jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:55 am

I'm tired of watching these "human shields" on television who think that they will make a difference in the bombing of Iraq. Do they think that most of us (as Americans) actually care about them? Seriously, if these "human shields" are at site which is due to be bombed, I really think that we should go ahead and just bomb the site....whether they are there or not. These people know the risks going into such an undertaking, and by deciding to stand around an "empty food warehouse" (as Iraq calls it) they run the risk of getting bombed. The bottom line is that if we hold up bombing because of these people, then we certainly run the risk of allowing the Iraqi troops to move supplies and whatever is due to be bombed. If that isnt giving aid to an enemy, I dont know what is. However, we should make it known to these protestors/human shields that if they decide to "guard" a site that will be bombed, that we WILL NOT stop because of them.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
TWAL1011
Posts: 2317
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:39 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:57 am

Jcs, jcs, jcs...

Of course we care about them. I do, anyway.

They're people just like us. They just have their priorities a little messed up.
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:58 am

Jcs17: Are you a misanthrope? Just curious.



FSP
 
Guest

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:03 pm

I think we shouldn't intentionally target them. However, they know they are putting their lives at risk by being in Iraq.

I think I agree with TWA, they just have their priorities a little messed up but they certainly aren't evil people. I'm sure some of them have families.
 
kolobokman
Posts: 1112
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 5:32 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:05 pm

I like people.




-I
I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:05 pm

Lets get one thing straight, I dont think we should intentionally target these people. I do think that we should go about the war the same way we would had these people not been in Iraq. And yes, I trust man kind, to a certain extent  Big grin
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
TWAL1011
Posts: 2317
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:39 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:05 pm

Though you're at the other end of the political spectrum, JCS, you're treading into Airplay territory with this one.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:06 pm

While well-meaning, they are naive if they think the US will try to avoid hitting the areas thay are in because they are there.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Thumper
Posts: 520
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2001 2:12 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:12 pm

When and if this war actually starts these people will run! When planes start flying overhead there grandstanding will end!
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:16 pm

How will they know where to go? Will the Iraqi's tell them where good military targets are? Will they trust them? How will the military know where they are? What will happen to them after the shit starts getting thick and most of them change their minds? Will they be used and suddenly be forced to shield blindfolded? (Think of the propaganda material a bunch of dead westerners will provide). I hope none of the damn fools get hurt, but I suspect the the Allies will not change one tactical plan because of them.
"Shaddap you!"
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:17 pm

Unfortunately, the war will likely be so intense, that these people will not be able to run. Many will likely be killed.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:30 pm

What sane person could possibly think that by voluntarily standing in front of a potential target, they could prevent the worlds most powerful military which is posed to strike and strike hard is beyond me.

Today's human shield is tomorrows recipient of the Darwin Award.
Congratulations! LOL

"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
desertjets
Posts: 7570
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:31 pm

Frankly I worry MUCH more about Iraqi citizens who may be used as human shields. They have virtually no control over this, whereas the anti-war human shields have made a conscious decision to do so.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:48 pm

Not in the least. These delusional fools are there on their own accord, and it shouldn't affect anything tha is done if a conflict with Iraq breaks out. If they want to die along with a thug like Saddam, so be it. I just don't want any of their delusional families over here suing after the fact. That would top it off, wouldn't it?
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:53 pm

If Iraqi civilians are forced to be human shields by Soooodamn Insane, then that is a war crime. We will continue laying our ordinance, and charge him later. That is if..... he still alive.
 
TWAL1011
Posts: 2317
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:39 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:57 pm

These delusional fools...

Yes, that's exactly what they are. Do I care about them? You bet. Do I sympathize with them? No.

 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 1:04 pm

We do care about them. Saddam uses innocent civilians and POW's as human shields.
 
Ilyushin96M
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 1999 3:15 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 1:43 pm

Well, if these people went to Iraq and volunteered to be human shields, then I don't think any special care should be taken to avoid hitting them. I mean, practically speaking, if these idiots went there intentionally, as we all know they did, to put themselves in harm's way, what's to come of it if they are killed? It's the same when someone lies down on a train track in the path of an oncoming train...nothing to be done, if they won't get out of the way.

The question I have is, where are these idiots putting themselves - in munitions dumbs, nuclear plants, weapons manufacturing sites, etc., or in schools, hospitals and other civilian areas?

FYI - anyone who thinks these people are being FORCED into the human shield position by Saddam Hussein is not paying attention. These people DELIBERATELY traveled to Iraq to serve in that capacity.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 1:53 pm

Why would the US care about killing a few hundred innocent people in Iraq? They didn't care about indiscriminately whacking a few hundred thousand civilian men woman and children in Japan.

I think they call it "collateral damage" or some dehumanizing term like that...

