heavymetal
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The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:35 am

More thoughtful American columnists and reporters have told us that there is a period of reflection settling in on the Middle East...here's an example...

http://www.gulfnews.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=74240

At the heart of the Victory over the kind of terrorism that gave us 9/11 is when those whom the terrorists claim to be brethren say "Enough" and stop them. This is an encouraging sign.

 
GDB
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:45 am

Good article, criticism of, but not US or Western bashing for the sake of it, with plenty of well-argued points.
Indeed the West has been the most advanced for over 500 years, but if China had not reverted to isolationism in the early 15th century, the last half millennium's history would have been very different, as China was in many ways the most advanced society then.
 
N79969
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:52 am

I wonder if this was translated into Arabic.
 
Tbird
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:56 am

Greetings:

Very good article but sadly the author represents the minority vs. the majority in the Middle East. The majority of the Middle East has very little education in-turn allowing people to turn into follows. His example of Israel dominating its neighbors with knowledge vs. money is a perfect example of why education is so important to society. If more people were educated or even able to read people like Bin Laden wouldn't exist.

Regards
Tom
 
avt007
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:58 am

A very well done piece. You have to admire his courage as well, for saying these things may not make him popular in some circles.
 
N79969
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:04 am

Tbird,

Many, if not most of OBL's followers are very-well educated. All 19 of his hijackers. His right-hand man is a surgeon. Education is not the problem.
 
Tbird
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:21 am

I never said the leaders of these groups were uneducated. Most of the time the leaders of these groups and governments are extremely intelligent people. How do you think they rally the masses? The individuals who follow these people are the uneducated, generally the great masses. A perfect example is the 1000's of Palestinians who marched today in Gaza in support of Saddam Hussein. Those are the masses who are mislead because they don't know any better. So yes education is the problem and will continue to be the problem. Most of the problems in the world today can be linked to a lack of education.

Tom
 
N79969
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:49 am

Tbird,

I disagree. Many of al-Qaeda's foot soldiers are well-educated Egyptians, Saudis, and Moroccans who are unemployed in their home countries. They often migrate to the West where most of them become radicalized after coming into contact with the 'decadent' west. Look at 9/11 hijackers, most of them were "normal" before coming into contacts with Muslim radicals in Germany. The core of al-Qaeda is pretty well educated.

Do you know what the Palestinians are called in ME? They are often dubbed the "Jews of the Middle East." Ironic. Compared to other groups of Arabs, they have the highest literacy rates and are often the most economically successful. They probably marched for Hussein because he opposes the US. They hate the US because we back their tormentor Israel.

Illiteracy is a big problem but I think most of the geopolitical problems today can be linked to a lack of democracy.
 
heavymetal
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:10 am

Do you know what the Palestinians are called in ME? They are often dubbed the "Jews of the Middle East." Ironic. Compared to other groups of Arabs, they have the highest literacy rates and are often the most economically successful.

You bring up a good point En.

If Arabs really want to make the West quake in their shoes, they should try envisioning the economic power that results from a merging of the mind power and intellectual resources of two communities..... Palestinian and Israeli. A peaceful existence and gradual integration of talents and possibilities would create the regions first non-oil based economic powerhouse.

Come to think of it, it wouldn't hurt for the Jews in the region to envision that too.

 
jaysit
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:32 am

...If Arabs really want to make the West quake in their shoes, they should try envisioning the economic power that results from a merging of the mind power and intellectual resources of two communities..... Palestinian and Israeli. A peaceful existence and gradual integration of talents and possibilities would create the regions first non-oil based economic powerhouse...

