artsyman
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South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:38 am

In a show of Anti-America, 250,000 took to the streets, burning American flags, shredding flags etc. And this is the side of Korea that is supposed to be the friendly one.... Why ?, because two american soldiers were aquitted of running over two South Korean citizens...

Isn't this getting a little out of hand.. ?

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/14/korea.protest/index.html
 
travelin man
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:48 am

Honestly, I'm beginning to think that maybe it would be best if we pulled our troops out of places like South Korea and let them fend for themselves. I'm sure we spend hundreds of millions of $$$ defending that place. Maybe we should pack up and leave and spend that money at home.

Oh, wait, then we would be called "isolationist".
 
2912n
Posts: 1978
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:06 am

Do you think there would be great protests when the North decided to come charging south and their T-55's and T-72's ran down anyone in the way on purpose. Maybe it is time to let South Korea defend itself. Isolationist? Hell, they are going to dislike us one way or the other....In that vein there is an article in todays paper talking about Somalia and how some leaders want us back there...Hah.
 
zauberfloete
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:08 am

I would suggest:
Pull all US troops, weapons etc. out of South Korea. Stop all military and political aid.

If North Korea then invades South Korea, the USA should just send a letter of protest to the UN secretary general and that's it.
Obviously that is it what the public demands, let them get it.

Man only learns from error...
 
Marco
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:15 am

Zauberfloete, you couldn't have said it any better Big grin
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
travelin man
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:15 am

Or even better yet, when the South is invaded by the North, we could ask the UN to form a committee to look into it.
 
david b.
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:29 am

Then the south would really hate us. Not only that they would have nuclear weapons, which they would see to terrorist groups that really hate us. Did you think about that? You kill citizens in another country you should be trailed and punished under their court of law.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
777236ER
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:51 am

Do you not think it's because there are people in the US (TNNH for example) advocating attacks on North Korea that will SURELY bring an attack upon the South?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
pacificjourney
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:51 am

Before commenting on such topics some people here need to get some facts straight. The 'outraged-taxpayer' line is total nonsense !

The US actually saves money by having troops in SK as that government not only pays all basing and logistical costs for those units but they also make a direct payment to the US government for those troops 'services'. In essence the US gets these army and airforce units maintained for their own use at cut price rates !

The same conditions apply to US forces in Japan (not the USN though).

Try reading a little deeper and you will realise the true bones of contention are (A) revising of the SOFA conditions, and (B) occupation of prime real estate in large cities by not only US forces but also Korean ones. The latter complaint being directed more at the Korean government than the US one. Problem A clearly deserving of more reasonable consideration by all sides.

Of course these pesky details don't make such good headlines as flag burning but shouldn't we all endeavour to do better than CNN and really understand something before shooting our mouths of about it ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
b757300
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:55 am

Fine, then we should pull out all our troops, all our Patriot missile batteries and let the idiot S. Koreans stare down the barrel of the nuclear gun all by themselves. I wonder how long until they are begging for our help again.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
pacificjourney
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:01 am

So you don't think it is legitimate that Koreans demand more say in how US forces in their country behave or where they live ?

PS
Korea has it's own military, a pretty damn good one with pretty good toys of their own. US presence is more symbolic in nature than militarily vital.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
OO-AOG
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:36 am

You people need to slow down a bit and make a small analysis of this article, here's a quote:

The demonstrators were calling for a retrial of the soldiers in a South Korean court as well as a revision of the agreement with Washington over the rights and conduct of the 37,000 U.S. service personnel in the country.
They want there to be more South Korean jurisdiction over the U.S. troops.


Two girls were killed by 2 US soldiers and those were acquitted. It's true that US soldiers living abroad seem to never be subject to local juridictions, and most of the time are simply acquitted or called back home. They just want those guys to go to be judged in a South Korean court like anybody else who would have killed 2 girls with their vehicle on the Korean territory. As simple as that.

Just imagine that the US accept a foreign military base in the US (that will never happen of course...), and that 2 drunk Korean soldiers did the same thing to 2 American teenagers, do you think that the American people would be happy to have a Korean court acquitting those soldiers?! Of course not.

So before calling those Koreans stupid (like 757300 did above), just think twice and understand the local population.


Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
manni
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:51 am

Artsyman wrote,

'Isnt this getting a litte out of hand'?

http://www.frso.org/fight/2002winter/korea.htm

Yes it is indeed getting a little out of hand.

(800 crimes are commited by US military yearly in SK, making a total of over 100000 victims)
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
artsyman
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:13 am

Manni, You are mssing the point, I am not saying that they are perfect, I am just suggesting that this anti-americanism is getting out of hand. The Saudi goverment would fall if the US stopped protecting them, same with in Korea, I don't hear the Kuwaiti's offering thanks for being saved, or the Muslims in the Balkans....

While the Yanks are not perfect, they do a hell of a lot more good in the world than most people. Frances treatment of the arabs in france is appalling, yet I just hear complaints about America.

 
2912n
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:15 am

OO-AOG- I think you will find that the Germans have a military presence in the US. The do much of their flight training at Holloman AFB in New Mexico. Numerous countries come to the US to train. NATO AWACS aircraft operated in US skies to assist us after 9-11. The reason we have bases in other nations is to counter threats....Not as an occupying force.

I believe the children killed in South Korea died as the result of an ACCIDENT. The soldiers were on duty and not drunk. There is a big difference between an accident and a criminal act. Most US service members that commit a criminal offense, ie...rape, are turned over to civil authoriites in the nation where the crime occured. But when it occurs in an accident during an on duty training excercise....the soldiers involved are then subject to US military law.

Manni--800 crimes allegedly committed by US forces. I will accept that on face value. But 100,000 victims? Maybe if spread over the past 30 years or so. That website is a one sided political add. And if that is the way that Koreans REALLY feel, then the US should abandon the South. (But who will cry when the North Koreans are in power....The right to publish something like that website would certainly disappear.)
 
Guest

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:19 am

For those of you who think S. Koreans protesting because they're bunch of idiots and suggesting to isolate them, think about this:

What would the Americans do if 2 Korean Soldiers killed or raped 2 American girls and walked away free?

I'm beginning to think that maybe it would be best if we pulled our troops out of places like South Korea

So the best way is to send this soldiers based in Korea to other place, so these soldiers can cause more trouble in other places?

I would suggest:
Pull all US troops, weapons etc. out of South Korea. Stop all military and political aid.


A horrible "American Attitude". You don't like us, fine, we're packing and leave you alone. Do Americans really figure out why people hates them?

You're making America looks bad because you represent a state who don't have the word "SHAME" in the dictionary.

Plus, I also doubted that the mass protest in Seoul will cause any effect.


 
OO-AOG
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:30 am

I think you will find that the Germans have a military presence in the US. The do much of their flight training at Holloman AFB in New Mexico

Training base, not a strategic one 2912n, that does make a difference...
And however I think that they have to follow the US law. Holloman AFB is a german military base? Or an US one accepting Germans?

I believe the children killed in South Korea died as the result of an ACCIDENT

Could be, but this has been decided by an US military court, not a local one. I think those guys think that 'accident-not guilty-acquitted' is not acceptable...
You have to admit that US military ex-pats behavior is much of a problem in many different countries, I can remember Japan (rape cases) and Italy (a fighter and a cabletrain).

but please answer my question...: what would be the result with a similar accident, but this time Korean soldiers in the US..?


While the Yanks are not perfect, they do a hell of a lot more good in the world than most people. Frances treatment of the arabs in france is appalling, yet I just hear complaints about America

Artsyman, What's exactly the problem with France and the Arabians?!

Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
2912n
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:37 am

Bigo 747---

Please don't throw things like "You're making America looks bad because you represent a state who don't have the word "SHAME" in the dictionary" Thats nothing but flame. What I find here is people have as little understanding of America and Americans as they claim we have about other peoples/cultures.

I believe that most people outside of the US get their image of Americans from Television and the movies. Well guess what, that ain't the way it really is.

I live in a military oriented city where visits from foreign navy ships are common. 99% of the sailors behave themselves and enjoy their visit here. But every once in a while someone does something stupid. They commit a crime and there is an innocent American victim. The issue is dealt with by either returning the offender to his own command for trial and potential punishment, or if the crime is more serious, through our own judicial system. There is no great public outcry.

Many times America is hated just because. It is very easy to blame the US for all of the worlds problems. "Hey, look at the big bad United States. They are the root of all evil." It is easier than admitting to your own internal issues.

