galaxy5
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A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 5:39 am

The Daughter of an Arab Warrior Tells Her Tale
By Nonie Darwish
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 30, 2002
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5301

I hope that my story will shed light on the truth in the Middle East to every American, especially to those who subscribe to the erroneous idea that US policy in that region must have caused Islamic and Arab hatred of the West.

My father, who was not a Palestinian, was a very prominent military officer in the Middle East, I will not mention the country for personal reasons. His job was to mobilize Palestinian forces into Israeli territory and cause as much death and damage to Israel as possible. As a small child in the 50's, I remember the horror of being told not to take any candy or fruit from any stranger since it could have a bomb in it. Our house was surrounded with security, a couple of times our train trip was cancelled because the train tracks were bombed. I remember sleeping nights under the bed fearing the sound of bombs and explosions.

I remember going to a Palestinian preschool and kindergarten and the word "Jew" instilled terror and dread into the core of my very being. A Jewish person was portrayed like less than human, a dog, an evil alien from outer space who was about to destroy the world. Jews, they said, had no home because they were cursed by God and the main mission of Islam was to get rid of Jews. As a small child I remember once, at a Palestinian school, asking "why?" The response was that I was a traitor for asking this question and would go to hell, and for the rest of the day the girls in the school did not talk to me. The education was mainly political, teaching kids the hatred of Israel. Arabic poetry was recited daily, with tears in Palestinian children's eyes, on how Palestine was taken from them and how they will retaliate and even die to get it back.

In spite of this atmosphere, my own family which was not Palestinian, did not discuss this hatred. To my mother, and I think also to my father, whom I hardly remember, his job was his duty, nothing more and nothing less, and I don't think he really liked it. My mother said that he was getting sick of his job and was promised to leave his post and get transferred to a post that did not require living on the edge as he and all of us (his family) were. Two weeks before leaving his post he was killed by the Israelis in retaliation.

My loving father died at age 35 and never saw his children grow, let alone his grandchildren. He was robbed of his life and for that I blame the Middle Eastern Islamic culture and the propaganda of hatred taught to children from birth.

Immediately after my father's death many people congratulated (!!!) us as the children of a hero and a shahid "Martyr". I remember I spent many nights crying alone wishing he did not have a cause to die for and I resented the idea of martyrdom. It never made sense to my young mind then since, why should God want us to die for a cause when he gave us life?! I was told that my dad was in heaven now since he died as martyr and schools and streets were named after him. I was shocked to know that almost 90% of streets in the Middle East are named after martyrs. As I walked in my neighborhood I found street after street with men's names who gave their lives to martyrdom! What a disaster to many families and children, but we were taught only to be proud and retaliate! I dreamed my father would probably come back home from heaven since we needed him more than heaven.

In the funeral I saw men crying like children after his death since he was deeply loved by others too. My mother, after the funeral, was left in a severe depression of which she never truly recovered and my childhood together with my siblings was further ruined. We received a generous pension from the government and so my mother was able to send us to the best private schools. I was very lucky to go to a Catholic school run by Irish nuns.

After a short time, the people who had congratulated us were nowhere to be found, and my mother had very little emotional help. Being in the Middle East in the late 50's, it was very difficult for a woman to live without a husband. There is practically no social structure of support for widows. It is a very clan-like society. Your strength and social status comes only from your family and especially your male relatives. Despite the crowded cities of the Middle East and close proximity of living conditions, the people seem friendly but are isolated from one another and believe in envy. There is strict ritual of behavior, but not genuine social cohesion. The culture is dominated by the idea that "I will be cursed by people who will envy me" to the point of paranoia. People have to keep their distance, sometimes even from their own family members, in defense from the Evil Eye. They always point out that "envy" was mentioned in the Koran. They never discussed envy as a sin that hurts the person who is envious, but as a curse that one has to be on guard against. They learn to keep all good news secret and wear blue beads to stop the Evil Eye.

All the good Moslems who were very proud of my Dad stopped visiting after a few weeks. Maybe some women did not want us to envy them having husbands and fathers! The relationships among Moslem women were extremely competitive since, according to the Islamic law, husbands can have up to four wives, therefore visiting and being friendly with widowed women can be very threatening. Women actually could shun a beautiful young widow like my mother. One time I heard a woman telling her husband that he could fool around if he wanted to, but to please never marry another woman. Family loyalties and structure is very different there.

In the Middle East a woman's reputation is everything. Neighbors would watch every step of a woman leaving her house, what time she came home and who visited her. I remember my mother chastised me and grounded me because a boy came to talk to me when I was waiting for her to pick me up from school. She said "don't you care about your reputation, having no father and a boy talking to you on the sidewalk?!" I can't blame her now since she was living in this tragedy herself.

The first day I attended my Catholic school, the nuns told my mother they were praying for her. The first day was very peaceful and I felt love among people for the first time in a long time. It was a different kind of love, a peaceful kind of love that wants nothing in return. Half the class was Moslem and we attended a class once a day to learn the Koran. The "Islam" teacher merely recited verses and spoke of Islamic history. I constantly felt that the God of Islam was always angry at us and there was a constant threat of Hell. We never discussed love and a large amount of time was devoted to the wars of Mohammed and how he won most of them. He and his followers would engage in wars with other tribes from Mecca and kill and loot their caravans. They did that for 20 years until Mohamed won and Mecca surrendered. As a child the stories scared me. I am very appreciative that my mother never insisted on us to practice Islam and she had no hatred toward other religions.

The Middle East culture deprived me of my father and left me and my siblings helpless orphans with no emotional support from a cruel social structure. I grew up with anger and struggled for a long time to keep my sanity. My trust of people and sense of security was shattered and I learned to question anything and everything starting with the Arab hatred of Jews. The Moslems' hatred of Christians came next after Jews. I guess there were too many Arab Christians and perhaps the idea was, take one at a time, get rid first of Jews, then Christians.

