Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:40 pm

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Like Bush says, I am not opposed to diversity in and of itself. I am one of those evil, spoiled rich white guys that's gotten to where he's at at the expense of minorities.

I've trampled on them.

I've beaten them.

I've singled them out and kept my foot down on them.

Right.  Insane

And if you believe any of the above three scenarios, then I've got some nice tropical rainforest in Alberta I'd like to sell you.

Seriously though, Like I said, I'm not opposed to any kind of divesity. I'm not going to go out of my way and single out some poor Latino or Black and keep him or her down. I've got better things to do with my time.

However, should one try and go after my livlihood-especially if they try and play the race card, then you bet your red, white, and blue ass that I'm going to fight back.

I won't take bread off your table. But goddammit. You better not try and take mine either.


However, a forced "quota" is tantamount to racism.


Anyway, here's the article:
http://www2.ocregister.com/ocrweb/ocr/article.do?id=20752§ion=NATION_WORLD&year=2003&month=1&day=16

"I strongly support diversity of all kinds, including racial diversity in higher education," Bush said in a nationally televised address. "But the method used by the University of Michigan to achieve this important goal is fundamentally flawed. At their core, the Michigan policies amount to a quota system that unfairly rewards or penalizes prospective students based solely on their race.

In putting himself on the side of three white students who assert they were denied admission to undergraduate and law programs in favor of less-qualified minority candidates, Bush moved to the front lines of the nation's heated debate about affirmative action.

Amen. I guess skills and qualifications are not longer top priority.

Civil-rights activist Jesse Jackson said Bush "is intentionally flaming racial fears for wedge politics.

Listen Mr Jesse Jackoff, why not address the issue instead of spewing out a bunch of heated rhetoric? You're the one that always likes to stir up the shit pot by playing the race card.


Michigan's undergraduate school rates potential undergraduates on a 150-point system, with black, Hispanic and Native American students receiving a 20-point bonus.

Why is this necessary? If this isn't blatant favoratism, bias, and racism, then I don't know what is. Why do they need "bonus" points? Does that suggest that they are unqualified to pass the tests on their own?

Or is racism only an issue if it puts minorities at the "disadvantage"?

Please spare me the "well you've had it well all your life" speech that I've heard so many times. I may or may not have, but what's that got to do with anything?

I guess maybe two wrongs don't make a right.

Or does it?

I guess it depends on who you ask.

After all, a Black Person who receives a raise or preferential treatment is not about to speak up and say "Hey....you're discriminating! I got a 20% raise and the whitey only got a 5%".


Right.









 
ryanb741
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:53 pm

Affirmative action is appalling. If you are good enough for the job you should get it regardless of colour - and there should not be any bonus if you are not white. That in itself is racist - it says that non whites are too stupid to pass without help! If you feel you have been discriminated against on racial grounds, then go see a lawyer - the law of the land should protect against racial discrimination.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
DC10Tony
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:59 pm

"Bush Says No To Affirmative Action"

AMEN.

Affirmative action is stupid. Just because you're not white doesn't mean you should get special treatment when applying for a job. Qualifications and experience should be the deciding factor in who gets a job, not the color of one's skin.
 
PPGMD
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:01 am

We don't have anyone opposing it yet, but for the person that will come and oppose it.

None of my family has been in the states before the Civil war, heck my mom is naturalized. Why should I pay for crimes that I never committed?

This same thing goes for reparrations, I will refuse to pay anything in reparations, in fact I would take any money that I would otherwise give them, double it, and pay for a lawyer to challenge the consituationality of it.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
KROC
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:08 am

Let me say this, (and watch me get flamed like Matt D in a gay bar). While I DO NOT support afirmative action, I understand the need for it. If racism wasn't such a problem in the U.S. and many people (and just one person is too many) base hiring practices on peoples race, or etnicicity. It is people like that, that create the need for a program like Afirmative Action. Ones skin color should have no bearing on whether they get a job or not, but too many times the opposite happens, and because someone is say black, they don't get hired. Its a necessary evil.
 
