heavymetal
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The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Tue Jan 21, 2003 9:47 pm

As George II tries to make this farce the law of the land, one only need to look back at his old pasture to see how it is hopelessly failing.(link)

Pay particular attention to some of the questions that it took an MTV forum on sex ed for these kids to get up enough courage to ask.

Abstinence-only education is a life wrecker. It's time for the pious to stop being so friggin stubborn & admit it.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19148-2003Jan20.html
 
sleekjet
Posts: 2006
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2001 1:35 am

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:12 pm

Whether it fails or not, it is still the proper way to live. Just think about all the unwanted pregnancies and all the murderous abortions that abstinence prevents. Think about the self-esteem it nurtures. Think about the spiritual implications.
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
heavymetal
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:34 pm

Whether it fails or not, it is still the proper way to live

I'm not sure I disagree with you Sleek. I would preach further that routine, impulsive sex, minus love, eventually becomes a tiresome chore...and why on Earth would you water down that kind of fun!?

But that's the message you teach first. You teach respect, of yourself and the one person who's gonna knock you off your feet forever. You teach restraint. You teach common sense. Those are all the first, greatest messages.

But you gotta teach "back-up" too, man, it's just that simple. I've seen what HIV can do. AIDS has been beaten back from the guaranteed death sentence it used to be, but it is still a terminal disease. And it's raging everywhere else in the world. One of the reasons it isn't raging here is because from the mid 80s to the mid 90s it was drilled into everyone. Either don't do it or wear protection.

And that's what I truly despise about this dogma settling into schools. At best teach everything. At worst teach abstinence only. But don't declare some petty little war on rubbers because they're a symbol of being a dirty little Devil. Don't lie your ass off to propel what you see as God's Argument. Condoms aren't infallible. They break. But they also work. We've got 20 years of declining HIV infection rates in this country to prove it.
 
sleekjet
Posts: 2006
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:49 pm

I see the only problem in teaching abstinence is that so many are incapable of restraint. But teaching "God's Argument" is not teaching a lie. Premarital sex and all its consequences leave lives in a debris trail from which many never recover. So much better to go ahead and do it "God's way".
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
heavymetal
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:08 am

I see the only problem in teaching abstinence is that so many are incapable of restraint

Then I think we agree.

Being "incapable of restraint" is part of being young and not learning wisdom on your own, regardless of what your peers tell you. Not every kid drag races their car. But we should teach every kid to wear seat belts.

Being incapable of restraint shouldn't be a death sentence.

Look at those numbers in the article again. This town continues to have a chronic teen pregnancy problem , and reported STDs among teens are on the rise. If abstinence-only isn't cutting it in Lubbock, a town idealogically somewhere to the right of Billy Graham, it sure as heck isn't gonna work anywhere else.
 
mbmbos
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:09 am

Whether it fails or not, it is still the proper way to live. Just think about all the unwanted pregnancies and all the murderous abortions that abstinence prevents. Think about the self-esteem it nurtures. Think about the spiritual implications.

Huh?

Abstinence nurtures self-esteem? Spiritual implications to sex outside of marriage?

These kinds of comments are entirely circular, self-referential. If you believe that by having sex you have somehow cheapened yourself or the person you're with, then yes, you're going to have self-esteem issues. If you believe that there's a god on high that expects you to conform to a very narrow set of rules regulating the act of sex, then I suppose you've got spiritual problems.

How much guilt and judgment must we slather on our country's teens and young adults?

Look, as long as abstinence is encouraged as a choice - just as using a condom is a choice - I'm all for it.

But I'm not at all convinced that those people who are pushing for abstinence programs - many of whom speak out against condom/HIV protection programs - have any genuine interest in teaching our youth to make informed choices. More often than not, they want to shove their beliefs down everybody's throats.

 
AerLingus
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:54 am

Whether or not abstainence is proper is not the issue. We all know that in a perfect world, no teen would have sex until adulthood and possibly marriage.
However, this world is not perfect and many teens are having plenty of sex.

To deny that fact is to turn a blind eye toward how our society works. It's simply a terrible case of denial and ignorance on the part of the Christian right that is motivating awful decisions like abstainence-only sex education. Strictly teaching abstainence poses more problems that teaching responsible sex, as it will breed sexually ignorant adults who are going to be more likely to be unaware of how to have safe sex and prevent STDs.
Get your patchouli stink outta my store!
 
Stretch 8
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:39 am

There was also an article in the Washington Post in the Sunday Style section describing the current adolescent practice of "hooking up;" i.e., boys and girls geeting together for mutual oral sex encounters (if I were a girl, I would demand service first  Big grin) What about circle jerks as a solution?
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:43 am

Whether it fails or not, it is still the proper way to live. Just think about all the unwanted pregnancies and all the murderous abortions that abstinence prevents. Think about the self-esteem it nurtures. Think about the spiritual implications.