That would mean a united Israel and Palestine which is a political impossibility, given Sharon, Hamas, and the American Evangelical movement that will fight tooth and nail to keep all of Israel under Jewish control to fulfil their own messianic fantasies. The Palestinian diaspora in the Middle East rightfully think rather poorly of the current Israeli regime and just as poorly of the rest of the Arab world. If a viable Palestinian territory were indeed a political possibility, you would see the Palestinian intelligentsia and educated elite returning to Palestine from Jordan, Europe, the UAE, etc in droves. A moderate Palestinian regime established in the West Bank could theoretically exist peacefully with a moderate Israeli government, but for the constant flash points created by the usual bunch of troublemakers listed above.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Tbird
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:44 am

N79969 I respect your opinion but coming from an education background I've done to much research and written to many papers that link many sociological problems to the lack of education in society, whether that education being formal schooling or public awareness. Yes Bin Laden's group is well educated and well organized but the people outside the Al Qaeda, the common Joe of the Middle East if you will have not been educated on the ways of the west. Yes the lack of democracy does play a part but you must ask yourself a question. Why aren't these countries democratic and what let them become totalitarian? If you unravel all the layers you'll discover it simply comes down to not knowing any better. When a population is educated they can ask "why". Take Iran for example the population knows what the west has to offer and they’re demonstrating for change. The more you know the better off you are.

Tom
 
N79969
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 7:07 am

Tbird,

And I certainly respect your's. However, I think coming from an education background is precisely why you hold your particular biases. That is why you believe the lack of education is the problem. I mean no disrespect by that. I have my own biases. Academics in any field think that if the world would just adopt their theories, then problems would be solved. Thank God, economists, political scientists, and sociologists are mostly confined to universities where they cannot mess anything up.

Iran is not pro-Western because of better education. They have endured 20+ years of theocratic rule that has brought nothing but economic ruin. They want out of the Revolution.

I certainly have not researched the connection between sociological problems and low education levels. If we were talking about teenage pregnancy, drug abuse, and so on-- I would agree with you. However, I feel confident in saying that the political problems of the Middle East are divorced from the issues of education levels.

"If you unravel all the layers you'll discover it simply comes down to not knowing any better. "

I complete disagree with this. They know better. Bahrain is holding elections already. Kuwait had one but decided to disenfranchise women. Many ME's want democracy but they are ruled by dictators. This is a fundamental political problem that cannot be addressed by sending kids to school.

Another thing worth considering is the number of terrorists and terrorist sympathizers who are US-educated. Hundreds. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind behind 9/11, went to grad school in North Carolina. The Lackawanna Six were US born. The bottom line is that I am not worried about the illiterate Egyptian date peddler that is angry with us, I am far more worried about the cosmopolitan, well-educated middle class Egyptian who has no hope of finding a job and wants to give some meaning to his life by executing a suicide mission against the USA.

"The more you know the better off you are."

I agree 100%
 
Tbird
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 8:22 am

Well we can go on forever but I'm going away this weekend so I'll make one last point. You stated you’re not worried about the illiterate Egyptian date peddlers who are angry with us. I agree, but if more of those illiterate Egyptian date peddlers could read and write maybe they'd become more sociologically aware of the world and see that supporting dictators, and terrorist groups is morally wrong and just maybe things might just change. Idealistic yes, but it's just a thought. I think in some way the author is trying to tell us something about public awareness and education. So in the end we'll have to agree to disagree  Big grin

BTW I meant no disrespect to the illiterate Egyptian date peddlers, there contribution to the Egyptian economy is greatly appreciated  Acting devilish

Have a great weekend!
Tom
 
747-451
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 8:28 am

"Since, therefore this threat for us, is less military and more spiritual or intellectual, we have to be careful about the choice of weapon. The black-and-white simplicities of the Bush administration won't do for us because our concerns and requirements are different.

The demonisation of Iraq fits in with American preconceptions, not ours. The 'axis-of-evil' is an American construct. Who else could have dreamt of it?"

The article makes alot of sense except for this statement and some of the ones that follow.