airworthy
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 7:05 am

RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:13 am

Good Side To ECONOMIC Affirmative Action

I think the USA should have ECONOMIC affirmative action. Meaning, if you are in the lower economic brackets, you should receive special treatment. Racial affirmative acion is an attempt, but should be improved.

 
saintsman
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:15 am

What we need is a campaign against political correctness. Its affecting everywhere these days. It causes more resentment than it cures. What is required is not PC but PCM - political common sense!
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:18 am

And while you're all spouting off your high falutin deep thoughts, aka Jack Handy, here is something for both you and George "My Daddy got me into Yale and Harvard" Bush to ponder on:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2660845.stm

Colour still marks US job market

The news is bleak for America's non-whites

People with white-sounding names stand a better chance of getting a job in the United States, a new survey has found.
Job-seekers with names like Greg and Anne get 50 % more replies from employers than black-sounding applicants such as Ebony and Rasheed, academics in Chicago and Boston found.

They sent out 5,000 fictional applications in response to newspaper job ads, carefully picking names on the basis of birth certificates.

"Our results so far suggest that there is a substantial amount of discrimination in the job recruiting process," the professors concluded in the study, which was reported by The Associated Press.

They found that "white" applicants received one response, whether by phone call, letter or e-mail, for every 10 CVs, but "black" applicants with equal credentials received one response per 15.

The professors at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology also concluded that companies purporting to be "equal-opportunity" were no more likely to respond to black CVs than other firms.

Other "white" names used by the professors included Neil, Brett, Emily and Jill, while among the "black" names were Tamika, Aisha, Kareem and Tyrone.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:22 am

KROC, I wholeheartedly agree with your post. While affirmative action is indeed racism itself, it is the lesser of two evils. Let's face it: the whole 'jobs should be based on qualifications, not race' is very nice, and true, but it's just not happening. Minorities are constantly discriminated against when applying for a job, not just in the US, it happens just as much in Europe too.

So while indeed it is not a 'good' solution, it's better than to act like the problem isn't there.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:32 am

Well said KROC. Well said.

The parameters and scale of the University of Michigan's policy have outlived the era they worked in...(and the stubborn tenacity with which status quo has been weakly legitimized was never helpful to begin with).

But I support the right of any body to argue that it can only better itself by expanding points of view. If 35 white suburban kids in a classroom discuss race, or socio-economics, or culture, or history based on what they've been taught in a middle class white environment, what kind of learning is going on compared to say, if it were 34 suburban white kids and one black kid from East Detroit? Or two black kids?

The idealogical war shouldn't be waged against mixing up the viewpoint pool....only wisdom comes from doing that (even for conservatives..conservative values able to stand up against noble and rational counter-points only become stronger and more valid, do they not?).

No this war should be waged on the techniques and parameters of how to go about ensuring diverse viewpoints.

Based on that I support the efforts to overturn...and re-tool, not cast off the reasons behind... Michigan's policy.
 
Matt D
Topic Author
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:45 am

Well fine. So be it. If AA is the "lesser" of two evils as you call it, then oh well.

But it sounds to me like this is only a superficial remedy that does little to address the REAL problem of racism.

Sure AA may be of some economic benefit to Minorities in general. But look at all the baggage it brings with it:

Minorities will still be resented and treated as inferior because of the racist nature of AA.

Minorities achievements will never be taken seriously. Or for that matter, they won't get credit for it because many people will [rightly] assume that they got what thy got based on a political quota as opposed to actual hard work.


A Black Man in a Mercedes Benz will forever have the stigma of "being a pimp or drug dealer" or "driving while black" and will always be hassled and treated with acertain amount of condescention as opposed to true equality.

And above all else, so much for "equality". For in the end, these "independent, equal" people are still going to be dependant on the evil white man.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
 
Guest

RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:04 am

"None of my family has been in the states before the Civil war, heck my mom is naturalized. Why should I pay for crimes that I never committed?"

I'm in pretty much the same boat (although it was my grandfather that was naturalized). Indeed, why should I be punished for actions that neither I nor my relatives had part in? I'd agree that blacks have had a tough go of it, but there's nothing I could have done to make it easier for them.