It IS the proper way, Sleekjet, but teens have been having sex since there were teens. Do you honestly think that since the President says "just say no", that kids will stop being curious and stop having sex. I agree with what you say, but you're burying your head in the sand here. Abstinence-only programs are going to lead to an explosion in things like unwanted pregnancies, HIV, AIDS, VD, simply because you'll have a generation of kids, if Right-wing nuts have their way, who have no idea HOW to protect themselves when they do jump the virginity ship. It's literally suicide for a lot of young people.

I see the only problem in teaching abstinence is that so many are incapable of restraint.

That's called being a teenager, Sleek. Again, you're overlooking the human element here. Yes, abstinence is the ideal way, but kids over a few millenia, have not remained so, have they? What makes you think that will change beause President Bush makes a law? Is this going to end up like the Scopes trial, and we'll send people to PRISON for teaching kids to be safe if they're going to be stupid and not listen to the abstinence message?

Look, I understand and I respect what President Bush is trying to promote here. I was 25 before I had sex (not entirely out of choice, mind you  Smile ), but I'm glad I waited. I wouldn't have been ready, nor would I have appreciated the experience at 16 or 18, even. It's a laudable goal, but it cannot stand alone. Unfortunately, throughout history, conservatives have disdaned education on some matters, and this is one of them.

They really, truly feel that if you teach "just say no", then kids will listen. They won't, at least not all of them will. Plus throw in the fact that parents, as a group (and I would imagine parents who are Conservative Christians more so) have a hard time talking sex with their kids. I know I will when the times comes. Do we just put out the "just say no" message ,and throw them to the wolves, so to speak. No, we can't afford to do that. We need to tell them "Look, if you're smart, you will not have sex while you're this young. However, if you're going to be stupid and not listen to me, at least protect yourself from getting pregnant, or catching a disease that could possibly kill you." We are failing our kids if we don't have this One-Two combination, that can make a strong, effective message.

Again, we see the chasm in American society between extremes. The far-left wants to continue the free-love message by not promoting abstinence, or in waiting, and feels just willy-nilly handing out condoms is the answer; and the far-right, with an equal but opposite reaction to the far-left, counters them by saying that they will only teach abstinence. Neither, in and of themselves, works. Together-again, a middle-ground, common-sense approach, is what is needed, and we're not getting it.

Abstinence only will cost kids their lives, in many ways. It's dangerous, it's not well thought-out, and it's another reaction of far-right, pie-in-the-sky thinking that has no basis in the real world.
 
sleekjet
Posts: 2006
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:10 am

A lot of you are acting like premarital sex is a wonderful, innocent choice that's okay because it involves consenting adults (or teens) and it's a free society, and on and on....

The fact is that it results in innumerable unwanted pregnancies. If the children are carried to term, often they are treated as unwanted strangers and are raised by someone besides a mother and father. If the unborn child is murdered, the consequences are grim. Please read the following article:

http://family.org/cforum/research/papers/a0001039.html
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
mbmbos
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:29 am

"A lot of you are acting like premarital sex is a wonderful, innocent choice that's okay because it involves consenting adults (or teens) and it's a free society, and on and on...."

Who has said this? Don't put words in other people's mouths. Debate their actualy words.

"The fact is that it results in innumerable unwanted pregnancies. "

Don't condoms prevent unwanted pregnancies?

 
TWAL1011
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:37 am

Just about any type of teaching is doomed to failure if it's not backed up in the home. Right?
 
JetService
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:50 am

The problem is that neither school of thought fits the entire population so neatly. Abstinence-only will not benefit those kids that cannot control their urges and receive no support at home, while the other sends a signal to those that can that 'everyone else is doing it' and may compel them to experiment when they otherwise wouldn't, which undermines the teachings of abstinence at home where it exists. No one can claim EVERY teenager experiments and will have sex. I didn't and I didn't need courses. No one can say all teenagers can be taught abstinences, because many can't. So how about an answer to customize the sex-ed to the kid AND get parents more involved. Have two curriculums. One abstinence, one prevention. Make the parents choose which one they want their child to attend. Not only will it give parents more control, it may give kids better suited education PLUS it will make the parents more aware of the education their child is getting which may get them more involved.
"Shaddap you!"
 
mbmbos
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:18 am

Jet Service,

You are right to say that no single teaching approach will prevent all unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases.

But what is your abstinence message? You speak of abstinence as if it were an absolute, as if not having sex as a teenager is the only correct action.

I would much rather teenagers be taught that they have choices and that their choices have consequences. Not only is this a more realistic way to get through to kids, it's also more respectful of them (they do have choices, after all; whether we like it or not, they have choices).

