radarbeam
Posts: 998
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:00 am

This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:04 am


It has not even been a week that the war on Iraq started and there are already a lot of casualties on the coalition side. There has been 3 helicopter crashes, one Tornado down, several US POWs, one nutcase who throw a grenade to his colleages and several others US soldier killed in action. I can't recall a time in my (short) life where a war has taken so many friendly lives ... I know war is not childplay but this one has a tragic taste to it.

May those who died fighting for other people freedom RIP.
Radarbeam
 
ryanb741
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:06 am

War is ugly - I think Allied commanders expected reasonable losses but expected them mostly in the ground invasion of Baghdad, where I think even hundreds of Allied troops could be killed if Iraqi forces don't capitulate as hoped. Obviously I hope that isn't the case, but the way things are going you never know.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
HOMER71
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:08 am

Someone correct me is this is inaccurate, this is what I remember

Gulf War (1991) - About 100-150 allied troops killed, about 30-35 from "friendly fire"
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
AC320
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:10 am

I don't think the war is taking an ugly turn, more living up to its nature. It's not sugar-coated, it's not pleasant, it screws up people, messes with their minds, propert and lives are destroyed. All we can hope for is the the war will somehow contribute to the greater good, that after its over the world can be a better place. Such is the irony of the human experience.
fuddle duddle
 
radarbeam
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:13 am

Homer,

I got these numbers from USA today...


The 1991 Gulf War's toll
U.S. troops killed: 79 in action, 54 in non-combat

U.S. troops wounded: 213

U.S. airmen listed as POWs: 9

U.S. troops missing in action: 37

Allied troops killed: 44 in combat

Allied air missions flown: 106,000+

U.S. planes lost in combat: 27

Allied planes lost: 9

Iraqi aircraft destroyed: 141

Iraqi planes that fled to Iran: 137

Iraqi tanks destroyed: 3,080

Estimated Iraqi casualties: More than 85,000 killed and wounded

Iraqi ships sunk, damaged: 73

Iraqi POWs held by allies: 80,000

U.S. troops in Persian Gulf: 537,000+

Estimated cost of Gulf War to allies: $45 billion


 
ryanb741
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:14 am

I would like to add that in terms of military objectives, the war is proceeding as planned. But there are no illusions that the most difficult phase will be the invasion of Baghdad. It will have to be done district by district - we can't expect to simply waltz in there and grab Saddam
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
EGGD
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:15 am

Weren't there millions of people killed in WWII???

Anyway... I think its quite sad with all the technology and highly trained soldiers that we have so many 'friendly fire' incidents. I was watching the lunchtime news last week and they interviewed a couple of US soldiers. Highly trained they were not, I got the general feeling of 'hi, we're here to kill Iraqi's!!' from alot of them, they didn't have much to say but that... One soldier, 18 years old, when asked if he was scared 'no not really, I trust this gun'. What does that tell you about him???
 
ryanb741
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:19 am

To be fair though EGGD, regular troops aren't noted for their amazing intelligence and comprehension of modern technological achievements - it is more the case of 'press this button and you will be alright'. Rather, they are well trained and drilled to react in combat situations with their training, to demonstrate courage and commitment. Very few combatants probably understand exactly how the technology works.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
HOMER71
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:24 am

Thanks for the info, Radarbeam

This conflict doesn't seem to be as severe as the first Gulf War (by stats, anyways), although any armed conflict is messy

And there's still Baghdad to deal with...
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
GDB
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 4:41 am

What is getting ugly are reports that Republican Guard and other 'loyal' units are donning civilian clothes to fight, and even using civilians as human shields, also faking surrender and taking shots at US/UK personnel when the opportunity arises.
 
b757300
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 4:42 am

Lets see now. Iraqi troops have been pretending to surrender so they could get it close and ambush U.S. troops. Reminds me of WWII in the Pacific when the Japanese regularly used this tactic. The end result was that Japanese troops that were trying to surrender were usually shot before they could get close enough to U.S. troops and inflict casualties.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
CMK10
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 5:14 am

What did you expect? A romp in the blasted Garden of Eden? We are winning by infinent amounts, and that is what really counts.
DC-10's Forever
"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton
 
GDB
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:23 am

Reminds me of a notorious incident in the Falklands, when some Argentine officers waved the white flag then shot some British Paratroopers.
The result? Probably of a lot of Argentines really surrendering got killed after this.
(I shudder to think if in that war, they had light modern cameras with night vision as they do now, imagine the reaction of many to images of close in fighting with guns, grenades and bayonets).
 
voodoo
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:25 am

The subesequent fake surrender effect, i.e. no longer believed genuine, is possibly what was intended by whatever group did it.
Now Iraqi regulars will `have' to fight rather than surrender because they will think/know that they will be shot if they surrender.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
daedaeg
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:36 am

War aint pretty people!!! My heart goes out to all those fallen soldiers and POWs.
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
jaysit
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:54 am

War isn't pretty.