Christians were commonly called "Blue Bone", I never knew what that meant, but I do know that it meant something bad. When I grew up and finished college I could not stay in this society any longer. My love of life won and I refused to fall into the cycle of hate and live in a society with clashing contradictions. The culture that does not have enough value for life will not have value for people to get together to advance their economic and social condition. That is why most Middle East and Moslem countries are economic basket cases. Thank God a country called the USA opened its arms to people from all across the world, and I was honored to immigrate to the US over 23 years ago and become a part of this great nation.

I could not adjust to a Middle East culture that doesn't value children's life enough, a culture that orphans its own children and is so obsessed with hatred of Jews that it's ready to sacrifice the morals and health of its family structure over a few miles of land and the city of Jerusalem, which is the holy land of Jews and Christians. Unfortunately, the current Islamic culture is in the process of committing moral suicide.

The U.S.A. set an example to the world on how different races and different religions can coexist with respect despite their differences. I wish Islam would show some grace and accept the Jewish people and the state of Israel. The Jewish people enrich the Middle East culture and tie us to the historical origin of the region. Can you believe what a tragedy it would be if all Jews in the Middle East left? I sometimes daydream of a day in which the Moslems welcome and celebrate the Jewish existence in the Middle East and realize that the Jewish religion is not a threat to them and that it is the origin of both Christianity and Islam. Islam took a lot from Judaism and Christianity and perhaps is afraid of being exposed. Could that be why Moslems don't want to coexist with other religions? Moslems are very sensitive when you point to the fact that their holiest day of celebration is the Bible story of Abraham, his son and the lamb. In reality, they don't need to feel this way since Islam has developed into its own identity and distinction.

A message to all Middle East women: it is in your hands to change your society. Stop being submissive in giving up your husbands and sons to martyrdom. What a tragedy when you celebrate the death of your suicide bombers sons. Value their lives so they might value theirs and maybe they will respect you more.

I plead to the wives and daughters of "Shahid" to listen. The same people who will congratulate you on your beloved "Shahid" father or son are the same people who will criticize you as a loose woman when they see you leave your homes alone without a man to run your life. The people who encourage terrorists and Shahids are cruel and evil people that hide behind the Koran for the sake of attaining power and high office. They are ready to give up these men's lives and maybe throw a little money to the families. That might fool some as support, but wait, in no time you will be alone in bringing up your kids and facing the difficulties of life alone in a merciless society that has no respect for single women. You will be without a husband and your children deprived of fathers growing up. They are ready to sacrifice generation after generation of women widowed at a young age and children orphaned! For what? I remember as a teenager when people criticized our home as having no man in it, and people watching all our moves and criticizing us when we had male guests. In Islam every home is respected by the male figure in it. How about the homes of "martyrs" Usama and Arafat? Has any one of the virtuous Moslem leaders thought of that? Don't be fooled by the glory of being a martyr. I learned that the hard way, but thank God I triumphed. I could not have done it without living in freedom in the USA.

As a child I was asked by many: "Are you going to avenge the killing of your father by killing Jews?" My answer now as an adult is a firm "no". Instead, I will live to expose the dark side of the Moslem culture and Islamic fundamentalists.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ms. Darwish is an American of Arab/Moslem origin and a former editor and translator. Her e-mail is noniedarwish@hotmail.com
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
Scorpio
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 5:43 am

Haven't read it, and won't. The fact that it comes from Frontpagemag says all there needs to be said. If you can find me a credible source, I'll be happy to read it.
 
Marco
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 5:56 am

Scorpio, how about reading it first, then posting?

Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
david b.
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 6:03 am

Frontpagemag is not worth reading. Anyone who reads that crap really needs to get a life. Please find a real source.

Thank You
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Scorpio
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 6:37 am

marco,

Have you ever taken the time to take a close look at Frontpagemag? I have. It's rightout disgusting.

Some titles, of actual articles on this site, to make you get the gist of what this site is about:

-Will the Leftists Kill “Bambi”?
-Environmental Pol Pots
-A Road to Nowhere: The Palestinian Utopia
-Send Pizza to Our Israeli Allies (!)
-Canada: Base for Terrorists
-Why the Left Really Hates Israel
-They Hate Christians, Too
-De-Nazify the West Bank
-Palestinians Cheer Carnage
-War and the Fickle Left
-Hollywood Appeasers
-Anti-Americanism Redux Abroad
-NPR: National Palestinian Radio
-American Newspapers Put PC Before Profit
-100,000 Communists March On Washington To Give Aid and Comfort to Saddam Hussein
-Shame on You America-Hating Liberals
-Leftists in Los Angeles Mobilize Against the War on Terrorism
-ANTI-AMERICAN 9/11 DAY AT UC BERKELEY
-Outed as a Commie
-How the Left Thinks (Or Doesn't)
-Liberalism And Terrorism
-The McKinneycrats and the Vast Left Wing Conspiracy
-The Clinton Curse
-The Secret Thrill of Slapping Hillary
-HilLiary, The Sequel (note the spelling)
-Hillary's Solution: Screw the Children
-The Hillary Conspiracy
-See BS? Hillary-ous
-...

And I only picked a few. So please, don't expect me, or ANYONE, to take anything these idiots write seriously.
 
Marco
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 6:41 am

Fair enough Scorpio.

But how about giving whoever wrote this article the benefit of the doubt?read it and then post your opinion.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
jwenting
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 6:51 am

Whatever, but this post seems quite correct. I know some people will hate to admit the truth in it, as it conflicts with their worldview of ME Islamic fundamentalism being the only true way to live and the destruction of all other religions and ways of life the only worthy goal to live (and especially to die) for.