If, in teaching abstinence, you mean that kids should be taught not to be pressured into sex, via social pressure from peers or by an overly-aggressive partner, then I'm okay with teaching abstinence. If, in teaching abstinence, you mean that kids should be taught that birth control and STD control is not 100% effective, then I'm all for it. If, in teaching abstinence, you mean that kids should be taught that sex is more than a physical act, that there is an attending emotional (and possibly spiritual) connection as well, then I'm all for it.

But there is never a place in our public schools for propagating the notions that you will be called a "slut" if you have premarital sex, that you will feel shame if you have premarital sex, that there's no way to prevent getting diseases and getting pregnant, that God intends you to be married before you have sex, etc. This is just somebody's moralistic agenda.

 
heavymetal
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:36 am

A lot of you are acting like premarital sex is a wonderful, innocent choice that's okay because it involves consenting adults (or teens) and it's a free society, and on and on....

I don't see that in any of the posts.

I think your programming is failing to allow the actual argument in.....in your post, you lament the wrongness of sex before marraige, then provide a link that ticks off selected items on abortion. Fine issues. But not this issue.

This issue centers around information or the lack thereof. When it comes to teens & sex its either hope for the best, plan for the worst, or expect the best and to hell with the worst. I sense you think those are conflicting messages. I simply see it as one message with a lifeline backup.

It's interesting you linked Focus on Family. Ten years ago when sex ed messages were exclusively condoms and birth control, Jimmy Dobson and his rather hypocritical ilk in the Springs demanded that abstinence be included, and screamed about how their message wasn't being given a fair chance. So it was. Now....well, you give an inch, they take a mile. Their dogma is that ONLY their message be the law of the land.

It's doing wonders in Lubbock.
 
KLAX
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:51 am

Fact is, us teens are horny SOBs, and abstinence will never be completely effective...
I say, if you wanna get teens to stop having sex so much, legalize porn for the 14 and up group!!  Big thumbs up
Nobody ever got AIDS or anyone pregnant by wankin off'...


-Clovis
 
Hepkat
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 4:08 am

Once again we have puritanical forces at work. When will people stop burrying their heads in a Bible and really get out there and see the world for what it is? If we were meant to have sex at 18 or 21 then our bodies would come to sexual term at that age, period. This is nothing but a group of people trying to force their beliefs on an entire population. Nature clearly dictates that we become sexually active at a much earlier age than what the State defines as adulthood. It is Nature which endows young adults with the urge to have sex, not the young adults themselves. A man begins to sexually mature in his teens and reaches the peak of that maturity at approximately 21 years of age. From then on it's basically down hill. Women reach their peak of sexual maturity in their mid to late 30's or early 40's. Who is the President, or anyone else for that matter, to declare that we should control what Nature has given us? No one makes the choice to feel sexual, and I believe it's pointless to ask people to live contrary to their nature, or worse yet, teach them that what they naturally feel is "bad". How can it be?

Now, I'm not advocating that we all go out there humping everything in sight, just that we should make allowances for our nature, and begin adjusting our lifestyles accordingly. We need to realize that these old traditions and ideas of sex and marriage don't square with the natural inclinations of our bodies. It's pointless to try to prevent a young budding teen from wanting to have sex. It's a natural cycle in the process of their maturity. Rather, it makes infinitely more sense to teach them how to responsibly address these urges that they will eventually feel. Asking them to simply ignore these urges is not responsible. They could eventually indulge in misguided practices as a result of a lack of education; it is then that we will have failed the future generation.

I see the problem here as not one of unruly teenages unable to control their hedonistic urges, but that of PARENTS 1) avoiding the task of having to sit down with their kids and have a frank discussion about sex without the constant moralising and preaching, 2) failing their kids and attempting to shift the blame, 3) not accepting their children for who and what they are and 4) forcing their own beliefs and ways of life on their children instead of nurturing them and allowing them to choose the best path for themselves.

For some strange reason, many Americans are obsessed with placing too much faith in morality, righteousness and religion and fail to acknowledge that times are changing and that they should adapt accordingly. Instead of living in denial by preaching abstinence, these parents need to be sitting with their kids and explaining to them, look, this is how it works and this is how you do it responsibly. You have to inform them and allow them to choose.

Parents are rightfully afraid to place any trust in their children because they know they have failed them and they know they will ultimately make uninformed decisions. Perhaps this whole abstinence thing is just our guilt screaming out.



[Edited 2003-01-21 20:13:07]
 
JetService
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 4:21 am

"But what is your abstinence message? You speak of abstinence as if it were an absolute, as if not having sex as a teenager is the only correct action."

