POSITIVE RATE
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Nissan 350Z

Tue Mar 04, 2003 5:53 pm

The 350Z is finally here! What a car. It has style and awesome power to back it up. It's normally aspirated V6 engine produces a whopping 206kW of power giving it a 0-100km/h time of around 5.7 secs. This performance is truly sensational for a non-turbo. I think Nissan has really produced a winner with the 350Z, it has the heritage of 300Z with finer more modern styling. Nissan has really been producing some fine cars in the last few years- with the S15 200SX being labelled Wheels magazines 2001 car of the year. Then there is the Skyline R34 GTR which is a kickass car. The 350Z looks more European in styling, almost like a Audi or Porsche. Only thing is the $75,000AU price tag for the top of the range model  Sad Nissan, just wait till you drift it!!!!!!
 
Greg
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Tue Mar 04, 2003 11:24 pm

They will be a huge success.

Three suggestions: 1. get rid of that huge hole in the front where the intake is--it's screaming for a mesh grill or something--car looks unfinished.

2. The interior is about as cheap as it gets. Put better plastic in there!

3. If your serious about the car...check out the G35 Coupe by Infiniti. Same engine but more horses. And all the refinement that the 350 lacks. Also..it specs out pretty close to the Z car (not in price, of course...).

I had two friends that opted for the G35 Coupe--the M6 model--instead of the 350.

Nevertheless...both cars kick butt.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:15 am

Nissan has been on a roll lately, with exceptional products. They are unique, have high levels of equipment, power, etc, and are priced very well. Some of the vehicles aren't as successfully styled, such as the new Maxima, but overall, Nissan has achieved a style that is mostly individualistic. They had about $20 Billion in debt just a couple of years ago, and were going to shut down. Carlos Goshn (sp?) really turned that company around. They estimate to be debt free by 2005, they have made a strong profit, and are growing immensely. Of course, nothing is perfect, and Nissan has had to cut costs dramatically to be this strong financially. This is noticeable in the interiors. My dad had a 1992 Maxima with an interior of really high quality, and that was several notches above the current Nissan products. I just hope that cost cutting doesn't turn into reliability or durability concerns, as has happened with other companies.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Ilyushin96M
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 2:55 am

The Nissan 350Z is getting rave reviews across the board. I've heard it's the rebirth of the Z sports car, and I place some stock in what the writers of Car & Driver have to say. They are in love with the car!

I sat in the 350Z at the Milwaukee Auto Show last week, and was unimpressed with the interior - far too austere for the price range, although the exterior is exciting - an excellent design, overall. I'd like to check out the Infiniti offering to see the difference - though most of the Inifiti line are carbon copies of Nissans, they do have much nicer interiors. I'd love to drive both, but I'm afraid to, because I might do something really irresponsible...like buy one. Big grin
 
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United_fan
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:04 am

I work at a Lincoln Mercury Nissan dealer and we have been selling these as fast as we get em. I like them,they look better than the old Z's (the Z32 model)parts-speak for 1990-1996 300Z. I think they're a little too cramped for me. I'll keep my 2000 Camaro Z28.
I think we'll really sell a bunch when Spring comes to upstate NY.
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
galaxy5
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:10 am

Did you say the nissan 350z was $75,000? or was it a different car, because i found this in Car & driver
Even the top-of-the-line Track model tested here — with its front and rear spoilers (eliminating front and rear lift and cutting the drag coefficient from 0.30 to 0.29), Rays Engineering forged-aluminum 18-inch wheels (saving a total of almost 18 pounds of unsprung weight), Brembo brakes, viscous limited-slip differential, aluminum pedals, and raft of nonperformance upgrades — goes for only $34,619, $7810 more than a base Z.

"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:13 am

I have sworn on the bible I will abstain from this thread unless it comes down to a Import war. I will try my hardest no to give my opinion (or facts) in this thread.

 Laugh out loud

 
Ryefly
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:12 am

My brother bought a silver 350Z. It's an amazing car to drive, actually the best sports car I have ever driven. Excellent power, handling and braking and believe it or not good head room. The only negative I found is there is a large blind spots if you need to change lanes.
 
TWAL1011
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:14 am

Saw a pair of them at the strip last week. One driver seemed to know what he was doing and the other didn't have a clue.

