Guest

Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 5:29 am

Many do not agree with the war on Iraq, there is much discussion about this and everyone is entitled to have their opinion, but recently I was disappointed and angered by the behaviour of the anti-war lobby in their targetting of our military as they left Australia bound for the Gulf.

People need to remember that these people are at the beck and call of the government. If the Government makes a stupid decision there is nothing our military can do, they must go along with it. They comitted themselves to the country and they go without argument, they do not deserve the hatred, and spite of those who would protest the war, they are simply doing the job they signed up for.

Leave them alone!




ADG
 
TWAL1011
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RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 5:31 am

Well said, ADG .
 
KROC
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RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 6:17 am

I agree, well said ADG. Just the other day, I was discussing the treatment or view of the military from the regular civilians...mostly those who never served, and fail to see that Joe Average Soldier, Marine, Seaman, or Airman is just doing his job, and not actually calling out for war, and no matter what, we should support them, becuase it is them that keep us free, and living the life we have all grown so acustomed too.
 
LY744
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RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:19 am

Does this only apply to the Australian military, ADG?

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
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RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:27 am

Here, here!!!!!! Very well said ADG!!

If you don't like the pending war on Iraq, protest the government! Not the men and women of the military.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
JetService
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RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:31 am

ADG, great to hear that. Agreed 100%!!!!
"Shaddap you!"
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
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RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 8:26 am

While we've only had CND types displaying anti-war banners as ships leave harbour, lack of public support must be a concern;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/2687819.stm
 
BA
Posts: 10134
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 10:50 am

ADG, I 100% agree with you. Very very well said. I am so glad you made this post.

I for one am one of those who is 100% against the war on Iraq. I do not put one bit of blame on the United States Military. Why? Because the military just takes orders, that's it. They are not the ones who decide whether to go to war or not. It's the politicians in Washington D.C. who decide that.

Again, very well said ADG.  Smile

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:12 pm

For once ADG, I agree 100% with you!

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
N766UA
Posts: 7843
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RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:23 pm

Amen! If you aren't one of em, don't critisize. God bless the military!
This Website Censors Me
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
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RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:28 pm

ADG, you may want to sit down to avoid a coronary, but I agree with you 1000%. Like you-and apparently many others here-I see the distinction between the people that are sent in harms way and those that send them there.

I have said many times in the last week or twot that, as things stand, I am not for an attack on Iraq, because I don't think a case has been made. Yet once that decision is made, I can still make my displeasure known to those who send our men in women in arms, but I will unreservedly support the men and woman in uniform, and will support their mission, even while disagreeing with them being sent.

That was one of the mistakes of Vietnam-too many anti-war protestors took their anger out on those sent to fight a war that wasn't popular. It wasn't their fault, but it was the fault of the leaders who sent them. I hope everyone remembers if there's a "this time around" in the near future.

Good job, ADG.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 2:14 pm

Wow!

ADG I am impressed. You have made you first steps into a larger world of understanding.


Excuse me while go outside and check the alignment of the planets.


That is the problem with leftist punks like those protesting, they end up blaming those that have no control or say over the situation. It is absolutely infuriating.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
cfalk
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RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 3:04 pm

Can't believe I'm agreeing with you, ADG. I think I'll go back to bed - I don't think I feel so good.  Big grin

We must remember that the anti-war protesters fall into three camps:

1) Those people who have actually thought carefully about the issues, and have specific set of reasoned arguments on why a war should not be fought in this particular case.

2) Those who have not thought about it at all, but are simply against war in any way, shape or form. To them ANY solution (including surrender) is better than war.

3) The hangers on. The guys who tag along hoping to get into the pants of some peace-girl. She: (sucking on a joint) "Gee, wouldn't it be swell if we all just loved one another?" He: "You wanna start with me?" Kinda sixties, I know. But it does happen. Anyway, consider these folks as the filler material. They're just out there for a good time and a party.

I can understand those in the first group. I can understand the third group. But it is the second group that really twists my guts.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
cfalk
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RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 3:07 pm

By the way, I feel that the approximate breakdown of the anti-war folks into the three groups I described above is approx:

1) less than 5%
2) 60-70%
3) 30-40%
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 3:25 pm

I disagree with you, Cfalk; the first group has to be bigger than 5%.