there are some "black and white" issues--especially when it comes to terrorism and the support/funding/aquiessing to it. There can be no amount of terrorism that is acceptible, no matter what the "beef" is. Terorrism is an ideological problem primarily and amilitary one by consequence. It is ideological because as outwardly beligerent states directly incite the people and moderate states "put up with it" and deceitful states such as Saudi Arabia fund it, knowing what terror is. However, with in the constrains of "pride" as well as radicalism it is something that will not be countered "ideologically" very easily; and if any sort of ideological counter will have to come from within the Muslim community--since "outsiders" are viewed as infidels in radicalised societies and politely ignored as outsiders in moderate societies. However, with recent trends such as the rise of the Taliban-style radicalism, Iranian fundemantalism and Saudi Arabian "acceptance" of this kind of Islamicism, it is doubtful that any moderation of the degree needed to counter terrorism in a meaniful way is forthcoming. And unfortunately with other societal ills within the Islamic world, such as poverty and illiteracy that only butresses the more fundamental frame of mind. And this fundamental frame of mind is not open to any sort of negotiation, let alone moderation. This fundamental movement also has an "evangelical" component as espoused by OBL and others to establish a world wide caliphate. Using terrorism to accomplish these goals will eventually be met with warefare, plain and simple. And though "Axis of Evil" is a broad stroke, it is a truism. Just as Germany, Japan and Italy were an "axis" so are the forces of Al Qiada and Radical Islamicismas are warlike states of North Korea and Iraq. Though varying in degree, they are still a threat as all look to terrorise innocent, democratic states.
 
777236ER
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 8:33 am

There can be no amount of terrorism that is acceptible, no matter what the "beef" is

Oh, as simple as that? How do you define terrorism?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
747-451
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 9:13 am

777236ER:

These are terrorist acts--  Yeah sure

WTC 9/11
Hijacking of Airliners
Bombings (LaBelle, 1986; LGA, 1972)
Genocide
Ethnic Cleansing
Forced conversion to religious orders (re Islam/Nigeria)
Slavery (Sudan)
Use of Chemical agents (Iraq/Kurds 1988; Tokyo 1995)
Destabilization of elected governments (Phillipines/Abu Sayff)

come to mind....

777236ER, don't try to draw some sort of "moral equivelency"  Yeah sure controversy or make some sort oblique parrallel by equating some things with others...it won't work. And no you can't equate military offensive actions against N. Korea or Iraq as "terrorism" since those states committed belicose acts against UN mandates and are using those means to blackmail or try to say that "Abu Sayaff is entitled to territory because they fell that they deserve it" by trying to take over parts of the Sulu archipeligo.

Also don't even try to say that WTC 9/11 is what the result is of our so called "foreign policy" either--mass murder does not wash and that is a view shared universally, period.

-451 in NY





 
heavymetal
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 9:21 am

How do you define terrorism?

Dead kids. That's at least a basic starting point. From there ask the people who killed them if that's what they had in mind. If the answer is yes, you've got a terrorist.
 
eg777er
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 11:33 am

The article focuses on the way in which the Arab peoples have been misruled by despotic leaders.

However, in the main, these leaders have been funded and supported by the West for short-term political expediency. Why is it that Saudi Arabia still abuses human rights, and gets away with it?

Small word, three letters.
 
We're Nuts
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 12:35 pm

Interesting 747-451, I can see at least four things in that list that the US has participated in. Are we terrorists??
Dear moderators: No.
 
sleekjet
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 12:59 pm

Mr. "Nuts": I respectfully disagree. While there have instances of horrific wrong-doing in our country, they can be blamed on the imperfections of a few people (with the exception of slavery). The constitution of our land has served us well. The preponderance of good that this country represents is a mountain compared to the molehill of bad. Your "terroristic" suggestion suggests to me a terrible bias, the roots of which indicate a warped understanding of history.
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
747-451
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 1:22 pm

Like what Nutsy???  Yeah sure But what would I expoect from you anyway?
 
We're Nuts
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 1:34 pm

Bombings (LaBelle, 1986; LGA, 1972)

We bomb lots of places.

Forced conversion to religious orders (re Islam/Nigeria)

Slavery (Sudan)

Use of Chemical agents (Iraq/Kurds 1988; Tokyo 1995)

Destabilization of elected governments (Phillipines/Abu Sayff)


Questions?

Dear moderators: No.
 
heavymetal
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 1:37 pm

Small word, three letters.

Save the pontification, your majesty....you're as guilty as we are.

Where were those Jaguars and Tornados for the despot-run Royal Saudi Air Force built.... Togo? What city still ranks as one of the favored fun spots for desert royalty to piss away their millions? And I suppose we're to believe that Rolls Royces and Jaguars and Rovers all run on sunshine, right? Sunshine and daisies.