Are Americans sometimes their own worst enemy? Sure. We can be loud and brash and insensitive to others. It is a failing that we must address. But we are no more guilty of it than any other group.

Being open minded is a two way street. I will try to understand you and your culture but you must do the same for me.
 
2912n
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:52 am

OO--

I do believe, but I can't say for certain, that a portion of Holloman is a German base.

I think if you look you will find a sad number of U.S. servicemen who are in foreign prisons. Many will be subject to US Military punishment AFTER their incarceration in a civil prison.

I don't know the wording of Status of Forces agreements. But they make a differentiation between accidents that occur while training, ie...the EA-6 that hit the cable in Italy resulting in the death of people on the tram or the two children killed in South Korea vs. a rape. In my understanding if there is a crime committed within CIVIL jurisdiction it is handled by the appropriate civil authorities and the perpetrator is subject to the approptiate civil laws. BUT if something occurs while on duty and is not clear violation of civil law, (for example, the soldier is out on a field problem and goes off and rapes a woman. In that case he would probably be remanded to the civil authorities.) he would be subject to US Military law.

Part of the issue is the differences between laws. In the US having a vehicle accident, absent some additional behaviours, like drunk driving, are not criminal in nature. But in other nations, Mexico for example, being involved in a simple traffic accident can be criminal. That is why the Status of Forces agreements are made. So that it is clear whose jurisdiction governs what actions.

Sometimes it feels like spitting into the wind. People protest so we say, "Fine. You don't like us, we will leave." Then we get accused of not understanding the local culture/population etc...
 
Guest

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:59 am

Please don't throw things like "You're making America looks bad because you represent a state who don't have the word "SHAME" in the dictionary" Thats nothing but flame. What I find here is people have as little understanding of America and Americans as they claim we have about other peoples/cultures.

It's not a flame. It's a criticision.

Many times America is hated just because. It is very easy to blame the US for all of the worlds problems. "Hey, look at the big bad United States. They are the root of all evil." It is easier than admitting to your own internal issues.

This is the point why I'm criticizing. Sometimes American seems not to realize why other country's people hate them. They didn't realize because they didn't ask themself "What did I do wrong?"



Then we get accused of not understanding the local culture/population etc...

You get accused because you have committed a crime in a foreign countries. It's not about local culture understanding.

 
2912n
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:08 am

Americans understand "shame." We express it differently than some other cultures. I'm sorry, but to me it came across a bit more harshly.

You don't think we don't look in the mirror and ask ourselves questions? You don't think we critique ourselves? You should read our newspapers and experience our culture. As a nation we wonder and as a nation we try to do things right. But it is not an easy thing. Any nation that has a presence in other countries has the same issues of misunderstanding.

"You get accused because you have committed a crime in a foreign countries. It's not about local culture understanding"

Sure it is. What we see as an accident is seen as a crime. It is a cultural difference.

But I sense that you will not listen to me with an open mind. Oh well.

Cheers and may the world bring you nothing but the best in the new year.
 
Guest

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:16 am

It is a cultural difference.

2912n, you're being ironic. You say Americans have shame. If they have shame and understand it, then why are you saying "It is a cultural difference"?

Or Can I say that Arab terrorists crash planes into World Trade Center and Pentagon is because of "cultural difference"?

Is this what you meant that it's ok for Americans to kill other foreigners but it's not ok if it's vice versa?
 
manni
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:21 am

2912n wrote,

'Most US service members that commit a criminal offense, ie rape... are turned over to civil authorities in the nation the crime occured'

According to the webpage of wich I provided a link, less than 1% of the 800 crimes commited by US military are turned over to local aothorities.

'800 crimes alledgedly commited by US forces. I will accept that on face value. But 100000 victims? Maybe if spread over the past 30 years or so.'

Indeed 100000 victims since 1968. As this isn't bad enough?

Artsyman,

Are you trying to say that the fact that the US military 'protects' South Korea makes up for these 100000 victims? God help Kuwait and it's woman if that's the price they have to pay for 'protection'.

you wrote,

'While the Yanks are not perfect they do a hell f a lot more good to the world than most people'

Agreed, but one good does not justify one bad.

you wrote,

'Frances treatment of the arabs is appaling, yet I just hear complaints about America.'

Be sure that if these 800 crimes commited yearly would be commited by, let's say the French, the demonstration would be turned against the French.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
2912n
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:31 am

Bigo----

Huh?

