todaReisinger
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"Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:03 am

That's how Pres. Bush opened his speech at the Azores summit.....



http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.main/index.html
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
777236ER
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:06 am

Nice to see that democracy is only acceptable when it favours US wishes.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
CPH-R
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:11 am

Is it just me, or was it the same old phrases that was used again? Iraq has WMD, Iraq is not disarming, a war will liberate the Iraqi people.
 
Guest

RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:15 am

Here is a transcript of Bush's speech below....

 
Stratofish
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:00 am

The "emergency Azores summit". The emergency: 3 guys whining "f*** the world won´t give us our war, we want our war, emergency, ...our war!!!" (and a good job in the oil industry-in the case of Mr. Aznar)

The truth is this is a decleration of war against the UN. And it´s not acceptable! But all great empires have fallen, Mr. Julius C. Bush.

Stratofish
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
TWAL1011
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:19 am

The truth is this is a decleration of war against the UN.

Hardly. It's a request for the U.N. to show that their resolutions have meaning, and consequences if not followed. It's that simple.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:27 am

Agree with TWAL1011. If you really believe it's a declaration of war on the UN, then you have to conclude that the UN is taking the side of Iraq, which it hardly has, despite it constantly moving the line in the sand when it comes to that woebegone nation.

The U.S. is simply sticking to it's postion, as is France, Russia, China, and others. Are those nations declaring war on the U.S. by opposing it's position in the UN? Hardly, and conversely, the same is true for the US.
 
N79969
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:40 am

Now it's a done deal...I am filled with a sense of dread.
 
CPH-R
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:44 am

Then at the same time, the UN could reinforce the demand that Israel allows the Palestinian refugees to return or that they be given a compensation as per resolution 194 and a whole lot more.

But then again, why would the US want that to be reinforced?
 
N79969
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:46 am

There is no real question of legality of this war. Any of the past 16 resolutions call for serious consequences for failure to comply. There is nothing illegal about it.

The real important issue is that we are about to enter the era of preemptive war. That is the unnerving part to me.

 
Sonic
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:47 am

Well, even if UN would now approve war against it's wishes (which is actually very hardly possible, since I doubt France or Russia would drop their opinions "to save UN"), it would still be meaningless. The decition not to sue American soldiers in international war crime court already showed that.

In my opinion now it is best for Lithuania to leave UN and all the resolutions it accepted. Because nobody actually wants to be in organization, which isn't working and furthermore, which resolutions only applies to certain countries and situations. Certain countries can't expect any support because support because "the leader" dislikes the support. This is especially true about smaller countries.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:51 am

Cheney saying it's "a possibiity" that Iraq will launch it's own pre-emptive strikes may just be wishful thinking, although I personally would welcome Iraq being that stupid. If Iraq were to launch an attack, the world would, reluctantly, I believe, support a US-led invasion of Iraq at that point, seeing thta there's no other choice. But I think the chances of that happening are slim and none, and slim just left town.

Despite the weather that will start tomake an invasion difficult, Bush should put France on the spot and immediately agree to their 30-day timetable for Iraq to fully comply with inspections. Although I believe France is doing this in the hopes that by mid-April, an invasion will not be very feesable with hotter weather arriving, I would accept it immediately if I were Bush. It's definitely a way to form more of a consensus on the issue. Then, in 30 days if France again moves the line in the sand, then you go without the UN.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:54 am

Resolution 1441 DOES NOT automatically authorize the use of war. A new resolution is needed for that. If a war is launched on Iraq by Spain, UK and the US without a specific resolution which authorizes the use of force, Spain, the UK and the US will be in breach of the UNSC and international law and, IMO, could be considered as "rogue states".

It is 'funny' that the text of the Azores summit says "Saddam's defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions demanding the disarmament of his nuclear, chemical, biological, and long-range missile capacity has led to sanctions on Iraq and has undermined the authority of the UN, when these 3 countries are also defying the UNSC and undermining seriously the authority of the UN.

Another interesting passage of the summit text is:"We will fight terrorism in all its forms. Iraq must never again be a haven for terrorists of any kind." I thought Iraq's supposed links with terrorism was cleared ages ago?

I'm affraid tomorrow the world will change, even more than it did on 9/11!






Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
N79969
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:56 am

I agree with you Alpha 1. I think that we need more diplomatic cover than we have. I wish that Bush had accepted the Chilean proposal.
 
keesje
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:04 am

If there is no second resolution Belgium will not support any action.

they will close their airspace for US military.