Denial of the fact that current Palestinian society (and other societies like it) is at the core rotten and based solely on hatred of outsiders won't help you long.
It is a fact that for generations Palestinian children in the region have learned from the day they could talk that Jews and Christians are devils and that dieing in the struggle to exterminate them provides you with guaranteed access to heaven.
It's also a fact that this has led to a society that is completely non-productive (what can one expect from a society where every person from age 4 is trained to become a suicidal fighter expecting to die before age 30) and unable to sustain itself (it's like societies where the women are not allowed to do work and the men refuse to work because of their social status).
I wish I were flying
 
Scorpio
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:04 am

Marco,

But how about giving whoever wrote this article the benefit of the doubt?read it and then post your opinion.

Fair enough; After having read it, here's my opinion:

I can summarize it really shortly: The description this woman gives of the Palestinian society is probably spot-on. There is a lot of hatred toward Jews, and Christians too for that matter. The place is in a self-destructive, violent downward spin. But the thing is: it wasn't always like that. Something set all this in motion. This is a question the writer does not touch with a ten-foot pole, and it is what makes her assessment of the situation worthless.

The bigots of Frontpagemag have used her statement to spread their hateful message, i.e. that Islam is evil, as that is clearly the message we are supposed to get out of this.
 
Guest

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:58 am

As this cannot be verified it needs to be treated as nothing more than propoganda at this stage.




VH-ADG
 
galaxy5
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 8:13 am

ADG
Respect Rating: 55
Posted 2002-12-30 23:58:41 and read 2 times.
As this cannot be verified it needs to be treated as nothing more than propoganda at this stage.




VH-ADG


Wow thats a change LOL everything is propaganda to your view point unless it sides with you.


"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
david b.
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:47 am

Same can be said about your views 5
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
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yyz717
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:57 am

Haven't read it, and won't.

Yup. It must be wonderful to have an open mind, huh?  Yeah sure

This woman's article is actually PRO-arab because it discusses concerns with fundamentalism and lack of freedom. Hence, to say....Haven't read it, and won't.........well, then you must be ANTI-arab.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
david b.
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:17 pm

Please quote from a real source. Thank You
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
galaxy5
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Fri Jan 03, 2003 7:29 am

David b.
Respect Rating: 54
Posted 2002-12-31 03:47:01 and read 20 times.
Same can be said about your views 5


As the same can be said for your views also.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
Guest

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:59 pm

Unfortunately, the current Islamic culture is in the process of committing moral suicide.

 Big thumbs up

-----

Why is this Arab American whose been schooled as a translator and grew up in the west bank not a "real source"???

thank you for answering inteligently
 
DC10GUY
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:43 pm

Scorpio, You make me fell bad to be a "liberal"!!! I support most liberal things like a clean environment, peace, human rights etc. But one of the things that I feel sets a liberal apart form the rest is having an open mind, yours is very negative and closed. I think there is a lot of truth to that letter, I work with a guy from Pakistan and he has told me a lot of things that are the same as what that letter is saying. For a school teacher you have a lot of learning to do.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
david b.
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sat Jan 04, 2003 8:58 am

Frontpagemag is a worthless source of data regardless of who wrote the article. My answer. Thank You Yeah sure

Unfortunately, the current Islamic culture is in the process of committing moral suicide.


Some people are happy to see this happen. Not me.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Scorpio
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sat Jan 04, 2003 9:24 am

Dc10guy,

You might have noticed that I have made several posts in this thread. The last of which dealt exactly with the original article.

When looking into a situation, and being presented with material, the first thing a good historian will do is consider the source. That is precisely what I did. Calling Frontpagemag a credible source is laughable at best. And again, as I suspected, this article teaches us nothing new. The way it is interpreted by Frontpagemag makes it a tool of propaganda for them, to promote their staunch anti-Islam viewpoint.

TNNH,

Why is this Arab American whose been schooled as a translator and grew up in the west bank not a "real source"???

thank you for answering inteligently


The problem is not Ms. Darwish. Again, her description of the situation in the Palestinian territories is pretty accurate. The problem is that Frontpagemag uses her statement to spread its hateful message, i.e. that Islam is evil, and does not bother to even ask the logical question 'How did it ever come this far?' 'What set this in motion?' These questions, which NEED to be asked, are not even touched.

It's a beautiful way to turn an article which is good in itself around to suggest something completely different.

Oh, BTW, TNNH, I can only hope that your  Big thumbs up in the previous post does not mean you are happy with how the Islamic culture is committing moral suicide. That would just be sickening.
 
todaReisinger
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:08 am

to spread its hateful message, i.e. that Islam is evil

Fundamentalist extremist Islam is evil.


* *


...and does not bother to even ask the logical question 'How did it ever come this far?' 'What set this in motion?' These questions, which NEED to be asked, are not even touched.

We all know here how you answer these "questions"; but perhaps you could also answer those same questions in relation with the situation in Algeria, where the same Islamic fundamentalists are committing the same horrors for more than a decade. Well, let's see what you'll have to say, because the "American foreign policies" explanation could hardly apply....
(or you'll perhaps prefer not to answer and call me "an extremist" for the 10000th time...)

I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
Scorpio
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:31 am

Toda,

I indeed refuse to answer your questions, given the way I KNOW you will interpret them.

You might actually gain *some* credibility on these forums if, instead of constantly running around insinuating people to be anti-Semites and telling us just how incredibly bad we are, you would actually try to bring something new to a discussion, any discussion.

You could start by answering the questions yourself:
-How DID it ever come this far, TodaReisinger, always keeping in mind that people were not blowing themselves up in Palestine 60 years ago?
-What set all this in motion?

I am very curious to hear from you what answer you are going to give to these questions. I would, for just this once, really appreciate a non-abusive answer, in which you stick to the topic, don't make any underhanded remarks toward me or anybody else, and don't insinuate just what I might have meant with these questions.

Allow me to ask another, very simple question to you:
-Do you, TodaReisinger, believe that Israel has treated the Palestinians fairly ever since its conception? A simple yes or no will do.

