MD-90
Topic Author
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Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:44 am

With friends like these...
Pat Buchanan
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31200

"'Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world," wrote Washington to his countrymen in his Farewell Address.

Aware that it was the alliance with France in 1778 that saved our Revolution, Washington did not oppose all alliances, just permanent ones. Jefferson, too, warned against "entangling alliances."

We are today relearning the lessons our Fathers taught us.

Turkey, a NATO ally of 50 years, whom we bailed out a dozen times with IMF loans, is holding up President Bush for $32 billion in cash and loan guarantees before Ankara will let U.S. troops transit the country.

Why are the Turks engaged in such naked extortion?

Cold national interests. Ninety percent of Turks oppose a U.S. war on Iraq, and the Turks want to be rewarded for signing on. They also want to be made whole from the last Gulf War, where they lost billions in commerce because of our crushing of Iraq.

Israel, recipient of $100 billion in U.S. aid, is demanding another $15 billion to hold our coat as we fight her war against Iraq. Yet Sharon dismisses Bush's plea to stop expanding the West Bank settlements that are at the heart of the Palestinian Intifada that so inflames the Arab world against us. And by the way, says Sharon, the United States should disarm Iran, Syria and Libya, after we finish with Iraq.

Consider the Saudis. In August 1990, President Bush sent the 82nd Airborne to protect the kingdom from an Iraqi army that had just invaded Kuwait. We built permanent U.S. bases there, costing billions. Now we are told by Crown Prince Abdullah that the bases cannot be used in a war with Iraq and that, without U.N. approval, this will be a "war of aggression."

Germany, whose freedom we defended for half a century, is now sabotaging the president's effort to unite the Security Council behind a U.S. resolution to authorize war to disarm Iraq. To save himself in last year's election, Chancellor Schroeder pandered to the anti-Americanism now widespread in his country.

France was twice liberated by the blood of U.S. soldiers whose remains lie in French graves. Yet, President Chirac today threatens to veto any U.N. resolution that would give Bush authority to send the grandsons of those U.S. soldiers to liberate the people of Iraq.

South Korea would not exist today had not tens of thousands of American soldiers made the supreme sacrifice in the war of 1950-53. Yet in last year's campaign, South Korea's new president also played the anti-American card, pledging to review the relationship between Seoul and Washington and the need for U.S. troops to remain on Korean soil.

When the crisis over North Korea's nuclear weapons erupted, he helpfully offered to "mediate" between his defender, the United States, and his enemy, North Korea, which has thousands of artillery pieces on his northern border aimed at his capital city.

"We shall astonish the world with our ingratitude," said the Italian statesman Cavour. "The state is a cold monster," echoed DeGaulle, who ordered NATO out of Paris in 1966.

But to Americans enraged at this seeming ingratitude, consider our own record before we became a world power. Twelve years after the British defeated our enemies in the French and Indian War, American patriots were shooting down British soldiers on the Concord Road.

Washington wept with joy at the alliance with France in 1778, but one year after Yorktown, American diplomats were back-channeling the British to conclude a separate peace at the expense of France.

"Let us be grateful to the French for what they have done for us," said John Jay to Ben Franklin, "but let us think for ourselves. And, if need be, let us act for ourselves."

In 1812, we declared war on our Mother Country when she was in a death struggle with Napoleon. Young America was beholden to no one.

This is the world as it is, not as we sentimental Americans would wish it to be. When South Korea and Europe needed us, our troops were welcome, and they remain welcome as long as we wish to defend them, but please do not ask them to sacrifice their selfish interests in some higher American cause. Or be prepared to bribe them.

Can it still be unclear to President Bush that not only does the world not share his fear of Iraq, tens of millions of Europeans and Arabs fear and detest us even more? And if Uncle Sam wants their help in ousting Saddam, they will charge him an arm and a leg for it.

Come home, Sam, the war's over. Let our ungrateful dependents fend for themselves. They're not worth it, old man.

 
Guest

RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 6:02 am

Excellent post MD-90. I could not have said it better myself.
 
cba
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:19 am

Guys, this is coming from Pat Buchanan, not exactly the wisest place to get news from...
 
Ilyushin96M
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:58 am

I worry about anyone who buys into Buchanan's BS. He and Falwell rank high up in the loony Christian Fundamentalists. They are probably the scariest in terms of the way they think.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:54 am

MD-90, Pat Buchanan is one of the most xenophobic Americans in existence. Remember, this is a nut who wants to arm the Mexican border, simply becuase he doesn't like Mexicans.

