jsf119
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:46 pm

To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 2:40 pm

I would like to voice my opinion to all of these protester's who think they are doing the right thing. I will make my case in a few points and will do so respectfully. By the way keep in mind you are a minority. Almost 70% of Americans support this war.
1. The first statement that this war is over oil is absolutley crazy. If this war were about oil we would have been in Iraq a long time before this. There would have been nothing to stop us from getting oil earlier plus now I hope all of you are paying attention WE ARE THE RICHEST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WE DO NOT NEED IRAQI OIL NEITHER DOES BUSH OR ANYONE ELSE THESE PEOPLE ARE ALREADY MILLIONAIRES THEY DONT NEED THE MONEY. Hussien has been torturing and murdering his own people and has ties to those devils that attacked us on 9/11. In fact people in Iraq want us there to liberate them. Iraqi's were asking American journalist before we invaded when we were coming they could'nt wait. Do you honestly think your average Iraqi really wants Saddam to stay in power? Also how many civilans have been killed so far? Not the thousands you people are crying about. So if you people are so concerned about innocent life how come you chastize two men of great courage (Bush,Blair) and support a tyrant who killed millions of innocent people? How come you hold signs saying No War FOR Oil but yet I have not seen a SINGLE one of you holding a sign saying Saddam Stop the Torture or Saddam Disarm.
2. Where were you people in the 1990's? Your wonderful Bill Clinton attacked Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, and of course in 1998 in order to avoid impeachment he diverted attention by bombing Iraq. Yet I never saw a SINGLE war protester even though he did all of this WITHOUT even trying to get U.N. authorization.
3. This one is very important so please pay attention. Right now KIDS thats right kids between 18-25 are over there risking their lives to keep our lives safe so we can have our freedom. They are risking their lives to free millions of people who have been abused and tormented for many years. Please show them some decency and even though you don't agree with the war at least support them and know they are protecting your freedom.
4. This one is my closing point and it is extremely ironic because you people seem to be so "concerned" about innocent life. However you are supporting a dictator who has killed millions. Whose son has a hobby of raping women. A regime that kills children in front of their dissident parents. Who torture so many so brutally. Also the risk of another terrorist attack in the United States
is very high. Yet you champions of human rights block major roads in cities such as Chicago and San Francisco, Boston and on Saturday in New York. If there is a terrorist attack in a major city and you people are blocking major roads to exodus the city your actions puts thousands of lives in danger.
Your actions and signs alone are great signs that in fact you are not concerned about human rights instead some of you are mislead by the people who organize these rallies or by the very liberal mainstream media in the United Stated. You are using this anti-war platform to push your anti-American views, your anti-Bush views and your socialist agenda. Just remember for every one of you protesters there are 3 Americans with opposite views and the fact is that it is sickening that you bash one of the greatest countries in the world and support one of the most brutal regimes ever.
 
Guest

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's&am

Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:11 pm

Jsf119, just because you disagree with the anti-war people, you have to refer to them as "Americans" IN QUOTES (in your title line)? How closed-minded of you. I don't have the time to reply to all of your points, but here's a few:

"I will make my case in a few points and will do so respectfully."

If that's your goal, putting "Americans" in quotes isn't the way to achieve it.

"Right now KIDS thats right kids between 18-25 are over there risking their lives to keep our lives safe so we can have our freedom."

It's precisely because many people care about putting these troops in harm's way that they are so skeptical about the necessity of this war (among other things, that this is really about us having our freedom). But, yes, everybody should wish the best for our troops.

"How come you hold signs saying No War FOR Oil but yet I have not seen a SINGLE one of you holding a sign saying Saddam Stop the Torture or Saddam Disarm."

Everybody would like Saddam to stop the torture, but many Americans are speaking out because they don't like about what our president is doing in our name by starting this war.

"You are using this anti-war platform to push your anti-American views, your anti-Bush views and your socialist agenda."

Based on your post, one could easily argue that you are using this pro-war platform to push your pro-Bush views and your reactionary agenda.

[Edited 2003-03-21 07:26:14]
 
nonrevman
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:33 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:45 pm

I am an American who does not support the way in which this war was engaged. Unlike some people, I feel like it is important to have the support of your allies before taking unilateral action. It seems like the UN was asking for more time to prove that Saddam had the weapons of mass destruction and if indeed he did have them, then they were willing to impose a deadline. It just seems like we were in too much of a hurry. It is doubtful that Saddam could have hit the US 6000 miles away with his technology, so why did we not give the UN a little more time to sort out a plan for dealing with Iraq? Even though America is militarily the strongest nation, it does not mean that we do not need our allies and to maintain a strong bond with them. Like many other Americans, I fear that this is going to cause some undue tension between the US and the international community.

Also, Bush does seem more preoccupied with Iraq than he does his own country. While people all around me are losing jobs and the ability to pay the bills, we are talking of liberating the Iraqi people. I am all for doing this, but would simply like the support of our longstanding friends across the sea--both in a military and a financial sense.

With that said, I am fully behind the troops now that combat has begun. Last night, I hoped with all my might that Saddam was taken out in that first strike, because it would have saved many lives and helped put this conflict to a quick end. Maybe that can still take place. As I watch our troops move swiftly across the desert, I hope they accomplish their mission and much more without casualties. I want every single one of them to do the job and come home. I also hope that we get rid of the madman in Baghdad and give the Iraqi people some much needed liberation from oppression now that this whole thing is started. I am behind our troops all the way now that they have started the campaign.

Again, I wish that the war had taken a different approach. Even if victory is swift, it will still have some major consequences. It should not have started this way. One last thing, I am getting tired of the way that Americans who oppose this war are being lumped together as all Democrats or Hanoi-Jane types, or human rights demonstrators, peaceniks, flower-children, or whatever. There are people from all walks of life, political parties, income levels, and ages who have misgivings about the process leading up to this. Enough with the stereotypes that we are not as patriotic as you are just because we have a different opinion!
 
redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:50 pm

You make some awfully broad assumptions. Let me tell you my story, although I doubt you will be convinced and I wonder if you will spend the time reading and thinking rather than simply dismissing what I have to say.

