cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:03 am

Through all the discussions about the possible war with Iraq, I have stopped to think for a second. Why are we going to attack Iraq? Yes Saddam is evil, and he does need to go, but we have a more serious problem in another country, Saudi Arabia. Most of the September 11 hijackers were Saudis. Saudi Arabia has a regime just as corrupt as that of Iraq. Al Qaeda was based in Afghanistan, and trained in the radical Islamic schools in Pakistan. Who funds these schools? None other than the Saudi government. To end terrorism, we must attack the root of the problem, and this root is Saudi Arabia, not Iraq. The Saudi regime needs to and to be replaced by a non-radical pro-Western government.
 
MUC-PIX
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:06 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:10 am

Countries giving away cheap oil and airfields cannot be bad and do not have to face the human rights charta. We only see what we want to see-and sometimes the world is to complicated for some guys... isn`t it?
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:12 am

Cba, you say Saudi is just as evil as Iraq. So if you have two equally evil regimes, doesn't it make sense to go after the one with the most dangerous weapons and most willingness to use them?
"Shaddap you!"
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:16 am

And can anoyne tell me why Yemen needs Scud missiles please? If that shipment was bound for Iraq the US would quite rightly have sent the whole lot to the bottom of the Arabian Sea. So why not if its for Yemen?

Scotty
 
MUC-PIX
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:06 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:21 am

JetService: This is an argument, that`s a serious point.
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:33 am

It seems to me that Saudi Arabia IS a non-radical, pro-Western government when compared to the rest of the region.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
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RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 2:07 am

I would tend to agree with Cba, but would add that Iraq IS our enemy, and say that Saudi Arabia is not a friend, or an ally, (except when it benefitted them), and have a very currupt regime as well.I find it hard to trust anyone in that region, because like the rest of us, green rules.....green of money that is.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 2:25 am

In what way is Iraq an enemy of the US? Has Iraq ever attacked the US, threatened to, or been suspected of planning to? Now or ever?

No.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 2:44 am

Yes Iraq is evil and is our enemy, but Saudi Arabia can be tied to 9/11, Iraq can't. By attacking Iraq, Bush is simply finishing his father's leftovers. Saudi Arabia is the real problem. It is they who are funding the terrorists, not Saddam.
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:02 am

"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:22 am

I think that President Bush and PM Blair are going to have show the world their cards before or during any military action. I understand the importance of protecting sources and methods of intelligence but we risk the loss of moral imperative if the world is not shown evidence that Saddam actually posseses or is in the process of building WMD.
 
N79969
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:37 am

I think both Iraq and Saudi Arabia threaten the United States. Iraq threatens the entire Persian Gulf including our allies with its military power. A nuclear-equipped Iraq will almost certainly use its might to blackmail and seize land from neighbors. When that happens, the rest of the world would be dragged into it.

Saudi Arabia threatens us by their two-faced approach. They are the laboratory culture where most of the world's Islamic fanatisicm was hatched and they continue to nurture it. At the same time, they pretend to be on our side.
 
747-451
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 5:50 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 5:26 am

Iraq is not as much as a problem as is Saudi Arabia. Saddam is very, very obvious-a lunatic, craving power and status using toture, terror etc etc..all tha characteristics of a meglomaniac. SA on the other hand is much more dangerous kind of "enemy". They have the world at their feet by oil and turn the supply on an off as they see fit and have the power to ruin economies and commit blackmail by having the hands on the tap. Secondly and most perniciously, they use the proceeds of the oil to pay for terrorism with support of puppets, madrassas etc etc. Atta may have been in Iraq in 2000, but 15 were Saudi's. They are not our friends nor are they to be trusted. The US has even been protituted by them by having bases in their country under the guise to "protect" them and their horrible regieme.
 
Marco
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RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:05 am

It seems to me that Saudi Arabia IS a non-radical, pro-Western government when compared to the rest of the region

It seems to me that you know nothing about Saudi.

Cba,

Excellent post. I agree with you 100%. Iraq doesn't support terrorism (Saddam's party is secular, not Islamic), binladen hates Saddam and vice versa.

