded out to burn into your noggin'. Now, you, and Chuck, and the NRA believe that the 2nd Ammendment goes like this, and ONLY this:

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.

You dismiss the debate that people want to have with you about how the Founder's MAY have intended the possession of firearms to be intended for representatives responsible for "the security of a free State." (i.e., police, law enforecement, national guard, etc).

I dismiss it too, frankly, but I think it's a good debate and there's a lot of grey there. Yet even broaching the topic with a rightie is......(whisper)politically incorrect...

But the thing that Chuckster and the NRA scoff at that is even more insulting, in my opinion, is the "well-regulated" part. They never met a gun law they liked, except zero tolerance for gun crimes (good). But, like drugs, there need to be preventative measures too.(also good). Yet these people freak out when you push the notion that guns should be sold with safety locks.

It's paranoia bordering on anarchy.



 
N79969
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:10 am

Heavymetal,

Conservatives might try to check into it Political Correctness "Hotel" but its booked solid through 2015 because a lot of university professors and the like have made plans.

Political correctness is a real problem especially on college campuses. The American college campus will not tolerate conservative faculty members. Nationwide the disparity is ridiculous.

It is politically correct to be diverse. But that means diverse in the most superficial sense: skin color, ethnicity, and so on. The more important diversity of thought is not tolerated. This is harmful to the quality of education in this country.

http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/2002/october_2002_5.html

 
N79969
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:26 am

Jaysit,

You probably would prefer seeing conservatives disparage the ideas of luminaries such as MLK jr. Part of MLK's dream was that every individual is judged by the contents of his or her character. That

What is truly revolting is the way the Civil Rights establishment exploits the cause for the personal gain of its purported leaders and continues to peddle a ideologically bankrupt platform to African-Americans. Jesse Jackson is a mere a corporate shakedown artist. Nothing more. This machine has trashed its own best talent in order to sustain its own moribund platform.

Potential African-American star leaders like Corey Booker or Rep. Harold Ford are trashed and the Civil Rights Establishment continues to bank on uberliberals like Nancy Pelosi to deliver the goods.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:31 am

The American college campus will not tolerate conservative faculty members.

Hillsdale, Notre Dame, Brigham Young, Liberty, Calvin, Bob Jones.....these facilities of higher learning aren't in Zambia. And they aren't liberal, or, in some cases, even near the American middle. In fact I'd say the opposite was true!....they won't tolerate liberals.

In fact, look at the title of this thread. What school was Chuck speaking at??

And isn't it funny that the charge of "politically correct" gets levied most often at college professors and the university environment....the one place that during the course of your life is, or should be, designed to challenge what you know. Believe in. Challenge "the facts". And whether that challenge has an effect to modify your belief or knowledge, or whether it strengthens even more that which you believed in to begin with, the process is the same. That challenge is called learning.

But that process drives conservatives batshit. They don't want their kids exposed to those mental challenges, lest they somehow be 'corrupted' . And I just listed off more than a couple of institutions they can send their kids to make sure those challenges never come up.

That's not good enough though. Just as they did with the media, they use quirky, idiotic little examples of intellectual stubborness to lay this blanket plot over American higher learning that's "out to get" conservative thought.

And just as with the media, the argument is rubbish.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:37 am

For what it's worth, I agree 100 percent about Jesse.

And the true stripes of the media came out today when, after the Trent Lott comments (which were telling and despicable), they fell over themselves to race to the doorstep of the one man who would provide the best indignation....Jesse Jackson.

The media may be liberal, they may be conservative....but they dont make money off of idealogy. They get ratings and revenue off of conflict. Battles big & small.

I suppose it's the penalty of a free press, but it's kinda pathetic when you think about it.

Anyway, back to thread topic....
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:38 am

Heavymetal, it is a farce to say that stiffer gun control laws would've stopped Dr. King's murder. If that man was fanatical enough to murder, then getting a gun from the black market wouldn't have caused him any lost sleep.

Alpha 1, if you ever break into my mother's home, well she has a gun and if you threaten her, she'll shoot to kill. Case in point. Late one night, in Huntsville, several years ago, there was a small, almost riot downtown with mostly black people involved. My mother was driving home from a dance, and there she was, a white woman alone in her expensive looking minivan. She told me that she took her gun, a .38 Smith & Wesson out of her fanny pack, and she laid it on the seat beside her. Nothing happened, but if something had, Mom would've had a very good threat against potential violence in her hand.

N79969, I totally agree with you. I haven't really noticed the problem too much here at Mississippi State, but then again it's Mississippi and it's the Bible Belt, so we don't have the problem too badly, I don't think, like some ultra liberal universities do.