First of all, not all protesters are protesting the war on the basis of "it's all about oil." Some of us are just against war in general. Some of us think there are too many problems at home for us to be going out and policing the world.

As a Christian who has personally been given the gift of mercy through Jesus Christ, and having been called to demonstrate that mercy to others, I am a pacifist. There may be other Christians who feel that they are called to arms nut I am not one of them. My guiding passages in being a pacifist:


Matthew 7:2-4
"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?"

Ephesians 6: 10-18
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.


In the tradition of Christ's crucifixion, I would rather die at the hand of my enemy praying God's mercy on his/her sould than I would damn my enemy with my own sword.

I am against Saddam Hussein's tyranny. I have prayed and continue to pray against the tyranny in this world whether it be abroad or at home. I listened with horror when Glenn Beck read about Uday and Qusay Hussein's "hobbies." I pray that the Lord will work in their hearts, or if they have been given over to their carnal desires, that the Lord will temper the evil perpetrated at their hands.

Second, I'm aghast that you have such a short memory about our actions in Somalia, Bosnia, etc. Perhaps the few years younger you are than me means that you were too young to care at the time of these actions. There WERE protesters against our actions there. Perhaps not as large, but there were demonstrations all over New York and Washington, especially when our soldiers were slaughtered in the streets of Mogadishu. Many of us were appalled at the use of American soldiers in Haiti. Remember, though, that all of those missions were portrayed as "mercy missions" by the media, and many people treated them as such instead of protesting against "military action." If you don't believe me, then educate yourself by looking up articles in the Reader's Guide to Periodical Literature media index. Your local library should have The New York Times on microfilm, in which you will find articles listed from the Reader's Guide.

I, for one, saw right through the attack on Iraq during the impeachment. And yes, I supported the impeachment.

Once again, you fail to understand that many of us who are anti-war are very much in support of the troops. Just because I think that war is wrong, I also understand that these people are doing the job they chose. Yet there is immense stress on our troops. They have been trained to kill, but actually going out and carrying out homicide against a real live human being is very difficult. By the way, I say "homicide" because even execution deaths are listed as "homicide" on the death certificate. When a person goes out and attacks another person knowing that their actions will lead to their opponent's death, it is homicide. This is why people come home with post-traumatic stress -- it's not just what is done to a person, but also what that person him/herself has done to others. There are still people in our armed forces who joined for educational opportunities, vocational training, and/or scholarships, who never expected to get into combat. In addition, there are those who knew/know exactly what they are going into, and yet they must put aside some of their humanity to distance themselves from the very real threat of mortal injury and death. So I pray every day, actually much more than once a day right now, that each and every person in uniform will be given wisdom and mercy from God, protected from evil, death and destruction, according to God's will alone and not that of any man.

Finally, I have to say that I pledge no allegiance to "America" because I am called to allegiance to a higher power, my God in heaven. Even so, enjoying the benefits of a citizen of the United States of America, I do MORE daily in my civic duties than many so-called Americans do in their entire lives. I vote in every election that I can research (I do not vote if I don't know who/what to vote for -- that's not right!) I pay my taxes. I work a full-time job (I'm lucky to have one), volunteer in civic organizations, and pray for my leaders and for the people of this nation.

How dare you call me anti-American?
Up, up and away!
 
radarbeam
Posts: 998
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:00 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:04 pm

Would you care to explain why someone is automatically labeled as "anti-american" as soon as this person oppose war?

Why i'm against this war? Simple, for economic reasons. Bush as massacred the economic situation in the last 2 years, and now he wants a war... go figure.

In Bush speech a few days ago he warned Saddam not to set fire to the oil wells, because "it belongs to the Iraqi people" Ohh right... One must be really naive to beleive this, Bush has never cared for someone else than big corporations, do you think he cares for Iraqi people? I don't think so. He just want control of the wells to share the petrol with his oil buddies.

Why doesn't Bush acts in N. Korea, Libya or in every other dictatures in the world? Because there's no oil, simple.



 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:09 pm

No oil in Libya? Then what the hell am I doing there?
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:11 pm

Redngold,

I agree it is not up to US troops to judge Saddam and his cronies, or to punish him. That responsibility is reserved for God, before whom Saddam & Co will one day stand.

The job of US troops is simply to arrange that meeting.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:12 pm

I hope that Jsf119 realizes that, by calling people opposed to the war "anti-American" and referring to them as "Americans" in quotes, he's the one who's being un-American.
 
Guest

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:44 pm

"The job of US troops is simply to arrange that meeting."

Now that's what I call good humor. Cfalk, that was hilarious.

'Speed

 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:04 pm

"The job of US troops is simply to arrange that meeting."

Now that's what I call good humor. Cfalk, that was hilarious.


It's no longer very original, though. If I remember correctly
it was Rumsfeld who said so during war on Taliban.
I support the right to arm bears
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:05 pm

>I would like to voice my opinion to all of these protester's who think they are doing the right thing

We do not only THINK that, we ARE doing the right thing.

Calling people who are anti-war, anti american is very dumb, but it is a generalisation which is made a lot these days  Sad
 
Guest

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:11 pm

I wonder what the anti-war crowd's reaction will be several years down the road, when the Iraqis are a free and happy people. I wonder what their opinion will be about Americans being able to breathe a little easier because of diminished risk of terrorism. I wonder if they will be glad that the entire world will be a safer place.

What will you all say then?

'Speed

You'll probably just find something new.
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:14 pm

FREE and HAPPY people?

In your dreams maybe, but get real instead of listening to Bush his propaganda.
 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:16 pm

I'm not anti-American. I'm just anti-dumbass.
 
Guest

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:17 pm

"In your dreams maybe, but get real instead of listening to Bush his propaganda."

Ok, so why are Iraqi troops surrenduring so early? Why are Iraqis already celebrating? If you do not believe that the Iraqis desire liberation, you will soon be proven wrong.

