cfalk
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Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:06 am

CNN has been airing interviews with frustrated marines who are saying that Iraqis are hiding behind and shooting from civilians, and faking surrender in order to be able to move to new positions to shoot from while protected by the white flag, or to ambush coalition soldiers who come up to accept the surrender.

This is just as low as terrorism, and seeing past behavior, not surprising. A total lack of honor in combat, not to mention a war crime. What's wrong with the Arab world in that these tactics are so readily adopted?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:08 am

Hey. Come on. Americans are attacking them in their own country, which has never threatened America. Who is REALLY fighting without honour?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:08 am

What do they have to loose? Nothing! This is why I'm still a bit worried when the US will do their 'invasion' in Baghdad.

Who knows what he planns...

For the rest, they see this war as a warcrime. Why would they play it behaved and with honor?

Put you in their position, and try to understand their reactions... (before the usual bashing starts, this does not mean I agree with it).

/Frederic
 
cfalk
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:10 am

I see, so you are saying that violating the Geneva and Hague Conventions, and all rules of warfare is defendable if you are fighting on your own soil?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Ilyushin96M
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:11 am

This is ridiculous, Charles. You actually expect the Iraqi troops to line up like good little soldiers and be shot? They were known for dirty tactics during the Gulf War...to expect them to be any different 12 years later is completely naive.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:12 am

It´s win at any cost, on the Iraqi side, a Iraqi expat told Swedish media that the Baath party
officals seem nervous, using name-calling they never did during the Iran war.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
JetService
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:13 am

Cedarjet, Sabena, I don't care who was invading my country and why, I wouldn't hide behind one of my own civilians!!!!! I might do other things, but not that!
"Shaddap you!"
 
cfalk
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:15 am

Conduct of combatants in warfare is completely separate from the political and other rationale behind the war. These conventions do not say that their provisions are only valid if the war meets certain conditions. They apply to all armed conflicts between sovereign nations.

Charles

[Edited 2003-03-24 19:15:53]
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:17 am

What's wrong with the Arab world in that these tactics are so readily adopted?

Come on, Charles. Its a two way street here. I mean I agree with you wholeheartedly, but even US Generals after World War II spoke with disgust on the coming technology of warfare...push button bombs, killing an enemy you can't see, no battlefield glory.

That said, the rules of combatants and non coms and the lines blurred among the locals is what destryoed much of our fighting capabilities in VietNam. This morning Tommy Franks spoke of "10 guys with RPGs on top of a building. Do you reduce the building to rubble, knowing it will cause civillian deaths?"

Well. Yeah. The word is 'war'. It's the ugliest of ugly human concepts. Once you've begun it, you either fight one enemy or two. The Iraqis alone. Or the Iraquis and your own morality.

I'd rather fight one.

 
Staffan
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:19 am

While they might benefit from it at the moment, they won't do it in the long run. They might not be so nicely met if they surrender a second time. Hiding behind civilians is also not very honorable.
To those who think this is ok, would you consider using your mother, sister or children as shields during a war? I certainly wouldn't.

Staffan
 
Sabena 690
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Re: Correction

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:25 am

Sorry guys, I had misread Charles his message (I hadn't understood that they use humans as shield).

It's indeed very cruel, and can not be defended.

But is this commonplace? It's of course again very nice of CNN to film this one time, and spread it out on their tv like it happens all the time.

CNN has never been a thrustful source!
 
go canada!
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:26 am

hiding behind civilains is wrong but its a great trcik because civilains are then killed and the iraqis can praded it and the anti war brigarde will go loopy.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
cfalk
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:36 am

CNN has never been a thrustful source!

I agree that reporter's claims are often inaccurate. But I heard these reports from the mouths of U.S. Army soldiers and Marines being interviewed on the front lines. They were clearly frustrated - their orders and own sense of honor prevents them from shouting "through" civilians or shooting people under a white flag, and keep getting the feeling that they had been had afterwards.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
erj190
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:44 am


Hey, American media is very reliable.