Before you go handing out the despot support cards to Hopalong & Co., do a little research on some of your dearly departed countrymen like Marcus Samuel, John Cadman, and one Mister Jack Philby, whose good friend Ibn Saud took his advice and allowed British companies to explore for that tiresome black goo bubbling up here and there in the sand.

The U.S.A. may have done it's share of feeding the oil monster, but the UK helped deliver the demon baby to begin with.

 
747-451
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 1:55 pm

Cut the crap--the only time we "bomb" is to defend ourselves, gag me with the PC stuff already...

And who have we forced indoctrinated into a religion? (except maybe in Berkeley  Sad )

Yes, and I see all the current slave markets we have; like the one here right in  Yeah sure Time Square  Yeah sure

Use of Chemical Agents, yeah maybe thirty years ago during a brutal guerilla war-not in a subway to kill people going to work.

Destabilization of governments...sure to destabilize despots like SH...and again not in the motive you accuse us of. But then again would we be a better world of there were more Castro's Taliban's, Noriega's etc etc ...  Yeah sure

You entirely miss the point, you seem to be completely unable to discern the difference between terrorist acts committed against innocents as opposed to enforcing UN sanctions, defending our borders and protecting our national interests (which isn't a crime, nor are we alone in doing it--so again, save me the false "piety"; even our beloved Clinton blew up "baby milk factories"  Yeah sure).

Your PC diatribes are kind of trite.

 
We're Nuts
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 2:51 pm

You are an awfully angry person, 747-451. Please calm down and talk like an adult.

Now it isn't my fault if you can't elaborate on posts. May this be a lesson to you, BE SPECIFIC!
Dear moderators: No.
 
eg777er
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sat Jan 18, 2003 8:09 pm

Heavymetal..........that's why I said the 'West', if you read my post correctly.

Unlike some members of this forum, I have never said that the UK or EU is in someway absolved from blame on this issue. Hell, we caused most of the initial problems in the Middle East with our 'drawing lines in the sand'.

What the Arab people desperately want is fair treatment. Not just in respect to Israel, but amongst their own leaders. I have seen first hand the popularity of even small democratic reforms in Bahrain, and this would be repeated across the entire Middle East.

Unfortunately, from a Western perspective, allowing the Arabs democracy would spread Islamic and anti-Western rule. This wouldn't be good for the oil supply.

So, the big question is - are our Western values such as democracy more important than our oil supply?
 
777236ER
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sun Jan 19, 2003 12:31 am

You entirely miss the point, you seem to be completely unable to discern the difference between terrorist acts committed against innocents as opposed to enforcing UN sanctions, defending our borders and protecting our national interests

What's the difference between your protecting your interests and Palestinians of Chechens protecting their interests? I'm not a terrorist support, I just don't see the distinction between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. Are the Europeans who settled in America terrorists?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
MD-90
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sun Jan 19, 2003 1:41 am

Are the Europeans who settled in America terrorists?

Everybody, you knew it'd happen someday. He's gone off the deep end and probably won't be returning.

Anyway, geez the guy that wrote the article knows English better than I do. I had to look up "expostulate."
 
MD-90
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sun Jan 19, 2003 1:45 am

By the way, thanks for posting that article, Heavymetal. It is excellent.
 
Alessandro
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sun Jan 19, 2003 3:19 am

GDB, if didn´t exist, everyone would be rich! Seriously, Asia is making rapid progress, but Europe and North America will still be the places where most new
invention will be born. ME will continue to be a battleground as long as they
have too much money....

From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Guest

RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:33 am

after reading that article all I can say is "WOW"

its about friggin time, at least one Arab got a clue. Hope this guy isn't shot or jailed.

tnnh
 
747-451
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sun Jan 19, 2003 6:55 am

Nuts:

I'm hardly angry, you aren't worth it. My posts are specific...it is your fault if you cant extrapolate... or investigate on your own.
 