Afirmative Action: Perhaps it's just my niavety, but I don't see that blacks have major obstacles to getting jobs--at least those who are willing to get themselves educated for them. In other words, I don't believe that a black person who was the best applicant would be turned down because of his or her skin color. I certainly wouldn't do that if I were an employer. Maybe if there wasn't all this "being kept down by the man" rhetoric that pitts the classes against each other, there wouldn't even be a need for affirmative action.

'Speed

 
jaysit
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:12 am

There is this fallacy that college admissions policies are a precise Science with tight parameters which are suddenly violated and torn asunder when it comes to admissions policies for black and hispanic students. However, the whole admissions policy is a very imprecise, subjective process in which socio-economic background, high school of graduation, gender, extracurriculars, alumni quotas, etc are thrown in. Admittedly, race is a factor too. Is it fair to assume that a black kid from the south side of chicago with an A- average and a score of say, 1150 on the SATs, could make a case for herself to be admitted into the Univ of Michigan over a white kid with an A average and a score of 1300 on the SATs (with a good dose of Kaplan coaching thrown in)? Perhaps. Its tough to do well on the South side of Chicago. I'm not sure any of us here could do that well. Some would argue that when race is just one factor then it is not affirmative action. Others would say that it is a slippery slope from strict quotas to "race as one factor." President Bush says that all kids in the top 10% of their schools in Texas get admission into the UT system, irrespective of the school they attended. But isn't that affirmative action as well, albeit in just a different form? Can you ever discount the factor of race and class and gender in the admissions process? I'm not sure you can, unless we move to a strict numbers based admissions policy you see in numerous European and Asian countries.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
airworthy
Posts: 752
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:17 am

Its tough to do well on the South side of Chicago. I'm not sure any of us here could do that well.

Well said, that's why I think we should have economic affirmative action.

unless we move to a strict numbers based admissions policy

This is what most public colleges used. They put in all of your numbers into a formula and they admit the ones with the highest score.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:30 am

I have not read the White House Brief but from what I understand, Bush is not taking a swing at affirmative action in general.

Michigan gives African-Americans, Latinos, and Native Americans 15 (or 20) points automatically for their racial background during the admissions process. Essentially, your race is like lettering in a sport or being a Merit Scholar. I think the White House is challenging these crude numerical criteria that are tied soley to race.

"I don't believe that a black person who was the best applicant would be turned down because of his or her skin color."

I am certain that this still occurs. Although the majority of people are not racists, it only takes a few bigoted individuals to really mess things up.
 
Superfly
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:49 am

I thought the conservatives would be angry at the President for weighing in on a frivolous lawsuit.
This case against the University of Michigan is nothing more than a frivolous lawsuit because the only reason these White students who were denied acceptance are complaining is because they think it's because they are White.

I guess this is part of Bushman's election stratagy for 2004. I looks as though he will run a Jessie Helms style campaign by race baiting. This goes to show that Bushman has NO economic plan to really stimulate the economy. Therefore more people will be out of work and the only thing he can do is pit Whites against Blacks to win. Why do you think Republicans do well in the South even though it is still the poorest region in the country?

Bushman has a lot of nerve considering it was a Black man that helped his Pappa get elected in 1988 (Willie Horton).
Bring back the Concorde
 
jaysit
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:59 am

...This is what most public colleges used. They put in all of your numbers into a formula and they admit the ones with the highest score...

Perhaps, some do. But most play the numbers game for a first cut-off. Then, there are so many students with similar numbers that the admissions office is forced to use subjective criteria.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
N79969
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:01 am

Superfly,

I reiterate that Bush is targeting a very specific and crude practice at Michigan. I would not call that lawsuit frivolous at all.

"This goes to show that Bushman has NO economic plan to really stimulate the economy. Therefore more people will be out of work and the only thing he can do is pit Whites against Blacks to win. Why do you think Republicans do well in the South even though it is still the poorest region in the country?"

What? That was a poor attempt at parlay. The South has become Republican within the last 20 years and the South has prospered in the last 20 years. Atlanta, Charlotte, and other sunbelt cities are booming.