Our poor boys. I know they're professional soldiers and that they are paid to fight wars. I know that Iraqi casualties are probably heavy, but at times like this I can be parochial in my concern. This is what American TV is not showing - our poor dead slaughtered soldiers. They deserved better - from our politicians who should have - and could have - avoided this war, and who should have had the patience to seek other alternatives to this carnage.

http://www.aljazeera.net/news/arabic/2003/3/3-23-23.htm
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:15 am

You ain't seen nothing yet, wait till the coalition reaches Baghdad, it's here that the bloodshed will take place. *scary*

In Arsene we trust!!
 
TWAL1011
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:08 am

Let me express my sincere regret and sadness over the loss of those two British airmen. Seeing that (apparent) footage brought back terrible memories from 2/1. I am extremely grateful to have Britian as an ally. I'm so sorry this happened.

A truly saddened TWAL1011.
 
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STT757
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:30 am

People got too used to Kosovo and Afghanistan style "clean" victories, the first Gulf War was more severe.

However this one (unfortunately) has the potential to get ugly.

The first Gulf War was started with a week or two of massive aerial bombardment, this war was started with a quick strike then ground warfare.

I think after the POW incidents and Sunday's heavy fighting the gloves are going to come off the air campaign, meaning massive B-52 carpet bombing outside Baghdad in the North and to the South of Baghdad. Followed by low level strikes mostly by RAF Tornados , USAF A-10s, F-15Es.

Also more dramatic B-2 2,000 lb JDAM strikes on Baghdad, nightly.

UK/US Marine Aircraft like the Harriers and F-18s are going to be flying close air support missions in the South, plowing the road to Baghdad.

US/UK and Australian forces have hit heavy resistance but are still plowing foward, they are less than 100 miles from Baghdad and will probably be at Bagdad's doorstep by Tuesday.

That's where the US Army's Mechanized divisions are heading , it's been the US and UK Marines so far in the heavy battles in the South. The US Army's heavy mechanized divisions have been racing through the Western Desert , they are by passing the Southern Iraqi units and are heading straight for Baghdad.

That's where they will engage the Iraqi Republican Guard, the US and Royal Marines should get there by middle of next week to Flank the Republican Guard and squeeze them into the US Army's M1-A1s path.

Also the 101st Airborne Division still is in Kuwait, they are definitely going to be in the fight soon. Most likely Air dropped in Northern Iraqi via one of those Western Iraqi Airfields the allies have already seized.

Hopefully as the Allies approach Baghdad those talks with the Republican Guard units about surrendering will happen before the battle begins.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
MD-90
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:31 am

Cmk10, actually I've heard it said that the Garden of Eden probably was somewhere in Iraq, between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. It sort of could be a romp in the Garden.

However, you're definately right about this being no cakewalk.
 
727LOVER
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:37 am

Ummm...so it's only ugly if ALLIED troops are killed???? Was Hiroshima ugly?
Dude....it was UGLY from the first shot!!
Love Trumps Hate
 
airplay
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:25 am

Yep. This has been ugly from the start. But you have to consider the "faces" of the war.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/europe/images/18-blair-p18035-10-pm-web-398h.jpg
 
delta-flyer
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:36 am

One of the reasons for the unexpectedly high coalition casualties is the effort expended to save civilians. It is nice to see, though, that the military leadership is calling the shots, not the White House. This assures that adjustments to strategy can be implemented quickly and effectively.

Airplay, your comment is disgusting.

727Lover, we are talking about Iraq, year 2003.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
airplay
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:48 am

One of the reasons for the unexpectedly high coalition casualties is the effort expended to save civilians.

Delta, your comments are ridiculous. You're saying that the incidence of friendly fire and coalition casualties increases with the amount of care the aggressors take in protecting the innocent. Where is the logic in that? This sort of thing is a sign of what most people know already. The US military is not the superior force when it comes to ground attack. They've proven this in several military conflicts.

They go in with incredible arrogance and high expections that the enemy will just roll over and die.

