cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

Are The French Being Honest?

Sat Mar 01, 2003 5:40 pm

The French say that war should be avoided at all costs for reasons of human rights.

I believe that the French are deathly afraid of the Americans, British and others invading Iraq and finding out all of the stuff that France, Germany, and (I hate to admit it, but I have to) Switzerland have sold to Iraq in spite of sanctions. Let's face it, all three of these countries will sell anything to anyone for cash.

Then of course there are all the business advantages that France and others have in dealing with a leader who refuses to deal with American or British companies.

So who believes the French are not being honest about their opposition to a an invasion of Iraq?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:07 pm

Is ANYONE being honest?



 Sad
 
AOMlover
Posts: 1191
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:03 pm

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:34 pm

Charles, do you REALLY think that we need another thread about the French position in this forum?
Scroll down, there are dozens of threads about France. Now this is getting to much.
I'm just so tired that as soon as I come in this forum, I see a new thread about how French ppl are bad, etc...
 
Guest

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:41 pm


Colin Powel has been caught lying
Bush has been caught lying
Howard has been caught lying
Blair has been caught lying
Hussein has been caught lying

So what exactly is your issue with the French lying?




ADG
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:52 pm

AOMlover,

I think that this is a valid question, and has not been approached quite this way on the forum. WHY are the French so against the romoval of Saddam? And not only the French, but others as well. Even Switzerland, my country, has theatened to make GW Bush persona non grata in Switzerland, which would call into question the G8 meeting in Evian this spring. I am deeply ashamed of my own country for stooping this low. Why are they doing this? I think that the government may be hiding something.

Once Allied troops go into Iraq, all sorts of documents and witnesses are going to surface, and at least the American and British governments will find out what nations were breaking sanctions. I think certain countries are very afraid of this.

One big question I have is whether the U.S. or U.K. would ever go public with this information. They might, in order to prove to the world that the opposition was not quite as "righteous" as they pretended, or they might keep it to themselves in order to maintain relations, and only discuss it at top diplomatic levels - for leverage, if anything else.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:01 pm

France being honest? Good question.
I see 2 points.
1/ France is an humanist country, no doubt. They would prefer a diplomatic/peaceful solution, and I think they sincerely believe that a war is not mandatory in the Iraq problem.
2/France has to protect their interests, and an US friendly government in place in Iraq won't be as profitable as a Saddam's one without embargo.

So I would say that they're honest on the fact that peace is better than war, but this would also protect their own interests as well.

I think the only country really honest must be Germany, that's a real pacific country, they've learnt from their mistakes.

On my side, if I have to choose between 2 countries lying, I would support the one against a war rather than the one that is about to launch yet another one.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
Guest

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:30 pm

Are they all really against the removal of Hussein or are they against the American method of waging war which leads to massive casualties including their own? Some people really do believe the people of Iraq have suffered enough in the last 12 years.






ADG
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:38 pm

or are they against the American method of waging war which leads to massive casualties including their own? Some people really do believe the people of Iraq have suffered enough in the last 12 years.

Exactly.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
dragogoalie
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 3:58 pm

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sat Mar 01, 2003 8:52 pm

I'm agreeing with OO-AOG on this, they Iraqi people have suffered enough under sadam. I'm for this war becuse of humanitarian rights, free the Iraqi people and allow them to rule themselves. Sadam is a freak, he has killed his own people before just because he didn't like them. Now that's disturbing. Ridding Sadam of the weapons of mass destruction that he supposedly has is just a bonus. I think Bush is going about this all wrong, while getting rid of WMD's is important, I think he would get more international support of he droned on about the humanitarian reasons, rather than the WMD's. Just my opinion.

--dragogoalie-#88--
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:17 pm

To Cfalk:

"...and finding out all of the stuff that France, Germany, and (I hate to admit it, but I have to) Switzerland have sold to Iraq in spite of sanctions."

This is an information which I have encountered on this board over the past couple of weeks. It is only partially true. Germany has been the largest supplier of Iraq during the sanctions with 80 companies involved, not France (8 companies). In second place comes the US, with 24 companies involved, 12 of them for the Iraq nuclear program!
(Sources: http://www.thememoryhole.org/corp/iraq-suppliers.htm http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=362566 and others.)