I don't think the human shields are under some misguided idea that they will avert attack. In an interview at least one said they are there to make a statement that the war is wrong and unsubstantiated and they are showing defiance. Not support for Iraq. It's called risking your life for what you believe in.

I wouldn't do it personally because I'm just not that passionate about the whole thing. Believe it or not, I think Saddam is evil and misguided. But Geroge is a bit of a nutbar himself.
 
dc863
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:05 pm

I guarantee that the sound of roaring jets overhead on afterburners, AAA fire, and exploding 1000 and 2000lb JDAMS will make most everyone run for the nearest bunker and hunker down.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:15 pm

They didn't care about indiscriminately whacking a few hundred thousand civilian men woman and children in Japan.

Yeah, the Japanese shouldve thought about that before starting a war  Yeah sure I hope all Canadians dont think about America the way that you do.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
ryu2
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:18 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:20 pm

Well, US intelligence knew that there were about 12 US POWs in Hiroshima, but they still nuked it in 1945. So, I wouldn't think different for Iraq.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:53 pm

I hope all Canadians dont think about America the way that you do.

No worries JCS! This Canadian (as are most) is proudly pro-American. Unfortunately, Canada does have a stable of bitter anti-American socialists.....they are found disproportionally in our poorer provinces.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:03 pm

Username: Airplay
From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 772 posts, RR: 9
Reply: 18
Posted Thu Feb 27 2003 05:53:49 UTC+1 and read 28 times:
Why would the US care about killing a few hundred innocent people in Iraq? They didn't care about indiscriminately whacking a few hundred thousand civilian men woman and children in Japan.

I think they call it "collateral damage" or some dehumanizing term like that...

I don't think the human shields are under some misguided idea that they will avert attack. In an interview at least one said they are there to make a statement that the war is wrong and unsubstantiated and they are showing defiance. Not support for Iraq. It's called risking your life for what you believe in.

I wouldn't do it personally because I'm just not that passionate about the whole thing. Believe it or not, I think Saddam is evil and misguided. But Geroge is a bit of a nutbar himself.



Homeslice.... Check this out. I think you lost all credibility last night, saying "Bush is the next Hitler". Any of your posts after that one can be summed up in one short phrase.... Laughable at Best

Good day.


 
Guest

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:15 pm

No. Anyone stupid enough to volunteer to be collateral damage doesn't deserve to pass on their genes.

'Speed
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:21 pm

How easy it is for you to talk from the comfort of your chair. How many of you plan to enlist, I wonder....
Dear moderators: No.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:24 pm

Ryu you have a link about those 12 POW's.

I am not harping or digging at you, I am just curious to read a bit more about them.

As far as these guys go. I wouldn't lose sleep over them. They made the choice to sit on a prime target.

Maybe more lives would be saved if others learn from the mistakes these people made in assuming that a target wouldn't be hit if they where standing on it.

Besides if the choice came between saving the lives of your troops and saving the lives of some human shield protesters, your own troops have to come first and the saved lives may outnumber the protesters.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Illini_152
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 6:00 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:51 pm

Personally, I think that if any of these morons (and that's what they are, more on that later) surrvive, when they return to this country they should be tried for treason.

They are for all intesnive purposes raising up arms against their home country in a time of war by going to a hostile governement and volunteering their services to disrupt military operations.

If they think that once they get to Iraq they will be allowed to choose which stratigic "civillian" targets they will be defending, they are naive. If they think that the US military intentionally targets civillians in this day and age they are more naive.

They also plan on guarding stratigic targets like oil fields. What happens when US Commandos are killed while trying to capture these fields (to prevent Saddam from setting them afire like he did in the past) because of the actions of these traitors.

You have a right to disagree with your government. You have a right to protest and demonstrate. You do NOT have a right to aid the enemy in a time of war. THAT is called treason, and last I checked, was a capital offence.

We should call them what they are:

Traitors.

--
Mike O'Malley
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:29 pm

I suppose we will soon know who will be the winners of the 2003 Darwin Awards.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
707CMF
Posts: 4698
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:39 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:44 pm

Call them what you want. Morons ? Darwin Award candidates ?

They stand up for what they believe is right, and even you disagree with them, you should not disminish the fact that they are willing to die for their beliefs.

Do you call that stupidity ? I call that courage.

Look at the photo below. I'm sure you've already seen it at least once. Is this student a moron, or a hero ?



Antoine, nauseous
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:58 pm

Antoine,

Firstly, The man you showed on the picture was not defending a dictatorship - he was rather moving against it.

Secondly, he was acting in his own country.

And Thirdly, his country executed him for his act of defiance, proving his point. He was shot in the head and his family billed for the bullet. These human shields will not suffer the same fate when they return to the US or elsewhere.

Courage in the face of overwhelming odds must be combined with the wisdom to choose your fights well.