Finally, I think Bush has some genuine diversity in his cabinet at the highest levels. Clinton really like to promote his "cabinet that looks like America" but some of his minority appointees were just terrible. (Others were good though)
 
jcs17
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:03 am

Lets get one thing straight: All affirmative action is racist, no matter what we are applying it to--whether it be college applicants or job applicants. It is totally unfair that a student with less qualifications than someone more qualified would gain admission to a college instead because of skin color.

Also, do you really think that the kid that was only admitted because of affirmative action will have a better chance of success in college? I think not, the opposite is most definitly true. We might even be throwing these kids into schools that they arent even ready academically to attend.

Is it fair to assume that a black kid from the south side of chicago with an A- average and a score of say, 1150 on the SATs, could make a case for herself to be admitted into the Univ of Michigan over a white kid with an A average and a score of 1300 on the SATs (with a good dose of Kaplan coaching thrown in

No. The numbers arent the same. I dont care about race, if it were up to me, you wouldnt have those stupid bubbles for race. There is a very good chance that the kid on the south side isnt even ready for a rigorous program like at Michigan...I'm not saying the kid should go to community college, but I think that by allowing her admission to a school like Michigan you are putting her at a disadvantage.

President Bush says that all kids in the top 10% of their schools in Texas get admission into the UT system, irrespective of the school they attended. But isn't that affirmative action as well, albeit in just a different form?

How is that affirmative action? Actually, it is every school except UT-Austin.

This is an absolutely great move by Bush on a very racist program.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
MD-90
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:09 am

Where the heck did this come from? This goes to show that Bushman has NO economic plan to really stimulate the economy. You must have some awesome reasoning behind that statement.
 
N79969
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:18 am

Jcs17,

The system used in Texas is affirmative action. Think about it. If a kid from a poor area gets a 1000 on the SAT and is in the top 10 %, he could displace a kid from a wealthy area with a 1250 who is in the top 15% of her class. I do like this system though because it seems to neutralize some of the background differences that would otherwise penalize all socially disadvantaged kids on a systematic basis. It is also race neutral on its face.

I do not like the Michigan system. It really dehumanizes applicants in my opinion.

Finally, I think it is desirable for society to help that south Chicago kid get into the upper echelons of academia rather than keeping him or her trapped in what will almost certainly be lower socioeconomic status. The cycle that kept that kid in a Chicago slum has to be broken somehow. Otherwise our country ends up with a permanent underclass.

I think you do raise a good point though. More needs to be done to prepare minority students for college well before SAT time.
 
airworthy
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Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 7:05 am

RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:49 am

The system used in Texas is affirmative action. Think about it. If a kid from a poor area gets a 1000 on the SAT and is in the top 10 %, he could displace a kid from a wealthy area with a 1250 who is in the top 15% of her class. I do like this system though because it seems to neutralize some of the background differences that would otherwise penalize all socially disadvantaged kids on a systematic basis. It is also race neutral on its face.

Yeah, that is a good program.

Otherwise our country ends up with a permanent underclass.

That's why I said we need economic affirmative action. Because the only way most of those kids in poor neighborhoods can get out, is if they can run a 3.7 40 or they can make great songs.



 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:50 am

Jcs - I've been to school with minority kids who had SAT scores well below the norm for the school. Most did just fine, many graduated cum laude, and many of those went on to attend prestigious law and professional schools. As a matter of fact, it goes to show how arbitrary SATs are in determining success either in school or life thereafter. I taught Princeton Review SAT and LSAT classes for kids who could pony up more than $ 1500 per class, and believe me we raised their scores enough to make them competitive for admission to the school of their choice. This is why I like the subjective admissions policies of American universities over their European and Asian counterparts. Unfortunately, large university systems like U of Mich. don't have the luxury of going through every application and have to resort to arbitrary number assignments - 30 points for race, 10 points for extra-currics, etc, etc.

Whats more, many colleges have pre-freshman summer programs for kids from disadvantaged schools and neighborhoods (most happen to be black and hispanic students) to get them ready for rigorous college classes. For most of the part, these programs seem to work very well. Admittedly, I have seen some students flunk out of school, but then every program - including AA - comes with an inherent failure rate.

