heavymetal
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At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:52 am

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29240-2003Mar25.html

Conservatives both in and out of the military during the "dont ask dont tell" Clinton years first happily ignored that directive, then found ways around it to discharge an ever increasing number of gay Americans serving in uniform.

The argument then was as it is now....gay servicepeople in close quarters with straight soldiers and sailors would negatively affect "unit cohesion".

Now the most conservative President in American history has taken us to war, and suddenly those discharges on the grounds of orientation have fallen off dramatically since the Clinton years. In fact, the military's "stop loss" doctrine trumps "don't ask don't tell".

My demand is very simple: It's clear that in times of need, the quality and expertise, the presence of gay Americans ready and willing to serve their country honorably trumps the awkwardness of what others think they may or may not be looking at in the showers. LET US AGREE that, by the grace of the Almighty, when peace returns soon, those same qualities and skills will not be tossed aside by the whims of bored officers and politicians, and the discharges crank up again.

Let's drop the ban on gay Americans serving their country. And let's drop the dishonorable fraud of "don't ask don't tell". In doing so, we already have found the first of what we hope will be many positives to come from this deadly peril.
Their country needs gay Americans in wartime. Lets need them all the time.

 
jcs17
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:06 am

"Dont ask, dont tell" is the only reasonable policy. This is the military, not match.com. I feel the same way when it comes to heterosexual relationships in the military, as well. There is no place in the military for straight or gay romantic interludes. Your job is to fight, not to hook up with the opposite/same sex.

That being said, I havent heard anything about the discrimination problems, but why would there be discrimination problems if the troops followed the "Dont ask dont tell" policy? No one is supposed to know theyre gay, so why should there be a problem...unless they are breaking the rules.

Their country needs gay Americans in wartime.

Yeah, who else would decorate the tents, and color coordinate our uniforms!

Sorry, I couldnt resist.  Smile

America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
jaysit
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:09 am

Heavy:

I attended a talk given by the SLDN (Service Members Legal Defense Network) Legal Counsel last Tuesday. It appears that discharges in 2002 under Dont Ask, Dont tell are down from a high in 2001, but that over 300 servicemen and women face discharges under Dont ask, dont tell as soon as they return from active duty in the Gulf (assuming these people make it back alive). That in itself is a disgrace.

Frankly, I was extremely dissapointed at hearing Colin Powell's recent comments on how homosexuality was incompatible with service in the military. He continues to reel off the same old tired arguments. I was never a fan of Powell (as I've indicated before), and am even less a fan of his now. Even Dick Cheney and Rummy have stated before that the gay ban is a relic, although they have not made any positive moves to lift it.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jaysit
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:24 am

"Your job is to fight, not to hook up with the opposite/same sex."

Then they should impose the ban on all heterosexuals too and we can have eunuchs in uniform.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
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RE: Jcs17

Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:31 am

Thanks for meeting my expectations as to the level of idiocy and lack of any logic a post by you would contain concerning this subject.

Please, I'm looking for a good laugh, please explain your logic behind how doing away with "Don't ask, don't tell" automatically means that there will be a dramatic and unacceptably disruptive rise of "romantic interludes" among the ranks.

In reality Jcs, the ONLY reasonable and FAIR policy is to ban actions, not a whole class of people. If the military wants to have a "no sexual relations" policy, that's fine. But the military does not have the ability to ban how people feel about each other. There are thousands of straight guys in the military right now who love each other, not in a sexual way, but in a brotherly way, and so much so that the death of one would be an immeasurable loss to the other. And yet, the military seems to be just fine. So what if gay men who choose to reveal their orientation are included in the ranks? I doubt there will be many that choose to reveal their orientation, but as long as they keep their hands to themselves, what's the big deal? Do you honestly think gay men are going to hit on guys they know that are straight?? It's the immaturity and insecurity of the military that's the real problem here. There have been numerous effective armies throughout time where homosexual men have fought and died alongside straight men. Alexander the Great didn't have any problem conquering Iraq - and he very much enjoyed the company of young men.