Mbmbos, I speak of that message working for some and not for others; read: NOT an absolute. Who are you to say that is the wrong message for kids you don't even know. They aren't all the same, you know. If I'm a parent (and I am), I want to decide the message my kid gets. I don't want you or anyone else to decide because you don't know them nor how they are being brought up. If the school insists on sex-ed, then I want the message to reinforce the message I'm deliverying at home, not undermine it. There's no right or wrong answer here. If the message of either abstinence or pervention is delivered to every single kid, then I gaurantee some of those kids are getting the wrong message. Let the parents decide which message their kids get. Who would know better than them?
"Shaddap you!"
 
777YYC
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:12 am

Pop quiz: Which country allows the Christian right to control social agendas(  Nuts ) and also has the highest teen pregnancy rates in the western world?
 
Guest

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:30 am

"We've got 20 years of declining HIV infection rates in this country to prove it."

Sorry, I'm not foolish enough to trust my life to "a declining rate of infection." Abstinance before marriage, and complete fidelity after.

...to say nothing of the religious perspective.

'Speed
 
aa61hvy
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:41 am

I am not deeply religious. I say if two people love each other and want to express it, then go for it. The two people engaging in it should know the consequences. But you need to weigh out the after effects. Every time I have sex with my girlfriend I am fully aware that there is a chance she could be pregnant. I am willing to pay for my actions. But we do take the proper precautions. Every time before we "do the dirty" I think to myself what may happen. I am fully responsible for my actions, and my girlfriend is fully responsible for her actions. If she gets pregnant its BOTH our faults. Not just mine and not just hers.
Go big or go home
 
heavymetal
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:44 am

Sorry, I'm not foolish enough to trust my life to "a declining rate of infection."

Fine, Normal. You made your decision. Bully for you.

But don't try to make that decision for every teenager in public schools, because more than a few of them are gonna rebel against you.

Rebel away, kid. But here's how to keep from having unwanted babies and getting a virus that will kill you in the process. Hopefully sooner rather than
later you'll gain some wisdom and see we were right all along.

Lubbock is preaching to the problem, with little to show for. But how worse can being aloof towards sex and its' moral implications get? A lot worse, as it turns out.

In July of 1993 merchants in the sprawling megapolis of Sao Paolo, Brazil felt their livelihood threatened by marauding bands of street kids, homeless and renegade, who were intimidating tourists and customers.

They hired a few off duty cops to take care of the problem. One night, the cops executed 8 of the kids and shot upwards of 70 more while they slept on a sidewalk. The sidewalk was right in front of the city's biggest Catholic cathedral.

But hey, the self-righteous, aloof attitude towards condoms and abortion was safe & secure inside that church. Still is. I'm sure there's no more street kids now too.
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:53 am

"Christian right to control social agendas"

Excuse me, but public education is HARDLY controlled by the right!!!! You wanna rephrase your Quiz question? LMAO!!!!
"Shaddap you!"
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2566
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 7:12 am

Okay, JetService, this is what I'm reacting to:

"So how about an answer to customize the sex-ed to the kid AND get parents more involved. Have two curriculums. One abstinence, one prevention. Make the parents choose which one they want their child to attend. Not only will it give parents more control, it may give kids better suited education PLUS it will make the parents more aware of the education their child is getting which may get them more involved."

Only two curriculums? Do you think we can come up with one abstinence course that will satisfy everybody? You may want a public school's abstinence program to reinforce what you teach at home, and so do I. Problem is, the "abstinence" message that you choose to teach will most likely be different from mine.

That's the point that I was making. If you decide on teaching both birth control and abstinence, you still haven't solved the problem.

 
Guest

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:11 am

"Fine, Normal. You made your decision."

Yes. Yes I did. And my greatest risk factor for getting AIDs is through a blood transfusion.

"But don't try to make that decision for every teenager in public schools, because more than a few of them are gonna rebel against you."

Heavy, you obviously feel strongly about this, and I'm not trying to get in an argument with you. If it came across that I was trying to force "every teenager" to go along with my brand of morality, then I apologize. That was not my intent. I just think it should be mentioned that there is only one way to guarantee protection from STDs and unwanted pregnacnies, and I think we all know what that is. But to believe that I actually could make the decision for all the teenagers would be a bit unrealistic. In the end, the decision is made at the individual level, and I have no control over that.

And yes, they may rebel. I will teach my children abstinance until marriage, and fidelity after. They may or may not accept it. In the end, it's their decision. But they should be aware of all of their options, including preserving the sanctity of marriage by saving yourself for that special someone.

"We need to realize that these old traditions and ideas of sex and marriage don't square with the natural inclinations of our bodies."

Bah. Some people are naturally inclined to steal things. Does that mean that they should do it anyway? Some people are naturally disposed to hating other types of people. Is that ok? It's natural for people to want lots of money, so we should look the other way when people "cook the books?"

Just something to think about, anyway.

'Speed

 
Guest

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:05 am

Heavymetal,

Please tell me that this thread is a joke right?