I, for one, believe that the war against Iraq is inappropriate at this time, but I do not oppose war in general; there have been plenty of justified wars throughout history, including the past decade. I just beleve that there has to be a damn good reason to start an armed conflict (which should always be a final resort), and I don't see that now, even though I have, in fact, thought the issue through very carefully.

In my experience, many other people fall into your Number 1 category, and not just in relation to this conflict.
 
Guest

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 5:26 pm

L-188,

With all these people in agreement, it saddens me that you have to inject sarcasm into the discussion.

I agree with charles figures. I too am against the war in Iraq but tend to ask why people don't want a war rather than simply agreeing with them. Generally you get nothing out of them but "it's bad", or "america is evil". No substance to their anti-war stand. It's quite sickening. It doesn't matter what side you take as long as you have clear cut reasons for doing so.

Regardless, there is no reason to take out their disgust at a political decision on those who are simply doing their job.

Leave the Military alone!




ADG
 
ILOVEA340
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 9:49 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 5:29 pm

I totaly agree. I hate the military but not the average soldier. I hate the military planners and the President who in the end has the say (yes hate is a strong word, but those are my feelings)
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 5:41 pm

1) Those people who have actually thought carefully about the issues, and have specific set of reasoned arguments on why a war should not be fought in this particular case.

2) Those who have not thought about it at all, but are simply against war in any way, shape or form. To them ANY solution (including surrender) is better than war.

3) The hangers on. The guys who tag along hoping to get into the pants of some peace-girl. She: (sucking on a joint) "Gee, wouldn't it be swell if we all just loved one another?" He: "You wanna start with me?" Kinda sixties, I know. But it does happen. Anyway, consider these folks as the filler material. They're just out there for a good time and a party.


That's brilliant! And I agree with your figures as well. I have a few friends who go to these anti-war protests. One of them fits into the 5% group, and the others fit into categories 2 and 3 nicely. A few just toe the "war sucks" or "America is evil" line because they're not too bright or they're incapable of forming any sort of independent rational thought. The others just go to bone some chick or hook up a blunt and that's it. Sure, they chant the slogans, but their real motives speak for themselves. Most of the anti-war protesters I know are hardcore drug users (but not the one in the 5% category. She's an administrator at a nursing home here and I have a ton of respect for her). Not to put them all in that category, but it would not surprise me if a lot of them fit the stoner description.

Other than that, I agree with ADG's original post to the "T".
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:06 pm

Thanks, ADG! That's a good way to describe at whom criticism has to be aimed. The men in the F-XXs are not the ones to blame for war, those are the ones in Washington and before all the one in Bagdad.

Cfalk, I can't figure what of your groups I fit in. I'm generally against war, but I do consider defence against beligerent leaders justifiable, to say the least. It's just the whole idea of war and armed conflicts that disgusts me. If only everybody knew how to sit down and talk...
As for the possible war in Iraq, my opinion has definitely been formed by arguments. This opinion of mine would change fast if new substantial arguments in favour of war came up.
So I guess I'm standing between groups number one and two.

aloges
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:07 pm

As much as I hate to be the odd one out ... surely it is not as simple as that. Certainly in a modern democracy service people are instruments of policy more than they are instigators of policy and as such bear less responsiblity for unpopular actions than they are often accused of having.

That said, someone dropped the bomb/pulled the trigger or whatever and must take at least some responsibilty for what they do. The concept of being admonished of responsibilty because you were only following orders was well and truely debunked at Nuremburg and rightly so.

Politicians bear ultimate but not sole responsibilty !
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Hamfist
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:40 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 12:45 am

As an active military-type, I have found rare occasion to agree with pacificjourney.

Military officers are well versed in their chain of command and the importance of following orders. The military commander (at every level) must ask him/herself if an order received qualifies as a lawful order. Most officers will tell you they ask themselves if an order is illegal, immoral or unethical. Should it fail to qualify against any of these three criteria, there is a basis for not following an order.

That said, any officer with a basic level of common sense knows we don't live in a perfect world. There will be times when an unlawful order will be executed, yet will go unpunished. There will also be times when the decision NOT to follow an unlawful order will cause a commander suffer repercussions. Shouldn't happen, but hey...that's life!