As for your thread, Cfalk, it is very easy to form an opinion based on the information you provided, but please, lets have ALL the information, also when its not favourable to the US. Only then we can all have a real discussion about this item.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:16 am

Schoenorama

Thanks for the info and link...very interesting. Maybe that's why the US are so sure that Saddam has some more WMDs hidden....probably because those were made and delivered by the USA! Big grin
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
Guest

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:03 am

I think this says a lot

[read more about the leak at the Independent (London) Financial Times, the Guardian (London), and the Associated Press (the only US news outlet to touch the story, albeit in an unrevealing article)]

I remember a certain secretary of defence stating in no uncertain terms that his country has not supplied the Iraqis with anything with a chemical weapon use; but that report, plus previous evidence, seem to indicate the exact opposite. And that statement was made only a couple of weeks ago when directly asked by a reporter at a news conference about the issue.

All countries currently involved in the Iraqi issue are as guilty as one another; and frankly none have the moral highground.
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sun Mar 02, 2003 2:41 am

It also should not be forgotten that the US, from 1985 to 1990, exported to Iraq biological agents and high-tech equipment with military application with a total worth of $1.5 billion, according to an investigation of Representative Samuel Gejdenson, Democrat of Connecticut. (Source: http://www.progressive.org/0901/anth0498.html and other articles at same site).

I suggest you read the whole article. It's very revealing. Guess who provided Saddam with 'Bacillus Anthracis' (yes, this is what you think it is)?
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sun Mar 02, 2003 2:51 am

Is the Pope Jewish?  Big grin
 
KLAX
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:59 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sun Mar 02, 2003 2:54 am

That was before the war, when it was ok to do so, before Saddam hit the power trip and invaded Kuwait. This is not the issue here, the issue is why did Germany, France and Switzerland continue selling to Iraq after sanctions were imposed?

-Clovis
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:06 am

Who sold what, before sanctions were put in place, is irrelevant. What's done is done. The question is, where are you today and what do you want to do about it.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:33 am

That was before the war, when it was ok to do so, before Saddam hit the power trip and invaded Kuwait.

Actually, it was DURING the war, it was not ok to do so, and Saddam had already hit the power trip.

Except the fact that the American government supplied biological agents were used against innocence civilian populations in Kurdish areas of Iraq and civilians in general in Iran.

The biological agents were openly supplied to Saddam by the American government, and it was fully known that those agents would be used in direct attacks against Iranian civilians.

But hey, they are only Iranians. Who cares about them?

It has NEVER been morally right for countries to produce biological agents with warfare uses, let alone supply them to other parties; whether they use them or not is also not relevant.

Who sold what, before sanctions were put in place, is irrelevant. What's done is done. The question is, where are you today and what do you want to do about it.

No it is NOT irrelevant Charles. You didn't know that the American government sold these agents, until I showed you some info on the subject (RE: Iraqgate). You didn't seem to condemn the actions of the American government then; and even if you did, that condemnation was nowhere near as loud as your condemnation (as it seems) against the French, Germans and Swiss now.

And it is also very relevant, when you have the ACTUAL person who was largely responsible for Iraqgate saying that the American government never supplied these agents; and that person is a member of the government which is accusing other parties of doing the same thing they have done in the past, and in this case, their actions were responsible for thousands more deaths than the Germans and French have been.

People on these forums admitting that the American government supplied these agents doesn't make a lick of difference. What is needed is the admittance from those people responsible for it. I just can't believe that they still deny that they supplied these agents, when there is much documented proof of it out there.

As to where we are today, and what to do about it. In reality what we say or do isn't going to make the slightest difference to Bush waging his war or Saddam holding out against UN Resolutions.

What you are wanting is a "Who is wrong and who is right" answer, and as I said before, there is no answer to that question. The world is more than black and white than this.

 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:59 am

Aviatsiya,

I Understand what you're saying, but it is still irrelevant. Are you familiar with the concept of sunk cost? It simply means that what happened in the past, and the decisions made in the past (frequently erroneous ones) should have absolutely no bearing on the decision you must make today.

We are here today. How we got here is for the historians to figure out. The question is, where do we go from here, based on all relevant options and information.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
User avatar
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:33 am

THAT's funny Cfalk !