SCUDS where fired by Iraq.
(three days later turn out to be a lie)

CHEMICAL WEAPONS factory found
(a total hoax from a US TV station nobody is talking about that anymore because everybody knows it was a lie)

AMERICAN POW's executed
(known to be untrue without one single even tiny evidence)

AMERICANS took over UMM QASR
(known to be not true at least three times - Although this one is not the TV station's fault)

The list can go on.

But these are the "news" on the american media. The latest editions of American newspapers and TV news, are based on the so-called news that are actually lies.

At the same time we have seen ridiculous images of a US helicopter shot down by Iraqi farmers. Who do the Iraqis want to convince? Maybe they want to convince the farmers.

How can an Helicopter, which is armored and protected be shot down, and show no traces of fire. At least the American propaganda tries to be convincing (although clearly failing) the Iraqis don't even try to be convincing.


shameful


Being part of the "attackers", I must praise again the BBC and even SKY news for their excellent coverage. We can't believe in the Iraqi TV, we must have doubts about Al Jazeera TV and Dubai TV, we must have doubts about CNN, NBC CBS and the likes. The only credible news comes from the BBC and from some European TV stations that can actually show us something unbiased.

In a war, the first victim is truth.
 
artsyman
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:53 am

SCUDS where fired by Iraq. (three days later turn out to be a lie)
***************************
At this point it hasnt been proven untrue

CHEMICAL WEAPONS factory found (a total hoax from a US TV station nobody is talking about that anymore because everybody knows it was a lie)
****************************************
This is still on more or less every worldwide western news broadcast, and is still under investigation

AMERICAN POW's executed (known to be untrue without one single even tiny evidence)
*******************************
Actually they do seem to have been executed

AMERICANS took over UMM QASR (known to be not true at least three times - Although this one is not the TV station's fault)
**********************************
As I am not there, this one I cant comment on, the impression I get is that they thought it was captured, but pockets of resistance emerged,

on the other hand....

Iraq says it shot down loads of planes Iraq says Israel shooting missiles into IraqIraq says that they are winningIraq says they have no chemicals , no weapons etc
For all you chemical naysayers, in 1998, the weapons inspectors knew that Saddam had these weapons, there is no documented proof at all, not one shred to suggest that they were destroyed, but, for arguments sake, let's assume that he just didnt keep records, WHY did he destroy them ? totally unprovoked, no weapons inspectors in the country and no reason at all to destroy them, why did he do it ?

Jeremy
 
jaysit
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 4:10 am

The old days of warfare where you sang "God Save the Queen" at sunrise after eating your army ration porridge and then charged at the opponent from the other side of a grassy knoll when the bugle sounded are over, me thinks.

Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
GC
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:08 am

Someone on Sky News made the point that if the coalition had operated using WW2 tactics of flattening the towns with heavy Armour and bursting thru to Baghdad, it would all be pretty much over. The fact is that the coalition are using militarily weak methods for the sole purpose of minimising civilian lives, the trade off is to costs more time and risks more military casualties on the coalition side.

The plain fact is the Iraqi military aren't quite as concerned with this and are unrestrained. Regardless of the politics, we need to acknowledge that our troops are operating with the utmost integrity and care, even though it puts them in more danger.
 
cfalk
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:21 am

That's absolutely right, Gc. The coalition forces are fighting literally with both hands tied behind their back for political reasons (which I agree with, by the way).

Nonetheless, they are now within 50 miles of Baghdad! I just pray that Saddam doesn't try to make it into a Stalingrad building-to-building grind.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:26 am

the concept of "honour" differs from culture to culture. I think Charles is saying that Iraq isn't fighting in the term of "honour" as he understands it.

However, having a father who was in Vietnam I could name at least another military that does not always "fight with honour" and I do not single that country out specificially. War is hell.

and I join those above who have no doubt that there is footage of American soldiers who appear to have been executed.