We need to concentrate on Saudi and its population.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
FlyinIllini
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2000 1:27 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:53 am

Marco, Cedarjet, Cba....none of you know of what you speak. Iraq is absolutely a supporter of terrorists and specifically the Al Queda network. As I stated in another post...the only evidence I need for war with Iraq, Iran, Syria, N. Korea, etc....is videotape of 9/11. Any of you who don't think these governments supported these terrorists in one way or another should speak to someone with the CIA or FBI. Trust me on this. Saudi Arabia is an odd problem. A government that cooperates with the US for obvious reasons...with a population full of Western hatred. I have no problem with lumping them in. God bless USA.

Dubya


 
vafi88
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:32 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:04 pm

We can't judge from a fact that most of the terrorists were from saudi arabia that all of it is a big terrorist group.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
Guest

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 4:41 pm

I strongly agree that quite possibly Saudi Arabia posses the greatest threat to American independence and security of any country in the world.

On May 25 1961, President Kennedy said: I believe this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before the decade is out, of landing a man on the moon.

When today will our president say I believe this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before the decade is out of being completely independent of foreign oil

?????????

TNNH
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 6:38 pm

^&%&^$@^%$!!!!

You should read yourself !! What a bunch of nonsense.

What I read is that the USA must attack Saudi Arabia because this is not a "Pro Western" country.
Wow ! I'm impressed by that. That just means that you are a real threat to a big part of the world and should be considered as a terrorist.

And read also "God bless USA" which always make me laugh. Why would God be more with the USA than with Lichtenstein ? Perhaps you'll tell me.

 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 7:46 pm

It seems to me that Saudi Arabia IS a non-radical, pro-Western government when compared to the rest of the region.

Yeah. A nation where the oppression of its own people is imposed by law (and an ally of course) is a nation where we can blind our eyes to in order to topple an enemy.



Check these websites out and read the information (thoroughly) it may enlighten you.

Galaxy, these are government sites. The problem is that we cannot trust the US government. Not after all the methods it used in the past years.


the only evidence I need for war with Iraq, Iran, Syria, N. Korea, etc....is videotape of 9/11.


That shows a lot about your view of justice and use of force.


Any of you who don't think these governments supported these terrorists in one way or another should speak to someone with the CIA or FBI.

LOL!!!


Kostas

 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:03 pm


As for further information I can point you to highly reliable site. Here is the URL

http://www.dubyadubyadubya.com
 
Herman
Posts: 224
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:04 pm




Hey if u guys wanna look at the root of the problem then i suggest we look why many Saudis hate the Americans & the west. Maybe after intensive research we could safely say that the problem lies with America's foreign policy.


just a thought....
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:25 pm

I hate Saddam. But whoever said Iraq sponsors al Qaeda is a complete moron. Al Qaeda and Saddam loathe each other - Saddam is completely the opposite of what Al Qaeda is about. Al Qaeda seeks to impose Islamic rule, and defend the cause of Muslims. Saddam is a military man, who has killed many Muslims and who is hardly religious at all. Saddam is the kind of man Al Qaeda want out!!!!! Saddam and Al Qaeda are sworn enemies.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
FlyinIllini
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2000 1:27 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:46 pm

It amazes me how quick the Eurosissies are to bash America and the pro American responses. Why am I not surprised at all that Sebolino is a Frenchie. France should kiss the ground America walks on and thank God every day for the United States. And Ovelix....wow..Euro journalist...another uninformed puppet. God bless USA is just a short prayer. Get over it. Dubya is my nickname due to my first name Warren..first letter..."W". I wasn't personally attacking anyone in here..yet you blast responses without any opinion or facts of your own. Kostas.......Do you not think these government have been involved in supporting the terrorists? If not, you need to find some new sources and dig a little deeper for your info. I happen to have VERY reliable sources with UNBELIEVABLE information. It pays to have friends in high places. As for not trusting the government...its funny...when the shit hits the fan anywhere in the world....who you gonna call? USA. One word can describe what the rest of the world feels about the USA....JEALOUSY.

Warren aka Dubya
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:56 pm

I agree with you FlyinIllini.

Ovelix,

You 'distrust' US government sites and then post that nonsense. Actually I think the Greek government is far more crooked and duplicitous than US government has have ever been. From everything I have read, Greece is actually a bigger bastion of rabid anti-American sentiment than France. So I am not surprised by your posts.
 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:13 am

I was obviously joking about the site N779. When someone posts as reliable information US government links what the rest are expected to do? Find Sadam's site?