'Speed
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:24 pm

You have a totally wrong impression of this country.

They will not be liberated.

/Frederic
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:27 pm

'Speed, may your dreams come true. Perhaps you have a hard time believing it, but after war has started I truly hope everything will end up fine: Iraqis will warmly welcome the allies, human rights violations will stop and everyone live happily ever after.
But protests in Saudia Arabia already burst those bubbles, I'm afraid. We can not predict the impact of this war in the long run. How can you tell this war really diminishes the risk of terrorism?
I support the right to arm bears
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:29 pm

NoUFO: the long-term impact of this unilateral and arrogant way of acting of the US will be dramatic I'm afraid  Sad

/Frederic
 
Guest

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:38 pm

"How can you tell this war really diminishes the risk of terrorism?"

How could it do anything BUT diminish the risk of terrorism? It removes the infrastructure that Hussien made available to terrorists.

"...the long-term impact of this unilateral and arrogant way of acting of the US will be dramatic I'm afraid."

You are wrong. It will be proven in time. And how can you possibly say that this was a "unilateral" action? Nearly forty countries are allied with the US. And there is nothing arrogant about freeing an oppressed people, and proctecting the US citizenry in the process.

'Speed

 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:47 pm

How could it do anything BUT diminish the risk of terrorism? It removes the infrastructure that Hussien made available to terrorists.

Time will tell. If you take this for granted, you must be pretty naive.
And even if this happens (and remains so): What's with Saudi Arabia and other countries?
I support the right to arm bears
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:45 pm

Thank you for your opinion.

Now take your "quotes" and pound it. You say that s*** to me in my face and you're gonna get levelled. My family has given its' dearest blood in duty to this great and blessed land. And I don't need yet another self righteous dittohead who is in this fantasy that he gets to proclaim among his fellow citizens who's right, who loves America and who's on God's good side.

The flag of the United States of America is MINE every bit as much as it yours, white boy. I hope that fact , and the fact thats therss not a g**damned thing you can do about it, eats a hole in your gut.

I wonder what the anti-war crowd's reaction will be several years down the road, when the Iraqis are a free and happy people.

With respect, Speed, probably envy. If the vision of America this poster gets chub to comes to light, we will be neither free or happy.

 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 9:29 pm

Jsf119, I was against the start of this war, for reasons I've gone over and over on this forum. Somehow, you think that doesn't make me a loyal American. Now, even my many detractors on here will tell you I'm ANYTHING but Anti-American.  Smile

You could possibly be less of an "American" than those people who are peacefully protesting the war. (Those causing violence, they're a different story). They are exercising their Constitutionallly-protected right to show dissent with their government. You, on the other hand, and many conservatives-Sean Hannity of FOX comes to mind-belittle and demean ANYONE who disagrees with George W. Bush on this issue. If you cannot be tolerant of others' views, that makes you the anthises of what a true Amerian is really all about.
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6058
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:48 pm

About the oil: It's true, the US don't need the oil because they're lacking it from other countries. What they do need is a country with a pro-US government that will ensure a stable flow of oil. Because if such a government can be installed, the US wouldn't have to face the problems that occur when a situation like the one in Venezuela rises.

I'm pretty sure that the US doesn't like having to depend on Saudi Arabia, where the population is heavily suppressed, and where a revolution like the one in Iran would mean a major oil crisis.
 
dazeflight
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:00 pm

How come you hold signs saying No War FOR Oil but yet I have not seen a SINGLE one of you holding a sign saying Saddam Stop the Torture or Saddam Disarm.

do a search on a non-american news-website for pictures of the anti-war demonstrations all over the world and you will get pics with signs like "against war, against saddam", "stop war and anti-americanism" or "force saddam out of power without a war" (these messages are of course not always in english)

Secondly, don't even try to pretend you care about the Iraqi people. You don't give a shit about them and if the 1st Gulf-war hadn't occured, Suddam would probably still be a good friend of yours.

ciao
Daniel
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:21 pm

What they do need is a country with a pro-US government that will ensure a stable flow of oil.

They already have that. Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Great Britain and other North Sea operators, etc. And among all of them, Iraq oil would have to travel the farthest.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
dazeflight
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:26 pm

"And among all of them, Iraq oil would have to travel the farthest."

...and last the longest.

Daniel
 
Amir
Posts: 1224
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 8:56 pm

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:31 pm

Hi Charles,

there is a difference of how secure the oil is controlled. The current US forces in the gulf do stress on the current regimes to continue to act pro American. But these acting regimes will not last forever so they need more control.

If the US (and i would bet my head) finishes the honorable duty in Iraq and implements the first Democracy in the Arab wolrd....., it will leave some few soldiers (around 100.00 or more) with some light weapons. Then they have the whole area under a way different kind of control. All the Oil of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, Qatar and Bahrain will be secured. This is simply the definition of the word imperialism.
After that they can devote all the time they have to chase the new Bin Laden's that will have been acting then. This is the sad prospect of this war.


Rgds
Amir
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:42 pm

This is simply the definition of the word imperialism.

No, I don't think so.

Do you know the saying, "If you owe the bank $100,000, the bank has got you by the balls. If you owe the bank $100,000,000, you've got the bank by the balls"?

The US is a very important customer of countries like Saudi Arabia. And due to the Saudi's great lack of foresight, they have not placed any emphisis on diversifying their economy. If you are overdependant on one single customer, you have to sing his tune when he tells you to. That's not imperialism - that's business. Ask any of Toyota's suppliers about what they do when Toyota tells them to jump.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sat Mar 22, 2003 7:47 am

when the Iraqis are a free and happy people.

Enlighten me as to which country has actually achieved this state of "free and happy people" after being invaded by the west .. perhaps i've missed one when I look at

Vietnam
Korea
Somalia
Kosovo
Afghanistan

What've I missed?




ADG
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sat Mar 22, 2003 7:57 am

Germany and Japan, perhaps? Italy?
 