One running 14.40's and the other running 15.40's.

What are these things supposed to do in the 1/4 mile?
 
desertjets
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:22 am

From Autoweek Magazine, November 11, 2002.

0-60mph 5.66 sec
0-100kph 6.26
Standing quarter mile 99.7 mph @ 14.32 sec.

These numbers were tested using a track model car.

Hell a 1/4 mile in the low to mid 14s is nothing to sniff at.

By comparison, from Autoweek November 25, 2002 the Mercury Marauder compares:

0-60 8.01sec
0-100kph 8.43sec
Standing quarter mile 91.1mph @ 15.99 sec

One more BMW 745i from Autoweek December 23, 2002

0-60mph 6.30sec
0-100kph 6.70sec
Standing quarter mile 97.0mph @ 14.76sec

So the Z is pretty quick for a street spec car starting at less than $30k.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
NKP S2
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:28 am

Depends what the mph was at the end of the 1/4 mile. Trap speed is a good measure of the relative horsepower available and what a car would be _capable_ of, ET-wise, especially under ideal traction and launch conditions. -- With two ostensiby identical cars, the trap speeds may well be the same ( or quite close ) despite different ET's....This is assuming that the "slower" car driver shifted at a decent RPM. -- My drag race nose smells about 97-98 mph if the car that ran 14.4 launched well.
 
NKP S2
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:36 am

I never can seem to time it right: My above post was directed mainly at 'TWAL1011', but magazine times will vary wildely from mag to mag...and as well from the real-world drag-strip times most production cars will actually run...and not to mean necessarily slower either. --
 
TWAL1011
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:16 pm

Well, the 14.40 seems pretty close to the mark then...

We had a D/A of @ 1,900' that day and I had a best of 14.63 @ 94.

I'd say that your guess of 97-98 mph is pretty darn close, NKP S2.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:51 pm

One thing is for sure, the 350Z is better than ANY American product in that category and price range! Ok, LOT, you're turn!!!  Big grin What American product for the same money equals the performance, refinement, quality, handling and so forth? This should be fun.  Big grin
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:59 pm

The performance is good enough as it is but imagine slapping a turbocharger on one of these babies? This car would be superquick in turbocharged form- although i don't think Nissan is planning on bringing a turbo version out. I'm sure some tuning company in Japan will no doubt turbo this car! Regarding the interior it does look a little cheapish but on the other hand i do like the gauge layout- it reminds me of the good old 280Z from the 1970's. Performance-wise though i'd still perefer an R33/R34 GTR.
Galaxy5 that $75,000 i was referring to was in Australian(AU)$$$$$$ which unfortunately is totally out of most peoples price range.
 
NWA742
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 2:38 pm

Hey Captaingomes, ever heard of the Camaro and Trans Am?

Stocks LS1s will run in the 13s with a good driver no problem, and the newer models sold for around 20-25K.

Also, stop whining about the quality of interiors. If you want a good interior, fine, buy an overpriced BMW or something of that sort. Look at it this way, you can get a decent Ford Expedition or Chevrolet Tahoe in the high 20s or low 30s if you make a deal. The BMW SUV that sells for 50-75K is twice as much, but why?

Just for a BMW emblem and leather seats and a navigation system, with quality plastic on the inside, should cost you an extra 25K?

That's complete BS.

Back to the original topic, if you want speed, muscle, handling, and descent quality, looks towards the American sports cars.






-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:59 pm

Actually, the really hot Nissan model coming is the upcoming replacement for the Skyline GT-R.

The car will be based on the Infiniti G35 coupe, but will sport something like 375 to 400 bhp from a turbocharged version of the current V-6 engine. It will of course have much more radical styling, and unlike previous Skyline GT-R's there will be versions sold for the US market.

All-wheel drive plus 400 bhp equals serious BMW M3 and Audi RS4 competitor.  Big thumbs up
 
buckfifty
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:01 pm

No offense to my American friends here, but I've lived in Canada for 19 years, and have driven all kinds of cars. The only American car that I've driven with decent (actually quite fun) handling is the Z06.