Now, in reference to the theme of this thread, it's safe to say that military commanders cannot determine whether we go to war. On that level, you truly can't blame the military if we do enter conflict with Iraq.

 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:10 am

Come on Ham, not the 'shit happens' defense please.

Ultimately individuals are responsible for what they do or don't do. Some arguement can of course be made about how they (military people) find themselves in situations where such decisions are required (sent under orders) but the buck must stop somewhere.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 2:55 am

Pacificjourney, I think you are definitely the "odd man out" in almost any subject like this. Of course, you'd be the one to go spit on the soldier, returning home to family and home, wouldn't you? The soldiers do know the risk, and yes, following orders, as Neuremberg showed us, is not a defense for one's actions, but again, if soldiers conduct themselve accordingly, and simply do their duty, they don't need to be spit on by the likes of you.
 
Hamfist
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:40 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 3:07 am

PacificJourney,

At what point did I attempt to defend anything? I was simply stating the reality of command decisions. If you look at the history of conflict, there are commanders who have made hideously unethical decisions and nothing ever happened to them and there have been commanders who have found themselves in a situation where they declined to be involved in less than honorable intentions and were subsequently replaced with a different person who was more willing to "follow the leader". The latter happened a few times in the Clinton years.

I'm not defending those who make bad decisions and I am well aware the unlimited liability applied to every decision officers make.
 
Guest

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:58 am

While I also am impressed with ADG's reasoned statements, I sense a great deal of hypocrisy on her part.

The same ADG beckoning the world to respect the military because they are just following orders is also the same woman who has used these forums time and time again to rail mercilessly against the Israeli army, never once minding that they "are at the beck and call of the government" and "they do not deserve the hatred".

So while ADG can celebrate her little love fest in this thread, I still have serious reservations about her credibility.

TNNH
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 8:22 am

I still like this poem, although it sends PJ into a horrible rage to read it.

The Soldier

It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.


By Charles M. Province

And he's absolutely right.
 
Guest

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:39 am

TNNH,

ROFL .. .another pathetic attempt to start a flame war? Not today little boy .. not today...





ADG
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:41 am

Well, I wasn´t there and I have not seen how they protested, but don´t you think it has more of a symbolic character if someone protests when the fleet leaves the harbour? I do not think the protest was aimed at those serving in the military in the first place.

It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.


To this day I have never burned any flag. The reason: I do not give a *** about a flag. I do not salute nor will I ever serve under one and I sure hope no flag will be draped across my coffin.
What I mean to say: As long as military service is voluntarily those who are in the military must realise there are many ppl who despise their work. And I bet they can easily cope with that.

Btw, history has shown that high ranked army personel often acts stupidly, so why not also aim protests at them?

Again, no soldier (on either side) is responsible for the (upcoming) Gulf War (and most other wars), but first, I exclude any high ranked personell from that, and secondly, if you are free to choose if to enter the military I find it difficult to feel any respect for them.

a good and peaceful night
Stratofish
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Hamfist
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:40 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:17 am

Stratofish,

I hope that brain vomit made your head fell a little better!

Let's see if I heard you correctly...you don't like anyone who voluntarily chooses an honorable profession by serving in the military. You don't blame soldiers for war, but you hold them in higher contempt if they are successful and are promoted to the highest levels and at that point they might be held responsible for this war? Seems like a pretty ambiguous philosophy from which to derive your opinion of those in uniform if you ask me!

 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:40 am

1. I knew I would be in for some bashing, but your first sentence is barely worth reading.

2. We simply have a different opinion about what´s an honorable profession. I just meant to say that if you choose to serve the military there will always be ppl who will dislike it, just as if you choose to deliver mail there will always be dogs that do not like your clothes. Both soldiers and mailmen(women) will become used to it. Got my point?

3. Do you disagree that many high ranked army ppl openly support G.W.´s "I want war because we are capable of fighting" stand? The general wants to fight, the protestors have to put him on a leash.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:41 am

While I also am impressed with ADG's reasoned statements, I sense a great deal of hypocrisy on her part.