TechRep
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 6:53 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:20 am



Mr. ADG,

I was stationed in Korea and I can tell you they seemed awful happy to me. Many times I would take the train and older Koreans would approach me and shake my hand in appreciation for America’s involvement in the Korea War.

I have stood on the DMZ in Korea and I can tell you it's not pretty on the other side. I was stationed there and helped defend that nation and was proud to do so. I never had a problem with Koreans and I had an absolutely great time. Americans shed 50K lives to defend that peninsula and I shudder when I see veterans of “The Frozen Chosen”.

The War in Afghanistan isn't even over with yet and you already bitchin'. Give it time things don’t happen overnight. This is not a microwave meal, things like this can take 20 years to mature and take root. Freedom must take root and grow.

Granted some nations are beyond reproach but Vietnam is a now thriving country. We have made amends with that nation and consider the war a mistake, something we readily admit.

Nations such as Belgium and France to name a few have taken it upon themselves to disagree with our position in Iraq. We have taken upon ourselves to rid Iraq of Saddam and so far have been met as liberators. This has angered a lot of Nations but so be it.

Your one-sidedness is very apperant; you only chose to point out the failure and never the success of the USA. You always point out events after WWII and that's fine but the events after WWII were more complicated.

WWII destabilized the world for almost 50 years if not longer and we have had to deal with those crisis. You may continue to bash the USA but I sit here happy and proud to be an American. Tomorrow should Australia come under attack, I would be there tomorrow to fight on your side and defend your nation as well.

TechRep
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:34 am

TechRep...

It could be argued that the Korean conflict isn't truly 'over' either. And you speak nobly of good will well earned by the blood of 50 thousand Americans...yet how long does it take politicians to p*ss away that good will? Somethimes mere days. Lately with one idiotic mouthful.

You make a good point. Our record has good points as well as bad.

Still, as the NY Times pointed out today, no Western conquerer since before Napolean has managed to 'colonize' or effectively govern any part of the Middle East for more than a few years. I pray we have moved beyond what we need from Iraq by then. But my heart tells me we won't.

 
TechRep
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 6:53 am

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:44 am

I await your reply ADG.

TechRep
 
Guest

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:55 am

TechRep,

Don't take it personally. ADG struggles with the concepts of "happy" and "free."

'Speed
 
Guest

RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sat Mar 22, 2003 2:26 pm

ooh Normal, more mature and intelligent posts from you ...

TechRep .. you struggle with the issue of gender? I dont' spend all day sitting here playing on the internet, you'll get a response when I feel like making one (and not a second before).

Your one sidedness is no more apparent then mine, your comments on North & South Korea are not supported by media and other reports available to non US citizens.

I agree that it will take many years in Afghanistan to sort out the problems born there over the last 25 years but i've not yet seen a single reasonable explaination of why it was left as a festering den of iniquity (so to speak) for 25 years before the US developed a "social conscience". Nor do I understand why people can be so blase about the constant and ongoing deaths of innocent civilians in that country.

You see, even if the attacks were well intentioned they are not being led by the appropriate groups and they do not have the best interests of the people of the region at heart. The move into Afghanistan was to get OBL. I have no problems with that, but I do have a problem with the dishonesty used to justify that. If the American Prez had any balls he'd just get up and say .. "we don't give a shit about the Afghanis, we just want OBL" which is what's going on. Well, except for the fact that they haven't managed to get him yet.

I am not sure you are accurate in your statement about angered Nations. I dont' think it's the removal of Hussein that angers them, but the dishonesty around it. Lies and deception abound. The US Government say that Iraq is a direct threat to the US, that's not true. They say they support Al Queda, that's not proven either. Again the US Prez should just have the balls to get up and say "I'm sick of Hussein making an ass out of me" ... and I want the money from oil sales to prop up the failing US economy.

I don't bash the US and I don't think I ever have .. I do bash the agressive and sometimes illegal foreign policy and I do bash the idiot you call president. But I have justification for the statements. I also have opinions on other countries but you don't see those because they're not discussion issues here in the forums. You bleat about anti-american sentiment but have a look at the make up of the forums .. it's almost all americans bashing everyone else and we are just responding. You have opinions about your country and the world and your entitled to them, just as i'm entitled to mine.

As for defence of Australia, America has a contractural obligation to protect Australia, that's been in effect for 50 years and it's non negotiable. The continued alliance is one of the issues that the US used to force Australian compliance to the war in Iraq. We made a decision based not upon what was legal or moral, but what was in the best interests of Australias economy which is why so many Australians are angry about our involvement in the war.






ADG
 
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RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sun Mar 23, 2003 7:52 am

"I agree that it will take many years in Afghanistan to sort out the problems born there over the last 25 years but i've not yet seen a single reasonable explaination of why it was left as a festering den of iniquity (so to speak) for 25 years before the US developed a "social conscience". Nor do I understand why people can be so blase about the constant and ongoing deaths of innocent civilians in that country."

"but I do have a problem with the dishonesty used to justify that. If the American Prez had any balls he'd just get up and say .. "we don't give a shit about the Afghanis, we just want OBL" which is what's going on. Well, except for the fact that they haven't managed to get him yet."



I agree partially. If it took the US supposedly 25 years to develop a "social conciousness", where was Europe during this time as well? Their ambivelence to country to which they had no financial interest is fairly shown by their lack of action as opposed to Iraq, which is also a corrupted, tyranical backwater, yet everyone, France, Germany and to a lesser degree the US, have vast financial entanglements.So blame must be placed allover, not only to the US. The "innocent deaths" in Afghanistan are solely the blame of the Taliban and ObL who wrought not only their own form of terror and devastation, but also brought upon themselves and the innocents under their control the isolation and sanction of international bodies such as the UN, Europe, the United States etc etc. No ne here is "blase" about human catastrophe; and that is why ridding Afghanistan of the Taliban and Alqaida are tantamount, and with their removal will the cessation of human catastrophe.