Different cultures express shame differently. Oriental cultures are very different in that respect and we don't understand them/they don't understand us.

I am saddened that two children died in a tragic accident. But I am not ashamed. Sadly in life accidents happen. We feel bad and then we move on, hopefully not repeating those accidents.

In a sense Arab terorrists crashing planes into the WTC is a misunderstanding of cultures. They believe that all we are driven by is the dollar, which means that if they destroy this trade icon they will devestate America. They misunderstood American much as Japan did in the days leading up to WWII. (And yes, we misunderstood Japan as well.)

As for your last statement...Again, Huh? I never said anything like that. If an American commits a crime such as rape in a foreign country he should be accountable to the laws of that country. But understand the difference between an tragic accident and an intentional act. Under the law that applies to the soldiers involved, an agreement reached by the governments of the U.S. and South Korea, it was an ACCIDENT and they were not subject to local laws. Had circumstances been different and they were in a private car on a night on the town and crashed killing an innocent they would be subject to local civil law.

I feel that you are anti-american. (if I am wrong accept my apologies.).

Just as you want us to understand others and live by their laws I would hope that you understand us. Travel the US with an OPEN mind, as I have tried when I visit other countries. I think you would be amazed by how similar we all are as well as astounded by how different we can be.

Cheers.
 
Guest

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:43 am

I feel that you are anti-american.

People who criticize American doesn't mean they're anti-American. If I criticize Canada, does this mean I'm anti-Canadian?
 
artsyman
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:02 am

One of the things America has stated time and time again is that due to the anti-american crap that goes on, they feel that if they are sent to a country to protect your people, then they are not going to allow their soldiers to be vulnerable to petty accusations and propaganda. This is why the US was so opposed to the World court. Basically the US says if it cannot protect its forces from this stuff, then they will not serve to protect those people.

Manni, do you think that an American soldier that is accused of a crime in IRAN, IRAQ, EGYPT, SAUDI ARABIA etc would get a fair and unbaised trial from the people in those countries ?.

I would also love to see statistics validating 100,000 deaths of CIVILIANS from 800 crimes that soldiers have commited. If you are refering to errant bombs, sanctions, or things like that, then these while not a nice occurance, cannot be brought into this debate.

You seem to be implying that American soldiers in 800 circumstances have murdered, raped, run-over, etc over 100,000 people. I am not even going to wait for the evidence as it is utter bollocks.

Jeremy
 
Alpha 1
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:15 am

Korea has it's own military, a pretty damn good one with pretty good toys of their own. US presence is more symbolic in nature than militarily vital.

Disagree. The ROK could not withstand, by themselves, an onslaught from the DRPK. Just my hunch there. The U.S. presence has been the ONLY presence keeping the DRPK north of the 38th Parallel.

Yes it is indeed getting a little out of hand.

(800 crimes are commited by US military yearly in SK, making a total of over 100000 victims)


Manni, that's an AVERAGE of 125 victims PERD CRIME, and you know and I know that's total bullshit. Stop exaggerating to keep fanning your anti-Americanism.

For those of you who think S. Koreans protesting because they're bunch of idiots and suggesting to isolate them, think about this:

What would the Americans do if 2 Korean Soldiers killed or raped 2 American girls and walked away free?


Again, was this a wonton, deliberate crime, or was it an accident? If it were purly an accident, I don't see what everyone in the South is getting so upset about. Oftentimes, people are acquitted of any crime in a vehicular accident, when there was no drunkeness, or any wreckless driving involved. I think this incident is being blown way out of proportion, in that respect.

Indeed 100000 victims since 1968. As this isn't bad enough?

Again, Manni, how about a source, please? You thowing that number out on the forum doesn't exactly fill me with confidence it it's reliability. And again, you're claiming an average of 125 victims per "crime"?

One reason, I think, people may not understand why the jurisdiction is set up the way it is, is to keep what we might describe as "frivilous" claims being constantly filed against servicemen of another country. To me, if it is not a crime of muder, rape, armed robbery, or some other major event, I think it should be handled by that soldier's own military-be it if it is a U.S. serviceman in South Korea, or a German servicman in the States.