I've also driven Firebirds (including a Formula a friend of a friend lent me), and Mustangs galore (except for the last Cobra version). All I can say is that they feel heavy, they drive heavy, and they handle like a pig. However, I have seen a modified Camaro that looks quite the part on an autocross, though I never got to drive it.

Some people like to live their life a quarter mile at a time (sorry Vin), but I'd rather drive something where I can chuck it around with reckless abandon, and still feel confident driving it.

But that's just my opinion...
 
DC10Tony
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:35 pm

The Nissan 350Z is a great sports car, I'm glad to see a revival of Nissan's popular nameplate. Good thing they didn't call it the FairLady again. Smile

I do however think that it's a little pricey for what it offers. If Nissan priced these cars a little less, they would be a bigger hit. It seems like Nissan went for exclusivity with the 350Z and priced it higher to justify that.



To all you who think America builds junk when it comes to sports cars, you're VERY wrong. It it wasn't for America's muscle car era, all your foreign companies would still be making boring economy cars, and the NSX, Supra, MR2, Celica, etc. would have probably never been made.

I wholeheartedly agree with what NWA472 said. I drive a V8 F-Body and it's a GREAT car for the money. Let's see another car company make a 300+HP V8 that gets 22 MPG and runs low 13s.


 
buckfifty
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 12:19 am

Actually, it wasn't because of the American muscle car era that the afforementioned cars were made. In fact, that's truly a broad generalization that cannot really be substantiated.

If you look back at history, the musclecar era only spawned cars with V8's strapped into saloon bodies, which everyone could afford. If you wanted to see true sports cars, you would have to look at Europe, and the influences that the Jaguar E-Type and Porsche Speedster have made. In fact, along with the Lotus Elan and other small sports cars, you can clearly see where the influence has been among Japanese cars, and where their direction has been taken from.

The MR2, for example, was essentially an idea taken from TVR's TR7 and the Fiat X1/9. From the MR2, however, came the Fiero. Strange, isn't it.

I don't deny the contribution that American musclecars have made in automobile history. In fact, affordable mass production of cars with exotic power levels is something that was an American ideal. Still is today, though much less so. However, a true sports car is more than just power, though that is my opinion.
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 12:52 am

"One thing is for sure, the 350Z is better than ANY American product in that category and price range! Ok, LOT, you're turn!!! What American product for the same money equals the performance, refinement, quality, handling and so forth? This should be fun. "

Oh no not in this post...im not doing another rice-boy bash...se my post above.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 12:58 am

NWA742, I only made that comment to get lots of pictures of Mustangs and Camaros in this thread!  Smile And yes, I really have heard of the Camaro, eventhough GM has cancelled them.

Don't get me wrong, the Camaros, Trans-Ams, and Mustangs provide great bang for the buck. But it ends right there. People who are looking for a package with a lot more come back disappointed in those cars. They are thrill rides, and nothing more.

By the way, it's unfair to compare a premium product like a BMW to a GM product costing much less. As is the case with any premium product, you never get the same value as you do with a more accessibly priced product. If you really want to look at it fairly, then you must compare American premium products to imported premium products. The only areas where the Americans usually win is in towing capacity (not everybody needs that much towing capacity) and overall size (not everybody needs or wants to drive a behemoth). Is a Yukon Denali or an Escalade worth the same amount of money as a BMW X5? Depends on who you ask and their needs. But their prices are not as far apart as you make it out to be.

That brings me to the 350Z. Some here think it's overpriced, but really it's a pretty decent value for what you're getting, cheapish interior notwithstanding. It's in the same price range as the Honda S2000 and Audi TT, as two examples. The Nissan definitely provides more performance than those two.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
desertjets
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:50 am

You can still get into a 350Z for a little more than $25,000US. Not pretty bad for a pretty well sorted out sports car. $35K gets you into the fully loaded Track model. I would hardly call that expensive. Probably more practical and driveable everyday than a Honda S2000. You don't have to rev it above 5,000 rpm to get any power. And it has more sports car credo than an Audi TT has anyday... the TT is nothing more than a GT car plain and simple.