Secondly, the US president has not used dishonesty at all. In removing the Taliban and the continuing search of Ob, the tyranny and needless slaughter of civilians by them has stopped--a consequencial effect of US actions. The reason we haven't gotten OBL is because he is probably couched in one of his "benefactor" states like SA or Indonesia...  Insane


Maybe you shouldn't be so suspect and filled with poison for the US (save me the cliche about being for the people but against the government--that's BS and we know it since we the people vote for the gvoernment). The US is not necessarily better but certainly not as bad as the disengenous, decietful European nations like France and Germany, who are doing their best to impede any peace and cravenly protect their business interests by even stooping to use and manipulate the UN ( the epitome of hegemony) to that end. As a matter of fact, even the "brush off" you mention of Afghanistan by the US is as much of a problem of the Europeans, since they did nothing and it is closer to them. If anything you should veiw Europe and perhpas the rest of the first world with similiar revulsion, since everyone has skeletons in their closets.

 
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RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sun Mar 23, 2003 8:58 am

I agree partially. If it took the US supposedly 25 years to develop a "social conciousness", where was Europe during this time as well?

I can't speak for Europe but in Australia were were lobbying the United Nations AND the United States. I, personally, wrote numerous letters and then eMails to anyone I could about the plight of women in Afghanistan.

You need to remember that Afghanistan was a battleground of the "cold war", the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan were trained and funded by the US to fight against the Soviets. The country beside it, Uzbekistan fell to the Soviets.

When the cold war ended the Americans went home, the freedom fighters used their weaponry & skills to take over the country and lo & behold we have the Taliban in Afghanistan and all the human rights violations that have been used to justify the war in Afghanistan. It may surprise you guys to know that the life expectancy in Uzbekistan, which fell to the soviets is nearly double that of Afghanistan and the women enjoy a better freedom of life. There is a message there.

yet everyone, France, Germany and to a lesser degree the US, have vast financial entanglements.

Lesser extend or better hidden? Corporate greed is a world wide issue.

So blame must be placed allover, not only to the US.

This is true, the only reason focus appears to be on the US only is the action and reaction from Americans, both here in the forums and in the real world.

The "innocent deaths" in Afghanistan are solely the blame of the Taliban and ObL who wrought not only their own form of terror and devastation,

I disagree, negligence of stupidity has caused deaths in Afghanistan and they cannot be explained away by blaming the Taliban and in reality, how do you lay all the blame on an organisation who's history tracks back to US support and training? Surely it is reasonable to take into consideration the negligent actions of people who arm & train an agressive group and then walk away and leave them to perpetrate untold attrocities on others?

Is that really unreasonable?

If I gave a madman a gun and he shot your family wouldn't I be partially at fault for giving him the means to do so?

but also brought upon themselves and the innocents under their control the isolation and sanction of international bodies such as the UN, Europe, the United States etc etc.

Are we talking Iraq or Afghanistan? Because in Afghanistan the US totally ignored them and the pleas of international do gooders and the fact that Afghanistan was one of the leading suppliers of drugs and only took notice when it was found that OBL was hiding there. He wasn't even being supported by the Taliban who offered to hand him over to an independant country for prosecution, the US refused that offer and chose instead to attack the country.

I am pleased that the Taliban have been removed from power but the reasons for going into the country were unfounded and unreasonable. That remains my opinion on that. I also am not impressed by what has been going on since then, the country remains in disarray and the women are just as bad off as they were before on the whole.

No ne here is "blase" about human catastrophe; and that is why ridding Afghanistan of the Taliban and Alqaida are tantamount, and with their removal will the cessation of human catastrophe.

But then how do you explain the fact that the "catastrophe" was ignored until the Taliban refused to hand OBL over and then suddenly it was the biggest news. That country didn't get in the state it was in because OBL attacked the US, it was like that for nearly 25 years through at least 2 ruling parties (well one king and one party).

Secondly, the US president has not used dishonesty at all.

The US President has lied to you and to the rest of us. You only need to listen to what he's got to say and watch his face, you can actually tell when he's lying by his body language.

In removing the Taliban and the continuing search of Ob, the tyranny and needless slaughter of civilians by them has stopped

That's not completely accurate, the fighting in Afghanistan continues.

--a consequencial effect of US actions. The reason we haven't gotten OBL is because he is probably couched in one of his "benefactor" states like SA or Indonesia...

That's quite an offensive accusation and one that you have no proof over. Why is it that you guys are so quick to accuse other countries of atrocities and so quick to vilify those of us who point out that people in glass houses really shouldn't throw stones? Indonesia, for all it's faults, has been nothing but helpful in this war on terror, particularly working with the west on the bombing in Bali and their reward for making an effort? Being accused by people like you.

By the way, popular opinion says he's in Pakistan and if that's the case he's not being supported by the government as you seem to infer.

Maybe you shouldn't be so suspect and filled with poison for the US

and maybe you shouldn't be so suspect and filled with poisen for non US countries?

(save me the cliche about being for the people but against the government--that's BS and we know it since we the people vote for the gvoernment).

Actually less than 50% of your people vote as far as I can see. It's only BS because it suits your purpose for it to be. It's becomming far more apparent that some in the US want the world to bow down to them, that the world must agree with the US 100% ... well sorry mate, but it isnt' going to happen no matter how bitter you get and how rude you are.

Remember what happened to the last superpower who tried to do that?

The US is not necessarily better but certainly not as bad as the disengenous, decietful European nations like France and Germany, who are doing their best to impede any peace and cravenly protect their business interests by even stooping to use and manipulate the UN ( the epitome of hegemony) to that end.

Economically, the US is no worse as they're just protecting their own economic interests. As for the rest they're worse. The verbal attacks on the French and Germans by ignorant Americans are just getting worse and worse, gone are any attempts to understand their stand and counter it with facts. Now we have forums full of unwarranted attacks on other countries by the very people that are bleating about the anti-american sentiment in these forums!

If you believe the French and German stand is wrong, put the facts out and prove it to everyone else.

As a matter of fact, even the "brush off" you mention of Afghanistan by the US is as much of a problem of the Europeans,

Brush off? 25 years of opression, a life expectancy of under 40 years, a literacy rate of less than 15% for women (and those women who can read are at risk of being beaten to death because of it). "brush off"?

since they did nothing and it is closer to them.