The Chinese man in front of the tanks chose his side well and had courage. That makes him a hero. It also cost him his life - which he probably knew would happen. That, in combination for the courages and wisdom he showed, makes him a martyr.

The human shields are defending a regime that is killing 15,000 of its own citizens every month. They may have courage (yet to be proven), but no wisdom, and that makes them Darwin Award candidates.

Don't compare the Chinese man with the human shields. It is an insult to his memory and what he died for.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
keesje
Posts: 8748
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 9:42 pm

Charles, what is the "right side" & who determines this ?

Mujahedin were also heroes, before their more extremic Islamic beliefs came into the spotlights ... Perhaps attitude towards VC fighters will be different too in say 20 yrs ..

The freshness of "right side" judgements is limited in my experience.

If Iraq turns into a terrible bloodbad opinions on different party's will change too...
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 10:14 pm

Why would the US care about killing a few hundred innocent people in Iraq? They didn't care about indiscriminately whacking a few hundred thousand civilian men woman and children in Japan.

I see you forgot one little caveat, Airplay: Japan started that conflict, didn't they? They didn't care about killing people they were not at war with. But, to warped minds like you, the U.S. is still in the wrong. The U.S. wasn't wrong then. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. But, as usual, you find it as a way to bash the U.S.

Ever think that had Japan not started a war, none of it's innocent woman and children would have died? Of course you didn't.

They stand up for what they believe is right, and even you disagree with them, you should not disminish the fact that they are willing to die for their beliefs.

Not really. They're not willing to die. They live such a delusional existence that they think they can STOP OTHERS FROM DYING. And they're not doing this so much for anything they believe in, but more in WHO they don't like and oppose.

And, as Charles said, they're standing on the side, whether they want to or not, of a murderous dictator, who has killed his own people in droves. Do you think these clueless wonders ever stopped for a second to consider that? No, because they are so blinded by antipathy for the U.S. that it never enters their surreal minds.
 
707CMF
Posts: 4698
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:39 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:02 pm

The problem, as you see, is there is no right or wrong side.
They are not standing on the side of a murderous dictator, they are standing on the side of innocent civilians.

Saddam is a bad guy, yes, we know that, and they know that. But would those civilians be better of killed as collateral damage ?

Remember in the Gospels what Jesus said about the good seed and the cockle. The Lord said that if we try to kill the cockle among the good seed, we'll end up damaging the good seed. Don't you see some similarities ?

Firstly, The man you showed on the picture was not defending a dictatorship - he was rather moving against it

They are moving again what they believe is not righteous. Dictatorships are not the only evil in this world.

Secondly, he was acting in his own country.
Are the US acting in their own country ?

Thirdly, his country executed him for his act of defiance, proving his point. He was shot in the head and his family billed for the bullet.
They'll probably end up killed as well.

Antoine



 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 12:12 am

Nope, they should be considered collateral damage if they are killed, they knew what they were doing. Also if they dont get killed (if they are Americans) they shouldnt be allowed back into this country, if they are taken into custody by friendly forces they should be treated as conspirators and traitors. Their actions may inhibit allied troops and pilots from doing their mission properly, and may actually jeopardize the lives of our troops by their actions.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 12:49 am

The UK human shields have indicated that they will be near power stations, due to concerns about what happens to hospitals that are deprived of power if the stations are hit, Iraqi military facilities will have back up generators, civilian facilities in Iraq mostly do not.
Also concerns about the spread of diseases on an already ravaged populace if water treatment plants are hit, as happen in 1991.
I would avoid the term 'collateral damage', a certain Tim McVeigh used it when asked about the kindergarten he wiped out with the Oklahoma bomb, as he was in the US Army in the 1991 war, I wonder where he got the term from?
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 1:51 am

The U.S. wasn't wrong then

In one instance it's ok to target civilians directly, and in other instances it's not? It's not being anti-American, I'm just wondering how the US can justify calling September 11th evil (note evil, not wrong) when it killed FAR more civillians in 1945.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 1:56 am

Cfalk beat me to it. These guys have nominated themselves for Darwin Awards. Saddam has been gracious enough to pay for lodging with stocked fridges for the days prior to the awards ceremony. What a guy.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:08 am

777236ER,

US actions actions in Japan ultimately saved lives. If the US invaded the Japanese islands, millions more would have died. I suggest you ask your question in Seoul or Nanking.

These 'human shields' have assumed the risk and whatever happens to them, happens to them.
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:12 am

777236ER, the fact that you need 1945 and 9/11 differenciated is frightening.

In WWII which country DIDN'T target civilians during bombing raids? Were there any? The atom bombs didn't kill anymore people than conventional carpet bombing did, it just achieved the same results with one bomb and one plane. Do you know how many civilians the bombings spared from a mainland Japan invasion? OK, now how many lives did the 9/11 attacks save? See, 1945 ended a war; 9/11 started one. Please tell me you're not that dumb. You usually aren't.
"Shaddap you!"
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:10 am

If the US invaded the Japanese islands, millions more would have died. I suggest you ask your question in Seoul or Nanking.