As for real competition by an American mark... I would say the current SVT Cobra, which actually handles fairly well despite being based on a platform older than most of the posters (including myself) in this post. Or a Corvette. Which would set you back another $5-$10k or more.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Marcus
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:30 am

Now that you mention the Audi TT.........VW based the new Beetle on the design of the old VW Bug.........and the TT looks like a modern version of the Karmann Guia.
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
captaingomes
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:47 am

I think the TT is a VW Bug catering more to men, as the Bug is really a feminine car. I can't wait for the VR6 TT to show up with its new revolutionary transmission. Still wont quite match the 350Z for performance, but will come close while having a better interior, AWD, and different character.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Toner
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:46 am

One of our sons is on a waiting list for this beauty.
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 4:17 am

This is a cool car, but as NWA742 said, You can get a much better American car, much more powerfull to. I am very biased to American Muscle.
Go big or go home
 
flight152
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 5:42 am

Back to the original topic, if you want speed, muscle, handling, and descent quality, looks towards the American sports cars.

Thats why Chevy canceled the Camaro? Opps.. Did I say that out loud?

Just for a BMW emblem and leather seats and a navigation system, with quality plastic on the inside, should cost you an extra 25K?

Yes.

Not to mention the fact that it's (X5) one of the highest rated SUV's. ( ie Consumer Reports)

Although you fail to see these other items standard on the base X5 3.0i
Hill Descent Control (HDC)
Dynamic Stability Control
Dynamic Brake Control
Adjustable Ride Height
Permentant All-wheel drive with all Season Traction
Front Seat Head Protection System with front side impact airbags

The X5 4.6IS comes with:
340 Horsepower 4.6 liter V8
Nappa Leather Interior
Sport Suspention
20 inch alloy wheels and high performance tires



It's not "just the logo"


The BMW SUV that sells for 50-75K is twice as much, but why?

uh huh
The base price of the X5 3.0i is $39,500

 
aa61hvy
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:28 am

Flight 152: The Camaro was canceled because the Mustang was killing the Camaro in sales. Look for more Camaro's and Firebirds and TA to come out in 4 years.
TWAL1011: Can I get a "MUSTANG POWER"?
Go big or go home
 
TWAL1011
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:35 am

The Mustang outsold the Camaro and Firebird by a significant margin. The GM's had more showroom power, but they take a serious ass-whoopin' on the street....daily.

I'm participating in a Mustang vs. F-body race this weekend. It will most certainly turn out overwhelmingly in Ford's favor.
 
desertjets
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:44 am

Honestly, it isn't fair to compare a Mustang or a Camaro to a 350Z. We are talking about apples to oranges here. A stock 'Stang or Camaro couldn't make a decent claim to being a decent weekend autocross car, but for only a few bucks makes a fun go fast ride and you can take it to the strip on Fridays and Saturdays and have a little fun.

Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:46 am

A little money does make a Mustang go fast  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Go big or go home
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 12:55 pm

"Back to the original topic, if you want speed, muscle, handling, and descent quality, looks towards the American sports cars.

Thats why Chevy canceled the Camaro? Opps.. Did I say that out loud?"

Uhhhhhh guys, we have the GTO and the new Impala SS coming out. They will replace the F-Bird and the Camaro..for now.

"I'm participating in a Mustang vs. F-body race this weekend. It will most certainly turn out overwhelmingly in Ford's favor."

If someone there has a 2000 Mustang SVT Cobra R your ass is going nowhere....that car is seriously dangerously powerfull and fast. And going for $50k christ...LOL I want one Big grin
 
Ilyushin96M
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 12:59 pm

Hate to break it to ya, LOT, but the new GTO is about as close to being an American car as those so-called "rice burners" you love to bash.  Smile The car is the Australian-built Holden Commodore. I don't have pictures of it, but it looks great. It's going to knock everyone's socks off. Of course, GM HAS to go out of the country for a car like this, because it seems their engineers can't come up with one on their own... Sad, in my opinion.
 
TWAL1011
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:00 pm

 
flight152
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:12 pm

that car is seriously dangerously powerfull and fast. And going for $50k christ...


Anyone that pays 50 grand IMO, for a Ford needs their head examined.
 
NWA742
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:17 pm

Thats why Chevy canceled the Camaro? Opps.. Did I say that out loud?