They excel in the high tech high altitude stuff but need overwhelming tactical advantage to win a ground war. The four recent friendly fire Canadian casualties in Afghanistan really exposed a great lack of discipline that increases the frequency of these incidents.

So..be disgusted if you want but give your head a shake...



 
Alpha 1
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:54 am

The US military is not the superior force when it comes to ground attack. They've proven this in several military conflicts.

SAY WHAT?? You're joking, right, Airplay. What were YOU watching during the First Gulf War, when it too 100 HOURS of ground action to end the conflict? What do you call a ground force, that in less than 3 days in theater, is a days march from the main objective? Inferior?

And you have the nerve to post on these fourms about the U.S. military? ROTFLMAO. Oh, you're killing me Airplay!  Laugh out loud
 
david b.
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:56 am

I think he means a street fight a la Somalia.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
artsyman
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:01 pm

Last night when I was watching the ground battle live in CNN (surreal I know), they spent about 3 hours with a tank shooting a building until the Iraqi generals eventually surrendered. I am wondering why they spent so long on this, and didnt just call for air support to vapourise the building ?

Jeremy
 
airplay
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:04 pm

Alpha1,

Yes. They had a great ground fight...AFTER several weeks of bombing to "soften up" the enemy. Don't you remember all the reluctance and incertainty of the allied troops to begin a ground assault during that conflict?

You might also want to ask some 'Nam vets about how they did on the ground.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:53 pm


May those who died fighting for other people freedom RIP.


RIP, allright? but leave out the "fighting for other peoples freedom" bit. We all know what this war is about.

War is an ungly business, but this isnt any ordinary war. Here you have Anglo-American mercenaries invading another country and violating its sovereignty and that too WITHOUT international approval.

These mercenaries dont deserve any sympathy. They are fighting a war that has no justification and for the benefit of a bandit int he White House. They deserve what they are getting, being drawn into street fights and butchered/captured en-masse.

-Roy
 
JetService
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:03 pm

Indianguy, there's no need to respond to you as your words are almost verbatim as the Iraqi Communications Minister. That speaks for itself.
"Shaddap you!"
 
TWAL1011
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:17 pm

Like the doctor said when Roy was born, "This thing could get ugly".  Big grin
 
IndianGuy
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:25 pm


there's no need to respond to you as your words are almost verbatim as the Iraqi Communications Minister. That speaks for itself.

Right now, The IRaqi communications minister carries a lot more credibility than hte pathetic Goebellsian show your countrys leaders are putting up. Nuff said.

you havent countered a single thing i said.

These are mercenaries who have gone in to loot and plunder without international approval. If you didnt need international approval to go in why do you expect international sympathy now? These mercenaries deserve every bullet that is fired at them. They do not deserve any sympathy, becyase they have a choice: To refuse to take orders from Bush. Knowing the consequences they have implemented the orders, so they deserve what they are getting. Every single bullet.

-Roy
 
N79969
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:47 pm

Roy,

You are a sick person. Get help.
 
Guest

RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:10 pm

En,

Don't worry about Roy. Facts are a strange thing to him. He's not to be payed attention to.

'Speed
 
artsyman
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:19 pm

These are mercenaries who have gone in to loot and plunder without international approval
********************************

and these are facts ? looting ? plundering ?... have you been watching AL Jazzeera again ?
 
IndianGuy
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:08 pm


have you been watching AL Jazzeera again ?

Nope. But even that would be better than the trash shown on CNN? What was that bit about tariq Aziz being assasinated or whatever?

Right now it is The CNN which is being manipulated by that war-mongering Bush.

-Roy
 
Amir
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:13 pm

Hi Artsyman:

you mentioned Al Jazeera. I do presume that you speak arabic and you can give your personal opinion about this station?


Rgds
Amir
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:15 pm

@Amir:No he cant. He' just another of those KKK brand ultra-rightwing extremists who frequent this board.

Hurling abuse at Europeans, Indians, Arabs and anyone else who corners them on anything is their favorite pastime.

These guys should be airddropped to fight the war on Iraq that they so desparately crave.

-Roy
 
L-188
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:29 pm

And what are you Roy?

An ignorant prick from the third world, who choses to blame his problems and those of his country on others, who on this site has cheered at terrorism, cast dispersions at those who work for a living.

You have a closed mind. You are not open to the ideas of those in other countries, you don't accept others opinions. You don't see past the hatred that is in your own head.

I pity you.