Please tell me again that one of the most advanced and intelligent nations in the world is teaching abstinace to High Schoolers?

Please tell me that it is really 2003?

I have never heard anything more ridiculous in my life. Some of you people should remember when you were a teenager, as if you are going to listen to the message of abstinance?

All children from around just before puberty should be educated about the changes that are taking place in their body and what it means. Educating kids about safe sex, the correct use of condoms and the consequences of unsafe sex should be drummed into them.

Girls that think they got pregnant from Oral sex and called them spit babies?

Religious zealots at it again. What a disgrace.

mb

 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:59 pm

Right MxBoy, zealots are evil. So make a new kind of zealot in response. Tell us the one and only way we should teach our kids about sex. You are no better than the other side, pal.

Mbmbos, two different curriculums is better than one. If you want a larger selection for the parents to choose from, then rock on, bubbalouie. Its better than a one-size-fits-all approach and that's all we've seen here so far. Everyone thinks they know exactly how every kid in the nation should be taught, be damned the parents input. This place reeks with zealotry in the name of defeating zealotry. I love the anti-right people crying about the right trying to control our lives then turn around and tell us how it should be done. Can anyone please attempt to tell me why letting the parents decide is not the best solution here? What's the problem with that?
"Shaddap you!"
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:06 pm

Nothing but a religion bashing thread...no surprise.

I'll reiterate what I've said before. Abstinence with Sex Ed. Not just one or the other.

I don't see how Abstinence kills. Fact is, it doesn't. People who practice it have ZERO chance of getting pregnant (well the ladies anyway, never heard of a guy giving birth) and a dramatically reduced chance of catching STDs. People who say that must be out of their minds.

Teach Abstinence...kids will try to avoid early sexual activity...don't forget to teach safe sex, so if kids do decide to have sex, they know how do do it safely.

Teaching just safe sex gives kids a dangerous sense that as long as they have a condom, they are safe.

Teaching just Abstinence is bound to get a few "rebels" in trouble.

So quit preaching this crap Heavymetal and Mx5_boy.

You can only have comprehensive Sex Ed with BOTH Abstinence and Contraception education. Listen more to Normalspeed, he isn't corrupted by the "social left agenda" <....see, it works both ways.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

[Edited 2003-01-22 05:19:02]
 
Guest

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:12 pm

Jetservice,

Can you give me one good reason why NOT to educate teens about the pitfalls of unprotected sex / the use of condoms and the horrors of teen childbirth?

I'm would not be surprised if some of these zealots have suggested chastity belts be worn by both sex's.

Education is the key, rather than some ridiculous religious dogma that is irrellevant in the 21st century.

mb
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:15 pm

BTW-show me statistics that Abstinence is a true failure. I've seen statistics that more and more practice it. You really should be careful how you word your thread titles. Unless you mean Abstinence-Only, and not Abstinence is a failure and only sex ed is good.

Nevertheless, there is too much liberal slant in your posts here. It is a threat to middle America. Like I said, Abstinence AND Contraception education. Your constant references to nonexistant "social conservative over zealous religious right wing agendas" makes me as sick as the far-right's references to "liberal communist plots".

Trying to teach those two alone is a "one-size-fits-all" approach. The very concept that moderates classify as "evil".

You've made my "Say No To" list for that.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:22 pm

Education is the key, rather than some ridiculous religious dogma that is irrellevant in the 21st century.

As opposed to the idiot-dogma that a Condom cures all...guess what...that's the equivilant of Russian Roulette in the 21st century.

Sorry pal, but the "one-size fits all" approach won't work. And the more you bash religion, the more you undermine your arguments. It only shows you to be an anti-religious zealot, nothing more.

BOTH Abstinence and Contraception Education.

LET ME REPEAT: BOTH Abstinence and Contraception Education.

If you dare attack me as some "religious zealot" who wants to do away with Contraception Education, be forewarned, it will prove my point that all you care about is bashing religion and you have selective reading skills.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:33 pm

Nobody ever got AIDS or anyone pregnant by wankin off'...

"Sex can wait,
Masturbate!"

And now ladies and gentlemen, along with abstinence and contraception education, we intruduce a third tier...masturabation.  Big grin

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
Guest

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:35 pm

B4E,

"""It is a threat to middle America.""" ???

I was referrring to *Abstinance Only*, common sense in a sex-ed classroom would point out that abstinance is the best way to avoid the pitfalls of unprotected teen sex.

Take religion out of the sex education equation and perhaps you won't find people yelling 'zealot'.

mb
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:54 pm

"Can you give me one good reason why NOT to educate teens about the pitfalls of unprotected sex / the use of condoms and the horrors of teen childbirth?"