ADG
 
cedarjet
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:41 am

"[Geneva Convention does] not say that their provisions are only valid if the war meets certain conditions. They apply to all armed conflicts between sovereign nations."

So will someone please explain Camp X-ray and the treatment of it's guests?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
jaysit
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:07 am

Look, if we carpet bombed Iraq our credibility would be nil and we would win the battle but lose the war.

In the end it boils down to our superior weapons against their guerilla tactics. And we knew about this going into this war.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
User avatar
sebolino
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:13 am

Ridiculous !


Do you think the Iraqis will shoot and then stand on the road shouting: "Come on it's your turn, shoot on me".
Wake up Charles, that's called a war, that's not a video game or some duel. A WAR !!! The soldiers are trying to stay alive, that means to kill other soldiers before they get killed.
If you don't want to face that, you don't go to war.
 
racko
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:14 am

About the "good old times" of war (good times and war in one sentence don't fit):

During WW1, on a Christmas eve, British soldiers played football against German soldiers. After the match, they went back to their trenches and continued to fight against each others.

 
N79969
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:25 am

I think Charles is fully awake and alert. His outrage is justified.

If they are using civilians as shields, that is outside of the rules. And yes, even in war as chaotic as it is, you still don't use an infant or woman as a shield to save yourself. Think about it.

That they are dressing civilians is not surprising but still exposes the very people the Iraqi military is actually supposed to protect to danger. These 'soldiers' are not protecting their country or their countrymen but their own lives. You really cannot say they are defending their country, can you?

It's not like these guys are dressing like civilians and then slithering away to escape detection.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 8:40 am

I propose the US and UK refrain from using their airforces and stop aerial bombardments to make this a 'more equal' war.

Common' Charles, the US has broken numerous international treaties and conventions (including the Geneva Convention) over the past decades and now all of a sudden you want the Iraqi military, whose material is at least 12 years old and who have been attacked by the US/UK over these past 12 years continuously, you want them to defend themselves from the illegal invasion of their country in a fair way. It's ridiculous.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:02 am

The Australian Broadcasting Commission just broadcast the following statement:

"The American Government is in Shock and Awe that the Iraqis are using the same guerilla tactics used by the Americans in Vietnam".

Are they really fighting a war without honour?





ADG
(mind you, killing POW's is certainly an extremely dishonerable action)
 
L-188
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:14 am

And what tactics are those ADG???

I don't recall our guys dressing as civilians.

I don't recall our guys using civilians as human shields.


Is it sweeps weeks for Aussie Broadcasting company??
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
jaysit
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:17 am

I'm not sure how Americans could have dressed as Vietnamese civilians. Especially back in the Vietnam era.

Unless the Aussies were referring to using members of the South Vietnamese army to pass of as Viet Cong.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
airplay
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:24 am

I think many are missing the very important point that Iraq hasn't declared war on anyone. Threrefore, the Americans are being treated just like any unlawful invasion force.

Rules of war are only valid if you're at war. Would you be upset if the 9/11 terrorists were treated badly or if they were paraded around in contradiction to the Geneva convention? No. Because by definition that wasn't a war either.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 11:49 am

Let them fight with dishonor, as far as I'm concerned. It will only disgrace their leader, their nation, their race and their faith. And, in the end, it will cause a few more American casualties, but, still, in the end, they will lose. Better to die with some honor than to live in shame.

That's not to be callous about the American deaths, my friends. I have two family memebers in the area, and know full well it could, by the Grace of God, be them. It's that it doesn't shame the American or British Soldiers, it shames the Iraqi people; it shames the Arab race; it shames the Islamic faith.

Saddam's Iraq will lose, and some of those repsonsible for things like the execution of those soldiers, will face punishment. If some of the softer souls on here want to call that retribution, then call it that, but it will be deserved.

I honestly think those of you who have absolutely no problem with this disgrace feel that way simply because it's Americans that are being killed and humiliated. So much for your own concern for humanity.
 