Now, if you can honestly answer these questions, and provide something of substance to this discussion, and if you are willing to cease the insinuating tone of your replies, and the anti-Semite crap, then I am willing to call it a cease-fire, and will stop calling you an extremist.

The ball is in your camp.

As for the situation in Algeria, I have not studied this situation, and can therefore not provide an answer.
 
Guest

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:59 pm

i agree with the statement the current Islamic culture is in the process of committing moral suicide.

i am neither pleased nor surprised this is occuring.

tnnh


 
Guest

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sat Jan 04, 2003 3:02 pm

furthermore scorpio, you agree with ms darwish and oyu agree with her statements. so whats the problem.

the fact that you agree with ms darwish, only lends credence to "frontpagemag"'s views, none of which, by the way, i have found either extremist or appaling. if they are concnered with the degradation of the islamic world and the use of violence and terror by muslims to destroy the west, i completely agree with them and would challenge you to rebut this fact.

tnnh
 
Scorpio
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sat Jan 04, 2003 9:10 pm

TNNH,

"frontpagemag"'s views, none of which, by the way, i have found either extremist or appaling.

That WAS a joke, right?

if they are concnered with the degradation of the islamic world and the use of violence and terror by muslims to destroy the west, i completely agree with them and would challenge you to rebut this fact.

They are not 'concerned', they're looking for a scapegoat.
 
avi
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sat Jan 04, 2003 11:42 pm

Scorpio,
How DID it ever come this far

I’ll give you a hint. This woman talked about things that took place in the mid / late 50’s.
At that time Israel was not in Lebanon, the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. Still, her father job was to help PA to kill as many Israelis as possible.

Can you guess now how come it got this far?

As for the situation in Algeria, I have not studied this situation, and can therefore not provide an answer.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you are sound and look right now?
What exactly don’t you know?
Don’t you know that Moslems in Algeria murdered thousands of … Moslems?
Long live the B747
 
todaReisinger
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RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sun Jan 05, 2003 12:10 am

-How DID it ever come this far, TodaReisinger, always keeping in mind that people were not blowing themselves up in Palestine 60 years ago?
-What set all this in motion?



There's a dangerous movement which was born in Egypt and Saudi Arabia in the first half of the last century: fundamentalist Islam ( the Muslim Brotherhood...I may guess you've heard of this earlier...). They have a very extremist interpretation of Islam and among their religious goals there's the need to Islamize the world; non-Muslims, or what they call "infidels", must be fought: either convert to Islam or die.
This "fundamentalist" conception is believed to be a reaction to the modernization which took place in the Arabian region with the colonial presence. Most Arab countries are independant for over 50 years, and in many there were troubles with Islamic extremists (Syria, Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Sudan...). To get rid of this problem, late Syrian president Assad didn't care much about human rights...and razed to the groung the whole city of Hama in order to eradicate the Islamic threat to his own dictatorial power.

[interestingly, one (former) participant, who was very critical of Israel's human rights policies, didn't hesitate to present the Hama mass killings (>20'000 civilian dead) as an example of how other countries should deal with this problem...illustrating the bad faith shared by many Israel-bashers...]

In Egypt too, thousands of people have been killed and arrested over the last 2 decades in Mubarak's struggle against the Islamic fundamentalists. His predecessor, Anwar Sadat, was assassinated by those extremists; btw, on a leaflet "explaining" why they decided to kill him, the peace treaty with Israel came very low on the list...
The Islamic extremists have killed in Egypt dozens of tourists with the declared intention of ruining one of the country's most important income. Mubarak's dictatorial regime has killed those extremists by the thousands...and nobody found anything negative to say; on the opposite: in a very Israel-critical Swiss newspaper, there was the other day an article praising Mubarak's tough fight against the Islamic threat...(well, 60 Swiss tourists had been killed in Louxor 5 years ago, thus maybe the unbalanced attitude...).

In Morocco, there's also an Islamic threat, but for now Hassan's and his son's regimes have proved to be strong enough...although some Europeans, shocked by the human rights situation there, would like to withdrow the support to this absolute monarchy...

And precisely, in Iran the Shah's regime didn't survive after being abandoned by the West...and this was the first success for the Islamic extremists: it was their first victory, the first "Islamic revolution" which brought them in charge of a whole country. The results are known... And it boosted the Islamic militants worldwide, Khomeiny's coup was called "the Iranian model", a model which need to be exported...and imitated in as many places as possible (it was in 1979; Hama took place in 1982...).


So what's your point...? The "US foreign policies" are responsible for this generalized sh*t? Israel, a tiny country of 20'000 sq km, is responsible for this Islamic fundamentalism violence from Pakistan to Morocco? That's really a ridiculous (and hateful) assumption.



* * *



people were not blowing themselves up in Palestine 60 years ago

The phenomenon of suicide bombs is the DIRECT product of fundamentalist Islam and its sickening conception of martydom. The 72 virgins and all this sh*t are part of these crazy pseudo-religious theories.


There were killings already 70 years ago and earlier...The Islamic fundamentalism arrived only later, after the Iranian revolution (with Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas + Islamic Jihad in the territories).
But, without resorting to suicide bombers, the PLO terrorists have committed the same kind of horrific attacks against hundreds of Israeli civilians and Jewish targets around the world; Arafat & Co are the ones who invented skyjacking and the blowing up of civilian airplanes (remember Swissair in 1970). Arafat & Co launched muderous attacks against schools, busses, restaurants, theaters, markets, cafés, airplanes, airports, cruise ships, Olympic athletes, hotels, appartment buildings and any other civilian places; Islamic extremists have invented nothing new in this field; they are just doing the same coward attacks as their non-religious allies. The only difference is that they're using a more coward and horrific "mean": human bombs. And the greatest problem with these "living bombs" is that they are quite impossible to detect once they're on Israeli territory. [that's btw the reason why the IDF had to reenter PA territories; there's not a week during which one or many "suicide bombers" aren't caught on their way to an Israeli population center].