747-451
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sun Jan 19, 2003 7:04 am

"You entirely miss the point, you seem to be completely unable to discern the difference between terrorist acts committed against innocents as opposed to enforcing UN sanctions, defending our borders and protecting our national interests "

What's the difference between your protecting your interests and Palestinians of Chechens protecting their interests? I'm not a terrorist support, I just don't see the distinction between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. Are the Europeans who settled in America terrorists?

Here we go with the "moral equivilence thing again...how tiresome.
 
heavymetal
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:41 am

Eg777er

I owe you a huge apology. Your three letters were "O-I-L". I got all defensive and thought they were "U-S-A"

Part of the reason was I was fresh back from the pub. Never rant on a few pints of fine ale.

But a big portion of my defensiveness had to do with a disturbing article I read about the growinf rift between Europe and the States. It goes without saying that Europeans aren't the biggest fans of Republican administrations here. It was true when Reagan was playing his dangerous gambles in the 80s, and it's true now with Hopalong. And that resentment has bred some ugly opinions on The Continent. One Belgian aristocrat was quoted as saying "maybe it was good that 9/11 happened" to the States....take some of the arrogance out of our sails. I was disgusted.

I'm also disgusted by some of the unilateralist arrogance that our policies are actually showing. But I would beg Europeans to realize that the very latest opinion polls show that a majority of Americans DO NOT support action against Iraq unless our Allies are onboard. Our leaders(and I would remind those of you across the pond to ponder the circumstances two years ago that actually made them our "leaders") may be ready to party alone, but most of us want you people to sign of on it to.

We've learned so much about where our collective futures need to head together over the past half century. I would hate for an apathetic and arrogant MINORITY ideology that happens to enjoy the fruits of our democracy right now to ruin that history.

 
ovelix
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:37 pm

747-451

These are terrorist acts

1. WTC 9/11
2. Hijacking of Airliners
3. Bombings (LaBelle, 1986; LGA, 1972)
4. Genocide
5. Ethnic Cleansing
6. Forced conversion to religious orders (re Islam/Nigeria)
7. Slavery (Sudan)
8. Use of Chemical agents (Iraq/Kurds 1988; Tokyo 1995)
9. Destabilization of elected governments (Phillipines/Abu Sayff)


Now call me anti-american or whatever I cannot resist to remind you the followings:

1. Serbian TV and China embassy in Belgrade.

3. It is known that CIA planted bombs, used agents and other personnel or equipment in order to settle the so called "Pax Americana" during the Cold War.

4 & 5. Remember some red guys calles Indians or Native Americans??

7. You all remember about it, right?

8. Vietnam (sorry for reminding that too, I know it hurts)

9. Chile, Greece, Nicaragua, Argentina, Brazil etc

Of course all of these are now considered "terrible mistakes". But every one of these examples was OFFICIALLY approved operations and NOT acts of some extremist group. It was the government who ordered all these.

Kostas

 
donder10
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Sun Jan 19, 2003 7:55 pm

China embassy in Belgrade
And that was an accident.Do you seriously think the US would intentionally do something like that to China today?
 
Alessandro
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 12:37 am

Donder10, not an accident, a mistake because someone couldn´t read the map.
Ovelix, what have the US done to Greece and Brazil?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
KLAX
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:20 am

Like to see you do a better job Alessandro, next time we'll send the Swedish Air Force in to fix problems that part of the world.

-Clovis
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:25 am

We always like to sit on the side and let others do the dirty work. Rather clever I say, last time Swedish air force was involved in serious fighting was
in the Congo during the 1960ies (under the blue flag), the "flying barrel" was
very efficent back then....
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Rai
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:36 am

Ovelix, what have the US done to Greece and Brazil?

Being of Greek decent, I can try to answer that, Alessandro. First off, Greeks are bitter that the US and Turkey have such a close military relationship. Greece has the highest military budget per capita in Europe to ward off a potential Turkish strike, which, in all honesty, would never happen.