"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
TWAL1011
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:05 am

Anyone here think that Saddam posses any nuclear devices? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I believe he does indeed. It's nothing more than a hunch, and does not influence my opinion towards need for force in Iraq. I'm just putting it on the record.
 
Cyril B
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:06 am

Chirac's proposal (a 30 to 60 days deadline, if agreed by the UN inspectors) marks France's efforts to find a solution.
Chirac went it alone (Schroeder and Putin refused to back his proposal), but Powell undermined it saying it was "no real effort". It just shows that the US rejects diplomacy, they want war immediately.
 
cfalk
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:08 am

Resolution 1441 DOES NOT automatically authorize the use of war. A new resolution is needed for that.

But Resolution 687 does. It made the 1991 cease-fire conditional on Iraq's unconditional and complete disarmement, to be confirmed by inspections. 12 years later, Inspectors still cannot say that Iraq has disarmed, so the Gulf War never truely ended, in a legal sense.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
cfalk
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:17 am

Chirac's proposal (a 30 to 60 days deadline, if agreed by the UN inspectors) marks France's efforts to find a solution.

But they know that military action is virtually impossible in 30 or 60 days. They are simply hoping to delay the US until weather conditions will no longer allow action to be taken, even if Saddam withdraws all cooperation.

France wants the US to be faced with the situation of keeping a large force in the Kuwaiti desert for 8 months, unable to exercise effectively, and hampering Kuwait's own economic activities. Faced with this situation, the US will probably have to withdraw the forces back to the U.S..

If the forces go home, Americans will be unlikely to permit a second try next year, especially in an election year.

In such a situation, Saddam stays in power, which is what France is clearly working for.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
TWAL1011
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:18 am

Chirac's proposal (a 30 to 60 days deadline, if agreed by the UN inspectors) marks France's efforts to find a solution.

Chirac's proposal would delay the use of force to a time where it's difficulty would rise on the order of a magnatude. You know it, I know, everyone knows it. A delay of 30 to 60 days means a delay of a year.
 
TWAL1011
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:19 am

Cfalk must have been posting at the same time I was typing, LOL.
 
Stratofish
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:20 am

Seems like the UN resolutions leave room to interpret what is compliance.

AFAIK Hans Blix has issued a proposed timeplan for a as fast as possible disarment of Iraq. At least this amount of time should be given before starting military action.
At the moment diplomacy itself, which has helped to save millions of lives in the past centuries, has been hijacked by Bush, Blair and Aznar.
The case is clear: a later start of the war would mean fighting in higher temperatures and they at least wanna try a quick invasion as they have promised to the American public.
Btw, the destruction of illegal weapons in Iraq continues as we speak, but "we see no compliance on the Iraqi side" (Powell).
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
TWAL1011
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 am

Btw, the destruction of illegal weapons in Iraq continues as we speak

Saddam said today that he has no illegal weapons. Go figure.
 
TWAL1011
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:27 am

The thing that really bugs me about this whole Iraq thing is that I know that there are people out there who are hoping that things go poorly for the coalition forces in the event of a war. Sadly, these desires are driven by nothing more than a simple hatred of Bush. Sort of a "As long as it makes Bush look bad, it's okay by me" attitude.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:46 am

It just shows that the US rejects diplomacy, they want war immediately.

Cyril, had the U.S. wanted war "immediately", it would have launched an attack already. The fact is that we-meaning the world community-has been dancing this dance about Iraq for 12 YEARS AND 17 RESOLUTIONS! How the hell can you say ANYONE has rejected diplomacy, when the diplomacy has been going on for 12 years? That's just crazy!

Again, I would accept France's proposal IMMEDIATELY. Then in 30 days, if France waffles yet again, then there's no doubt what their intention is-to forstall an invasion at all cost, to keep THEIR economic interests paramount, even if it means leaving the Nut of Baghdad in power.
 
Guest

RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:59 am

17 resolutions huh? that means he has only 49 more to go before he has breached as many as some other country we know....

If Bush wanted diplomacy he'd be engaged in it .. clearly he is only seeking support from those who could pose a threat economically to America. It is noted that he will do anything in his power to get it including threatening the economic well being of his little friends.




ADG
 
airplanetire
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:00 am

A hundred bucks says that we (the US) are at war by Wednesday, March 19. Let me say why I think this is true. On Monday, unless something changes, the UN is voting on whether or not to authorize war with Iraq. With Russia and maybe France and China threatening to use their vetoes, I do not think that it will go through (Thank goodness in my opinion!). Now see 777236ER's comment ("Nice to see that democracy is only acceptable when it favours US wishes."). Bush won't like that, so the next day (Tuesday) or definately by Wednesday, the invasion will have begun. I think by the time I wake up on Wednesday or most certainly by the time I get home from school, the war will have begun.
 