L-188
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 11:53 am

I think that next week after my vacation I will bring up where the generals screwed up, after the situation has stablized.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
airplay
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:04 pm

Saddam's Iraq will lose, and some of those repsonsible for things like the execution of those soldiers, will face punishment.

Ask the families of those dead US soldiers "who lost". You may or may not be surprised to learn that as far as they are concerned the US lost already.

If you want to punish those responsible, you might want to look to Bush. A few days ago all those soldiers were alive and Iraq was showing no immediate threat.

Alpha1, never before have I been so opposed to American foreign policy as I am now. Before this whole conflict, I would have been proud to fight along side the US. I would defend your country as I would mine. But now, it is Mr. Bush who has humiliated Americans by entering an illegal war and condemning so many young soldiers to injury and death.

You comments about the so-called "arab race" and Islamic faith are pretty offensive too. Do you not realize that the US is composed of several diverse and distinct cultures that include islamic faithful and persons of arabic descent? What makes you think the average Isamic arab is aligned with Saddam? Did David Koresh disgrace the millions of Christian faithful in the US? Of course not. Typical American Christians didn't align themselves with HIM either.

I honestly think those of you who have absolutely no problem with this disgrace feel that way simply because it's Americans that are being killed and humiliated. So much for your own concern for humanity.

I don't think anyone here wants to see anyone dead. And I certainly do not wish harm to Americans who I still consider friends. However, what the heck did you expect to see when the US invaded Iraq?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:23 pm

Airplay, this isn't about how the war started; it's about the brutal execution of American soldiers. Obviously that doesn't bother you one iota. It bothers me, but all things equal out, and many of those perpertrating such atrocites will be punished, whether you like it or not.

You comments about the so-called "arab race" and Islamic faith are pretty offensive too.

Ah, it's offensive to say that, but there's NOTHING offensive about them executing our soldiers, or parading them around on TV.

You've got your sensibilities really screwed up, Airplay.

Do you not realize that the US is composed of several diverse and distinct cultures that include islamic faithful and persons of arabic descent?

Yes. One of them of one particular faith just tried to blow up his fellow soldiers, and killed one of them. You were saying about saying something offensive about that faith?

As for you saying you would have fought with Americans-you can stick it. If you changed your mind because of one man, I don't believe you for a second. I wouldn't want you on our side.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:29 pm

Alpha1, I see that you're starting to have trouble controlling your rage. I understand why. This whole thing must be confusing and frustrating for you.

Yes. One of them of one particular faith just tried to blow up his fellow soldiers, and killed one of them. You were saying about saying something offensive about that faith?

Yes. He looked black too. I'm sure the average black man has no quarral with the American people.....





 
Thumper
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:42 pm

Schoenorama:

Common' Charles, the US has broken numerous international treaties and conventions (including the Geneva Convention) over the past decades and now all of a sudden you want the Iraqi military, whose material is at least 12 years old and who have been attacked by the US/UK over these past 12 years continuously, you want them to defend themselves from the illegal invasion of their country in a fair way. It's ridiculous.:
That's because you have the same mentality as the Iraqi.The U.S. doesn't hide behind women and children as you would.
Charles you are absolutely right if you look at the ones disagreeing with you they are all American haters whither they are from Spain,Canada,or Australia. And how about a Frenchman telling anybody how to fight a war!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:56 pm

Airplay, no rage here, really. Despite the fact I did not want this war to start, I'm behind our troops, and am confident they'll be victorious. I just would not associate myself with people like you, or Indianguy, or Sabena690. I may not agree with Bush, but I wouldn't give a wooden nickle to what the world would be like if people like you were in charge of it.
 
jaysit
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:05 pm

Aren't you guys confusing the issues here? Its one thing to engage in guerilla warfare in the defense of your country (however reprehensible its regime may be to the rest of the world) and quite another to wilfully murder POWs who in essence were merely doing their jobs. Yes, the US is an invading alien force, but if we engaged in gangster-style executions of captured Iraqi POWs we'd never hear the end of it.