And if your joke about gay stereotypes came from someone other than you, I might think it was mildly amusing. Unfortunately, I think you believe that stereotype. It would be great if you could meet a handful of gay servicemen when they return from Iraq. I'm sure they wouldn't think it was so funny, and I'm sure they would be happy to help change your mind for you.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
heavymetal
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:40 am

There is no place in the military for straight or gay romantic interludes. Your job is to fight, not to hook up with the opposite/same sex.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31280-2003Mar26.html

Now there's some honor, huh?
 
jcs17
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:03 am

In reality Jcs, the ONLY reasonable and FAIR policy is to ban actions, not a whole class of people.

And that is what I am advocating. I dont care if you are gay or straight, the military is not the time or place.

And if your joke about gay stereotypes came from someone other than you, I might think it was mildly amusing. Unfortunately, I think you believe that stereotype. It would be great if you could meet a handful of gay servicemen when they return from Iraq. I'm sure they wouldn't think it was so funny, and I'm sure they would be happy to help change your mind for you.

Yeah, yeah...whatever. Learn to take a joke and laugh.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:39 am

"There is no place in the military for straight or gay romantic interludes. Your job is to fight, not to hook up with the opposite/same sex." How does this work? I'm looking for clarification here, not a fight. Are you saying that if you are in the military, you must be celibate at all times, or just that you can't have relationships with other military personnel?
 
TWFirst
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RE: Jcs17

Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:44 am

Well okay then, Jcs. You're dismissed. I'll be more at ease. Maybe you need to be drilled more young cadet. Why don't we do some private training....


 Big grin
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Hepkat
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 8:04 am

Consider this: the armed forces in Europe have been having gay soldiers, even open gay ones, for a very long time now and somehow they manage to work together and get their jobs done. It seems to me this has more to do with prejudice against gays than any harm gay soldiers could possibly bring to the force. Such prejudice is out-dated and not in keeping with progressive thought and the modern civilization.

 
Guest

RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:09 am

Hepkat,

Well said. It seems rather strange that the US military is backward on this issue. Something will have to be done about it though.

Cheers,

mb
 
Ilyushin96M
Posts: 2506
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:25 am

AMEN, Heavymetal. There was a topic posted about the 10-12 Arabic language specialists discharged from the military because of their sexual orientation, which completely enraged me. My response was that if the military doesn't want us (gays, lesbians, bisexuals) in peace time, then we should refuse to serve when called. "Don't ask, don't tell" must end, immediately, and we should all be a stand that it does. This policy shows that America still has far to go in terms of progress.

Jcs, do you really enjoy posting things that make it painfully obvious how catastrophically ignorant and backward you are? I'm not even going to reply to what you said. Just grow up, kid.
 
jcs17
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:34 am

Jcs, do you really enjoy posting things that make it painfully obvious how catastrophically ignorant and backward you are? I'm not even going to reply to what you said. Just grow up, kid.

I'll reply to what you said: TAKE A JOKE!

I mean, seriously, I even said that gays and straight people should have same rights in the military. I just dont feel that the military is the place for sexual conquests--whether gay or straight. Its not like I'm pulling an MD-90 here and claiming that gays are going to hell, or whatever. I respect a gay person the same as a straight person. I think that all of you need to laugh for a change instead of being so serious all the time.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Ilyushin96M
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:43 am

Jcs, that's exactly what I mean - the "don't ask, don't tell" policy has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with what you said about "I just don't feel that the military is the place for sexual conquests." You are obviously serious about this. What in the world would make you think anyone would think that? It's so far out in left field as to be laughable.
 
jcs17
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:52 am

Jcs, that's exactly what I mean - the "don't ask, don't tell" policy has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with what you said about "I just don't feel that the military is the place for sexual conquests." You are obviously serious about this. What in the world would make you think anyone would think that? It's so far out in left field as to be laughable.

Oh give it a rest. By instituting a policy where soliders are allowed to openly gay you are opening that door where soldiers know the sexual orientation of other soldiers and not only could there be romantic tension, but there could be significant problems with harrassment. Have you ever worked with someone you have dated and then subsequently broken up with? I dont think the military is exactly the place where that kind of tension is very good.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Ilyushin96M
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:02 am

Jcs, your reasoning still lacks maturity and consideration. But, given your age group and your relentless arguing to make yourself right and the rest of us wrong, it's not surprising.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't walked in my shoes, or in the shoes of anyone who's been a victim of this stupid policy. You can have no understanding whatsoever what it's like to deal with this sort of crap, and the mindset behind it, which, unfortunately, you seem to share.
 