Secondly, a many Greeks are mad because of the CIA’s role in putting down the Communist party. I think a lot of Greeks are socialist by nature (a lot more left-wing than the rest of Europe, which says a lot!) and many are mad that the Communist Party has little influence anymore. One of my uncles Greece was a leading member of the Greek Communist Party and he’s bitter about its fall to this day. That’s why many have such a strong kinship with the Arab world (consideed cousins) and despise Israel, even though they conduct military exercises with them

Thirdly, though many will not admit this, lots of Greeks in Greece are jealous and resentful of those who emigrated (to Germany, US, UK, South Africa, Canada and Australia) and became successful. Greeks have a great reputation in the US, Canada and Oz because they are considered hard-working. You go to Greece itself and notice that most people are pretty lazy and nothing ever gets done. Another uncle of mine came to visit when I lived in Canada and told me that if he had I over again, he would have come to North America.

You should not be surprised by Ovelix’s remarks, I sure ain’t. Remember, a recent poll showed that 30% of Greeks honestly believe the Mossad or the CIA was behind the 9/11 attacks. That’s a lot, considering it’s a European country! Not even in France is it that high!
 
Rai
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:40 am

Oh yeah...one more thing, Greeks are upset because of the Serbian bombing. It hurt their economy.
 
ovelix
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 3:28 am

And you totally forget that USA orchestrated and helped the military coup in 1967 which overthrew the elected government. The VP himself visited Greece and was welcomed by the colonels, in his speech he praised "the progress and the freedom" of the time. Jesus!!

Rai. Greeks don't give a sh*t about the local communist party. It's by far the most conservative, narrow minded and isolating party here. Your uncle is just exagerating.

The immigration of greeks stopped in the early '60s. And I haven't met NOT ONE person that falls to the category of immigrant-jelous that you describe. Are your family immigrants? That explains a lot.

There is no poll that suggests the 30% of greeks believe the CIA-Mossad BS. It's in your mind only.

90% of greeks have no economic ties with former Yugoslavia. Take your empty rhetoric and cheap bashing elsewhere.

Kostas
 
Alessandro
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:14 am

So envy is the same thing as hurting someone, so if I envy you, you´ve hurt me? I think US/Nato has done a lot
good for Greece/Turkey, without that there would have been several wars between the two. As for Yugoslavia, is it US fault that Greece was stupid enough to buy the Yugoslav telephone company?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
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RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:16 am

So you´ve any proof that US was part of the military coup in Greece or is it
just something "everyone" should know?
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ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:24 am

If the VP visit and the public praise of the regime is not enough for you what about the official Clinton apology in 1999 during his own visit? News are obviously not going as far away as Sweden.

Kostas

P.S. Why the irony?
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:30 am

I don´t follow Greece that much, not that interested. Some left wing Greeks seeked asylume here in Sweden during the 1970ies and in my point of view
they´re a group of lazy complainers, so perhaps thats the reason I don´t
follow Greece so much and trust the Greeks opinion on the US.
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ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:33 am

I think US/Nato has done a lot good for Greece/Turkey, without that there would have been several wars between the two..

USA and NATO sponsored and helped the selling of HUGE quantity of military equipment in both countries following the "Divide and Conquer" strategy instead of making sure that the two allies would be trustfully and truthfully on the same side. As long as USA was selling weapons let the two allies spend their a**es out for F-16s and arms.

As for Yugoslavia, is it US fault that Greece was stupid enough to buy the Yugoslav telephone company?

Who said so? Why do you bring this up? Did anyone blamed it on US? Please don't put words in my mouth.

Kostas
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:39 am

The Yugoslav telephone buy, was the response to Rai and his claim that the
Nato bombings of Yugoslavia hurt the Greek economy.
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Guest

RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:49 am

Rai said Greece and Israel co-operate militarily? Is that so? Don't they mind Israel has such a strong relationship with Turkey?

TNNH
 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...

Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:11 am

TNNH

Contrary to what some people believe, Greece is wise enough to make bussiness with Israel too. It's amazing that this part of our foreign policy does not seem to bother our Arab friends (at least openly).

Again contrary to what some people believe (including Rai's uncles) Greece is a modern western country who has the guts to condemn both Israel AND PA for their mistakes, when they are done.

Once again contrary to what some people believe, being "cousins" with arabs was never, even remotely, been a public belief.

Kostas

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