And when you agree with someone who says that
"the only evidence I need for war with Iraq, Iran, Syria, N. Korea, etc....is videotape of 9/11"
...then I have a very good idea of what person you are.

Actually I think the Greek government is far more crooked and duplicitous than US government has have ever been. From everything I have read, Greece is actually a bigger bastion of rabid anti-American sentiment than France. So I am not surprised by your posts

Well, Greece had the utter "luck" to be "saved" by a US orchestrated military coup some years ago which resulted to a 7 year dictatorship. Bill Clinton himself apologised for that in his visit here so don't try to contradict this.

As for the anti-american chestnut, gimme a break. Everyone who doesn't kiss the soes of your war-mongering President is anti-american to you.

USA is a global power. A global power cannot defined by anything else but its military power. USA has no choice than to engage to a war. An empire that war created through wars can only be maintened with war.

Kostas




 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 1:30 am

I'm not bashing America but some people who have a very strange vision of freedom. Killing everything which is not "pro-American" or "pro-Western world" or "pro-European" is not precisely what I call promoting freedom.
Now, if you talk about where the money of terrorism come from, that's another subject. Perhaps it's just that some people are not capable of clearly expressing their thoughts. Perhaps they don't know really what they think !
 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 1:38 am

Eurosissies

France should kiss the ground America walks on and thank God every day for the United States

Ovelix....wow..Euro journalist...another uninformed puppet

One word can describe what the rest of the world feels about the USA....JEALOUSY

That's what you call "intelligent converation", huh?

Kostas

 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 1:47 am

Ovelix,

I was agreeing with his assertion that Europeans will never pass up a chance to bash the US. I still do.

"USA is a global power. A global power cannot defined by anything else but its military power. USA has no choice than to engage to a war. An empire that war created through wars can only be maintened with war."

This is the typical anti-American utter nonsense to which I refer. What empire? Empire-building is a distinctly European specialty.

Let's be clear about one thing- the US does not want war. We want Saddam disarmed. War is the only way to do it. He has had 11 years or 132 months to comply and he has not. If it were not Bush's military buildup, the IAEA would be in Vienna guessing about Saddam's intentions rather than inspecting sites in Iraq. The world has President Bush to thank for that whether they like him or not.

Anti-American sentiment in Greece is well-known. As a journalist, you must know about it. I do not have access to the on-line Wall-Street journal so I have to resort to this link. Mr. Michas's book was also reviewed by the Economist.

http://www.ahiworld.com/bbs/messages/50.html


Oh yes, President Clinton received a real warm welcome in Greece, right?

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/19/greece.clinton.02
 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:04 am

N79969

My answer is taken directly from the URL you pasted.
From the CNN: "5,500 protesters, mostly communists gathered in front of the Parliament building in the gathering dusk of Friday to protest Clinton's visit"

That's far from representing the 5.000.000 Athens citizens and 11 million Greeks. You cannot base anti-americanism to this. What about this instead??
http://www.timeeurope.com/magazine/2003/0120/cover/story.html

Empire-building is a distinctly European specialty
And USA military bases around the world apparently isn't.

Kostas





 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:19 am

If it were not Bush's military buildup, the IAEA would be in Vienna guessing about Saddam's intentions rather than inspecting sites in Iraq

Well, that seems correct. And we all know that the threat of using force usually brings the result we want.

But the whole thing here is not about the inspections. Is about regime change. Apparently many nations want Saddam to disarm or (most likely) get out of the country. USA thinks that war is the answer. Others think not.

There is no legitimate reason of why the West should ATTACK Iraq. Human Rights? In Saudi Arabia the laws are stricter. WMD? Pakistan, India, NK and noumerous other countries have them too. Nuclear weapons? There is no clue they have them.

Biological weapons? All bombed and destroyed in the 1991 campaign and Iraq is in no condition to develop them again. Military threat? Iraqi army is in so miserable condition that soldiers cannot even hold their riffles the right way. Al-Qaeda links? No links, sorry.

Kostas


 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:19 am

"And USA military bases around the world apparently isn't."