Chevy simply cancelled the Camaro because sales were falling. That doesn't mean it's a bad car. The Camaro program was very long, and not everything lasts forever. Besides, GM's already talking about bringing the Camaro back, not to mention the new GTO and Impala SS, so don't get your hopes up for too long......... Insane

Yes.

Not to mention the fact that it's (X5) one of the highest rated SUV's. ( ie Consumer Reports)


Oh wow, Consumer Reports, big deal. Sometimes I think their ratings depend on which car company pays them the most to review their products. I've owned some fantastic vehicles in my life, and on some of those, Consumer said they were cheap and unreliable. That shows me how much to trust them.

Yes.

Not to mention the fact that it's (X5) one of the highest rated SUV's. ( ie Consumer Reports)

Although you fail to see these other items standard on the base X5 3.0i
Hill Descent Control (HDC)
Dynamic Stability Control
Dynamic Brake Control
Adjustable Ride Height
Permentant All-wheel drive with all Season Traction
Front Seat Head Protection System with front side impact airbags

The X5 4.6IS comes with:
340 Horsepower 4.6 liter V8
Nappa Leather Interior
Sport Suspention
20 inch alloy wheels and high performance tires


uh huh
The base price of the X5 3.0i is $39,500


Those figures are correct, but you have them messed up.

Ok first off, let's look at the 2 X5s you mentioned:

The BMW X5 3.0i:

$39,500
Has these features:

3.0L V6 with 225HP

Hill Descent Control (HDC)
Dynamic Stability Control
Dynamic Brake Control
Adjustable Ride Height
Permentant All-wheel drive with all Season Traction
Front Seat Head Protection System with front side impact airbags

(Uhhhhhhhh, you could get a V8 Tahoe with a lot of features for less than that, and the Tahoe is actually an SUV capable of off-roading, it's not a SUV body sitting on a minivan chassis)

The BMW X5 4.6:

$66,800
Has these features:

Hill Descent Control (HDC)
Dynamic Stability Control
Dynamic Brake Control
Adjustable Ride Height
Permentant All-wheel drive with all Season Traction
Front Seat Head Protection System with front side impact airbags

AND different from the 3.0:

340 Horsepower 4.6 liter V8
Nappa Leather Interior
Sport Suspention
20 inch alloy wheels and high performance tires

-----------------------------------------------------------

That proves that the prices are ridiculous.

So what your telling me is that an optional V8, a Leather interior, sport suspension, and wheels should cost you an extra $27,300? That's the price of another SUV for god's sakes. That not only proves that the prices of BMW products are ridiculous, but the price differences between the families of products are also ridiculous.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
desertjets
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:42 pm

LOT, hate to break it to you, but the new Impala SS is nothing but a trimmed out version of the current car with the supercharged 3.8L. Which incidentially now makes the same amount of power as the 5.7L LT1 in your Impala... 260 right?

Ultimately from what I understand, the F-Body was a victim of the SUV craze. Not enough sales to justify it, and production capacity was better utilized for high profit SUVs.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
captaingomes
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RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:57 pm

BMW minivan chassis? I don't recall a BMW Minivan, please let me know about that one please.

Also, the 4.6iS is a limited production vehicle, it's marketed to be exclusive. It is a rip off, much more expensive than a 4.4, and offering little more. However, same could be said for many American products, such as Escalades, H2's (much more expensive Yukon's with different badging, bodies, and little else, but charging immense premiums on outdated platforms).

BMW's are more expensive than Chevy's. But consider a few facts first. BMW's are upscale vehicles, and have much more engineering into them. They are much stronger bodies, have much more precision designed into them, and are much better driving machines. That may not be worth it to many people, but others are willing to pay more to get a better product. The world would be pretty boring if BMW made vehicles to the same standards as Chevy's.

Secondly, BMW's are imported cars, and as such have much higher costs to incur compared to American products. That alone makes it much more difficult for BMW and other imports to make a decent profit on their vehicles. Same holds true for American products overseas, where they sell very poorly, with very few exceptions.