Some news reports did earlier state that the murders were the acts of mercenaries or paramilitary forces, but I have not heard anything to that effect in later news reports.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 4:10 pm

I don't recall our guys dressing as civilians.

I notice your age bracket puts you younger than me and as I was born when my father was in Vietnam I think I can suggest quite categorically that you weren't there and therefore are not in a position to be able to "recall" anything specific about the war.

I don't recall our guys using civilians as human shields.

See above

Is it sweeps weeks for Aussie Broadcasting company??

Nope, ABC is well known as the thinking mans radio station here in Australia. My father was in Vietnam and as with any conflict there was good and bad there, there was inappropriate behaviour. Indeed I remember reading that there were prosecutions of Americans after that conflict.

Certainly there is very little positive feedback from the Aussie VietVets that I know about the behaviour of some of the Americans. Indeed, i've heard some quite horrific stories .. (and yes, i've heard some very positive ones too). The issue here is that you are assuming that everyone behaves correctly, they don't. War is hell and it brings out the best in some and the worst in others.

Let them fight with dishonor, as far as I'm concerned. It will only disgrace their leader, their nation, their race and their faith. And, in the end, it will cause a few more American casualties, but, still, in the end, they will lose. Better to die with some honor than to live in shame.

Exactly. It's not how the enemy perform in a conflict, rather how YOU perform. Sad but a fact.

That's not to be callous about the American deaths, my friends. I have two family memebers in the area, and know full well it could, by the Grace of God, be them. It's that it doesn't shame the American or British Soldiers, it shames the Iraqi people; it shames the Arab race; it shames the Islamic faith.

I understand. But is it right to tar everyone because of the actions of a few? Do you blame those Iraqis who have laid down their weapons peacefully for the deaths of those soldiers? Do you blame those who are helping you in the war for the deaths of those soldiers? Because that's what it sounds like. Blame those who did it and anyone who supports the actions. They're the ones at fault.

Saddam's Iraq will lose, and some of those repsonsible for things like the execution of those soldiers, will face punishment. If some of the softer souls on here want to call that retribution, then call it that, but it will be deserved.

Alpha1: calling for their murder is retribution and wrong. Calling for them to answer for their crimes is appropriate.

I honestly think those of you who have absolutely no problem with this disgrace feel that way simply because it's Americans that are being killed and humiliated. So much for your own concern for humanity.

But some of us have a real problem with the actions but also a real problem with the hypocrisy of the whining that is going on. Indeed, looking at the pictures of the 5 prisoners i'm sickened by the sight. They are all so young :-(.

I don't think anyone here wants to see anyone dead. And I certainly do not wish harm to Americans who I still consider friends. However, what the heck did you expect to see when the US invaded Iraq?

I would expect both countries to abide by the Geneva Convention inasmuch as they have signed it. I notice there is no discussion as to why america is not a signatory to any changes since 1955. Why is that?

Airplay, you should condemn the deaths of the POW's. Even though you oppose the war you cannot blame the soldiers, they are simply doing their jobs. They can't pick and choose their wars. Blame Bush as I do, but not the military.

The U.S. doesn't hide behind women and children as you would.

You are wrong Thumper. That's one of the things that disturbed my father so much in Vietnam .. the use of HUMAN SHIELDS by the Americans. Not all Americans, not most Americans .. but it was done and he saw it .. it took him many years to get over the atrocities he saw in Vietnam, on BOTH sides.

So please don't be so fecking ignorant. ALL militaries have their "bad apples", even yours (and yes, even mine). But in this war at this time, the Iraqis have done a very bad thing and I condemn that as much as i'd condemn the action regardless of who did it. There can be no justification for what is effectively murder. The Americans have every right to be upset if the reports we are hearing are true.




ADG
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:03 pm

By the way, is there really *honour* in killing others?