No. Absolutely not. That is a ridiculous attempt at drawing a parallel. We do not govern Japan, South Korea, Germany, the UK, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, or Greece. They are sovereign countries. If we packed up and left East Asia today, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan would start a nuclear arms race tomorrow. They want us there despite occasional conflicts and anger.

Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, and others were ruthless in their empire building. No reasonable person can compare their colonial occupations to the current US military presence overseas.

When Saddam was threatining Saudi oil fields, who invited us into protect them?

Who benefitted from the military protection against the USSR? The rest of the planet. Germany and Western Europe were relieved of much of the burden of having to defend against the Soviet threat.

The Greek anti-Americanism I am referring was evidenced after 9/11 and during our action to take out Milosevic. To the best of my knowledge, the Greeks were far more sympathteic to Milosevic than to the civilians he slaughtered like animals. Many Greeks were enraged by the US war to oust him. I find that very disturbing and I think it is ample evidence to substantiate the claim that Greece is pretty anti-American.

Read the AHI link.

 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:28 am

US Officials have repeatedly said that if Saddam disarms, that would count as regime change. The offer is still open to Saddam. We ask for regime change because it is beyond obvious that Saddam cannot be trusted. He has refused to comply with UN resolutions for 11 years. Yet Europeans would rather cast aspersions at President Bush than deal with real villian.

"Pakistan, India, NK and noumerous other countries have them too. Nuclear weapons? There is no clue they have them. "

None of these countries is ruled by a person quite like Saddam Hussein. In 23 years, he has invaded 2 neighbors and has used chemical weapons. Even according to Blix, he is trying to get some questionable items. The world should err on the side of caution when dealing with Saddam.

"Biological weapons? All bombed and destroyed in the 1991 campaign and Iraq is in no condition to develop them again. Military threat? Iraqi army is in so miserable condition that soldiers cannot even hold their riffles the right way. Al-Qaeda links? No links, sorry."

All Saddam needs to do is launch one nuclear/chemical/bio tipped Scud to start hell-on-earth. One launch could do it. He would only a crew of a few men to launch the missle regardless of the state of his other soldiers.
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:32 am

Hey if u guys wanna look at the root of the problem then i suggest we look why many Saudis hate the Americans & the west. Maybe after intensive research we could safely say that the problem lies with America's foreign policy

No, the world doesn't have to change for a small, intolerant country such as Saudi. They have to take a look at where the world is going, turn to democracy and respect human rights, and perhaps even join the human race (gasp!).

Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
FlyinIllini
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2000 1:27 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 3:21 am

Okay Kostas....lets hear the facts. Do you have any? You have been to Iraq? You have evidence proving all of the weapons were destroyed? They haven't been attempting to aqcuire nuclear capability? You have evidence that Iraq has never supported terrorism? I know better. Money, transportation, training sites, weapons, protection...all have been provided by Iraq and the other countries I mentioned. The goal is prevention. Should we just stay out of it and allow things to fester? We tried that before...it doesn't work. What kind of person am I Kostas? You don't have a very good idea of anything, let alone what kind of person I am. You imply you are so much more intelligent and informed? The United States protects, feeds, finances, educates, and rescues the rest of the world..then is lambasted for it's policy of protecting its own interests. EVERY Empire in history was created with war. So what if it is about a regime change? So what if we are protecting our own interests? Isn't that what all governments do? Wasn't there once a British Empire? A Greek Empire? A Roman Empire? An Egyptian Empire? A French Empire? We are just more able and willing to impose our might when it is needed. There will always be conflict. There will always be trouble in the Middle East..there always has been. There will always be resentment for the US protecting its own interests. If the US wanted to control oil...why didn't it stay in Kuwait? Why didn't it march through Iraq last time?

"Empire building is a distinctly European specialty
And USA military bases around the world apparantly isn't."

Is this a complete sentence? What the hell does it mean? You call this "intelligent conversation"? huh?

Who is killing everything that isn't pro Western Sebolino? This is simply a matter of eliminating a threat. It is easy to sit back and wait for the worst to happen.

Dubya
 
Guest

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:15 am

Maybe after intensive research we could safely say that the problem lies with America's foreign policy.

what a cop out. The innumerable failings and catastrophes that is today's arab world are solely caused by America? No, I don't think so.