Thirdly, the American companies are losing market share to the imports, especially the Japanese. Japanese vehicles are usually comparably priced to American products and are made to higher standards. Personal biases notwithstanding, Japanese vehicles perform better in objective measures, not subjective. GIven that, I prefer German cars, eventhough deep down I know Japanese cars are generally more reliable. It's interesting how the American companies are losing market share, and that with incredible incentives! From what I read yesterday, the huge incentives are possibly going to disappear, because it's hurting them more than they wanted, and they now concede that they must cut production. Seems like the imports aren't running into these problems!

Finally, Consumer Reports does NOT take money from manufacturers, so before you say that BMW gives them more money than other companies, make sure you know what you're talking about. In fact you'll be pleased to know that Consumer Reports does not recommend all BMW's, I believe only the 5 series was recommended by them in the last issue. They actually don't rate the X5 well for reliability.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
corocks
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Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:57 am

RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:23 pm

My point of view......

The 350Z is a very nice looking car. If I was in the market for that kind of car, I would by it.

Now, I am very "buy American" but, as far as the Camaro, T/A, and Mustangs....I think the best years of these cars were in the 60's. No offense to the younger members here, but I think of these cars now as high-school kid cars, everyone has them. I would expect if you looked at the demographics, the highest percentage of drivers are probably under 25.

I am very dissapointed in the GTO. The performance is great, but it looks like a Grand-Am. I think they could have made it look more retro like the T-Bird or the next gen Mustang.

There are very few new American cars that I would buy. Probably just the Corvette or a Truck. American co's make the best trucks hands-down. If I needed a large SUV, I would go with the Tahoe, navigator, or Escalade. I think the Imports win in the small SUV class - MDX, X5, etc.

For those people so quickly pointing out the Camaro was discontinued, don't forget there is a reason the 350Z is new this year....It was discontinued, along with the RX-7 and Supra. The Camaro will come back as well.

In the Sedan class - the imports rule - I have a 2002 Acura TL Type-S and it rocks. No American cars that I would take in this area.

I also have a '67 RS Camaro Convertible - No imports I would take in that year over this car.

 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:27 pm

BMW minivan chassis? I don't recall a BMW Minivan, please let me know about that one please.

You actually think BMW designed an off-road suspension?  Laugh out loud

However, same could be said for many American products, such as Escalades, H2's (much more expensive Yukon's with different badging, bodies, and little else, but charging immense premiums on outdated platforms).

I agree, I'm not defending them in any way.

BMW's are more expensive than Chevy's. But consider a few facts first. BMW's are upscale vehicles, and have much more engineering into them.

That's complete BS. If you're trying to state that as a fact instead of an opinion, which it seems you are, how would you know this? Do you have high management positions both in Chevy and BMW?  Insane

They are much stronger bodies, have much more precision designed into them, and are much better driving machines.

They don't have stronger bodies, in fact, the Trailblazer has a newly made body which is said to be stronger than any other SUV.

About the better driving machine, that's only your opinion and nothing else.

Secondly, BMW's are imported cars, and as such have much higher costs to incur compared to American products. That alone makes it much more difficult for BMW and other imports to make a decent profit on their vehicles. Same holds true for American products overseas, where they sell very poorly, with very few exceptions.

Than why can Honda/Acura sell their cars for so much cheaper? My father bought a new, extremely nice Acura 3.2TL loaded for under 30K. That car is is just as nice as ANY BMW, and it costs a lot less, AND IT'S AN IMPORT.

Thirdly, the American companies are losing market share to the imports, especially the Japanese.

Maybe in the car category, but with trucks and SUVs, you're dead wrong.

Japanese vehicles are usually comparably priced to American products and are made to higher standards.

Yes they are priced evenly, but the rest is your opinion.......... Insane

Japanese vehicles perform better in objective measures, not subjective.

How is that?

Finally, Consumer Reports does NOT take money from manufacturers, so before you say that BMW gives them more money than other companies, make sure you know what you're talking about. In fact you'll be pleased to know that Consumer Reports does not recommend all BMW's, I believe only the 5 series was recommended by them in the last issue. They actually don't rate the X5 well for reliability.

The money thing was not really my point. The point was that I don't trust them because they've given crappy reviews to great vehicles that I've owned.