[Edited 2003-03-24 11:30:42]
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
GDB
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:32 pm

While I agree that many far right types have posted nonsense, Indianguy is no better.
In fact his logic is the same as that Bhose character in the 1940's, supporting Germany and Japan as they were anti-British, nevermind the vile, genocidal nature of those regimes.
Same logic with you and Saddam.
 
Guest

RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:15 pm

One of the reasons for the unexpectedly high coalition casualties is the effort expended to save civilians. It is nice to see, though, that the military leadership is calling the shots, not the White House.


Can you explain what you mean by this? Seems to me the higher casualties are from (a) errors and (b) the fact that they are moving into the area of Iraq that is controlled by Hussein and nothing more.





ADG
 
IndianGuy
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:16 pm

I will ignore L-188's hysterical behaviour.

Terrorism? Depends on how you define it. Are American "Special Operations Groups" setting off bomb explosions targetted at top Iraqi officials not terrorism? Then I think Iraqi SOG's also have the right to send SOG's to set off bomb explosions in every American city. in war, you would want to put your enemy on the defensive. You have to take the war on his soil and strike at a time and place of your choosing. America is doing it, it isnt terrorism. Why cant Iraq do it?

GDB: This goes far beyond Saddam. The Iraqi people have a right to defend themselves.

I am no fan of Subhash Bose so I dont understand why you choose to bring him up.

The Americans have themselves supported quite a few dictators themselves (and continue to do so). So stop this rant about "evil dictatorship" and all zat. He has been doing it all along. As long as he acted for you he was your best pal, and Rumsfeld was shaking hands with Saddam. The moment he turned on you he becomes vile bastard!

Spare me the histrionics!

The American's have no business meddling in an already volatile region. The "soldiers" who have invaded Iraq and violated its sovereignty are mercenaries and deserve to be treated as such. If they still choose to do so, they must be prepared to take casualties.

-Roy
 
L-188
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:20 pm

Iraqi SOG's

You aren't thinking about those terrorists that hold in so high esteem Roy.





OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:24 pm

American SOG's setting off bombs in downtown Baghdad are "soldiers" fighting for freedom. Iraqi SOG's setting off bombs in Umm let says New York or Los angeles are Terrorists?

Aaah! So much for logic!

-Roy
 
L-188
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:25 pm

Oh ADG.

What he means by that is that there are reports that Iraqi Special Republican guard are wearing civilian garb to move into firing positions to shoot at our guys. Since our guys are under orders not to fire at civilians they have free range until they pop a round off at our guys.


I was concerned about this order when it was first reported about a week before we went in. The British had some nasty experiences in Holland with a similar order since they where trying to save as much of the country as possible during WWII. Unfortunately it gave the German Army a lot of wiggle room.

And wiggle room is something that you want to avoid giving an opponent
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:30 pm

Roy,

Do you consider a terrorist working for Saddam a Iraqi SOG???
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:41 pm

L-188,

What is reported in the media and what occurs in the middle east are 2 distincly different things. There is no "no fire" order and your military don't need to be fired upon before firing first.

The fact remains that your military have now moved into areas of Iraq that are "controlled" by Hussein whereas before they were in areas where they dislike Hussein.

I get the impression that some Americans thought the road to bagdad would be lined in rose petals and iraqis kissing American boots which is why they are so annoyed now when the realities of war are finally coming home.

and you know what .. the footage they showed us of the American POW's was no worse than we've seen out of the American media (having said that, the footage of dead soldiers is NOT being shown here).





ADG
 
atenara
Posts: 92
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RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:49 pm


War is War! although it seems as though its not working right for the Americans, but The U.S. is the only remaining superpower in the world in terms of military strength and there will always be bright days to come as their are bad ones now.
 
Amir
Posts: 1224
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Dear Atenara

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:55 pm

Dear Atenara,
sorry i can't resist it:
your words sound exactly like Saddam's words trying to cheer-up his people.

Regards
Amir
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn

Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:57 pm

ADG....

There isn't a general "until fired upon" order. Don't twist what I said.

But they are prohibited from firing on civilians. So you have these Republican Guards in their dockers that are able to get close and shoot.

Frankly I thought the past couple days where too easy. And I don't agree with starting the Ground campaign right away. I think we should have sucked it up, ignored the rhetoric about civilian losses and mounted a much longer air bombardment campaign, much like the first time.

A unit that hasn't been supplied for a month because everytime they send out a convoy it gets nailed by an A-10 is a lot different then a unit that was getting supplied up until the day before.

We are fighting a much fresher enemy then before.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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