In any case, I doubt if the White House amicus brief will make much of a difference. The Justices are seldom swayed by political appeals.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Guest

RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 3:01 am

Seriously though, Like I said, I'm not opposed to any kind of divesity. I'm not going to go out of my way and single out some poor Latino or Black and keep him or her down. I've got better things to do with my time.

Really Matt D? Really?

Repeat after me.

L-E-O-P-O-L-D

Any argument you may have had on anything to do with racial issues is basically blown out of the water with that. And you say above you have better things to do with your time?

It is for people like you Matt, that affirmative action is basically needed as an official policy in your country.

 Insane
 
FlyinIllini
Posts: 59
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 3:26 am

It seems as though it is assumed that racism is basically a US phenomenon. Well I have a news flash for everyone...it isn't. Racism is as old as the human race. It has always been and will always be...period. Silly programs like the US Affirmative Action is simply a concession by the US government. A handout. That's it. Poor America..be it white, black, latino, has been programmed to accept handouts. Something for nothing. It is a vicious cycle that is only broken within the family circle when a family patriarch decides "enough is enough", and teaches the family to work for their success instead of it being handed to them because of their color or socioeconomic status. The leaders of the black community in the US lobby for this type of treatment. When have you ever seen Jesse (where's the cameras) Jackson knee deep in the poor city projects teaching the families a work ethic? Never. He only teaches dependence, dependence on handouts and special treatment. Why do you not see Asian Americans...Vietnamese refugees in particular...whining about this? Because their families are proud and work for what they have.

You get what you work for. This country has boundless opportunities for anyone and everyone...you just have to be willing to work for it. If you are faced with racist treatment...learn how to effectively deal with it. It isn't going away.
 
N79969
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 3:48 am

"It isn't going away."

You're right and herein lies the problem. Affirmative action is not quite the handout that you make it out to be. It makes race one factor in addition to existing criteria. I am not a fan of the program but I don't think it is fair to call it a handout like welfare or farm subsidies.

It started out as an outreach program to people who are not in the "loop." For instance if you are an alumnus of Yale, your kids are legacy and have a better chance of getting in than the aforesaid kid from South Chicago. If mom and dad buy a new library for Yale, the kid's got early decision. You know how this works. This is how President Bush went to Yale-- his father was an alumnus. For the majority of American, disproportionately minority, building a library is not an option.

For many poor kids (again disproportionately minority) neither parent went to college or may not have finished high school. I am sure this plays a part in whether the kid goes to college. Like I said above, the cycle needs to be broken and it has to start somewhere. Why not give this poor kid a break? I agree with the President that the criteria should be economic and not purely racial as some would have it.

I agree that Jesse Jackson is a POS.

 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:01 am

There are those who are calling Dubya a racist, and they are calling him a hypocrite. But wait a minute. Who's the real racist?

By Affirmative Action aren't White Americans simply perpetuating Manifest Destiny? Aren't we saying that blacks, and other minorities are too stupid to get into good colleges and universities on their own so it is up to us Whites to set up Quotas and "generously" let some of our "Little Brown Brothers" (a term used in the early 20th century by an American politician justifying US imperialism in the Philippines)???

Affirmative Action will simply perpetuate a stereotype that minorities are inferior and need special treatment to get anywhere in life. It will ensure racial differences/tensions/ignorance for years to come. It will do more harm than good in the long run.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:03 am

If you think AA has gone too far in the US, visit the Netherlands.
Here there are laws stating that each and every company should have a minimum percentage of minorities on staff in each paygrade (and women too, I believe it's 15% minorities and 10% women minimum).
If you don't make that percentage you get a hefty fine and are blacklisted as a company that discriminates against minorities.

To give some examples of how that works out:
- Rotterdam police until recently hired on principle ONLY people from minority groups (preferentially women from minority groups). If there weren't enough applicants with the right qualifications for the jobs available they didn't invite white people, they lowered the qualifications.