Next time try backing up your posts before you go spouting off a bunch of nonsense on how imports are better than American cars. To say that they are built better, drive better, etc, is only a matter of your opinion, unless you work in the top areas of several different manufacturors, and have specific facts about the building processes and so on........ Insane




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Guest

RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:05 pm

GTO is an Australian developed and engineered car.

mb
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:29 pm

NWA742, please. If you really look at American products in general, and there are exceptions, they are losing market share because of generally outdated products. That is a fact, you do the research and it will show the worsening positions these companies are in right now. Bob Lutz has said that publicly many times about GM's products, basically saying they are crap and they need a major overhaul. He also attributes GM's losing market share on the poor products.

BMW didn't design the X5 with an "off-road" suspension. BMW's aren't off-road vehicles. It set out to design a package that would be the best it could for on-road use, without the disadvantages inherent in vehicles that are designed to excel off-road. Guess what? They succeeded! Find me ANY American vehicle with the on-road dynamics to match the X5? The fact that it sucks off-road is irrelevant to its owners. Now, that doesn't make it a minivan, but more like a raised sports car.

Regarding the engineering that goes into a BMW, yes, it's true. I don't have stated facts to support this, but they are clearly designed to different standards than the American offerings. Open the doors, check out the brakes, look at the advanced suspension design and its capabilities, check out the crash performance, see the fit and finish, and the materials used in the interiors, also look at the engines that are more advanced, with only the Northstar being a comparable American engine. These are facts and not opinions. Besides, anybody except a die-hard GM fan will acknowledge this. Why you're blind to this is beyond me.

Where do you get the "fact" that the Trailblazer has the strongest body of any SUV? I'd like to see that "fact." I know an idiot who had an Envoy (same as the Trailblazer) and he got the damned thing written off after a slow speed crash where he slid off the road and hit a rock. He was accelerating out of a gas station, lost control and slid off the road. He claims he hit at well under 20 km/h. The airbags didn't deploy, which proves this was a slow hit. The vehicle was written off (2 months old) because the frame was bent beyond repair. Doesn't bode too well for the stiffest SUV out there. Also, being the stiffest, it should do exceptionally well in crash tests, when it got 3 stars for frontal impact, and Marginal rating (right behind poor) from the IIHS. Those are facts, not opinions.

I agree that Acuras are cheaper than BMW's. It helps that Acuras are based on Honda platforms, and are often more pedestrian designs (nothing wrong with that, Acuras are also more practical than BMW's) so they are cheaper to manufacture. Why can't you accept the fact that BMW puts more money into their products and therefore charges more? I'm the first to admit that BMW's are not high value cars. They are specialty cars designed for those who truly appreciate the best a great driving experience.

I drive a VW, and Consumers Reports also does not always rate VW's highly in reliability. Guess what, my VW has been exceptionally reliable. However, if they report a car is crappy, it means that you are more likely to have problems with that car than a good car. Why can't you accept that?

Look ... GM vehicles make sense for lots of people. But they are designed down to a very low standard. That is how they keep their costs down. It is how they can be priced lower than a lot of the competition, and still offer rebates and 0% financing, and still make some money. But please do not tell me that the majority of GM products are made to the same standards as most imports, including BMW's and the such. Camaros give more bang for the buck than the 350Z (keeping this relevant to the thread), but the 350Z will otherwise outshine the Camaros in every other area.

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
corocks
Posts: 1123
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:57 am

RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:34 pm

"Of course, GM HAS to go out of the country for a car like this, because it seems their engineers can't come up with one on their own... Sad, in my opinion."

They really did not go out of the country, as Holden has been owned by GM since 1931.
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:44 pm

The Holden was still engineered in Australia and has nothing to do with GM of America. Same with Opel products in Europe. Opel market share dropped a lot in Europe, second worst behind Fiat, also partly owned by GM.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
corocks
Posts: 1123
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:57 am

RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:55 pm

True, the car is engineered in Australia, but it is still a GM product. This is no different than if Coca-Cola in Australia created a new drink. They could still bring it to the US and it would still be a Coca-Cola product.

My point is, the engineers in Australia are still "GM" engineers. I am just commenting on the "It's sad" comment. I don't want anyone to think I am knocking Australian engineering.

As in many other countries, I would expect that other cars in Australia are off-shoots of some of the cars that are "originally" engineered in the US.
 