* * * *


-Do you, TodaReisinger, believe that Israel has treated the Palestinians fairly ever since its conception? A simple yes or no will do.

Any normal person will answer your "question" by the negative; but one should also keep in mind 2 other elements: the Palestinians and the Arab world didn't treat the Jews and Israel "fairly" neither and by far, and the Arab countries have treated their Palestinian "brothers" even less "fairly" than Israel has done. Indeed, the Palestinian problem could have been solved for over 5 decades...
The general Arab hostility against Israel has greatly contributed to the conflictual relations between Israel and the Palestinians.



* * * * * * * *



And now more personnally:

you would actually try to bring something new to a discussion, any discussion.

This remark applies much better to yourself, Scorpio; you are the one who systematically refuses to answer any uncomfortable question; you are the one claiming there are "reasons" behind the Holocaust and refusing to elaborate on your thoughts...with the bad faithed pretext that I am "an extremist"; you are refusing to discuss any topic linked to fundamentalist Islam in which you would find yourself unable to attack the US and Israel (thus writing "As for the situation in Algeria, I have not studied this situation, and can therefore not provide an answer"). You are a European, just like me, and Algeria is twice as close to Europe as Israel...so don't tell me such a BS; and BTW, given your repeated inaccurate remarks on the ME problem, it is clear that you haven't "studied" this situation more than the one in Algeria; you simply have preconceived opinions which are also (at least partially) the result of the strong anti-Israeli attitude of European media and their obsession with this matter.



* * * * * * * * * *




You might actually gain *some* credibility on these forums if, instead of constantly ...

You know, unlike for you, that's my last preoccupation; but if you think to be "credible", you're very wrong. This sentence from you ["Jews, for the most part, were living comfortable lives"] is sufficient alone to illustrate the frightening degree of your "credibility".


* *


then I am willing to call it a cease-fire, and will stop calling you an extremist.

A cease-fire? Well, since you are the only one who declared the war...you're free to declare a cease-fire (even 1000, like Yassir...); but really, I don't care if you are at war or if you call me an "extremist"...




I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sun Jan 05, 2003 12:13 am

What exactly don’t you know?
Don’t you know that Moslems in Algeria murdered thousands of … Moslems?


Of course he knows, but there aren't Israelis, US foreign policies or Sharon to blame...so it makes the whole story totally uninteresting (even though 100'000 people have been killed there, at the doors of Europe).
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
KLAX
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:59 am

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sun Jan 05, 2003 12:26 am

Regardless of whether or not the source is credible, the article is well written and from a very credible author.
Obviously, the article exposes a truth about the ME situation that many like to sweep under the rug. The fact that many suicide bombers are not fighting for a Palestinian State, but rather to kill all Jews.

-Clovis
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4804
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sun Jan 05, 2003 12:44 am

Avi,

I’ll give you a hint. This woman talked about things that took place in the mid / late 50’s.
At that time Israel was not in Lebanon, the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. Still, her father job was to help PA to kill as many Israelis as possible.


The problems started way before the Israeli occupation of these territories. To see how things started, and how they developed, please check out the following link:
http://www.zmag.org/shalom-meqa.htm

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you are sound and look right now?
What exactly don’t you know?
Don’t you know that Moslems in Algeria murdered thousands of … Moslems?


I know what's happening, but I don't know the background to this conflict, thus, I can not point fingers. Pointing fingers without knowing what you're talking about, now THAT would be ridiculous.

Toda,

You answered a different question than the one I asked. You gave us a history of fundamentalist Islam, but you failed to answer why things are so bad in Israel/palestine. I suggest you read the link I provided above too.

This remark applies much better to yourself, Scorpio; you are the one who systematically refuses to answer any uncomfortable question; you are the one claiming there are "reasons" behind the Holocaust and refusing to elaborate on your thoughts...

Actually, if you opened your eyes and actually read what I've written, you'll see that I have most certainly elaborated on my thoughts. Just not when YOU asked. When someone else asked a similar question, I did answer it. You, however, conveniently chose to ignore it, and decided to pick out one sentence, quote it out of its context, in a sole attempt to make me look bad. A sentence which you ow keep repeating at every opportunity you get. So I'll settle this one once and for all: When discussing the Holocaust, and its history, one should know that the general IMAGE people in those days had of Jews was that they were living comfortable lives, and were powerful. So insert that into the discussion, and let's see you dircredit the argument I made in the other thread now.
 
avi
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sun Jan 05, 2003 8:17 am

Scorpio,

I read the article (?), well, most of it, when I “got the picture” I speeded up (at about 70%), and I really don’t know where from to start so I won’t.
In the past I said (maybe even to you) that there is the truth and there is the whole truth. There are so many things that are missing in here and they can simply change the picture and many other things are simply twisted

Did you notice that there is no Palestinian terror in Israel at all? Nothing about the terror even before 67 (and nothing about Egypt contribution to the 67 war), nothing about the terror when Israel withdrew from the GS and WB cities etc, simply nothing.

One side is 100% innocent, didn’t do anything wrong, didn’t do any mistake and the other side is exactly the opposite. Even you can admit that something is wrong in this article.

Long live the B747
 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sun Jan 05, 2003 8:45 am

As a professional journalist I can tell you this: The source is at least the 50% of the information. By checking frontpagemag.com it is clear that it is completely a joke.

A historian, a journalist, a thiniking citizen should always ask "Who says so?" and check the credibility of the source (person/newspaper/TV station/The government/Everyone). Nothing is Gospel truth in our world. Always ask "Why?"

The frontpagemag uses a true story to conclude a false message. It's a widely known method of propaganda and, seriously, we should not even check pages like this. It's obvious that is biased and wrong.