ADG
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:03 pm

I have been thinking for the last day or so, that if the Iraqi forces continue to mix with the general civilian population in the major cities, then it is actually possible that America cannot win this war. If the Americans cannot attack the civilian areas for obvious reasons, yet the Iraqi forces can shoot at the Americans from the civilian areas, then there is an obvious problem emerging. If America starts to engage the civilian areas, and any relevent civilian casualties happen, then America will be screwed also.

I never thought this may happen, but it may

Jeremy
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:27 pm

Its guerilla warfare charles. Plain and Simple.

The Iraqi's are fighting a force that has overwhelming technical superiority. The only way for them to put up a good fight is to use guile and deception (and there has been plenty of that from Washington as well!), and tactics like the Iraqi;s have been showing.

A further step could involve setting up "Citizens Resistance Groups" headed by Republican Guards, similar to "Mohalla Comittees" in India which fought the British during our struggle for independence.

It should consist of local elements and these should draw the Anglo-American mercenaries into the cities and eliminated.

-Roy
 
cfalk
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RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:37 pm

Cedarjet,

So will someone please explain Camp X-ray and the treatment of it's guests?

As people have been saying for over a year, they are not POWs. They are detained criminals.

Here is Article 4 of the Geneva Convention on POWs:

Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.


Since Al Qaeda is not a country, and its policy includes methods which do not respect the laws and customs of war, Al Qaeda doesn’t even meet the requirement of section 6 of Article 4, which is the most lenient.

Sebolino,

Wake up Charles, that's called a war, that's not a video game or some duel. A WAR !!! The soldiers are trying to stay alive, that means to kill other soldiers before they get killed.
If you don't want to face that, you don't go to war.


Are you saying we should dump the Geneva Conventions and just go ahead and nuke Baghdad and can go home?

Remember that these rules are mainly intended to protect Iraqis in this case. This just shows how much Saddam and his followers care for their own people.

Schoenorama

Common' Charles, the US has broken numerous international treaties and conventions (including the Geneva Convention) over the past decades and now all of a sudden you want the Iraqi military, whose material is at least 12 years old and who have been attacked by the US/UK over these past 12 years continuously, you want them to defend themselves from the illegal invasion of their country in a fair way. It's ridiculous.

Saddam should have thought of the fact 12 years ago. No, 6 months ago. No, a week ago. In any case, Article 2 of the Geneva Convention says: the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

In other words, it applies to all armed conflict, regardless of how it came about. Iraq ratified this agreement in 1956, so they should be familiar with it.

Airplay, see my comments above. Just because Iraq has not declared war does not mean anything in terms of the requirement to obey the Geneva Conventions.

You comments about the so-called "arab race" and Islamic faith are pretty offensive too.

You have to admit that the seemingly widespread acceptance in the Arab world of such ruthless behavior, including the direct targeting of civilians, is very disturbing. This is widespread behavior, not isolated such as with David Koresh.

Its one thing to engage in guerilla warfare in the defense of your country (however reprehensible its regime may be to the rest of the world) and quite another to willfully murder POWs who in essence were merely doing their jobs.

Guerilla Warfare is perfectly legal. All it means is that you fight small skirmishes, “shoot and scoot”, hitting the enemy where they don’t expect it. That’s fine. But you are never allowed to use human shields or to fight from among civilian installations.

You should know that legally, anyone caught conducting a false surrender, or fighting illegally in civilian clothes, loses all protection under the Geneva convention. He can be shot upon capture. (of course the U.S. will rarely do that).

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:41 pm

For once Roy says something I agree with.

It is guerilla warfare. Plain and Simple.









Now I need to go outside and check on the alignment of the planets.

Roy and I agreeing,......who knew?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:47 pm

Wake up Charles, that's called a war, that's not a video game or some duel. A WAR !!! The soldiers are trying to stay alive, that means to kill other soldiers before they get killed. If you don't want to face that, you don't go to war.