But they didn't cause the issue either, surely you're not from the generation of the "no responsibilty memememememem" group are you?

If anything you should veiw Europe and perhpas the rest of the first world with similiar revulsion, since everyone has skeletons in their closets.

I have never indicated that America stands alone in the blame, my own country shares a lot of shame for actions that have occured in the world in the past. Not for Afghanistan because we did what we could and made many Afghanis welcome into our country, but certainly the issue of East Timor is Australias shame.





ADG
 
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RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sun Mar 23, 2003 9:21 am

I agree with everything Jsf119 says. He puts it very well!  Smile

Adam
NWA ROCKS!!!  Smile  Smile  Smile
AS ROCKS!!!  Smile  Smile  Smile

I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!! I HOPE THEY HAVE FUN BOMBING SADDAM  Big thumbs up
 
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RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sun Mar 23, 2003 5:41 pm

I HOPE THEY HAVE FUN BOMBING SADDAM  Big thumbs up

I see in your profile that you are still a bit young to understand what's going on, that will probably partially explain this statement  Insane

/Frederic
 
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RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Sun Mar 23, 2003 9:21 pm

Roadrunner165 wrote:

I HOPE THEY HAVE FUN BOMBING SADDAM

Dude - grow up. War isn't a game.
My name is Scott, and I am addicted to writing trip reports.
 
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RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:16 am

I wonder what the anti-war crowd's reaction will be several years down the road, when the Iraqis are a free and happy people. I wonder what their opinion will be about Americans being able to breathe a little easier because of diminished risk of terrorism. I wonder if they will be glad that the entire world will be a safer place.

All I know is that there are several Iraqis, including civilians right now that are dead that weren't dead last week. Not so free and happy.

 
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RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:29 am

"yet everyone, France, Germany and to a lesser degree the US, have vast financial entanglements.

Lesser extend or better hidden? Corporate greed is a world wide issue."

However it may be an issue, there is no way back to bartering or subsistance farming. Secondly, without "corporations operating multinationaly" there would be no economy and perhaps no standard of living. Corporate greed is laid at the stockholders feet.

"Actually less than 50% of your people vote as far as I can see. It's only BS because it suits your purpose for it to be. It's becomming far more apparent that some in the US want the world to bow down to them, that the world must agree with the US 100% ... well sorry mate, but it isnt' going to happen no matter how bitter you get and how rude you are."

Post your statistics as far as who votes. Secondly, if someone doesn't vote, it is their problem since they don't participate.. And it is BS, because the government is a reflection of those who vote. As far as "bowing down"--that is a matter of perception. It appears to most of the US bashers here, that any time their government atgrees with the US on something, it is evil, cowtowing etc etc. a tiresome statement--especially in light of how Tony Blair convinvced our government to change and compromise a bit and we did. We don't ask for 100%, never did. That is a miscoception again, of anti-USbaters/bashers. Bitter, no. Rude--only playing the cards that are dealt on this forum :-i.

"But they didn't cause the issue either, surely you're not from the generation of the "no responsibilty memememememem" group are you?"

No, but they materially aided and abetted the problem, didn't they? Thay doesn't excuse them now does it? Aren't you from the "closed minded" generation, since anything the US does is wrong?

"The verbal attacks on the French and Germans by ignorant Americans are just getting worse and worse, gone are any attempts to understand their stand and counter it with facts."

These verbal attacks are no worse that the attacks on the US by Schroeder, Chretien, Chriac and a myriad of other synchophants. As far as "facts" the same holds true Europe, who also ignore facts and select passive means to to dealing with situations where those haven't worked. It appears that Europeans are guilty of the same exact thing and hide/ignore facts as well. Andf they are even worse than the US because of the lengths they have gone to veil these facts.

The French and Germans as are the Russians and US are wrong for the following ADG:

1-12 years worth of sanctions haven't worked, neither has UN declarations 678, 687 or 1441.
2- Sanctions don't work because of European and Russian business dealings which sidestep sanctions--including the sale of parts from Dassault-clearly not humanitarian are they? Same for Russian technology being sold to jam GPS equipment--clearly taking place after sanctions were placed and against the terms of those sanctions.
3-the UN has a deplorable record in enforcing it's sanctions as you have stated many times so why would they expect Saddam to comply?
4-the weaponry used by Iraq in this current condition clearly are in violation of UN orders.

"Brush off? 25 years of opression, a life expectancy of under 40 years, a literacy rate of less than 15% for women (and those women who can read are at risk of being beaten to death because of it). "brush off"?"

Yes, Europe has brushed this off, just as perhpas the US did so there is another reason why Europe is "wrong"--they are in no place to judge since they are guilty of the same thing. It is interesting how the "world community" all of a sudden becomes "enraged"; what convenient timing. Yeah sure

"I have never indicated that America stands alone in the blame, my own country shares a lot of shame for actions that have occured in the world in the past."

However, you never seem to post it in the same breath, now do you?  Yeah sure...

"Remember what happened to the last superpower who tried to do that?"

Oh, I do--and there is NO comarison....

"That's quite an offensive accusation and one that you have no proof over. Why is it that you guys are so quick to accuse other countries of atrocities and so quick to vilify those of us who point out that people in glass houses really shouldn't throw stones? Indonesia, for all it's faults, has been nothing but helpful in this war on terror, particularly working with the west on the bombing in Bali and their reward for making an effort? Being accused by people like you."