Kostas
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:47 am

So, then quote it back in its context, in a sole attempt to make you look good!


* * *


Of course, if your "sources" are Norman G. Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Edward Said & Co...your "positions" are more understandable.

If you rely on an extremist minority to forge an idea on a matter, don't be astonished to appear biased and ignorant....



* * * * *



Pro-Israel propaganda has argued that most Palestinians actually entered Palestine after 1917, drawn to the economic dynamism of the growing Jewish community, and thus have no rights to Palestine. This argument has been elaborated in Joan Peters' widely promoted book, From Time Immemorial. However, the book has been shown to be fraudulent and its claim false.

"it has been shown" by...Finkelstein...Ha ha ha ha you're really somewhat amuzing;


*


Some was acquired illegally and some was purchased from Arab landlords with funds provided by wealthy Jews in Europe. Even the legal purchases, however, were often morally questionable


How was it acquired illegally?

But well...even if legal, it was "immoral"... The authors are definetely unbiased...


*


As Zionists arrived from Europe, the Muslims and Christians began to adopt a distinctly Palestinian national identity


Yeah indeed, this "national identity" had NEVER existed before, N E V E R.

That's an interesting point...


*


Anti-Semitism in the Arab world was generally far less severe than in Europe.

Well, it would have been difficult to have a more severe anti-Semitism than in Europe...Nevertheless, Jews, like other religious minorities in Islam, were discriminated and lived in the conditions of dhimmis.



There was Palestinian anti-Semitism, but no people will look favorably on another who enter one's territory with the intention of setting up their own sovereign state. The expulsion of peasants from their land and the frequent Zionist refusal to employ Arabs exacerbated relations.

BS; most of the lands acquiered by the JNF were NOT cultivated. That's what has made the JNF famous worlwide: to transform entire regions (semi arid or infested with malaria) into productive agricultural zones or into forests.


*


They were willing to give full civil rights (though not national rights) to the Jewish minority in an independent Palestine

...yeah, they could have lived as "dhimmis" (in the most optimistic hypothesis...)


*


Actually, Palestine just narrowly avoided being overrun by the Nazis, so Jews would have been far safer in the United States than in a Jewish Palestine.

One more stupid assumption...since the problem was precisely that NOBODY wanted to accept the Jews; hundreds were sent directly from the Swiss borders to the extermination camps. And the fact remains, that Hitler didn't invade the region (BTW, "Palestine" couldn't have been "overrun", since such a country never existed; the British forces could have been vanquished)


*


By war's end, the Jewish community in Palestine was well armed, well-organized, and determined to fight.


That's a blatant lie, nothing more than revisionnism.


The Palestinians were poorly armed, with feudal leaders.

But the surrounding Arab armies were big and heavily equipped: Syria, Egypt and in particular Transjordan and its "Arab Legion", equipped and formed by the British.

*


Ben Gurion stated, "when we become a strong power after the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and spread throughout all of Palestine."

Well, this "quotation" seems very doubtful...and anyway, the FACTS proved that Ben Gurion didn't act this way after the establishment of the State...; in 1949, the newly formed Israeli army had the possiblity of regaining the Jewish Quarter in the old city of Jerusalem, but one man said "no"...Who was this man? David Ben Gurion. Quite in contradiction with this "quotation".


*


Most of the fighting that ensued took place on territory that was to be part of the Palestinian state or the internationalized Jerusalem. Thus, Israel was primarily fighting not for its survival, but to expand its borders at the expense of the Palestinians.


What an intelligent military analysis! The Israelis should have waited, just like in 1967..., to have the Arab armies inside Tel Aviv and Netanya before defending themselves...(btw Tel Aviv had been bombed by the Egyptian air force at the beginning of the war)

That's such a nonsense, it's sickening.


*

For most of the war, the Israelis actually held both a quantitative and qualitative military edge, even apart from the fact that the Arab armies were uncoordinated and operating at cross purposes

My God, what a mountain of lies! You just need to read the numbers in order to realize up to which point this text is full of lies.
HOW could a tiny Jewish population outnumber 7 Arab armies...? That's really a summit of bad faith.

*

After Israel's victory in the 1948-49 war, there were several opportunities for peace. There was blame on all sides, but Israeli intransigence was surely a prime factor.

Sure, by definition...


*


But those who understood the military situation -- in Tel Aviv and the Pentagon -- knew quite well that even if the Arabs struck first, Israel would prevail in any war.

Sure...as it was greatly proved 6 years later. Israel was not far from losing the Kippur war; finally, thanks to a late American weapons supply and to Gen. Ariel Sharon, the outcome of the war was changed. But the price was terrible: 2'800 Israelis lost their lives in this war and much more were injured and/or psychologically destroyed for the rest of their lives. -The Six-Day war claimed 600 Israeli lives. (obviously not enough for the authors of this incredible text).

*


But after Egypt and Syria unsuccessfully went to war with Israel for the limited aim of regaining their lost territory

Great, Zmag has a precise knowledge of Egypt's and Syria's war plans...a weird knowledge should I say; this is simply ridiculous and it is becoming grotesque.


*


The Palestine Liberation Organization was formed in 1964


which means 3 years before the Six-Day war...


*


The PLO had many factions, advocating different tactics (some carried out hijackings) and different politics.


"hijackings"...Not only "hijackings"! That's an unacceptable attempt to diminish the atrocities committed by the PLO: hundreds of Israeli civilians have been assassinated by PLO terrorists, sent by Arafat or one of his distinguished colleagues. Munich in 1972 was not a mere "hijacking"; the Swissair Coronado which exploded over Zurich in 1970 was not simply "hijacked"; the El-Al passengers at Rome and Vienna airports were not "hijacked" but shot dead in 1985 like the 26 passengers massacred at Lod airport in 1972; the 37 travellers aboard Egged busses on the coastal highway were not "hijacked" but burnt alive in 1978; the inhabitants of Netania and Naharyia appartments as well as the residents of Tel Aviv's Savoy hotel were not "hijacked" but cold bloodly killed; and this only a very small list of the PLO's "hijackings".
The authors of this piece of sh*t don't even have the minimal morality to write "some carried out murderous terror attacks"; it's really on an abysmal low level.