Saying The French say that war should be avoided at all costs for reasons of human rights. you are far from honest.
"The French" as you say, said that the war should be the last extremity. I didn't hear anyone saying that it should be avoided "at all cost". Another piece of propaganda ?
Berk !
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sun Mar 02, 2003 7:35 am

To Cfalk:

"It simply means that what happened in the past, and the decisions made in the past (frequently erroneous ones) should have absolutely no bearing on the decision you must make today."

Then why is your thread titled 'Are the French being honest'?

Over the last weeks France has been critized very much, in the US and British media and also on a.net. About 99% of these critics give me the impression either the writer hasn't done enough research on the subject or he/she is not telling the whole story.

OK, France has done business with Saddam, yes France has oil interests in Iraq, yes Chirac has met Saddam personally. But the same can be said about a dozen other countries, among them the US. Why are their so many US users on this board blaming France for building a nuclear reactor years ago (which was bombed by the Israelis), but nobody blames their own government for providing Saddam with Anthrax and other biological agents in live form, which means they could be reproduced!!

I think you should change the title of this thread to 'Are WE ALL being honest?
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:20 pm

Nobody should be blamed for what happened before the Gulf War. Policy before then was legal, even if unwise. After the Gulf War is a Different Story. A number of countries broke sanctions, and criminal charges should await the CEOs of those companies, and should also await the governments of those countries that authorized or promoted such activity.

That list that is being circulated is misleading. For example, I knew Bechtel's Project Manager in Iraq. He's passed away now, but they were doing work on fertilizor plants and some oil work - nothing to do with chemical weapons. In 1990 they were all taken hostage by Saddam. The U.S. governement refused to send in rescue missions, so Bechtel did it themselves. They bribed a whole bunch of people, invaded Iraq in a fleet of 4x4s, bought off all the Iraqi guards, and left with all 50 or so hostages across the Turkish border. Bechtel has not had anything to do with Iraq ever since.

This is not the case for companies like Dassault, Thomson etc.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:25 am


To Cfalk:

"Nobody should be blamed for what happened before the Gulf War. Policy before then was legal..."

Yes, and no. Much of what Saddam received from the West was so-called 'dual-use technology', ultra sophisticated computers, armored ambulances, helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian uses as well as military applications. Also, the US Department of Commerce altered the export licences to Iraq of material to obscure the military functions of these materials, 'before sending the documents on to Congress, which was investigating the affair' of Iraqgate. (Source: http://www.cjr.org/year/93/2/iraqgate.asp)

Also, an article published in 'The New Yorker Magazine' in November 1992 and written by Murray Waas and Craig Unger, stated in its introduction "This article, originally published in New Yorker Magazine, provides a clear picture of the direct involvement of the United States in arming Iraq, providing Saddam Hussein with technology, weapons, intelligence and funding - even in contravention of American law - enabling Iraq to amass the nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons that threaten the world. While the US does not openly acknowledge its role in arming Iraq, it now prepares to go to war against a monster of its own creation... " (Note that the war mentioned in the last sentence refers to the 'First' Gulf War). (the whole article can be found here: http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2002/111402.htm).

On this same site, I found another interesting thing: the full text, including pictures, of an October 2002 CIA report titled "Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs": http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.htm#09 when you scroll down to the second picture, you'll see the same image Colin Powell used during his UN Security Council presentation. The text under that picture says: "Test of dissemination of BW agents from a modified drop tank carried by a Mirage F1. The drop tank was filled with 1000 liters of slurry Bacillus subtilis, a simulant for B. anthracis, and disseminated over Aby Obeydi Airbase in January 1991. The phote is from a videotape provided by Iraq to UNSCOM."

Don't you think its hypocrital to critisize France for providing Iraq with Mirage F1 aircraft knowing that the lethal loads these aircraft were supposed to carry were delivered by the US? (see reply #12).
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:32 am

Schoenorama,

SO WHAT!!!

A lot of countries supplied Saddam before the Gulf War. SO WHAT? Some of the even broke the sanctions and sold Saddam weapons while under embargo. SO WHAT! Let the lawyers deal with that. Eventually some people will go to jail (some are already there). The important thing is where we are now and where we are going.