My accusations are no worse than the ones leveled against the US here, icluding some of the accusations you make here aghainst the US. , of which a majority are baseless as well. Indonesia has been the last to sign on to any treaties regarding terrorism and money launbering, have done little to route groups such as Abu Sayaff from it's borders (who are in the process of destabilizing the Phillipines) among otherthings--asside fromn the accusatory rhetoric from it's leaders after 9/11. :

"Indonesia presents special challenges, it was widely agreed. The country seems to have both less skill and less will to combat terrorism within its borders. While the terrorist connections in Indonesia may be loose ones, there is a concern that the country is serving as a de-facto sanctuary to terrorists fleeing Pakistan and Afghanistan. Yet Indonesia is a moderate Islamic nation, and the Bush administration has great support and respect for its democratization and multicultural society. "

from : http://www.csis.org/pacfor/issues/v02n02_sum.htm
http://www.aiccusa.org/outlookdecember2001/events.htm
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2001/html/10238.htm
http://travel.state.gov/indonesia_warning.html
http://travel.state.gov/indonesia_warning.html

It appears that they have only now capitualted to the terrorist threats operating within their borders, and then only after the tragedy at Bali. Indonesia is amoderate country with a democracy, but inability in reigning in radical Islamicism operatives and is still unfortunately a safe haven.

Saudi Arabia and it's funding of Taliban run, Madrassas which act as indoctination academies for alQuaida is well documented, and a majority of the 9/11 operatives were from SA as is Osama, who's own wealth is derived from operations (construction companies et al) within SA are also documented. These are clear examples of the hypocrisy and of how much the Saudis are willing to fund and export terror and Wahabism while protecting themselves.

I suggest you substantiate this baseless accusation: "Because in Afghanistan the US totally ignored them and the pleas of international do gooders and the fact that Afghanistan was one of the leading suppliers of drugs and only took notice when it was found that OBL was hiding there" since our DEA, FBI etc etc were well aware of the drugs and drug running and were involved in efforts to stop it. Secondly, not only were the US huge consumers of Drugs from Afghanistan, so are Europe--again exemplifying their hypocratic inaction.
 
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RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:31 am

Secondly, not only were the US huge consumers of Drugs from Afghanistan, so are Europe--again exemplifying their hypocratic inaction.

It's irrelevant to my point. I wasn't singling out America because they use the drugs, I was singling them out because they used the country. Big difference and I suggest you learn what the differences is.

The thing so obvious in many people in these forums is their absolute lack of understanding of the concept of responsibility. Not since the kindergarten playground has blame been applied 100% to any one person. Indeed even there when the teachers intervened the whole story was ascertained prior to making a judgement call on who is right and who is wrong.

I suggest you think about that a little bit.

Post your statistics as far as who votes.

That was my understanding. If it is inaccurate please feel free to clear it up.

And it is BS, because the government is a reflection of those who vote.

Yes it is .. but in the case of a country where voting is not compulsory it is likely that the Government is not a view of the people. So whilst that may be irrelevant, it's also inaccurate to claim that they are.

As far as "bowing down"--that is a matter of perception.

Yeah, depends on which side of the border you live....

It appears to most of the US bashers here, that any time their government atgrees with the US on something, it is evil, cowtowing etc etc.

Really? would YOU care to provide proof of THAT statement? Seems to me I make my decisions on what my government does based upon whether I agree or not, not by whether it's got anything to do with America or not.

a tiresome statement

so many tiresome statements, so little bandwidth....

--especially in light of how Tony Blair convinvced our government to change and compromise a bit and we did. We don't ask for 100%, never did.

The reference was to the users of this forum, not the governments. The users of this forum I'm talking about *generally* make up a select group of kids. Who see the world through young eyes and who really haven't spent much time, if any, outside the borders of their own country.

That is a miscoception again, of anti-USbaters/bashers. Bitter, no. Rude--only playing the cards that are dealt on this forum :-i.

I'm not even sure what you mean by that .. but then .. as one so labelled I can guarantee you that you will find no reference to me calling anyone the "Bitch of Bagdad(Thumper)", "Aussie Bitch(Alpha1)", "Aussie Priss(Alpha1)", "Sick Fuck(no idea)". So i'd suggest that you'll perhaps want to rethink your theory of rude.

I admit that there are at least 2 people within these forums that I feel are anti-American (no names, but i'm sure you know). But go look at all the anti-French statement, not statements disagreeing with the French stand, but who make abusive and insulting comments about the country. Far more than 2.

So again i'd suggest there is a pot on the phone currently dialling a kettle to call it black.





ADG
 
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RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:49 am

"It's irrelevant to my point. I wasn't singling out America because they use the drugs, I was singling them out because they used the country. Big difference and I suggest you learn what the differences is."

NO, Adg, it is every part of the point--if Europe is a consumer, using the goods, then they are "users" as well. Don't be selective to suit your needs. I know there is NO difference in this issue.


"The thing so obvious in many people in these forums is their absolute lack of understanding of the concept of responsibility. Not since the kindergarten playground has blame been applied 100% to any one person. Indeed even there when the teachers intervened the whole story was ascertained prior to making a judgement call on who is right and who is wrong.

I suggest you think about that a little bit"

Actually, the thing that is shocking on these boards is tha ability of many users to realize that there is more to the truth than what they may want to hear and an apalling lack of tolerance for anything that contraveines their point of view. As far as 100%, many do a good job of laying blame solely on the US for many things. Take the statement about Afghanistan and drugs for instance. Lay blame where blame is needed. In Afghanistan for example, blame is to be layed all over and in varying percentages. Sure the US has complicity in Afghanistan, but so does Europe, a major part since they are complicit in their complete ignoring of the problem as well--lay some blame on the UN as well--since thet are supposedly the world boody that monitors struggling countries; selective blame mongering and selective ignorance of facts are intemperate as well.

"Yes it is .. but in the case of a country where voting is not compulsory it is likely that the Government is not a view of the people. So whilst that may be irrelevant, it's also inaccurate to claim that they are."

Yes, ADG, voting is NOT compulsory here. We are not the facist police state so many of the ethnocentric Europeans-etc. make us out to be. Secondly, voting is a right for a citizen to participate in if they wish--and if they don't participate, they should be aware of the consequences. It is pointless for some people to complain about a government to which they did not participate in the election that elected it. Secondly, leaders are elected to make decsisions, including ones which may or not be popular, and governments that waver with varying "public opinion" are doomed to fail because there will never be a consitent concensus. Our leaders here do listen to public opionion, but only in assisting it in making decisons along with many other considerations which include more than casual passing fancies. that is the way the government here works.