Jaysit, Mr. Heston had the guts to get up in front of 1000 people and the head execs of Time-Warner, a hugely powerful company in the entertainment industry, and point out that exactly what Ice-T was saying in his so-called music. That took guts and courage and the willingness to be blacklisted by Times-Warner.

Of course I don't think that Ice-T is responsible for crime. Personally, I think the fact that the people of the United States have turned their backs on their own Christian heritage, is largely to blame. We're becoming secular, everyone decides what's right for them, and what's wrong for you may not be wrong for me. Bull!

I don't understand the whole complex reason why American culture is the way it is today. I'm studying engineering, not sociology. But...oh never mind.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:45 am

We're becoming secular, everyone decides what's right for them, and what's wrong for you may not be wrong for me. Bull!

Freedom is bull?

I kinda like deciding what's right for me. Anyone.....?







(btw-What part of 'Christian heritage' says own a 12-Gague?)


 
N79969
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:47 am

Heavymetal,

Your list of schools is probably comprehensive. What's that? 5 or 10 universities. At least 3 were religious. I'll be generous and give you 25.

Ultra-liberal dogma prevails across the vast majority of college campuses. The "learning" atmosphere they create is skewed, stifling, and often intolerant.

It is ultra-left wing professors that don't want to have a challenge to the liberal orthodoxy in their tenured presence. The prospect of any conservatism among the faculty ranks drives liberals apeshit. Meaningful dissent is not tolerated.

Academia has been hijacked by liberal orthodoxy to the detriment of intellectual freedom.

Rubbish? This is a well-documented phenomenon. This AEI report was discussed on Meet The Press or another show a few weeks ago.

You are a smart guy and one of the more observant commenters on this website, I am surprised you are not disturbed by this assault on freedom by the (in this case left-wing) fringe elements.
 
N79969
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:16 am

MD-90,

"Personally, I think the fact that the people of the United States have turned their backs on their own Christian heritage, is largely to blame. We're becoming secular, everyone decides what's right for them, and what's wrong for you may not be wrong for me. Bull!"


I agree with Heavymetal on this one.

Individual freedom is the most cherished value in this country. Our founding fathers consciously kept a wall between church and state and it has been extremely succesful. OBL and his ilk also like to think they know what is best for everyone.

Moral relativism is another matter but what you said is pretty extremist.
 
N202PA
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:23 am

It is ultra-left wing professors that don't want to have a challenge to the liberal orthodoxy in their tenured presence. The prospect of any conservatism among the faculty ranks drives liberals apeshit. Meaningful dissent is not tolerated.

Having attended a school populated by academic liberals (although mildly so) in the 90s, I can attest to this. What's even worse is the fact that this sort of behavior is echoed in the student body, by activists who would rather shout down someone with a contrary view and demonize them as "evil" and "stupid" than engage them in honest debate.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:35 am

Sorry N. I don't buy it. I didn't buy the 'liberal media' nonsense ten years ago, and I don't buy the argument that there's some leftist fifth column intent on gangbanging conservative voices on college campuses today. Are there left/right battles happening on university campuses? You bet. I should hope there would be. I'll even grant you that some of the more tenacious left wing partisans lurk among the ivy and doric columns.

But Jesus, the "radical leftists" of the 60s are today's Republicans! What more do you want?

Quick story for ya. One day when I was in college (don't tell anyone, but at a New England giant of academia well known as a nest of progressive ideals...surprise?), I was barked at by a sociology professor that downtrodden, to-be-pitied persons on welfare should be allowed, if they so choose, to use their federally-supplied money to buy expensive satellite television receivers to get more channels. I believed this was horse-sheeeet and proceeded to argue that as a taxpayer it was not my responsibility to pay for the unemployed to practice potatous couch-ium. 'Politically incorrect?'.....obviously, because World War IV ensued. But I stuck to my guns and was even rewarded a smattering of applause as I slammed home my points (eat your heart out, Crossfire).

I was not failed. I was not expelled. I was not tailed home by some mysterious Birkenstock-clad thought police. Indeed, at the conclusion of the class, this rather butch prof-in-comfortable-shoes reminded me once again how full of it I was and then thanked me for livening up the afternoon.

One example that I can speak of by experience. By the looks of your post, though, you seem to have thousands to the contrary...I hope you'll forgive me if I think maybe you're stetching. I also beg forgiveness on casting a doubtful eye on any data eminating from the American Enterprise Institute. Any organization with Robert Bork and Lynee Cheney on their board of supervisors tells me there just might be a pinch of agenda going into any research.