Do you drive by only looking at your rear-view mirror?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:08 am

Honest ? The French government ain't honest, neither are the Brits, Germans, Iraqis, Russians, Chinese, Australians and whoever else wanna join in this melee. Even the Swiss govt. isn't honest... *I know my one isn't either*

The French is just putting forward a different approach... whether it is right or wrong, we'll see... whether the US view is right or wrong... we'll have to see too...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:39 am

To Cfalk:

"SO WHAT!!!

A lot of countries supplied Saddam before the Gulf War. SO WHAT? Some of the even broke the sanctions and sold Saddam weapons while under embargo. SO WHAT! Let the lawyers deal with that. Eventually some people will go to jail (some are already there). The important thing is where we are now and where we are going.
"

Then why did you start a thread called "Are The French Being Honest?"

I get the impression you only want to have a discussion about the French honesty on the whole Iraq matter, and, for whatever reason, leave out the role of the US in the whole matter. As soon as I post that the US and Germany are also to blame, you start shouting "SO WHAT".

Honestly, Cfalk, I had hoped your reply would have been a bit more constructive.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:54 am

I'm just saying that who supplied what to whom and when should be a COMPLETELY seperate issue from the analysis of the situation today and what should be done (if anything) to improve the outlook for the future.

I believe that a large part of the French reasoning for its position may well be a violation of the seperation of these two issues. It may be an effort to avoid wide exposure of large-scale violations of UN sanctions, including the sale of weapons while Iraq was under sanctions. In other words, are they sacrificing large numbers of Iraqi dead in order to keep a few people in French government and/or industry from facing a judge? In other words, are they using their past actions as a driver for decisions to be made today?

Charles

The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 5:25 am

Charles:

I don't believe the French Government is acting now to be able to avoid eventual future scandals and neither do I think are the Germans. If this were the only reason for France, they would have accused the US of having done their deals with Saddam ages ago, to discredit the US.

I believe the French understand very well what the Iraqi people are going through and over the past years they have been trying to soften the situation for the Iraqi people as much as posible, by trying, along with other countries and institutions like the Unicef, to get more real humanitarian aid to the Iraqi people, instead of the US supported using of very large amounts of money of the "Food-for-Oil" project to pay off claims of Kuwaiti private companies.

I also believe though that the French see themselves as an alternative to the actual US dominance of world issues. We both know that throughout Europe there is great resistance amongst the public, to simply follow the US in this War on Terror, as many people believe that: a) This is firstly a UN Security Council issue; b) No links between Iraq and al-Qa'ida have been proved yet; c) Attacking Iraq, either with or without UNSC backing, will destabilize the whole Middle-East region and will only create more terror than it is supposed to stop; d) In case the US does start a war on Iraq without UNSC backing it will set a very dangerous precedent. And these are just 4 examples but there are many more longterm risks.

Obviously, it is always posible the French (or German or the Americans) know something we don't know. But up until now, my idea is that the French and Germans have been honest.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 5:50 am

I believe the French understand very well what the Iraqi people are going through and over the past years they have been trying to soften the situation for the Iraqi people as much as posible, by trying, along with other countries and institutions like the Unicef, to get more real humanitarian aid to the Iraqi people, instead of the US supported using of very large amounts of money of the "Food-for-Oil" project to pay off claims of Kuwaiti private companies.

Never mind that Iraq invaded and pillored Kuwait, eh, Schonerama?

Maybe the French do understand that, but so does the U.S. and so do the American people. And what has the Iraqi people gotten in return for France "softening" things for them? Nothing. Not a thing, except Saddam taking the aid to his military, and letting his own people rot.

I also believe though that the French see themselves as an alternative to the actual US dominance of world issues.

France does not have the political, economic nor military position in the world to be a true alternative to the U.S. Even with Germany in tow (what a historical irony that is), they don't match the U.S. on any three counts. That isn't blowing the U.S. horn, nor dissing France and Germany. It's just a cold, hard fact. In the long run ,they don't have the horses to be an alternative on a worldwide scale.

We both know that throughout Europe there is great resistance amongst the public, to simply follow the US in this War on Terror, as many people believe that: a) This is firstly a UN Security Council issue..