"Really? would YOU care to provide proof of THAT statement? Seems to me I make my decisions on what my government does based upon whether I agree or not, not by whether it's got anything to do with America or not"

ADG, I also make my decsisons on what my government makes as well and I disagree with many many things they do, including this "war", its complete failure of an economic policy and its apalling lack securing it's own borders and people...However, I will not blame them for everything in the world because that isn't true--like so many of the "younger set" here do.

"Yeah, depends on which side of the border you live...."

and degree of hostility against the US perhaps...

"The reference was to the users of this forum, not the governments. The users of this forum I'm talking about *generally* make up a select group of kids. Who see the world through young eyes and who really haven't spent much time, if any, outside the borders of their own country."

Speak for yourself. As for me I was a mamber of Pan Am's million mile club and I have lived/worked in Hong Kong, Singapore, Taipei, Kyoto, London, Hannover and Geneva amongst other places. However, I do a gree with your point about the 14 year old armchair generals who have no clue.


"I'm not even sure what you mean by that .. but then .. as one so labelled I can guarantee you that you will find no reference to me calling anyone the "Bitch of Bagdad(Thumper)", "Aussie Bitch(Alpha1)", "Aussie Priss(Alpha1)", "Sick Fuck(no idea)". So i'd suggest that you'll perhaps want to rethink your theory of rude"

ADG, I want to get one thing straight. I NEVER, ever would use those types of pajoratives in adressing another member here--those types of comments disgust me and are inappropriate. Secondly, you and I have varying points of view and disagreement but we remain civil with each other for the most part; even with the sacrcastic jibes we make. Though we disagree "viloently"  Smile on many, many things I do repspect your opinions and enjoy our debates and I try to take the time to respind to them as best as I can.... I also think that we may be more alike than either one of us would like to admit....(as far as how deep our convictions are and that what makes for energetic, and sometimes heated yet rewarding debate.)











 
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RE: To All Of You Anit-war "American's"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 4:58 am

NO, Adg, it is every part of the point--if Europe is a consumer, using the goods, then they are "users" as well. Don't be selective to suit your needs. I know there is NO difference in this issue.

As usual, another that misses the point ... my crime is not as bad because they do it to ... I absolutely disagree.

Actually, the thing that is shocking on these boards is tha ability of many users to realize that there is more to the truth than what they may want to hear and an apalling lack of tolerance for anything that contraveines their point of view.

That's a funny statement coming from you, but accurate enough.

As far as 100%, many do a good job of laying blame solely on the US for many things.

I know of few people who do that but I do know many people who accuse others of doing so simply because (a) they are blind to the faults of the US or (b) they're really not thinking about the issues.

Take the statement about Afghanistan and drugs for instance. Lay blame where blame is needed.

Of course

In Afghanistan for example, blame is to be layed all over and in varying percentages. Sure the US has complicity in Afghanistan, but so does Europe, a major part since they are complicit in their complete ignoring of the problem as well

Europe wasn't in a position to do much really were they? Other than fighting to stop the drug imports what do you suggest they do? It's like telling Australia that they should have done something. We did, we raised the level of knowledge of the issue as best we could, it was ignored.

--lay some blame on the UN as well--since thet are supposedly the world boody that monitors struggling countries; selective blame mongering and selective ignorance of facts are intemperate as well.

boody?  Laugh out loud ... but yes, that is another place to lay blame .. they were well aware of the issues in Afghanistan.

Yes, ADG, voting is NOT compulsory here. We are not the facist police state so many of the ethnocentric Europeans-etc. make us out to be.

I'm not sure how you tie those 2 issues together. Compulsory voting gives you a better representation of the views of the country, not just those with a political conscience. Every member of the parliament in Canberra has over 50% of the actual vote (after preferences are given out).

Secondly, voting is a right for a citizen to participate in if they wish--and if they don't participate, they should be aware of the consequences.

Understood, but it also results in representation that is not necessarily indicative of the views of the majority. The non voters fault but it's still a fact and the Government should be claiming to know what the majority feel as they really don't know do they?

It is pointless for some people to complain about a government to which they did not participate in the election that elected it.

Agreed. But it's pointless for the Government to say they represente the majority of the people, in reality they represent the views of those who voted.

Secondly, leaders are elected to make decsisions, including ones which may or not be popular, and governments that waver with varying "public opinion" are doomed to fail because there will never be a consitent concensus.

Actually, they're elected to represent the opinions of the people. Majority rule in a democrasy.

Our leaders here do listen to public opionion, but only in assisting it in making decisons along with many other considerations which include more than casual passing fancies. that is the way the government here works.

Others would not be so quick to agree with you. In fact our Government is a classic example, it does NOT represent the views of the majority in sending our troops to Iraq, but it did it anyway.

ADG, I also make my decsisons on what my government makes as well and I disagree with many many things they do, including this "war", its complete failure of an economic policy and its apalling lack securing it's own borders and people...However, I will not blame them for everything in the world because that isn't true--like so many of the "younger set" here do.

So you admit your statement was incorrect?

and degree of hostility against the US perhaps...

I wouldn't know, I don't have any hostility towards the US except in the minds of a few ignorant people who'd rather throw accusations than facts.

Speak for yourself. As for me I was a mamber of Pan Am's million mile club and I have lived/worked in Hong Kong, Singapore, Taipei, Kyoto, London, Hannover and Geneva amongst other places. However, I do a gree with your point about the 14 year old armchair generals who have no clue.

Well we all see them in here don't we. (from the US AND other countries).

Though we disagree "viloently" on many, many things I do repspect your opinions and enjoy our debates and I try to take the time to respind to them as best as I can....

and you spell as well as I do  Laugh out loud

I also think that we may be more alike than either one of us would like to admit....(as far as how deep our convictions are and that what makes for energetic, and sometimes heated yet rewarding debate.)

OH NO! Not another one  Laugh out loud!!!



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