I think this does not jeopardize the relationship between the ROK and the U.S. It will pass, although I think you will see some negotiations that could lead to modification of the jursidiction agreement between the ROK and the US. I don't think these men should be retried, unless it can be shown that some evidence was neglected or not presented in the case.

This isn't an event where Americans should tell Korean's to "go at it alone, and see how you like it", and it shouldn't be an event that let's anti-US sentiment come to the forfront again. That's just looking for an argument from either side.
 
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yyz717
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 10:28 am

Incredible. The only thing keeping the North Koreans from driving south has been the American presence.

What a selfish group of protestors.

Maybe the US should pull out en masse. Let the ungrateful South Koreans fend for themselves, for once.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:00 am

What a selfish group of protestors.

Yyz717, I think you have completely forgotten what about to those Canadian soldiers who accidentally bombed by US pilots in Afghanistan.

Are those people who protest the way US handles this selfish?

I'm surprise that some Canadians seems to have no words of "Shame" in their vocabulary too.
 
Marco
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:05 am

I'm surprise that some Canadians seems to have no words of "Shame" in their vocabulary too.

Give it up Bigo. We're discussing our opinions here, not our personalities.

YYZ717...right on!
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Guest

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:08 am

Give it up Bigo. We're discussing our opinions here, not our personalities.

I just feel pathetic for these people who have such feelings. Is it because these stuff have nothing to do with them or their family/relatives?
 
david b.
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:30 am

Typical American altitudes. Its no wonder why so many people hate us...and rightfully so. I would like to see 2 American girls killed or raped by Korean soldiers and get away with it. Ohhh.......What would happen.

The altitudes of some people are ridiculous.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Alpha 1
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:37 am

I would like to see 2 American girls killed or raped by Korean soldiers and get away with it.

David B, you're a pretty loathsome person if you wish that on anyone, just to make a political point.

And it's "attitude", not "altitude".

I think you need a dose of growing up, with an attitude like yours.
 
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yyz717
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:38 am

The Koreans should put things in perspective. yes, of course the death of those girls was a tragedy. But the Americans are in Korea to protect the Koreans. The entire peninsula would be "North Korea" if not for the Americans.

The $billions in aid that the US has pumped into South Korea and the 100k's of Korean immigrants that the US has selflessly taken in should not be forgotten by these selfish South Korean protestors.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
david b.
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:38 am

Fine, then we should pull out all our troops, all our Patriot missile batteries and let the idiot S. Koreans stare down the barrel of the nuclear gun all by themselves. I wonder how long until they are begging for our help again. Yeah sure
 Yeah sure
How about we tell those idiot Americans to shove their ignorant "we are immortal, center of the world" altitude up their lard asses?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
david b.
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:42 am

David B, you're a pretty loathsome person if you wish that on anyone, just to make a political point.

And it's "attitude", not "altitude".

I think you need a dose of growing up, with an attitude like yours



Read the posts Alpha, its not me that needs growing up.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Guest

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:46 am

The Koreans should put things in perspective.

How can you ask people to do this if you don't do it in the first place?
 
david b.
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:48 am

This is not the first time this happened and it will not be the last. All troops who commit crime should be trailed in that country. If found guilty, they should be kicked out of the US armed forces. If they are not, then they should be transfered.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
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yyz717
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:56 am

When you require 37,000 foreign troops in your country to protect your bacon, accidents will happen.

How many thousands of Americans gave their lives for Korea in the 50's?

This is what I call perspective. The Koreans needs the Americans more than the reverse. The Koreans would do well to remember this.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:09 pm

This is not the first time this happened and it will not be the last.

Boy, there's a newsflash, hot off the presses, David B. As long as there are human beings in ANY military, such things will happen.
 
Guest

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:55 pm

The number of American soldiers who died for South Korean independence wasn't enough?

 
2912n
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RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:56 pm

Geez, I go away for a few hours and people get nasty....

Big O--- I am open to criticisim from people of other countries. That does not mean you are anti american. It is just the impression that I get from your posts. Granted this is a limited discussion...but the tone I get is that the US/Americans can do nothing right. By reading into it we are just a bunch of immoral arrogant jerks. Again, sorry if that is not what you want to come across, but there are many who do. On the positive side you want to debate issues which is a good thing for all concerned.