How is an attack on American soil an issue for the Security Council? It's an issue for the United States.

.. b) No links between Iraq and al-Qa'ida have been proved yet..

Agreed, but Europe was already getting squirrly on the War on Terror before the Iraq issue came back up.

c) Attacking Iraq, either with or without UNSC backing, will destabilize the whole Middle-East region and will only create more terror than it is supposed to stop

Oh, now you're saying you don't accept it EVEN IF the Security Council authorizes force? Is that the feeling throughout Europe, that, no matter what, force is not necessary? So, either way, Europe thinks Saddam should just remain where he is, just to avoid war?

Obviously, it is always posible the French (or German or the Americans) know something we don't know. But up until now, my idea is that the French and Germans have been honest.

Oh, grow up, Schonerama! The governments don't tell you or me 1/100th of what is going on! It's more than POSSIBLE, Schonerama, it's the way it is.

And so nice of you to tell us, that despite the fact you and I know squat about what goes beyond behind closed doors, that France and Germany have halos over their heads in this matter. I find that amusing, indeed. France and Germany have bene out to do one thing-advance the interests of France and Germany-just as the U.S. is doing. That means, somewhere along the line, some little white lies are being floated by EVERYONE.

France and Germany aren't as pure as the driven snow in this affair. You're naive to believe that.
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:25 am

To Alpha1:

No I haven't forgotten, Alpha1 (Please spell my name right! Copy and paste normally does the trick).

What I meant with 'softening' was that the French, along with many other nations, proposed on many occasions that the "Food-for-Oil" program should be changed, but this was always blocked by the US. Remember Alpha1, any humanitarian aid to Iraq is subject to the approval of the UNSC.

"France does not have the political, economic nor military position in the world to be a true alternative to the U.S."

I didn't say that. All I said is that the French perhaps see themselves as an alternative to the actual US dominance of world issues, or call it an alternative opinion on things.

"How is an attack on American soil an issue for the Security Council? It's an issue for the United States.

Please, again, explain me what Iraq has to do with 9/11?

.. b) No links between Iraq and al-Qa'ida have been proved yet..

Agreed, but Europe was already getting squirrly on the War on Terror before the Iraq issue came back up.


So you agree there are no links (yet) between Iraq and those responsable for 9/11, yet you state that an attack on US soil is not an issue for the UNSC?

There is a basic difference in opinion between the US and Europe on how to fight terrorism. Europe, which believes fighting terrorism by means of an 'pre-emptive' war will only create more terrorism a part from innocent lives. I think the arrest today of a high-rank al-Qa'ida member in Pakistan is a very good example. A terrorist was aprehended without actually having to bomb a whole country.

"c) Attacking Iraq, either with or without UNSC backing, will destabilize the whole Middle-East region and will only create more terror than it is supposed to stop

Oh, now you're saying you don't accept it EVEN IF the Security Council authorizes force? Is that the feeling throughout Europe, that, no matter what, force is not necessary? So, either way, Europe thinks Saddam should just remain where he is, just to avoid war?"


Well, Saddam is disarming and, according to the man who should know, Hans Blix, there is progress being made. Also, like I stated earlier, the sanctions which have been in place have not worked, and this is something France and other knew about for many years and tried to change. Also, and not less important, Alpha1, remember this is not a game of 'you do this or I'll do that'. I hope things were just that simple, but it's not.

"Obviously, it is always posible the French (or German or the Americans) know something we don't know. But up until now, my idea is that the French and Germans have been honest.

Oh, grow up, Schonerama! The governments don't tell you or me 1/100th of what is going on! It's more than POSSIBLE, Schonerama, it's the way it is."


Please Alpha1, don't start all over again. Read what I've been disussing about with Cfalk. Of course I know we're being told very little, but that's not what this thread is about.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:41 am

So you agree there are no links (yet) between Iraq and those responsable for 9/11

What part of "agreed" do you not understand?

..yet you state that an attack on US soil is not an issue for the UNSC?

Are you saying the Security Council SHOULD have a say in how the United States responds to an attck on it's own soil? The attack of 9/11 was an attack on the U.S., not the UN, if I'm not mistaken.