MxBoy, sure, if a parent is teaching a child abstinence, then this can undermine their efforts by giving them mixed messages. What business is it of yours anyway? Butt out and quit trying to force your views on others

"I'm would not be surprised if some of these zealots have suggested chastity belts be worn by both sex's."

Indeed, these zealots need to butt out and quit trying to force their views on others.

"Education is the key, rather than some ridiculous religious dogma that is irrellevant in the 21st century."

Leave religion out of it. It has NOTHING to do with this.
"Shaddap you!"
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:04 pm

show me statistics that Abstinence is a true failure.

Read the article linked in my post.

And read my thread topic headline again. Your post seems like it ignored both.

And since everything to the left of Antonin Scalia seems to be "too liberal" these days, oh well. For what it's worth I don't really buy your 'raging moderate' act.
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:23 pm

Here's an interesting link that compares teenage pregnancy state-by-state. Seems like states that are most likely to promote an absinence only program (i.e. Texas) fare quite poorly compared to those that don't stress such programs (i.e. Massachusetts). The results speak for themselves. These numbers are a bit old, but I doubt they would have changed too drastically since then.

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html

Another thing you should consider: states like California, Arizona and even Texas have a high minority population and minorities (primarily Hispanics and Blacks) are much more likely to have a higher adolescent pregnancy rate. Other developed countries don't have as high a percentage of minorities (or, in Canada's case, a different demographic of them) so their results would differ. It still provides for some interesting data.
 
Guest

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:36 pm

Jetservice says:

"""MxBoy, sure, if a parent is teaching a child abstinence, then this can undermine their efforts by giving them mixed messages. What business is it of yours anyway? Butt out and quit trying to force your views on others."""

That is precisely the reason why I beleive sex ed should be taught in schools, how irresponsible as a parent to not make sure your children are well educated in this area. Wouldn't you feel pretty stupid if your little darling was only ever taught the only way to stop or prevent HIV transmission is to NOT HAVE SEX. So, she's out with her friends, drinking under age (you wouldn't think she would do it), they talk about sex, blahdiblah.. She meets a guy and they get carried away, she never sees him again. 4 weeks later she discovers something is missing and gets worried. 3 months later after a routine blood test to check her unwanted pregnancy she makes the shocking discovery she has sero converted HIV.

Now what if *daddy* told his little girl not to do but if she ever did make sure he's wearing a condom no matter what. Teenagers are not going to stop having sex just because someone tells them not to.

Besides, look at the statistics.

mb

 
Guest

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:09 pm

"...As opposed to the idiot-dogma that a Condom cures all...guess what...that's the equivilant of Russian Roulette in the 21st century."

Well said, B4E. The condom does not cure all.

To be honest, this thread has really got me thinking about risk management and exposure to risk, and I've tried to think of something I could compare it to. This is what I came up with: Relying on condoms is sort of like flying a piston airplane without doing a run-up. Sure, you might get away with it a hundred times. But it just takes one thing that you miss, like a magneto that isn't grounding out, or an alternator that is going to eat itself. These little things that you check on an airplane might be life-threatening. And the more times that you skip the run-up, the more exposure to risk you subject yourself to. Suffice to say, I fly airplanes carefully, and it bothers me when the guy I'm flying with doesn't do a thourough run-up.

Ah-ha! I thought of another parallel. Skiing "out-of-bounds." In case you all didn't know, I live about 30 minutes from some of the best ski areas in the world (Alta, Snowbird, and Park City to name a few). But, for some reason, some people insist on skiing outside of the ski area boundries. And don't get me wrong, I like powder just as much as the next guy, but there's plenty of it to be found inbounds. Anyway, these folks take precautions--avalanche beacons, probes, shovels, etc. Yet, in spite of all this avalanche protection, several people manage to get themselves killed every year. But if you stay in bounds, you will not die in an avalanche, gauranteed. And guess how many documented avalanches we've had this year: Over sixty--sixty opportunities to die. That's almost one per day of ski season. Anyway, an avalanche might sweep your car off the road, but if you get caught in an avalanche in your car, you will live.

Needless to say, I ski inbounds. I ski double-blacks. I could ski circles around all of you.

But for me, this is all academic, because I'm saving myself for my future wife. I trust my life to what I can depend on: common sense.

My main point is this: Ok, so a condom prevents 99 out of 100 people from getting a fatal disease. That's great for the 99, but what about the 1 person who has to give his or her life for a temporary pleasure? Isn't that a high price to pay? And that person could be you.

'Speed
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:39 pm

Aside from Alpha 1, how many of you actually waited and "saved yourselves"? Sleekjet? 'Speed? Jet? Have any of you ever had sex before marriage? Please be honest.
 