TNNH
 
747-451
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 5:50 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:15 am

Yeah,

its American Foreign Policy that is fostering the spread of radical Islamicism, sure right....  Yeah sure
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:32 am

Blaming American Foreign Policy entirely is out of order IMHO. Sure, the US has made mistakes but so has every other country. The one thing about the Americans is that I believe that in general their heart is in the right place. In principle, Americans are peace lovers. I think sometimes the US population is misinformed about the rest of the world, but at least the US Government isn't telling it's people to kill the infidel scum (i.e. Canadians Big grin)
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:32 am

Since perception is often reality, our support for Israel encourages young Muslims to sign up for Jihad. There is no denying that.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:39 am

The trouble is that perception is shaped by tyrants such as the House of Saud and violent demagogues such as OBL. As TNNH infers, if the cable is broken in some middle easterners house, it's America's fault in their minds. Everything is blamed on us. The Palestinian issue is a legit grievance.
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 8:49 am

Hey if u guys wanna look at the root of the problem then i suggest we look why many Saudis hate the Americans & the west.

This is by far the best remark ever said on this forum.

The day before yesterday on Good Morning America, Prince Abdullah was asked why 85% of Saudi's hate America. His response was simple and concise. Because of America's foreign policy that pledges full support to Israel.

It's so obvious.

They have to take a look at where the world is going, turn to democracy and respect human rights, and perhaps even join the human race (gasp!).

Marco, you make me laugh. As one who has lived in Saudi Arabia for 11 years, you really humor me. I'm laughing and disgusted with that comment.

Respecting human rights? Saudi Arabia respects human rights, they don't torcher there people, they don't execute there own people. If you break the law, you'll suffer the consequences. Consequences in Saudi Arabia are harsher, but that is because they believe in tougher tolerance than the west. Many countries are the same way. But do they hang you if you commit a crime? Do they chop off your head if you commit a crime? No, and if you honestly think that, I'm going to laugh for the rest of the week thinking about it. As for changing democracy, you don't have the right to decide for the Saudi people.

As long as Saudi Arabia is respecting human rights (which they are, they're a very tolerant country with very little crime as a result), there is not a thing the world can do to change Saudi Arabia.

Marco, how would you feel if Great Britain was trying to change the United States into a monarchy? Would you accept that? Now, obviously Great Britian is a democratic monarchy, but it's just an example.

No country has any right to decide how Saudi Arabia should govern itself. These are internal issues that the country must deal internally and no one else has the right to interfere. That's like a stranger coming into your house.

After living in Saudi Arabia for 11 years, I had a good time and life was good. I wish that Saudi Arabia WAS a democracy and had more rights for the people, but that's not for me to decide. Only the Saudi people can decide that and they don't want anything changed. They are happy with the way Saudi Arabia is governed and they don't want any changes. Only a small minority want change. Keyword, minority.

Do you see France trying to solve issues within the United States? Do you see any foreign country trying to interfere with the way the United States government is run? No, the answer is no. The same goes for Saudi Arabia.

You and I don't have the right to choose what kind of government Saudi Arabia should have nor does any country in the entire world. Only Saudi Arabia can choose it's government.

That sentence of yours really made me laugh Marco. I'm not sure if it's ignorance or if you have a grudge against Saudi Arabia. If it's the latter, a biased attitude is not warranted. You are free to dislike the way Saudi Arabia is run. I prefer the idea of democracy too, but that's not for me and you to decide.

its American Foreign Policy that is fostering the spread of radical Islamicism, sure right....

That's what Prince Abdullah said and as one who has lived in the Middle East, I wholeheartedly agree.

You don't see China being targetted by radical Muslims, do you? You don't see Russia being targetted by radical Muslims, do you?

The fact is the Middle East as a whole has a great dislike of America. Not the American people, but it's pro-Israeli government.

You know what? If the United States stayed out of the entire Israeli-Palestinian issue in the first place and if the United States did not pledge full support for Israel, the Middle East would not hate the United States. There would be no reason to hate the United States. Same reason why there is no reason for the Middle East to hate Russia and China.

A war with Iraq would only increase tensions in the Middle East and even around the world since most of the world is entirely opposed to the war. A war with Iraq will only create more hatred towards the United States and will result in the death of Iraqi civilians and US soldiers.