What he writes should get exactly the credibility it deserves-absolutely none. He's a disgrace to the historical tolerance and good will that Americans have always shown throughout it's history. If you think he's something great, you're a fool.
 
MD-90
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 11:07 am

I don't think he's something great, but I do think he has a point, usually, and doesn't deserve to be blatantly written off like some of y'all love to do.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:07 pm

Sure he deserves to be blatantly written off, MD-90. He's a bitter white man who thinks the world has giving him a raw deal. He's a xenophobe; he's a racist; he's anti-wman; he's an ultra-conservative's wet dream.

He's the last person who should speak for the United States.
 
Ilyushin96M
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:09 pm

I'll further my own comments and this discussion by saying Buchannan and Falwell are as fanatical in their beliefs and practises as Bin Laden and the other Islamic fundies. These are the American terrorists we need to watch out for.
 
DG_pilot
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:38 pm

To EVEN suggest two innocent citizens are the equivalent of Islamic fanatics, such as Bin Laden, who have killed THOUSANDS of people is sickening and just plain wrong. How dare you say that about anyone! What you said Ilyushin96M says a lot about YOU.
 
Ilyushin96M
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:40 pm

Dg_pilot: Don't talk to me about stuff like this, kid, until you've lived a little more.
 
cba
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:15 pm

Buchanan and Fallwell are in line with radical right-wing terrorists such as Timothy McVeigh. Fallwell and Buchanan are part of what I like to call the American Taliban.
 
Guest

RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:18 pm

Would you add Michael Moore and Al Sharpton to your "American Taliban" list?

[Edited 2003-02-25 05:18:44]
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:59 pm

Hey, I've got an idea, let's all just tell those other folks to fuck off. Who needs friends? We can terrorize the whole world alone.
Dear moderators: No.
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:42 pm

You're what, 30 and you think you're so old an wise? Bah!

Dg_pilot's absolutely right. And the American Taliban? Give me a break, how can spout such rubbish?

Have any of you (mainly 96M and CBA, although Alpha 1 this really does apply to you too) actually READ the article instead of just dismissing it out of hand?

Geez...
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 8:56 pm

Yes, I read the article, MD-90. Buchanan is a maniac. And it tells me loads about you if you give him any creedence.
 
radarbeam
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:18 pm

Buchanan is a moron, an ultra-conservative jackass. Everything that comes out of this guy's mouth is garbage. "American Taliban" describes him very well.

DG_pilot, the American taliban anecdote is used to compare the mentality level of Buchanan, it has nothing to do with how many people died at the hands of the taliban. Stop acting like you don't know that.
 
N79969
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Tue Feb 25, 2003 11:03 pm

Despite his many, many flaws, he makes a good point in this editorial. I agree with him on this issue. Attack the message and not the messenger.
 
Ilyushin96M
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:04 am

Actually, yes, MD-90, I HAVE read the article. I've read lots of articles written by Buchanan, as a matter of fact. I'm glad people discount his BS heavily enough to not take him seriously as a presidential candidate.

You and many others ignore a very dangerous faction in our society. Maybe "American Taliban" is an inappropriate term for these maniacs, but rest assured, you wouldn't want any of them in a position of power. If that should happen, they would make what the current administration is doing to screw things up look like paddycakes, and there would be US citizens applying for assylum in any country they could get to just to get out of here.

As far as the whole age thing, I rarely take people in the 16-20 age group seriously, because for the most part, their life experience is limited to textbooks and trips with their families around the US and to foreign countries. How can you have a strong opinion about something if you haven't had any experience to back it up? A view of the world outside the US, as well as seeing our country through the eyes of others, is very enlightening, even sobering.

Tell me, what is YOUR take on Buchanan? Putting aside his ultra-conservative religious views, of course, which seem to be in line with your own. I can't believe anyone with any bit of intelligence would agree with his isolationist ideas. Thankfully, that's not where the world is heading.
 
N79969
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:30 am

I certainly hope that Buchanan never gets into a position of power. However, the US is being subject to shake-downs, slanders, and abuse of our soldiers from our "allies." There is no chance that we will go into isolationism. But it would not hurt to remind the world of what would happened if we did retreat.

If Europe had to fill the vacuum if the US withdrew, their generous social welfare systems would be out the door.

If the US told Turkey, "screw Iraq- we'll let France and Germany deal and screw your extortion racket- you get nothing", I would get a good laugh.

If the US actually left South Korea, they would have to become a military state using every last resource to guard against the North.