Guest

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:33 pm

'Speed,

A condom is the best protection you can have if your having sex with different partners or one night stands. It might not be 100% protection but it's close enough. Where on earth do you get the figures of 1 in 100 people getting infected by disease from condom breakage? That is plain ignorance - we'd have HIV cases and other diseases coming out of our ears if that was the case.

Those of you who decide to *save* themselves for their future partners then that's your choice, but your by far in the minority. Those of us who DON'T follow your particular firebrand of religion couldn't really give a toss if your saving yourself, most guys / girls for example are happy to get sex when they can if they are not in a relationship, hence the importance of educating people about unsafe sex.

Sex is healthy, natural and above all normal. And the subject should be taught as such to our children. Give them the option, if you have bought them up to respect and revere the bible then so be it, but educating them in something so important these days is the issue.

And those who assume that teaching your children abstinance will make sure they don't have casual sex or sex at all are sadly in denial about your children. Some may not [do it] but others will, regardless of what bollocks you shove down their throats.

The statistics are there. Kids growing up in my current home state are given fairly agressive sex ed, including christain schools of all persuasions (and have since the late 70's), in my home state - Queensland - we never had sex education as we had a dreadful conservative government that was heavily influenced by extremely conservative church groups who pooh poohed sex ed at school. Thankfully my mother had the good sense to tell her son the deal and a high school form teacher that had the good sense to show us (without school approval) the Kristian F. German movie about drug addiction and it's consequences.

In Queensland in the 80's there were no gays, no prostitutes or a drug problem ACCORDING to the government at the time. What a crock. The statistics of drug abuse and teenage pregnancies were disgraceful in that state until they finally got a decent government that forced sex ed into schools.

The statistics from around the world prove the point.

Just remember again this one thing, if your brainscrubbing your kids with conservative religion, abstinance et al, please remember that they may not share your view and may not tell you, they are in contact with other kids that know better and it is your duty to educate them (if the state doesn't) on the dangers and how to protect themselves.

Just because you abstained does not mean your children will as well.

mb

 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:38 pm

Bring back the Concorde
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:33 pm

Just one question. Does this whole Abstinence thing mean no more masturbation as well?

Imagine the millions of poor, innocent sperms killed in one "murderous" shot!


 Laugh out loud  Laugh out loud

-Roy
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:47 pm

Ok, so a condom prevents 99 out of 100 people from getting a fatal disease.

You're doing good, Normal. You should be a statistician for Focus On Family.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Here's another figure. 100 percent of all kids who go through puberty bombarded with messages about how pointless it is to use protection and DON'T use one are at risk for all the nasty POTENTIAL consequences of the act. (And it's probably as good as any a time to inject the concept that there might actually be none. The pious seem to act like just thinking an unsabory thought about gridin before marraige and your dick'll fall off.) People like me just want to cut that percentage. Abstinence is a great message. Protection is too.

Fess up. There's a self-righteous Calvinesque war on sex and sex ed being waged by the Holy Warriors of the Prudish Class. It's obvious you've chosen your side. That's fine.
 
JetService
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:35 pm

Please don't lump me in with the 'abstinence only' crowd. If you do, you're missing the point I'm trying to make. And Mx_boy, you are REALLY missing my point. Please read all my replies, especially the first. You cite one example of a little girl getting knocked up and infected because she got the wrong message. That's my POINT. One message doesn't fit all.

"Have any of you ever had sex before marriage?"

Rai, not that its any of your business, but yes. But we're not talking about pre-marital sex here; we're talking about teenage sex.
"Shaddap you!"
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2566
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:44 pm

Superfly,

If you ever run for president, please let me know. You've got my vote and a campaign contribution.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:26 am

A lot of you are acting like premarital sex is a wonderful, innocent choice that's okay because it involves consenting adults (or teens) and it's a free society, and on and on....

Sleek, I haven't seen that at all on here. What are you reading? No one is saying that, that I can see-not even Mx_5boy, although I find his denigration of teaching abstinence AS PART OF AN OVERALL, WELL-ROUNDED PLAN, to be fine and dandy by me. All we're saying is that an abstinence-only message, that avoids talking about protecting oneself if they're stupid enough not to listen to the message is more desirable.

I get the feeling that the abstinence-only crowd, left to them, and their embarrassment over sex and nudity and the like ,wouldn't teach kids how their bodies work; wouldn't teach them about HOW you can and cannot get pregnant; they just want to tell them "don't have sex, or bad things will happen to you." That's not smart, and it's dangerous, in my view.

Please tell me again that one of the most advanced and intelligent nations in the world is teaching abstinace to High Schoolers?

Please tell me that it is really 2003?

I have never heard anything more ridiculous in my life.


Mx_5boy, there is nothing wrong with teaching that abstinence is desirable. Nothing at all. But, as I've said, it is not an appropriate message in and of itself. It MUST be taught along with informing kids about STD's and methods to avoid them if one is stupid enough not to listen to good advice. And that's not happening under this Texas plan. It's abstinence, and no other information. And that's an incomplete message. But the message is not bad or ridiculous.