DC10Tony
Posts: 991
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 9:51 am

RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:05 pm

"The GM's had more showroom power, but they take a serious ass-whoopin' on the street....daily"

LOL, yeah right dude, I want some of what you're smoking, it must be good. My car will embarrass any stock Mustang except the '03 Cobra. V8 F-Bodies put over 300HP to the rear wheels from the factory. My friend has a stock '94 Mustang GT and he dynoed a whopping 184 RWHP, and his car has Ford's all-mighty 5.0L too, not the 4.6L. Ford hasn't dropped a good naturally aspirated engine in their Mustangs since the early 70s, and that's why they had to resort to supercharging their '03 Cobra.

"I'm participating in a Mustang vs. F-body race this weekend. It will most certainly turn out overwhelmingly in Ford's favor."

I highly doubt that. GM has always put larger and more powerful engines in their muscle cars. There may be a few victorious Fords, but GM will more than likely take that event.



I'm curious, what kind of muscle car do you drive, because you seem to be act like you know what you're talking about.
 
aa61hvy
Posts: 13021
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 9:21 am

RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:12 pm

Your friends 5.0 is OLD the last 5.0 they made was 96, so there will be HP lost, thats why it was rated so low, the new GT's have plenty of HP.

By the way, TWAL1011 and I both drive Mustangs
Go big or go home
 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: Nissan 350Z

Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:13 pm

Nowadays, you're going to see more global platforms, whether you like it or not. Detroit is increasingly relying on foreign content in their cars to stay competitive, and rarely is the reverse true. However, most new Ford and GM chassis platforms have been shared worldwide with their bretheren to save costs, and it may pay dividends down the road.

a) Everyone's talked about the new GTO. But unlike what someone said above, it is not a Commodore, but rather a Monaro (well okay, they both share the same chassis components). The saving grace is that the engine it uses is essentially the LT1, which is what I consider to be a great piece of American engineering.

b) Chrysler Crossfire. It's essentially a rebodied last generation Merc SLK. The styling is pure Chrysler, but the chassis is pure German. The press has been giving it rave reviews...and in fact, most Chrysler products from now on will have parts sourced from the Mercedes bin.

c) Ford Focus. It is mainly a brainchild developed in Ford's European headquarters in Cologne. Of course, Detroit had a major hand in it's creation, though it seems that most of Ford's 'global cars' have originated in Europe. Although the Mondeo/Contour was a flop in North America, you're more likely to see more European sourced designs in the States in the future, as Mr. Ford tries to save his ailing company. The Focus showed that this will work.

d) On the other hand, new Jaguars have been sharing their platforms with Lincoln for some time. This tie-up with Ford will definitely extend towards the Volvo lineup, though each manufacturer is wanting to keep the individuality of their products, for obvious reasons. Yet the cost savings have allowed Jaguar and Volvo to diversify their lineup to increase their overall market share. Same with Saab, who have been using GM's new Epsilon platform for their new 9-3. This platform was engineered between Detroit and their cousins across the Atlantic, and only time will tell whether this strategy has been a success.

e) And for the finale, much of the Jeep Cherokee's advanced 4WD system (or its bread and butter, so to say) was developed in (gasp) Austria, by a company owned by (gasp) Canadians.

There are many other examples that I've failed to speak of, but this is basically what it has come down to. Not that it's a bad thing, mind you...
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Nissan 350Z

Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:27 am

Buckfifty, you are absolutely right about the platform sharing. Large companies are using this strategy to cut costs, and it seems to be working. Volkswagen has been doing this for a while with their lineup of cars, with many cars on one platform. This way, they have designed strong platforms that can be made stronger, but the unit costs are cheaper because of less engineering and development needed. The Passat for example uses the same platform as the Audi A4 and A6.

The new Chevy Malibu uses the Epsilon platform, which serves the basis for the European Opel Vectra, as well as the Saab 93. This new platform is supposedly very rigid and is a good step forward for GM in order to make more appealing cars.

It's interesting to note that the next Ford Taurus was supposed to use the same platform as the Volvo S60. This was in the press for quite some time, but recently I read that they have backed off on that idea, because it was simply too expensive for the Taurus. It would have been great to see some of Volvo's unique safety features such as WHIPS extend down to the mid-sized family sedan category.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster

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