Guest

RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:27 am

Jcs17,

Quoting Hepkat:

"""Consider this: the armed forces in Europe have been having gay soldiers, even open gay ones, for a very long time now and somehow they manage to work together and get their jobs done."""

Include Australia in that list.

Your reasoning is ludicrous.

mb



[Edited 2003-03-27 03:29:15]
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:58 am

You have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't walked in my shoes, or in the shoes of anyone who's been a victim of this stupid policy. You can have no understanding whatsoever what it's like to deal with this sort of crap, and the mindset behind it, which, unfortunately, you seem to share.

Oh please share. I am very interested to hear about your "troubles" with this policy in place. "Troubles" that do not include trying to meet other men for romantic purposes. Please tell me your troubles with this policy.

Consider this: the armed forces in Europe have been having gay soldiers, even open gay ones, for a very long time now and somehow they manage to work together and get their jobs done.

The armies of most European nations are vastly different than the armed services of America--from the way they operate to the way the troops live. You are comparing apples and oranges.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Ilyushin96M
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 1999 3:15 am

RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:07 pm

No, Jcs, I'm not going to get into what it's like to experience discrimination and unfounded hatred based on sexual orientation. I'm not going to try to get you to see how horrid it is for someone who's served 20-30 years of distinguished service with the military and received high honours to be discharged because, suddenly, it has been discovered that he/she is homosexual.

I'm not interested in attempting to affect your mindset, mostly because I don't have the time or patience to take on the painstaking, involved process of removing your head from your anal orifice. You seem unprepared and unwilling to have that happen, so keep it there.
 
TWAL1011
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:09 pm

It would appear that you just did get into it, Ilyushin96M.
 
Hepkat
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:05 pm

The armies of most European nations are vastly different than the armed services of America--from the way they operate to the way the troops live. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Or perhaps Europeans have discovered that a soldier's sexual orientation is nobody's business and that it has no bearing on that soldier's performance or behavior. Which is the more likely and logical conclusion?

 
TWAL1011
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:16 pm

The term "gay" has been used 32 times in this thread.

Edited to say "thread" instead of "thead".

[Edited 2003-03-27 05:17:56]
 
Ilyushin96M
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 1999 3:15 am

RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:41 pm

TWAL1011, are you posting just for the sake of it, to fill up space, or do you have any valid points to make?
 
MD-90
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:21 pm

The "don't ask, don't tell" policy is stupid. It shouldn't matter whatever you call yourself.

However, actions could get people into trouble. Look at Kelly Flynn. She was accused of fraternizing with an enlisted man (she was the Air Force's first B-52 pilot). It didn't happen, but the guy lied and she was discharged. It's a horribly unfair story, but it did happen.
 
Guest

Question For Jcs17

Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:32 pm

I have seen enough of your comments over the time on issues such as this to come to the conclusion that anything you say on this issue, is not a joke. TWFirst might be willing to give you benefit of the doubt, but I don't think it is warranted.

Anyway, just a tiny question for you.

Are these "straight armies" (as you obviously would like to see them) in Iraq at the moment fighting for the "liberation" and/or "freedom" of all Iraqis, including the queer ones?
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:24 pm

Just please tell me how this policy gets in the way of your job...
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
heavymetal
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RE: At Long Last, Let Us Ban "The Ban"

Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:38 pm

Just please tell me how this policy gets in the way of your job...

It's kinda hard to do a job for which anything would get in the way when you've been dismissed from that job.

And I want to thank you for your posts, JC. Your opinions that somehow we want the ban dropped so we can turn the US military into some giant bottled water and trance music circuit party, good only for "hooking up", HAS to be having the effect I was intending on the more common sensical conservatives reading this. The present facts are, gay Americans are serving.....their country. Not glow sticks and Zima.

If the dumb jock contingent can't come up with anything better, I'd suggest you drop this issue entirely and fall back on Clinton, war, whether golfers are athletes are not....

The golden oldies.
 
TWFirst
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RE: Aviatsiya

Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:49 pm

It's not that I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt... he wanted me to lighten up and take a joke... so I wanted to see if he would 'lighten up' when thrown some homosexual innuendo laden 'humor'.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.

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