Education is the key, rather than some ridiculous religious dogma that is irrellevant in the 21st century.

That "ridiculous religious dogma", in one form or another, is the overwhelming religious view of people in the U.S., Mx_5boy, so way to slander about 200 million people. Nice job.  Big thumbs up Anyway, it has less to do with religious views than it does political and social views. Just because you don't have a faith, don't denigrate others who do.

This is nothing but a group of people trying to force their beliefs on an entire population.

And the side that preaches free distribution of condoms and are telling kids to go have at it, and who do not even believe in abstinence are not, Hepkat? You're dealing with two extemes here,and you've seemingly fallen on the side of the extreme left in this issue.

You cannot tell me, with a straight face, that an abstinence message, along with sound information on condoms and the like, might not start, slowly, impacting the high rate of unwanted and teen pregnancies in black communities in the U.S? If you don't believe that, you're crazy. It's about time such a message is taught in those communities-indeed, in as many communities as possible.

Right MxBoy, zealots are evil. So make a new kind of zealot in response. Tell us the one and only way we should teach our kids about sex. You are no better than the other side, pal.

Amen, JetService. A middle ground is needed, not the extremes who exclusively teach one in the absence of the other.
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:41 am

This is a tough call.

I mean, regardless of religious overview, abstinence can be a great thing. But moreover, the issue is not absitinence but instead that parents should do a better job of raising their kids from day 1.

When you have your values set, you are more likely to live a live and handle the sexuality issues with more authority.

just my 2 cents.

Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
Guest

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:55 am

"Where on earth do you get the figures of 1 in 100 people getting infected by disease from condom breakage?"

"You're doing good, Normal. You should be a statistician for Focus On Family."

It's called a freakin' HYPOTHETICAL for cryin' out loud. Have you guys ever heard of that term? Where did I get that figure? I made it up to illustrate a point.

"Abstinence is a great message. Protection is too."

Heavy, perhaps I should have been more explicit in my previous posts. This is what I have been saying. As I said earlier, it is unrealistic to think that the whole world would adopt my morals. So, I'd much prefer people using condoms to using nothing at all. In other words, if you insist on rock climbing, at least use rope, chocks, camming units, friction devices, etc. If you are going to ski the back-country, use avalanche beacons, probes, shovels, etc.

"Fess up. There's a self-righteous Calvinesque war on sex and sex ed being waged by the Holy Warriors of the Prudish Class."

Not that I've noticed. Until you brought it up, I'd never heard of "abstinance-only" education. Again, this is a decision that must be made on the individual level, and I have no control over individuals other than myself. War on sex, eh? You've obviously missed my point. Don't lump me in with these other wacked out Christian groups. I ain't no holy warrior. Holy ambassador, maybe. Prudish? I bet you couldn't pick me out of a crowd.

"It's obvious you've chosen your side. That's fine."

Yes. I've chosen how I, and I alone will act. And yes, that is fine. Thank you for acknowledging that fact.


Mx5_Boy,

Most of your post is not worth responding to. However, there is one part that I'd like to go on record as taking exception to.

"Just remember again this one thing, if your brainscrubbing your kids with conservative religion, abstinance et al,...Just because you abstained does not mean your children will as well.

If you had bothered to read any of my previous posts, you would have known that I've already acknowledged the fact that my children may not choose to go the same way I did. I said that in the end, it was their decision to make. "Brainscrubbing..." yeah, that's a good one. Some of us call that self discipline--a concept that is obviously foreign to you.

'Speed





 
mbmbos
Posts: 2566
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:33 am

"And the side that preaches free distribution of condoms and are telling kids to go have at it..."

Oh, Alpha1, please practice what you preach. Don't put words in people's mouths. Those who promote safe sex through use of condoms aren't necessarily telling kids to "have at it." I think that's unfair of you.

Most people on this thread who support teaching condom use have taken a very practical point of view, i.e., significant numbers of kids will have sex regardless what adults say and we have the opportunity/responsibility to teach them about birth control and disease prevention. Whether or not you agree with this line of thinking, it is rational, practical and level-headed.

"...there is nothing wrong with teaching that abstinence is desirable..."

I disagree. There is nothing wrong with teaching teens that there are consequences to their actions and that abstinence is the only option that provides one hundred percent protection from pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.

But I do not agree that abstinence is desirable. I believe that many factors are involved in the choices people make, and I also believe that I (and you, for that matter) am not to judge those choices.





 
KLAX
Posts: 1568
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RE: The Failure Of Abstinence-Only Ed.

Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:55 am

We have water balloon fights with the free condoms they give us at our school.

 Big thumbs up

-Clovis

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