It's still a bit of a moot point. Terrorists are condemned for targeting civilians directly, which is still exactly what the US did, despite any greater good.

777236ER, the fact that you need 1945 and 9/11 differenciated is frightening.

You have to admit, they're pretty similar.

OK, now how many lives did the 9/11 attacks save? See, 1945 ended a war; 9/11 started one. Please tell me you're not that dumb. You usually aren't.

I admit the two bombs stopped the war, and for that I think they're justified. That's not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to show that terrosism is different to different people. One person's terrorist is justified. I was just trying to make you think a little
Your bone's got a little machine
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:37 am

If you want me to make me think, then argue why its justified. Saying 'because they thought it was' is NOT a viable argument to that point.
"Shaddap you!"
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:51 am

Hey, if these idiots want to get themselves killed this way, let them. We need to thin the herd out of dumbasses and dreamers. Hey, if you're dumb enough to go to a war zone and be a human shield, then go right ahead; there's not much opportunity for advancement in that field, just like with suicide (of as Fox New calls them, homicide) bombers. I don't think they'll be deliberately targeted, because they just happen to be at a site that will be getting bombed, we'll just refer to them as collateral damage, and nominate them for posthumous Darwin Awards.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:10 am

If you want me to make me think, then argue why its justified. Saying 'because they thought it was' is NOT a viable argument to that point

I'm not trying to justify them, I'm just showing how it could be justified! If the US attacks Iraq without a UN resolution and without Iraq attacking anyone else, the pre-emptive precedent has been set. Every country or terrorist organisation can do what they want, thanks to the precident set by the US! September 11th was condemned because it a. directly attacked civilians and b. was pre-emptive. If the US goes ahead with the war on Iraq in the near future, then throughout it's military history it would have done all the things it was condemning on September 11th!
Your bone's got a little machine
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:34 am

7,

Nobody was upset at Osama for 9/11 because it was pre-emptive. That's a non-issue. The entire reason the world came down on him was that he targeted civilians in large numbers, indiscriminately.

If it wasn't for the fact that Saddam was under active sanctions by the rest of the world, and that he defied them for 12 years, I would agree that there is no justification for the U.S. to head for Baghdad. But that is not the case - Saddam and his party must be considered as renegades from justice, tracked down and taken out.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:41 am

I'm not trying to justify them, I'm just showing how it could be justified! If the US attacks Iraq without a UN resolution and without Iraq attacking anyone else, the pre-emptive precedent has been set. Every country or terrorist organisation can do what they want, thanks to the precident set by the US! September 11th was condemned because it a. directly attacked civilians and b. was pre-emptive. If the US goes ahead with the war on Iraq in the near future, then throughout it's military history it would have done all the things it was condemning on September 11th!

I agree with this, it's a very dangerous precedent to set.



ADG
 
Toner
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:53 pm

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:43 am

Winnie Mandella will be there.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:58 am

The entire reason the world came down on him was that he targeted civilians in large numbers, indiscriminately.

Like Hiroshiema? Nagasaki? Lots more people died.

NB. I'm not being anti-American or anti-Semetic or anti-MAtt D before anyone says it, I'm just trying to get people to think.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Illini_152
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 6:00 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:10 am

Slight differance.

Hiroshima and Nagisaki came about during times of declared war. The bombings were undertaken by a legitimate nation-state against another nation-state that we were at war with (a war of DEFENSE, remember). The weapons used were used willingly by the attacker, a civilian aircraft wasn't taken by force and rammed into the heart of the city with the atomic bomb onboard.

Also, if you are familiar with WWII history, the Japanese were prepared to fight to the last woman and child if we invaded. They all could be considered enemy combatants. US daylight bombing raids on Germany too didn't target civilians directly. They targeted stratigic targets where civilians may have worked. Oil refineries, factories, and such, these just happened to be near major population centers and the inaccuracies of carpet bombig resulted in massive collateral damage as well.

If you cannot see the differnace between the legal actions between nations at war, and the indiscriminate targeting of civilians in a criminal attack without the backing of a legtitimate nation state, then you sir, are beyond help.
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Should We Care If We Hit The Human Shields?

Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:19 am

If you cannot see the differnace between the legal actions between nations at war, and the indiscriminate targeting of civilians in a criminal attack without the backing of a legtitimate nation state, then you sir, are beyond help.

Please no personal insults, I was only asking. Legal actions? War's legal? So if Bush attacks Iraq - pre-emptivly - with no UN backing, it's an illegal war? He'll be attacking before war is declared, right? Hence pre-emptive?
Your bone's got a little machine

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: coolian2, DLFREEBIRD and 18 guests