- the company my father chaired until a few years back had almost no minority workers at all (except housekeeping staff). The area where they operate is almost entirely white (rural agricultural area, minorities tend to congregate in cities) and there were simply no minority applicants to the jobs they had on offer (most requiring agricultural university, which had maybe one or two students entering from minority groups each year (universities here can't turn down students except for some very popular curiculums which are handed out on a first come, first serve basis (more or less))). At one point a black person applied for a job requiring a university degree. His CV showed he hadn't even finished primary school. When they turned him down on that, he went to court claiming he was discriminated against because he was black (the company won, other companies were not so lucky).
That company got an excemption from the law, because they could not fill the quota due to outside circumstances. They're one of the few companies that got such treatment.

- Longterm unemployed people are liable for government sponsored re-education into other jobs which are in more demand than the ones they are qualified for. For white males the term to be liable for such training is 5 years, for females from minority groups it is 6 months.
I wish I were flying
 
Superfly
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:38 am

N79969:
Not a poor attempt at all. As more and more people loss there jobs, send in resumes, get passed up for job opportunities, Bushman needs a scapegoat to pass the blame to. Race baiting plays well in hard economic times. I guarantee that if the economy was in good shape or showing signs of improving Bushman wouldn't even open his mouth on this subject. I am curious as to why he is poking his nose in a States Rights issue anyway. I guess he feels the Federal government knows better.  Yeah sure
Sure the South has some cities that are making progress, but the South overall is still an economic bottom-feeder. Social issues tend to move people in the South more than in the North. Look at the results.



Jwenting:
Sorry to hear about the plight of White Males in The Netherlands.  Yeah sure

Bring back the Concorde
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:05 am

Not a poor attempt at all. As more and more people loss there jobs, send in resumes, get passed up for job opportunities, Bushman needs a scapegoat to pass the blame to. Race baiting plays well in hard economic times. I guarantee that if the economy was in good shape or showing signs of improving Bushman wouldn't even open his mouth on this subject.

*Sigh*...there goes that liberal equivilant to Rush Limbaugh again. I doubt this is about economics. Of course you fire those accusations at him. Apparently everything Bush does, or the GOP for that matter, is part of some vast-right-wing fascist conspiracy meant to destroy America. Put the pipe away. Bush would be yakking on this subject economy or no economy. He has an opinion on it.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
N79969
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:13 am

Superfly,

Judging by the depth of your cynicism, you are far, far beyond persuasion. No matter what evidence or explanation I or anyone else could provide, you would still insist that Bush is a race-baiting fiend. Your hatred of Bush pervades throughout your posts and has made you incapable of objectively judging the man or his motives. Correct me if I am wrong. If I am wrong, I will debate this with you.
 
Guest

RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:18 am

"Your hatred of Bush pervades throughout your posts and has made you incapable of objectively judging the man or his motives."

Yup, that's about the size of it. Sorry, Superfly, but the guy's got a point.

'Speed
 
Guest

RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:30 am

Matt D: I am not opposed to diversity in and of itself.

I hate people who say "in and of itself". It's the quickest way to determine the person your talking to is a complete phony idiot.

TNNH
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:51 am

N79969:
Your hatred of Bush pervades throughout your posts and has made you incapable of objectively judging the man or his motives.


Come on, you can do better than that. Bush knows exactly what he is doing. Hate is a very strong word. I don't hate anyone but I have zero respect for the man.

Moving forward.


Have you ever thought for a moment who the number one beneficiaries of Affirmative Action are? It isn't Blacks or Latinos. Middle and upper-middle class White women are the ones who made the most gains since Affirmative Action was started. Try selling this to the suburban soccer moms.  Insane


Look on the bright side. With out Affirmative Action, you wouldn't have Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court or Ward Connerlly as a U.C. Regent.  Smile
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N79969
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Sat Jan 18, 2003 12:14 am


Superfly,

Call it 'hatred' or 'zero respect'- whatever you want. Rather, I am pointing out that your dislike (lack of respect) for the man is almost a moral conviction for you. It seems unshakeable. I did not mean to call you hateful for the sake of it.