Part of me wishes we would withdraw from the rest of the world to spare ourselves the risk, expense, and indignities that we suffer defending ungrateful allies. However, I know that is not a realistic option.
 
GDB
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 2:27 am

A BBC journalist wrote this piece, with something for both sides of the argument.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,902240,00.html
 
Toner
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:25 am

I was Pat's Congressional Delegate from the 4th CD in NJ when he ran for President in 1992.

He's a better columist than a politician.
 
N79969
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:32 am

That was a good article GDB.

Pre- 12/7/1941, America wanted to mind its own business. I would describe our efforts in liberating Europe as enlightened self-interest from which Europe benefitted immensely.
 
MD-90
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:21 am

I'll second that. I liked that article.
 
777236ER
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:25 am

I'll second that. I liked that article.

You like an article by a racist xenophobic extremist?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:38 pm

I'm refering to the Guardian article there, 777236ER.
 
airplay
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:05 pm

Why doesn't Pat mention that the US was instrumental in helping to develop so many of the societies that he is accusing of being bad?

Why doesn't he point out that the US is constantly in blatent contradiction with the free trade agreements it formed with other countries?

How about how they left so many half-Americans behind whenever they occupied foreign countries in some twisted police action to save the world from communism?

How about propping up the terrorist state Israel in it's attempt to wipe out the Arab world?

How about the Shah of Iran? Remember him? Castro? Saddam himself? And numerous central and south American heads of state supported by the US and later shunned?

Who the hell needs friends like the US?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:20 pm

How about propping up the terrorist state Israel in it's attempt to wipe out the Arab world?

If the U.S. and Israel TRULY had this as their goal, believe me, there'd be no Arab world right now.

As for the rest, what makes you so bitter, Airplay?
 
airplay
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:27 pm

Alpha1

Bitter...not really. Amazed at the ignorance...yes.

You have people here supporing Pat Buchanan jabbering without even considering the US's role (good bad or otherwise) in the issues. I'm just stating them for the record.

Obviously some of the statements are subjective, but the majority are not.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:32 pm

Yo, Airplay: you've had two flamewar threads deleted in the last 15 minutes. Care to go for an unassisted Triple Play?  Big grin
 
mirrodie
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:34 pm

Airplay, that's 2 threads so far, right?

You started your points here, so keep them here and don;t start another thread on the same issue.

I usually don't came about the political and religious debate that nonsensically goes on here. But you are incredulous. You are typifiyng American people whilst the people you ought to be bithiching about is the BUS h administration.

Otherwise, your banter is just pissing off a few Americans here.

(Oh, BTW, in another recently deleted post, Airplay mentioned this site being PRO-US. It seems like just yesterday that someone was calling the site anti-American. Amazing.)
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
MD-90
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:35 pm

Airplay, you need to read my other thread, Fascinating Article By An Arab On The Conflict
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:37 pm

(Oh, BTW, in another recently deleted post, Airplay mentioned this site being PRO-US. It seems like just yesterday that someone was calling the site anti-American. Amazing.)

Mirrode, NOTHING here amazes me anymore: on a thread last week, in the span of a few posts, I was called both a left-wing nut and a right-wing nut? Just par for the course, paisan!
 
airplay
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:43 pm

Let's try to stick to the topic...I'm not the one dragging my other posts into this thread.

Present your comments and try to find any inaccuracies. Or can't you?

Kiss kiss....
 
mirrodie
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:44 pm

Hey, Paisan, you are...... MIXED NUTS!!  Big thumbs up

You are a melting pot and the American dream!


Airplay notes that he is amazed at the ignorance. Is it not equally ignorant to criticize a whole country for the actions of their leader?
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
airplay
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RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:46 pm

Mirrodie

Also I find it sort of inappropriate to be flamed by the very guy who has the power (and excercised it twice today) to delete my posts without question.

You may by now have received my request to delete your own post on this thread because it's irrelevant. Try to stick to the topic in the future and feel free to delete this one too...
 
Guest

RE: Why Does America Need Friends Like These?

Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:50 pm

Il96M says:

"""I worry about anyone who buys into Buchanan's BS. He and Falwell rank high up in the loony Christian Fundamentalists. They are probably the scariest in terms of the way they think."""

I couldn't agree with you more. We in Australia laugh at these dudes antics - but we don't see them as representative of *real* America.

I'm seriously getting a little worried about where MD-90 is sourcing his fundie propaganda from. It's all rather subversive tripe that is designed to upset as many people as possible (or his target groups - gay's / lefties) without being directly labelled as flamebait.

I've seen people operate like this before.

mb

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