There is a basic difference in opinion between the US and Europe on how to fight terrorism.

Yes, Europe wants to talk, talk, talk, talk...keep moving the line in the sand; wait 12 years and wade through 17 UN resolutions, and still talk talk talk. The U.S. has a little less patience than that. Europe is hesitant, even afraid, to back up more than a decade of threat with any kind of action. The United States is not.

Of course I know we're being told very little, but that's not what this thread is about.

Then why the hell did you say what you did?
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:18 am

"Are you saying the Security Council SHOULD have a say in how the United States responds to an attck on it's own soil? The attack of 9/11 was an attack on the U.S., not the UN, if I'm not mistaken."

If you read what you wrote yourselve, you would say you are contradicting yourselve. You agree with me there are no links (yet) between 9/11 and al-Qa'ida, but you also state that an attack on American Soil (9/11 I presume) is not an UNSC matter. Once again, where is the link between an attack on American Soil and Iraq?

"Yes, Europe wants to talk, talk, talk, talk...keep moving the line in the sand; wait 12 years and wade through 17 UN resolutions, and still talk talk talk. The U.S. has a little less patience than that. Europe is hesitant, even afraid, to back up more than a decade of threat with any kind of action. The United States is not."

Because the 12 years of resolutions did not affect Saddam, as intended, but the Iraqi people (remember that baby-food is also forbidden under the sanctions). Up until 9/11, it has always been the US that blocked ANY proposition by other UNSC members to change the sanctions. And up until 9/11, the US wasn't very eager either to solve the problem. If Iraq can't be linked (yet) with 9/11, then why this sudden urgency to go to war? Why not simply change the sanctions?

"Then why the hell did you say what you did?"

Once again, read the thread and you'll see 'why the hell' I said what I said'.


Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:26 am

Once again, where is the link between an attack on American Soil and Iraq?

Did I not say that I agree there is not link between Iraq/Al Aqaeda? What part of that, again, don't you understand? The Iraq business is an appropriate venue for Iraq.

But I pointed out that the 9/11 attack is NOT the business of the UN, which is what I believe you meant when you mentioned the War on Terror. Or did I mis understand you?

Because the 12 years of resolutions did not affect Saddam

EXACTLY!! Is that not the greatest indictment of the UN and Europe? That the 12 years of trying PEACEFUL methods have failed. And they've failed for 2 reasons: 1. Saddam doesn't listen to reason, and 2. Becuase, up until the U.S. sent their troops in, there's been no threats to back up this endless talk talk talk that the UN and Europe as been engaged in for a dozen years.

Saddam understands one thing: force. And only force will remove him. Now, in my opinion, is not the time, but the time is fast approaching.
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:59 am

"But I pointed out that the 9/11 attack is NOT the business of the UN, which is what I believe you meant when you mentioned the War on Terror. Or did I mis understand you?"

Yes, I believe you did.

"EXACTLY!! Is that not the greatest indictment of the UN and Europe? That the 12 years of trying PEACEFUL methods have failed."

Just a quick reminder, only 2 European countries are permanent members, France and the UK. Europe does, therefore, have very little influence on the UNSC. If you state that the UN during these 12 years has failed, then also the US has failed, as they were and are a permanent member.

Also, these PEACEFUL methods you mentioned, were not that peaceful in my opinion. I mean, banning baby-food to be given to the Iraqi people can't really be called a peaceful method.

During these 12 years, when it became clear the sanctions were not working, the UNSC discussed on many occasions changing the sanctions to achieve they would hit Saddam and not the Iraqi people, but it was ALWAYS the US that blocked these agreements. Why, you might ask yourselve? Look what Madeleine Albright during those 12 years said on the issue: "We do not agree that if Iraq complies with its obligations concerning weapons of mass destruction, sanctions should be lifted."

THAT was the issue then. The US didn't mind the WMD's at all then, they wanted to get rid of Saddam. That's why they ALWAYS blocked any attempt from the other UNSC members to get Saddam to comply.
(Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,232986,00.html)

Do some research yourselve, there's plenty of articles on the US and UN's position during these last 12 years.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Are The French Being Honest?

Mon Mar 03, 2003 8:22 am

Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 2707200X, Google [Bot] and 7 guests