The Bush Administration did not just notice this case and decide to file a brief because the economy is slow to stir up hatred. It takes years for a case to reach the Supreme Court. Bush has long held the view that he prefers 'affirmative access' rather than race based schemes. See the posts above about the Texas system. Again, he has stated that he is not against affirmative action in general. For a politician, Bush has been remarkably consistent in his views on this issue.

Bush took a risk in filing this brief after the Lott fiasco. All indications are that he is not doing this for a political purposes. In fact, his snake of a political adviser, Karl Rove, tried to persuade the President not to file it because of the political risk.

He is opposing Michigan's crass system of awarding an applicant points just because of race. Like I said, it's like being black or Latino is like the equivalent of earning a letter in track.

This is not a states' rights issue. This practice by the State of Michigan potentially violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution.
 
N79969
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Sat Jan 18, 2003 12:17 am

Actually I don't know if 15 or 20 points equals a letter in sports for Michigan.
 
Superfly
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Sat Jan 18, 2003 9:53 am

N79969:
The Bush version of Affirmative Action is assuming that test scores are the ultimate barometer of ones capabilities. The White students in this case are assuming that their higher scores should automatically grant them acceptance. Maybe there were other things that impressed the admissions board about these other applicants. Maybe they wrote better papers, did more proactive things in there communities.
What puzzles me is why they are choosing to pick on the University of Michigan for not getting in. Just like most college applicants, I applied to at least 10 Universities knowing I wouldn't get in to all of them. I was accepted in to 9 of them. Did I raise a fit for not getting in to that one?
NO!
It would make sense to apply to multiple schools in case some don't accept you.
Sorry, but this sounds like a frivolous lawsuit to me.

Bring back the Concorde
 
jwenting
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:42 pm

Superfly, a system in which you have to apply to many different universities (and maybe lines of study within those) in the hope of getting accepted by one of them is a system that's wrong at the core.
While it is quite possible that there are more students than applicants at one place, at least make the admission criteria fair and equal to all. Giving someone preferential treatment for admission into a university JUST because he (or she) has a different skin colour (WHICHEVER skin colour that is) is basically unjust and probably unconstitutional as well.

These people aren't complaining because they were turned down fair and square, they are complaining because they were discriminated against! If they were black kids who were turned down because of their skin colour you'd be all over the place demanding the resignation of the US government over the matter, but they are white and suddenly it's frivolous?
I wish I were flying
 
Superfly
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:03 am

Jwenting:
Here is an interesting article you may want to glance at.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/17/rice.action/index.html
Bring back the Concorde
 
N79969
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:43 am

Superfly,

The core of the lawsuit is one particular feature of the admissions process: an applicant automatically gets 15 or 20 points for black, latino, or native American. What if it were the other way and they deducted 15 or 20 points for being a member of one of thes groups? That is what is happening to whites, asians, and others. They are basically dinged 15 or 20 points for their race. I think you understand the problem here.

This is a very crass and crude system of achieving diversity. Bush is simply saying that are better ways of achieving diversity rather than giving people points for race. I agree with him on this point wholeheartedly.

Perhaps some of the minority students did write better essays or something. That is certainly possible. However given the automatic 15-20 point advantage that is conferred, there is room for doubt. That is the basis for the lawsuit.

The University of Michigan is the flagship school of the state. MSU and the others are not equivalent in terms of prestige or quality. Further, these students would be forced out of state to get a comparable education probably at higher costs.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Wed Jan 22, 2003 4:45 am

What if the applicant is half black and half white? Give him/her an extra 10 points instead of 20? lol

 
N79969
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Wed Jan 22, 2003 4:56 am

That person will get the full 20 probably. I think if you have at least 1/8th of whatever ethnic heritage, you can claim it. I don't know the actual rules but that is what I have heard from friends who have benefitted.
 
N79969
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:10 am

I don't quite agree with the editorial. But I think it is a thoughtful criticism of the White House position and worth reading.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/24/opinion/24BUCK.html
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:36 pm

Affirmative action was (and still is) a good idea, to the extent that blacks should be given a break because of centuries of oppression. Even a mere generation ago, talented and academically smart black students were denied admission to some universities just because of their skin color. So there is plenty of justification for affirmative action.