Stratofish
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:01 am

"As long as it makes Bush look bad, it's okay by me"
I do hope things go steep downhill for Bush. But I do not hope for any bloodshed on either side. May the Iraqi children and ppl and the members of the coalition forces stay safe. Unfortunately this will probably remain wishful thinking... but wanted to set that straight, just for the record.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
DC10GUY
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:09 am

Guys, I got a sick feeling in my stomach that the wars going to start Monday. I guess its like that guy said once," If your going to get raped and you can't do anything about it, you might as well sit back and enjoy it" I'll be watching CNN for all the live video our government allows us to see... Its going to be nasty I'm sure....
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
TWAL1011
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:13 am

I do hope things go steep downhill for Bush.

What kind of things? Economic downturn? More terrorist attacks? What?
 
CX747
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:19 am

Accepting France's 30 day proposal would lead to a year long postponment of the war due to weather. Therefore it is not acceptable. The U.N. has passed countless resolutions and Iraq has not complied with them. Saddam has been given 12 years to comply yet continues to fall short of meeting any agreement. Diplomacy is at its end.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
TWAL1011
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:25 am

Guys, I got a sick feeling in my stomach that the wars going to start Monday.

Guys, I've got a sick feeling it's going to start soon, too. Despite what you think, no one (yes, even "cowboy" Bush) wants this to turn to war. There is only one person who has any real ability to stop it, and that is Saddam.

If your going to get raped and you can't do anything about it, you might as well sit back and enjoy it

There's another saying..."It's time to sh*t or get off the pot". I can only hope that Saddam will now quit monkeying around and accept that it's time to come clean.
 
N312RC
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:27 am

Bush has been ringing the damn war bell for weeks now. I think he's trying to scare Saddam into exile or something. If a war actually starts I dont think it'll be for a while, but who knows I may be wrong.

I personally think that Bush has sealed his fate when it comes to re-election. He might as well not even run. I wouldnt vote for him again, and I was whole-heartedly behind him when he came into office, and even through 9/11. Now, however, I've kinda "lost him". I dont understand alot of the stuff he does. Why Iraq? Yes, we know that Saddam is a butcher who's killing his own people but personally, I believe that it should be NONE OF MY COUNTRY'S BUSINESS. Thats his problem, not ours. The Iraqis should overthrow their own leader.

We've got problems on the home front that need to be dealt with. Screw war. Why now? Why does he wanna go into Iraq now? Why not North Korea? Why not Iran? Why ANYWHERE? Why dont we just protect ourselves, tighten our immigration laws to choke-level, and fix all the domestic problems, because by-golly, theres plenty.
N/A
 
Klaus
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TWAL1011

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:33 am

TWAL1011: Despite what you think, no one (yes, even "cowboy" Bush) wants this to turn to war. There is only one person who has any real ability to stop it, and that is Saddam.

"But mommy, he made me kick him in the face!!"

When even the average loving mother doesn´t fall for this nonsense, do you think american presidents should be held to an even lower standard?

I don´t think so.
 
Hamfist
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:39 am

777236ER,

Nice to see that democracy is only acceptable when it favours US wishes.

UMM...wasn't that YOUR Prime Minister about two podiums to Bush's left??

Looks like GW is taking a page out of Truman's book...

"I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell."
Harry S Truman, in Look, Apr. 3, 1956
 
Thumper
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:39 am

Schoenorama:Resolution 1441 DOES NOT automatically authorize the use of war. A new resolution is needed for that. If a war is launched on Iraq by Spain, UK and the US without a specific resolution which authorizes the use of force, Spain, the UK and the US will be in breach of the UNSC and international law and, IMO, could be considered as "rogue states".

Wow that's really scary,In Your opinion, why don't you take it to the U.N.? Maybe they could pass a resolution on it. Let us know how it works out in 12 years.Or maybe even Spain doesn't care about your opinion.
 
silverfox
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:40 am

Having watched the 2003 version of the Three Stooges,
correct me if i am wrong but is the message

'We want you to vote yes on a war so we can go in,BUT if you dont we are going in anyway'

Well if thats democracy i'm a a kettle
 
TWAL1011
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:49 am

Klaus, that analogy doesn't even make sense.
 