*


By 1976, however, the PLO view had come to accept the international consensus favoring a two-state solution.

That's false; the official PLO position was the following: as a first step, yes to a Palestinian State in Cisjordan and Gaza...but this would only constitute the basis for the final struggle: a Palestinian State on the "whole Palestine, from the river to the sea". This goal was confirmed in 2000 by late PLO official F. Husseini...


*


Israel had a freer hand to invade Lebanon in 1982 (where the PLO was based)

And of course...there's no mention of the endless murderous terror attacks which were launched from Lebanon against Israeli civilians, which were the reason behind the Lebanon war.

*

Guns and knives were banned

yes sure...and the victims were killed with flowers........


*


But Peres, noted his adviser Yossi Beilin, had an even more limited view than Rabin, wanting any future Palestinian state to be located only in Gaza

It's really ridiculous; Peres is the one responsible for the Oslo mess; he is the so-called "visionnaire" of a "new ME". He is the advocate of a Palestinian State on virtually all the WB and GS. Rabin was much less enthusiastic about these ideas.
And Rabin's quotations are of no relevance, since he has often made exactly the opposite of what he "declared"...


*


In May 1996, Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu who was openly opposed to the Oslo accords was elected prime minister. Netanyahu reneged on most of the already agreed on Israeli troop withdrawals from occupied territory
They were willing to give full civil rights (though not national rights) to the Jewish minority in an independent Palestine


Those who have written this stupidity should be ashamed of themselves; there is simply NOT A SINGLE WORD about the horrific waves of terror attacks which killed hundreds of Israelis each year since the start of the "Oslo peace process". These atrocities are not worth being mentionned; but they are the "reason" why this "peace process" failed. They are the reason why Netanyahu got elected, and they are the reason why Ariel Sharon was able to unexpectedly fulfill his desire to become PM.

But well, it doesn't fit in this heavily biased paper...


*


influential commentator Ze'ev Schiff

influential...and heavily leftist commentator...; one more "myth" in this text...it's really an impressive creation!


*


What caused the second Intifada?

On September 28, 2000 Ariel Sharon, then a member of Parliament, accompanied by a thousand-strong security force, paid a provocative visit approved by Barak to the site of the Al Aqsa mosque.
The underlying cause was the tremendous anger and frustration among the population of the Occupied Territories


Not at all; the "underlying" cause was the decision made by Arafat during his return journey from Camp David, as publicly explained by his Information minister; after Camp David, Arafat was indeed in a very uncomfortable situation, he was the bad guy who refused Barak's far-reaching offers. And he knew perfectly well what he had to do in order to regain the world sympathy...
Although he sent waves of terrorists into Israeli busses, discos, cafés, restaurants, shopping malls or markets, killing hundreds of Israeli civilians, he knew he would nevertheless regain popularity at home and abroad.

Thus began the second Intifada...
(which, btw, began before Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount)

The situation was not good in the territories, but it is 1000 times worse now...


*


and then responded by attacking his security forces, who might have allowed him to crack down

they would have suddenly begun, after 8 years, to crack down on terrorists....That's great! In reality, many terror attacks were carried out by Palestinian "policemen" supposed to fight terrorism.


*


...a Hamas suicide bomber struck. Sharon, no doubt fearing a groundswell of support for the Arab League position, responded with massive force

I guess everybody remember there has been once "a" Hamas suicide bomber...What a shameful and pitiful "source" you serve us here!

130 Israeli dead in a one month period, that's not "enough" to launch a military operation against the terror infrastructure...Obviously not in the author's view, since they don't even bother to mention the horrors Israel went through at the time....


*


Both of these were done, however, and Israel's security was enhanced rather than harmed.

Ha ha ha, that's yet another summit! The 650 Israeli dead since September 2000 are the DIRECT consequence of the security zone withdrawal. And the situation in south Lebanon is ready to explode anytime: Iran has sent there, through Syria, immense quantities of weapons including thousands of rockets with various ranges, able to reach Haifa and its industrial suburbs as well as population centers in central Israel. The situation is extremely dangerous, but of course it is more fashionable to write that Israel's security was "enhanced"; it's absolutely false.


* * * * * * * * * *


I have lost a lot of time responding to some of the most blatant lies contained in this text. I don't know what zmagazine is, but the author's positions and all the persons he's quoting are known anti-Zionists or so-called "Zionists" of the extreme-left polital spectra, calling themselves "post-Zionists" (!). Maybe you'll answer as accustomed in one line stating that I am an "extremist", without answering any of my points...it's so much easier...


* * *


I know what's happening, but I don't know the background to this conflict, thus, I can not point fingers.

If you think you have a better knowledge of the ME problem's background, you're wrong; but you nevertheless "point fingers". I can only wonder why.


Concerning your last question ("why human bombs?"), I did answer in my last post.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:52 am

Even you can admit that something is wrong in this article.

I won't of course answer in place of Scorpio, but according to all what he's writting here, I fear he won't admit there's something wrong in this article; indeed, he gave this link to all of us, in order to show us the "truth" (and the "reasons" to the blind terror campaign launched by the Palestinian leadership...).

I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4804
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Mon Jan 06, 2003 12:25 am

Toda,

Have you read this at the end of the article:

Stephen R. Shalom teaches political science at William Paterson University and is the author of Imperial Alibis (South End Press).

Now, I tend to lend a bit more credibility to a political science teacher who backs up his claims by providing sources and such, over someone who just shoots down his remarks down by stating they're all lies, however failing to back any of it up. If you have unbiased sources that back up your claims, please provide them.