I don't like Saddam and as one who has lived in the Middle East and visits the Middle East every 2 years, the rest of the Arab people dislike Saddam as well. It's a misconception that the Arab people sympathize Saddam because they don't.

Saddam fired scuds at Saudi Arabia. You think Saudi Arabia will take that? He threatened Kuwait and other Middle Eastern countries.

I oppose Saddam just as much as everyone here. But a war is not warranted and not needed.

As TNNH infers, if the cable is broken in some middle easterners house, it's America's fault in their minds. Everything is blamed on us.

LOL, that's really funny........

Don't use the term "us". It's not your fault nor any other American's fault. It's your governments fault.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:09 am

Marco, you make me laugh. As one who has lived in Saudi Arabia for 11 years, you really humor me. I'm laughing and disgusted with that comment.

You're humored, disgusted and laughing at the same time?

BTW I lived in the middle east most of my life...

Respecting human rights? Saudi Arabia respects human rights, they don't torcher there people, they don't execute there own people.

You mean they don't chop off the heads of homosexuals?

If you break the law, you'll suffer the consequences. Consequences in Saudi Arabia are harsher, but that is because they believe in tougher tolerance than the west. Many countries are the same way. But do they hang you if you commit a crime? Do they chop off your head if you commit a crime? No, and if you honestly think that, I'm going to laugh for the rest of the week thinking about it. As for changing democracy, you don't have the right to decide for the Saudi people.

Maybe the Saudi people have to say something about that...but wait they're not allowed to!

As long as Saudi Arabia is respecting human rights (which they are, they're a very tolerant country with very little crime as a result), there is not a thing the world can do to change Saudi Arabia.

Funny boy.

Tolerant country? Tolerant of what exactly? Islam only? Extremism?

Marco, how would you feel if Great Britain was trying to change the United States into a monarchy? Would you accept that? Now, obviously Great Britian is a democratic monarchy, but it's just an example.

Very bad comparison. We're talking about human rights here and the Saudi dictatorship.

No country has any right to decide how Saudi Arabia should govern itself. These are internal issues that the country must deal internally and no one else has the right to interfere. That's like a stranger coming into your house.

Saudi has been and still is spreading a militant version of Islam to the rest of the world, including the Philipines, the rest of the Arab world, etc...they are affecting the whole world.

After living in Saudi Arabia for 11 years, I had a good time and life was good. I wish that Saudi Arabia WAS a democracy and had more rights for the people, but that's not for me to decide. Only the Saudi people can decide that and they don't want anything changed. They are happy with the way Saudi Arabia is governed and they don't want any changes. Only a small minority want change. Keyword, minority.

Ignorance...

How do you know the Saudi people are happy. Most Saudi's are poor, illiterate, nomadic people. It's only the thousands and thousands of princes/princesses and the rich families that are happy.

Do you see France trying to solve issues within the United States? Do you see any foreign country trying to interfere with the way the United States government is run? No, the answer is no. The same goes for Saudi Arabia.

France, USA, etc are all peace loving democracies. Saudi is an extremist country.

You and I don't have the right to choose what kind of government Saudi Arabia should have nor does any country in the entire world. Only Saudi Arabia can choose it's government.

You like repeating yourself...

That sentence of yours really made me laugh Marco.

Yeah well get over it.

I'm not sure if it's ignorance or if you have a grudge against Saudi Arabia.

It's not ignorance at all. I lived in the middle east for a lot longer than you have.

If it's the latter, a biased attitude is not warranted. You are free to dislike the way Saudi Arabia is run. I prefer the idea of democracy too, but that's not for me and you to decide.

It does concern me when my life is at stake because Saudi is exporting an extremist militant version of Islam.
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Marco
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RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:14 am

You don't see China being targetted by radical Muslims, do you?

That's because China has a very efficient way of dealing with Islamic radicals.

You don't see Russia being targetted by radical Muslims, do you?

Um, what about the Chechnyans?
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BA
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RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:19 am

Marco, remember that last argument we had? That ended up nowhere?

I'm not about to continue the same discussion. I have a Chemistry test tommorow and I'm not going to waste my time arguing with a biased anti-Saudi person like you.

The amount of bullshit you just said is incredible. You should right a book. I'd love to read it during my spare time.

I will reply to one part as it is incredibly humorous:

Most Saudi's are poor, illiterate, nomadic people.