It is guerilla warfare. Plain and Simple.
********************************

Would you be so understanding and accepting if the US troops decide the same thing and start carpet bombing Basra and Bagdad. If the only way to win for the US is to start blowing the civilian areas to bits....


 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:52 pm

Indianguy,

Why do you call the coalition soldiers "mercenaries"? Please explain.

mer·ce·nar·ies
1. One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling.
2. A professional soldier hired for service in a foreign army

Like I said, Guerilla tactics, guile and deception, etc are perfectly legal. But using human shields and making false surrenders are war crimes, under laws ratified by Iraq and virtually every country in the world.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:53 pm


Would you be so understanding and accepting if the US troops decide the same thing and start carpet bombing Basra and Bagdad. If the only way to win for the US is to start blowing the civilian areas to bits....

Yes! The Americans will do what they can and the Iraqi's will do what they can!

I doubt if carpet bombing is going to work though. It didnt work in Vietnam, and it wont work here! If anything, it will encourage Iraqi's even more and provide enough encouragement to the al-Qaeda types to launch a zillion 9/11's across America.

-Roy
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:00 pm

I doubt if carpet bombing is going to work though. It didnt work in Vietnam, and it wont work here!

Correction: The carpet bombing in Vietnam was mainly on the Ho Chi Minh trail, and basically killed a lot of trees. Carpet bombing Baghdad would leave virtually nothing left alive, particularly if incendiary bombs are used (they suck the oxygen right out of the air - people asphyxiate even if not burned).

But I agree, if they do that, it would make the Arab world turn even more radical.

If Saddam truly cared for his people, he would declare Baghdad an open city.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 9:39 pm

I notice your age bracket puts you younger than me and as I was born when my father was in Vietnam I think I can suggest quite categorically that you weren't there and therefore are not in a position to be able to "recall" anything specific about the war.

Well, ADG, I AM old enough to remember, and I do not recall EVER seeing our forces fighting in civilian duds, or pretending to surrender, or holding human shields in front of them when fighting.

Alpha1: calling for their murder is retribution and wrong. Calling for them to answer for their crimes is appropriate.

I do not call for their deaths, ADG. I call for them to be tried a war criminals. It's up to the tribunal to determine if they live or die, not me.

Indianguy,

Why do you call the coalition soldiers "mercenaries"? Please explain.


No explaination needed from him, Charles. It's very calculated, just like everything he types on here. He'd be a very good PR guy for a Dictator like Saddam Hussein. He says that because it's his way to say he things the US forces are just thugs, yet he extolls the virtue of the Iraqi's at the same time. He's not a hypocrite or anything. He firmly believes that, in all his delusions, and that's what's so sad about this contemptable individual.
 
Krushny
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 9:42 pm

Hey, American media is very reliable.

SCUDS where fired by Iraq.
(three days later turn out to be a lie)

CHEMICAL WEAPONS factory found
(a total hoax from a US TV station nobody is talking about that anymore because everybody knows it was a lie)

AMERICAN POW's executed
(known to be untrue without one single even tiny evidence)

AMERICANS took over UMM QASR
(known to be not true at least three times - Although this one is not the TV station's fault)

The list can go on.


These news remind me of the Argentinian press coverage of the Falklands (or Malvinas) war, and the Syrian coverage of the Yom Kippur war. When hearing Um Qasr news through the days, I remembered about a British aircraft carrier (Invincible?) which was sunk every day, according to the Argentinian Navy.
American friends, if I were you I would be very worried about the quality of your democracy, a free press which reports accurately what's going on is a necessary ingredient of that. Compare yourself to Israel, even if I do not approve many aspects of that country, you can get a good idea of what's happening there by reading Israeli media.

 
Krushny
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Iraqis Fighting Without Honor

Tue Mar 25, 2003 9:55 pm

SCUDS where fired by Iraq. (three days later turn out to be a lie)
***************************
At this point it hasnt been proven untrue


Great. Guilty until proven innocent. Another American who abhors the principles his great nation was built upon.

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