"it has been shown" by...Finkelstein...Ha ha ha ha you're really somewhat amuzing;

I've searched for some reviews on both books mentioned, from various sources, and have learned that both books have received positive reviews. None of the reviewers actually found Finkelstein's book fraudulent, as you seem to believe. I guess you could support either, but just dismissing one as you did in the quote above, well, let's just say that does very little to convince me.

Yeah indeed, this "national identity" had NEVER existed before, N E V E R.

That's an interesting point...


Please learn how to read. That is not what the paper says, only that it began to develop distinctively at that point.

Well, it would have been difficult to have a more severe anti-Semitism than in Europe...Nevertheless, Jews, like other religious minorities in Islam, were discriminated and lived in the conditions of dhimmis.

Your point? No-one claimed otherwise.

BS; most of the lands acquiered by the JNF were NOT cultivated. That's what has made the JNF famous worlwide: to transform entire regions (semi arid or infested with malaria) into productive agricultural zones or into forests

On this point, many disagree. Many of the lands were already cultivated by the Arab population. http://www.wworld.org/programs/middleEast.asp?ID=314
While in Palestine in 1891, when Jews owned less than one per cent of the land, the Jewish moralist and philosopher Ahad Ha'am observed that "throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed." In 1930, when Jews owned about four per cent of the land, Zionist official Arthur Ruppin wrote that displacement of Arab farmers was inevitable "since there are hardly any more arable unsettled lands in Palestine."
http://www.ukar.org/fahel01.shtml

...yeah, they could have lived as "dhimmis" (in the most optimistic hypothesis...)

Do you have any sources supporting this theory, or is it, as I suspect, just your personal opinion?

One more stupid assumption...since the problem was precisely that NOBODY wanted to accept the Jews;

I don't see what is so stupid about this assumption. It seems to be quite accurate, as the US was never in danger of being conquered by the Germans, whereas the land which today constitutes Israel was. This is a purely theoretical assumption, precisely made to show that the refusal to allow Jewish refugees to flee to e.g. the US, to then later support a Jewish state, was quite hypocritical.

That's a blatant lie, nothing more than revisionnism.

How's that? Can you prove him wrong?

"Zionist forces were integrated with British intelligence and became the police enforcers of draconian British rule. A "quasi-police force" was established to provide cover for the armed Zionist presence encouraged by the British. There were 2,863 recruits to the quasi-police force, 12,000 men were organized in the Haganah, and 3,000 in Jabotinsky's National Military Organization (Irgun). [35] In the summer of 1937 the quasi-police force was named the "Defense of the Jewish Colonies," and later the "Colony Police."

Ben Gurion called the quasi-police force an ideal "framework" for the training of the Haganah. Charles Orde Wingate, the British officer in charge, was, in essence, the founder of the Israeli army. He trained such figures as Moshe Dayan in terrorism and assassination.

By 1939, Zionist forces working with the British rose to 14,411 organized into ten well-armed groups of Colony Police, each commanded by a British officer, with an official of the Jewish Agency as second in command. By the spring of 1939, the Zionist force included sixty-three mechanized units, each consisting of eight to ten men. "
Source: http://www.balkanunity.org/mideast/english/zionism/ch03.htm

But the surrounding Arab armies were big and heavily equipped: Syria, Egypt and in particular Transjordan and its "Arab Legion", equipped and formed by the British.

That's not the point, is it?

Well, this "quotation" seems very doubtful

Look it up. Run a search for it. You'll find plenty evidence. An example: "[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107 & One Palestine Complete, p. 403). And more: we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine " -- Ben Gurion, p.22 "The Birth of Israel, 1987" Simha Flapan.

That's it for now. I'll respond to the other points when I find the time.
 
avi
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:05 am

Scorpio,

Toda,

Have you read this at the end of the article:

Stephen R. Shalom teaches political science at William Paterson University and is the author of Imperial Alibis (South End Press).

Now, I tend to lend a bit more credibility to a political science teacher who backs up his claims by providing sources and such…


I wish you could read Hebrew. There was a great story in Israeli newspaper about those who teaches political science and a follow up story about them that was published only last Thursday (Toda, I guess you did read it on Mahariv).

It is not that I believe that it would have change anything about the way you see things (after all you didn’t response to my last paragraph) but still, it was an interesting story.

Long live the B747
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4804
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:42 am

Avi,

I never claimed Israel was the sole responsible for the present situation, I always said and supported the fact that both sides bear responsibility, unlike others, who see nothing wrong with everything Israel is doing, and has been doing for many years now, and put all the blame with the Palestinians. The article I provided gives a very interesting view on the situation, and shows the Palestinian perspective. I does not claim there is no Palestinian terrorism, it merely tries to answer the question 'why are the palestinians so pissed at Israel?'

I wish you could read Hebrew. There was a great story in Israeli newspaper about those who teaches political science and a follow up story about them that was published only last Thursday (Toda, I guess you did read it on Mahariv).

So? What's your point? Care to tell us what it was about, instead of just misteriously mentioning this fact, as if it had any meaning?
 
avi
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: A Story About The Middle East And Turmoil

Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:33 am

So? What's your point? Care to tell us what it was about, instead of just misteriously mentioning this fact, as if it had any meaning?

I don’t want to start a second front in here nor I’m not going to translate it (and this is exactly what I have to do if I want you to understand it). In general its like I said, the story is about “teachers”, like the article writer, who hide many things and twist others so it will look like only one side is to be blamed.

Now, on one hand you said I never claimed Israel was the sole responsible for the present situation… and on the other hand you sent me To see how things started, and how they developed and give a link to an article that does put the sole responsible on Israel (and it looks like you adopt it in two hands)

Sorry, it doesn’t and can’t go together.

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