LOL. And I assume there primary mode of transportation is camels, right?

Your incredible Marco. Either you pretend to have lived in the Middle East, or you like to spread a bunch of false info to express your hatred for the Middle East.

Quite humorous.

Like I said, you should write a book. I'd love to read it in my spare time.  Big thumbs up
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:23 am

That's because China has a very efficient way of dealing with Islamic radicals.

Yeah, it's so efficient, you're absolutely right. Because they have no problems with Islamic radicals. They basically don't have to do a thing! Quite efficient, I agree with you.

Um, what about the Chechnyans?

Chechnya is not about religion, you should know that. It's about the fact that they were the only land denied independence after the fall of the Soviet Union while countries such as Ukraine, Kazakistan were given independence.

Don't mix 2 topics to try to prove your points Marco, that's a sign of weakness.

Well good day, I've got to get studying.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Rai
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RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:23 am

You don't see China being targetted by radical Muslims, do you?

Not true at all, China has a HUGE problem with radical Islam in the Western provinces. However, as mentioned above, they have an "effective" way of dealing with it. Makes the Israelis look like "peaceniks". But then you don't see too many anti-China protests...  Insane
 
747-451
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RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:27 am

"No country has any right to decide how Saudi Arabia should govern itself. These are internal issues that the country must deal internally and no one else has the right to interfere."

except when that governement is complicit in funding of terrorist acts, supports terrorist groups, launder and conceal terrorist funds, sets to destabilize other sovreign nations with the export of radicalsim and when that government commits acts outside of it's borders that are harmful to others.

However, what goes on within it's borders is their own affairsand people who visit Saudi Arabia must have expectations that they should act within its laws-since Saudi Arabia is entitltles to have it's own system of government that applies to it's citizens and it's visitors.
 
Marco
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RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:32 am

Yeah, it's so efficient, you're absolutely right. Because they have no problems with Islamic radicals. They basically don't have to do a thing! Quite efficient, I agree with you.

They do have problems but they have more effective ways of dealing with these problems.

Hint: They don't take them to court  Big grin

Um, what about the Chechnyans?

Chechnya is not about religion, you should know that. It's about the fact that they were the only land denied independence after the fall of the Soviet Union while countries such as Ukraine, Kazakistan were given independence.


Why is it then that OBL and his thugs constantly mention the Chechnyans and the Russian "infidels"? Why is it that when the Chechnyan terrorists took over a moscow theatre the only hostages they were willing to release were the MUSLIM ones? Why is it that Checnyan extremists have declared a JIHAD on the Russians?

Don't mix 2 topics to try to prove your points Marco, that's a sign of weakness.

The only weaknesses are:

1- Your lack of knowledge concerning the issues being discussed (despite having lived in Saudi for 11 years)
2- You constantly resorting to personal insults.

Well good day, I've got to get studying

G'day!
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Marco
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RE: Our Enemy Is Not Iraq

Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:39 am

Marco, remember that last argument we had? That ended up nowhere?


I'm not about to continue the same discussion. I have a Chemistry test tommorow and I'm not going to waste my time arguing with a biased anti-Saudi person like you.


It's the truth. I know it hurts, but BA you've got to face the truth.

The amount of bullshit you just said is incredible. You should right a book.

Right a book? It's write.

I'd love to read it during my spare time.

How about addressing my points instead of replying with emotional rhetoric?

I will reply to one part as it is incredibly humorous:

Most Saudi's are poor, illiterate, nomadic people.

LOL. And I assume there primary mode of transportation is camels, right?


Oh hahaha, that one got me on the floor.  Insane

Most Saudi's ARE poor, illiterate (unemployment is a problem at the moment as well as a huge national debt), and many are still ignorant, nomads.

Your incredible Marco.

Yes according to lots of people, THAT I am.

Either you pretend to have lived in the Middle East, or you like to spread a bunch of false info to express your hatred for the Middle East.

Oh yes I pretend to have lived in Dubai for nine years. I pretend to have been born in Kuwait. I pretend to be an Assyrian from Iraq. I'm really working with the CIA, damn you just blew my cover!

 Insane

Quite humorous.

Like I said, you should write a book. I'd love to read it in my spare time.


maybe I will...
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