Thank you for your compliment and yes, I worry about assaults on my beloved freedom and my beloved country from any "-wing". At the present, the one wing that despises guns worries me less. I'm sure you'll understand.
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:48 am

Heavymetal, I wasn't talking about personal freedom. I was referring to moral relativism.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:03 am

The ability to examine and set one's own moral compass is a freedom, the freedom at the heart of what has made this the best place to live on Earth.



(biased.)
 
sccutler
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:18 am

...and a refreshing wind blew through the forum.

It is an unusual twist on A.net, that a politically-charged thread had an initial spate of mindless attack babble, then (faint and fall over) articulate and civil disagreement followed. Bravo to all who partcipate with dignity.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
GDB
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:55 am

Heston often goes into paranoid overdrive, for instance when Smith & Wesson was owned by a UK company, (Tompkins), they were leading the way with child-locks for guns.
So obviously a renewed attempt by the British Crown to subvert US independence.
(That's what this absurd old ham said by the way).
Yeah, so true, trying to stop the fearful toll of accidental guns deaths in the US, (and to be sure a good bit of marketing on S & Ws part, as well as anticipating a possible mandatory future requirement).
Clearly revenge for 1776, and he also told outright lies about the gun-related death toll here, and the cause and effect of shocking incidents in 1987 and 1996 that caused a further tightening of controls.
Then just after the Columbine massacre, (not caused by guns you understand, oh no, in NRA-land it was the music of Marilyn Manson), the NRA did not have the common respect and decency to at least delay a rally and gunshow nearby.
Question, do these real hard core NRA types, (I understand there is probably a large moderate element in the membership-film maker Michael Moore for one), but do the real activist types have, well.....issues with the size and/or functionality of their manhoods?
 
brianhames
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:09 am

Great speech, Heston is the man. Inspite of all you spineless weenies afraid of a gun.
 
Guest

RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:01 am

Brainhames wrote:

"Inspite of all you spineless weenies afraid of a gun."


And you're not afraid of an instrument that can take a human life in an instant? People differ on the right to bear arms, but any sane a person respects how dangerous a gun can be... or so I thought. I may be spineless but, unlike you, I am not brainless.
 
jaysit
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:24 pm

N76609 -

...You probably would prefer seeing conservatives disparage the ideas of luminaries such as MLK jr. Part of MLK's dream was that every individual is judged by the contents of his or her character....

What I prefer or don't prefer is a moot point. The truth is that conservatives have spent the last 4 decades trashing MLK and his ideas. The mere thought that poseurs such as yourself now deliberately twist MLK's message into a doctrine of "lets judge individuals by the content of their character", while continuing to ignore rabid institutionalized racism that continue to judge individuals by the color of your skin is testimony to your sheer gall. Or your sheer ignorance of what MLK stood for. He certainly didn't stand for or want his message subverted into support for a bunch of whining, complaining right wingers who contrary to all evidence still believe that their message of traditional values (women in the kitchen, gays on the gallows, etc) is being thwarted by a relatively open-minded mainstream press.

As far as Mr. Heston having the cojones to stand before 1000 people and decry some rapper... big deal? Coming down on violent rappers is easy. Everyone does it. The black church in my neighborhood, the local PTA, Lynne Cheney, Gloria Steinhem.... the list goes on.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:45 pm

Let me let you in on a little secret; despite what you think, most criminals do not get there guns through legal means..

I'm not even talking about criminals, Jcs. I'm talking about the approximately 100 MILLION handguns in possession in the U.S., owned and "operated" by "law-abiding citizens", who, in more cases than you, as a gun lover, will ever care to admit, turn those guns on friends, or a spouse, or a child. How many friggin' handguns are enough for people like you? 200 Million? 300 Million? A billion? And why doesn't it penetrate skulls like yours that the more guns there are, the more chances there are for people to be killed by them?

Great speech, Heston is the man. Inspite of all you spineless weenies afraid of a gun.

Brianhames, I've always heard that a macho love of guns is to make up for SMALL weenies? Is that true?

 Wink/being sarcastic Just kidding. But the point is, Brianhames, you're not a better person because you love guns than someone who doesn't. I personally will NEVER own a handgun, for two reasons: 1. The possibility that I'll be acosted in my own home, or where I could even reach the gun is slim and none, and 2. There's a greater chance, in my mind of an accident happening with a family member or a friend. I don't like guns. Just listen to Hawkeye Peirce, Great American, from M*A*S*H*, and he sums up my dislike for the infernal things.

If you machismo is enhanced by a gun, then I think it's you with the problem, not those who abhore the things.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Charleton Heston's Speech At Harvard

Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:51 pm

Alpha1 -

Just so you know, I actually like guns AND I'm huge (honest).
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "

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