But it is wrong to practise the very discrimination against blacks we are trying to correct on another segment of society! Affirmative action would have been much better realized if black students were given a little extra boost to help them achieve the academic level needed to gain admission to colleges. This would have answered the need to compensate them for past injustices, and would have given them the dignity of being able to secure these positions fairly, based solely on merit.

Instead, what happened is that schools in predominantly black areas have remained substandard. Instead of bussing students around town, which did not result in raising academic achievement, resources should have been committed to improving schools and helping black parents understand the need to encourage their children to excel in school.

That's how affirmative action should have been implemented in the first place.

Pete

"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
N79969
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Tue Jan 28, 2003 12:26 am

I agree with Delta-Flyer. I think our efforts should focus upon improving primary education for childern from disadvantaged areas. If affirmative action means ramping up spending in poor areas-- I am for it. However I think the system Michigan uses only perpetuates the "soft bigotry of low expectations." (to quote the President-- that does not happen often)

Bush has not come out against affirmative action although that is how the Democrats are characterizing it. I repeat that he is against giving certain groups 20 automatic points simply because of their race. It is a crude and unjust system. A perfect SAT score only earns you 12 points under the Michigan point system.

 
Superfly
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:53 am

Delta-flyer:
I also agree. When I started college, I had dorm/roommate from South-Central L.A.
He and few other engineering majors from that part of the city woke up at 4:00 AM to ride a city bus for three hours to get to high school in the San Fernando Valley so they could take Calculus, Trigonometry, Chemistry, Marinebiology and college prep English. I thought it was criminal that there neighborhood schools didn't offer these classes. My high school did.
The movie 'Stand and Deliver' (1988) deals with this issue.
Bring back the Concorde
 
ScooterTrash
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:48 am

The facts are these: Affirmative action does not positively effect racism in America... it propogates it. Making any decisions based on race is detremental to that race, because it creates an environment of entitlement; i.e. I deserve this job or that raise because I am a minority, not because I have worked to earn my position. This, in essence, creates a welfare class that is held down by it's own dependence on goverment protocol.

If we want to improve the level of advancement of our minorities, we must vigorously investigate violations of the Equal Employment Opportunity laws. We must also nationally address the real issues that are affecting our minorities, particularly the African American community: Skyrocketing illigitimacy, a floundering system of primary and secondary education, identifying good role models for minority youth and giving young people a sense of national stewardship and ownership of their own destinies. Giving away jobs or college educations due to some quota or government mandate will accomplish none of this.
 
Superfly
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:51 am

Scootertrash:
Giving away jobs or college educations due to some quota or government mandate will accomplish none of this.

Giving away jobs or college educations due to some CONNECTIONS or coming from a RICH FAMILY will accomplish none of this either.

Blacks who hold prestigious jobs were not given there jobs. They EARNED them and it wasn't through connections from a wealthy family member.

Stirring up a fuss about affirmative action dosen't help the situation either.
I'd like to see Bushman and his friends on the right join community activist in the Black & Latino neighborhoods and try to tackle this issue at the ROOT of the problem.
I'll tell you one thing, the problem isn't abortion and a tax cut for the rich.  Insane
Bring back the Concorde
 
ScooterTrash
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:23 am

Superfly:

Wow, I am impressed! You covered the entire liberal agenda in that short post. How very concise of you!

Look, you and I would find ourselves agreeing on the rich kid thing. I don't like nepotism any more than I like racism. That is a fact!

You cannot dispute that affirmative action is a failed agenda. It is just another form of welfare... not a help up but a hand out. Not to mention that it smacks of big government intrusion into business (just call me a "Jeffersonian"). Lets enforce the laws that are in place and allow social change to proceed on the course it was set upon in the 1960's. Take another look at my post and you will see that I have identified what are the REAL problems of the minority community. Affirmative action does not do anything to address the issues in the least and is simply government sanctioned racism.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Bush Says No To Affirmative Action

Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:11 am

Interesting,

whites get a small and I do mean SMALL taste of what blacks have had to put up with for 200 or so years and now it's  Crying WAH WAH WAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!  Crying
Love Trumps Hate

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