I do not, TNNH. ADG and I rarely agree, but I will defend her on this one. She's always shown that she cares about the men and women who serve in the Aussie Armed Forces. She's been very consistent about that on here, and it's a bit hypocritical for you to call her on that one. She doesn't deserve it, and I think you're dead wrong.

It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.


Yes, and it's right-wing nuts, MD90, who want to make it a crime for the protest to burn the flag. So, according to this poem, that demeans what the soldier fights and dies for, doesn't it?



 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 11:00 am

Alpha1, no one is spitting on anyone. I have actually worn a uniform myself for 6 years but am able to be objective. Sorry to interupt your little love-fest but try argueing what I say and stop getting emotional.

You often espouse the idea of personal responsibility on here but what, put on a uniform and it no longer applies ?

" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 11:16 am

You often espouse the idea of personal responsibility on here but what, put on a uniform and it no longer applies ?

Absolutely not, PJ. If a soldier knows an order violates International Law, or would be a war crime, then he should refuse it. It may be tough to do that, but it should be done. But if he's conducting himself with honor and dignity, then he should be treated with honor and dignity, in my opinion. If he steps over the boundaries of what's acceptable and says he's "just following orders", that doesn't cut it. Don't put words into my mouth.
 
Guest

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:26 pm

That time is for family. Those young men/women may not come back, this may be the last time their families see them, do you think you'd like to be farewelling your loved one for what may be the last time ever to the chants of "baby killers" or similar?

Do you think it's appropriate to screach obscenties at the children of military personell?

It was, is, and remains, highly inappropriate but not surprising that these people put their own ignorant selfish opinions in front of common sense and decency (as usual).



ADG
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:44 pm

I suppose it does. I think anyone who would actually try to burn Old Glory (here's a hint: it doesn't burn very well) is scum, but it's not illegal nor should it be.
 
Guest

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Mon Jan 27, 2003 3:33 am

.. not today...

Thats fine. Just another day your sincerity remains highly suspect by myself and many others.

ta ta woman,

TNNH
 
Guest

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:55 am

TNNH,

I notice nobody bit at this or your other attempt at flamebait, you're losing it TNNH ... but then, not only do those who agree with me on subjects such as Israel know what you are .. it seems that those who disagree with me on those very subjects are figuring it out too.

So son, I guess not today becomes not anyday  Smile/happy/getting dizzy.


ADG
 
Guest

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:29 am

So son, I guess not today becomes not anyday

Even better hypocrite.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:56 am

Well said Bron.
You know we don't often agree (and we may not on whether going out there is a good decision or not  Laugh out loud) but I fully support you if you say to leave the troops to do the job they're given as long as that job is legal within the law of their country (iow, ordering Japanese troops to invade a foreign country would be illegal because Japanese law prohibits that specifically since the 1945 armistice).
I wish I were flying
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:07 pm

TNNH: I generally don't agree with your view on Israël, but I'm not here to make enemies with anyone so I keep my mouth shut, but I find a distinct difference between those going off to war in a foreign land to the Israeli army. While, I don't agree with the Palestinians either (personally, I could give two shits about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict), I do feel that the Israeli army rides the razor fine line between reacting and being utterly unethical in its practices. So, let's just leave Israël out of this.

Personally, as much as I am against this war, I would never do anything towards a serviceman or woman. In fact, I respect them highly, and those who do are wrong.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Guest

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:18 pm

LH423:

I care not wheather you agree or disagree with my views on Israel. The point is not about Israel. The point is that Ms. ADG here is preaching about giving servicemen respect and defference. And I have no problem with that, in fact I think its great. But little Ms. ADG hardly practices what she preaches. A cursory search of her past will highlight her unyiedling and beligernent hated of Israeli soldiers, the same proffession of those our Australian friend exhorts us to remember "they are simply doing the job they signed up for" and "they do not deserve the hatred".

TNNH
 
Guest

RE: Leave The Military Alone!

Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:47 pm

Actually LH423,

What TNNH really means is that he doesn't like me because I don't agree with his incessant rantings on israel so therefore whatever I say he would have to take issue with.

My care factor = zero.



ADG (and thats Mrs ADG to you TNNH)

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