But I don't udnderstand what you mean about the Canadians who were killed. Do we as a nation feel bad about it? Yes. It was a horrible tragedy. Same thing for some US soldiers who were killed in friendly fire incidents. It sucks. But is it a criminal act? No. It was a tragedy that the pilots who dropped the bombs will have to live with. Their careers were destroyed and the families of the dead were compensated. No. That cannot bring back the dead or undo the suffering. But we didn't just say nothing happend.

David B wants to hang everyone. The two problems need to be seperated. The girls that brought about this protest were killed in a road traffic ACCIDENT. They were not raped. There is a huge difference between a wanton criminal act and an ACCIDENT.

DavidB---It seems from the cartoons and stuff on your profile that you believe in the fairness of criminal justice. I assume that you think that anyone accused should be given a fair trial, not just anyone who "looks like X' should be grabbed up. By that thinking I would say that a military person who is accused of a crime in a foreign country deserves a FAIR TRIAL. I am sure you will agree that not every country that has US servicemen visiting it has that type of judicial system in place. Maybe the fairest trial they can get is in a US military court? (I have yet to read the article...but US News and world Report has a story about the military justice system being to quick to CONVICT....) Or David...do you think anyone who you don't like that is accused of a crime should just be carted off and shot? A double standard perhaps?
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:01 pm

Yawn. So, what have we decided? The South Koreans should defend for themselves? Obviously they don't REALLY want that. They just want big brother "The US" to defend them, then march in hysteria when an ACCIDENT occurs.

Give me a break. I'm sick of being the scapegoat about everything. No, our armed forces will NOT be subject to local courts. South Korea made the deal when they decided that the US should pay for their defense. We are fair (the pilots that dropped the bombs on the Canadians found THAT out).

So the US pays for everything. That's a fact. And South Korea will have to live with it. If they want us out, say so. The Philippines said it, and we left. Somehow, though, I don't think the South Koreans really want to pay to defend themselves. They just want to complain about it. Hypocrites.
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:02 pm

I’m pretty familiar with the situation in South Korea. Koreans in general aren’t the most tolerant people towards foreigners. The fact that a large foreign military force exists on their property does eat many of them up and there’s that prevailing undertone of tension. This tension erupts whenever there’s some sort of international incident involving the US and you’ll generally see protests from college students who really should be studying, but because college education in Korea is a joke and these people have way too much time on their hands because hardly any of these students show up for class.

Anti-American protests in Korea are not new and they protest about everything. For example, when American Apollo Ohno won the gold medal in Speed skating during the Olympics (beating a South Korean skater who was disqualified for pushing Ohno away), South Korea erupted in protest. They blamed the Americans for “embarrassing the pride of the Korean people” and claimed that the US was out to get them. The judge who disqualified Ohno was Australian, but the Korean press didn’t mention this. Koreans were and still are upset and have dubbed the event “Ohnogate”. They made fun of Ohno because of his mixed White/Japanese heritage (Koreans aren’t too fond of the Japanese for obvious reasons). The worst was when some Korean entertainers flew to Seattle, Ohno’s hometown, and egged and vandalized the Laundromat that Ohno’s father runs. That’s pretty low, but these acts were widely praised by the Korean press.

The Shin and Shim deaths are very tragic. I do think Walker and Nino should be tried in Korean court, but I doubt they’d be guaranteed a fair trial. Korean media would have you believe that the Nino and Walker were drunk at the time, a claim proven by both Korean and American authorities to be false. All investigations have led to the conclusion that this tragic event was indeed an accident. But the Korean press has their own agenda and truth is not one of them.

I find the whole coverage of this event to be laughable. First off, it happened in June, during the beginning of the World Cup. But there was hardly any mention of the incident until AFTER the games ended, then the Korean press turned on it full force. Why were there no protests during the duration of the World Cup? Why mention everything afterwards? Why did wait until July and August to express their anger? That’s just strange to me.

As well, I should also mention that there are about 10,000 traffic related deaths in South Korea each year, the highest per capita in the world. Anyone who has driven in that country knows how treacherous Korean drivers are and that pedestrian are NOT given the right of way in any circumstance. Most of these traffic death cases are settled by payments, so these cases are never brought to trial and everything is considered finished. The US army did offer payments (over $160,000 each) to the Shin and Shim families (something also not mentioned by the Korean press) AND they agreed to put Walker and Nino on trial.