CX747
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:50 am

Democracy is having a voice and being allowed to voice it. France, Germany and Russia have all had their chance to voice their opinions. There opinions vary from the United States, Great Britain and Spain. The U.S., Britain and Spain don't have the right to tell France, Germany or Russia what to say when it comes to the Iraqis. That being said, those nations in return have no right to tell us how to conduct our UNILATERAL military movement. Diplomacy is over and we are moving forward. 1441 was passed with full knowledge by every state of what it meant. Now that it has come to step forward, nations are saying that they didn't "think" it meant military action. No of course not, it meant that Martha Stewart was going to do a "How to make camouflage" segment in Baghdad.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Schoenorama
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:53 am

To Cfalk:

"But Resolution 687 does. It made the 1991 cease-fire conditional on Iraq's unconditional and complete disarmement, to be confirmed by inspections."

I've just checked at both the UN site http://www.un.org/as UNSCOM website http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/index.html and nowhere does it say that the cease-fire was conditional of Iraq's compliance with the resolution. All it says that a formal cease-fire was effective, as from the official acceptance by Iraq of that resolution.

Thumper:

It's really nice to see you here, Thumper. Are you going to take part of this discussion in a serious way, or do you, as always, just critisize MY opinions in a real childish way?
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
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yyz717
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:22 am

I am filled with a sense of dread.

Only just now? Haven't you felt a sense of dread for the last 12 years during which time Saddam has been gassing Kurds? I have.

17 resolutions huh? that means he has only 49 more to go before he has breached as many as some other country we know....

Oh, you mean Israel ADG? The only democracy in the Middle East? I'll support democratic Israel anytime over Iraq.

If Bush wanted diplomacy he'd be engaged in it ..

What do you call the incessant diplomacy that has gone on for 12 years? How many more decades of diplomacy would ease your left-wing anti-Western views (while Iraq continues to gas Kurds, invade neighbouring countries, etc)?

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
david b.
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:24 am

Oh, you mean Israel ADG? The only democracy in the Middle East? I'll support democratic Israel anytime over Iraq.


So that means they can do whatever they want? They don't have to follow international laws (Not that they do)? Saddam gassing the kurds is like the IDF killing innocent arab children. No difference.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
N79969
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:26 am

Yyz717,

There are 200,000 Americans (not Canadians) about to engage in combat. Some will not come home. Hence my sense of dread.
 
david b.
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:30 am

How many canadian troops are in the ME right now? How many are going to fight in Iraq?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
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yyz717
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:33 am

There are 200,000 Americans (not Canadians) about to engage in combat.

I know. I'm ashamed of my country's noncommital stance, as are many Canadians.

It's a noble & correct cause disarming a tyrant for the betterment of humankind, despite a vocal minority of tyrant/terror apologists in the West (who ironically enjoy a life under the protection of the same US military).

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
david b.
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:40 am

It's a noble & correct cause disarming a tyrant for the betterment of humankind, despite a vocal minority of tyrant/terror apologists in the West (who ironically enjoy a life under the protection of the same US military).



Yes disarm him but there are other ways except for war.vocal minority of tyrant/terror apologists in the West? What a stupid statement. You don't even live in the US. Love it when foreigners try to tell us what to do.  Yeah sure  Yeah sure
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:42 am

I know. I'm ashamed of my country's noncommital stance, as are many Canadians

What's there to be ashamed of? Where's the shame in opposing something you don't believe in or agree with? It's not Canadians who will be on the receiving end of Al Qaeda for years to come.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
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yyz717
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:48 am

What's there to be ashamed of?

Canada should be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with its neighbour & best friend in their hour of need, as we did in WW1, WW2, the Korean War, Gulf War Part 1.

It's not Canadians who will be on the receiving end of Al Qaeda for years to come.

Tell that to the families of the 100 Canadian victims of 9-11. An Al-Qaeda attack on any Western country is an attack on all of them.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: "Monday Will Be A Moment Of Truth For The World"

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:53 am

Canada should be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with its neighbour & best friend in their hour of need, as we did in WW1, WW2, the Korean War, Gulf War Part 1.

Canada doesn't agree with military action like nearly every other western nation, and to compare this with WW1/2, Korea is naive to say the least. In those times, the US was under DIRECT threat, this is not the case now.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
CX747
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Yyz717

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:54 am

Yyz717, I thank you for your kind post. I'm proud to have Canada has an allie and a friend even though we are disagreeing on this current conflict. In fact I have to say this American's one and only weakness is a blond beauty from Toronto. May we be allies for ever.

Arsenal@LHR: Appeasement of dictators. I guess it is nothing new in the European continent. I believe your country found out first hand in the 1940s what happens when you appease dictators. Fortunately, we have the back bone to stand up against the tyrannical people of the world. We don't live in fear and we don't set our foreign policy on possible Al Qaeda attacks.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower

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