Manni mentions that “800 USFK crimes per year” figure, cited by the dubious FRSO.org (Freedom Road Socialist Organization) site (there are hundreds of anti-US sites originating from Korea, BTW). I think these claims are a high and shouldn’t be taken too seriously, especially considering the source. I wouldn’t deny that the USFK commit crimes. They’re humans, after all. I met quite a few of them when I went to Korea and I found some to be assholes, but most were pretty cool. It’s going to be like that everywhere.

However, there are countless more crimes committed by Koreans against foreigners (including USFK personnel) that are never tried:

*An American doctor was murdered in Seoul a few years ago. His killer hasn’t seen justice, and if he has, it was probably a slap on the wrist.

*A Canadian woman was rapped in Daejon during the World Cup and her attacker never saw jail time.

*This summer, three USFK soldiers were kidnapped, robber, beaten and forced to watch the anti-American rally that their abductors dragged them to.

There are plenty of other incidents and they’re never mentioned in the press, but I can even go into more personal examples. A friend of mine (Turkish guy living in Seoul) was punched in the face by an angry Korean man for no reason other than he was white. The gutless puke ran away. Hell, even I was harassed in Seoul on the subway or on the street just because I’m a foreigner. And don’t even holding hands with a Korean girl on a street if you don’t look Korean. That’ll get you a lot of nasty glares, insults and if you run into an angry drunk Korean male (or group of them), perhaps a beating.

I love Korea and its culture and have lots of friends there, but there is a big tone of hypocrisy there and it should be brought up. US forces leaving would be exactly what Dear Leader wants. I’m sure he’s looking at the current state of things and grinning uncontrollably and he should be, especially with many young Koreans blaming the US for a divided Korea.

P.S. ROK has a strong military, but they are no match for the DPRK military machine. If US forces leave, then the ROK can kiss all the investment that goes into the country along with it. Nobody outside (and none of the higher ups in) Korea has faith that the ROK’s forces can combat or counter the North alone. That’s why I’m very worried about the present situation there. I don’t want to see the ROK swept up in a jingoistic patriotic furor that would lead to its fall. Deep down most Koreans know this too, but sometimes they act with emotion first and logic later…
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:31 pm

I should also add that Jimmy Carter tried to pull US forces out of Korea, but the Koreans begged him to make them stay. If Bush decides to do the same thing, I'm sure DJ will come begging Bush to reconsider.
 
Super Em
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 7:55 am

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:34 pm

So since things in Iraq haven't been going according to plans, we need something to keep us busy. Let's see what's going on in North Korea.
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:57 pm

Two girls were killed by 2 US soldiers and those were acquitted. It's true that US soldiers living abroad seem to never be subject to local juridictions, and most of the time are simply acquitted or called back home. They just want those guys to go to be judged in a South Korean court like anybody else who would have killed 2 girls with their vehicle on the Korean territory. As simple as that.

Actually, a couple of years ago a US soldier was accosted by a belligerent Korean man on the Seoul subway. The man took offense because the soldier put his arm around his Korean wife (in Korea, it’s a taboo for a foreigner to date a local girl, let alone marry them). The Korean man spit on the soldier’s wife, called her a slut and whore and then slapped her on the face. The soldier punched the man who slapped his wife, resulting in him getting ganged and beaten by other men who were nearby. This case went to a Korean court. During the trial, the Korean man who started the whole incident claimed that he gallantly came to the defense of the Korean woman whose "decency was affronted" by the US soldier. Him and the other men involved got off scott-free, but soldier AND his wife were sentenced to six months behind bars for "assault". "Justice" was served.  Yeah sure
 
Guest

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:02 pm

The US is doing a service for the many nations whose defense is supplied by American forces. All that we ask in return is that we ajudicate our troops under a legal system they are familiar with.

 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:10 pm

Why are there no protests against the Korean military for killing their own? I'd like to see this man get punished.
 
Guest

RE: South Korea, 250,000 Anti US March

Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:28 pm

TNNH,

The US is doing a service for the many nations whose defense is supplied by American forces. All that we ask in return is that we ajudicate our troops under a legal system they are familiar with.

That is an unreasonable request if the crimes they have allegedly committed are civilian crimes. It really doesn't take a mental genius to figure out the reaction of the people if the military allegedly comit a crime then go hide behind their own legal system.

As they say .. when in rome and all that....



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