keesje
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Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:05 am

The strategy was

- Quick & high tech clean war
- Saddam is impressed
- Army collapses
- Population revolts
- Liberators are greeted by cheers & flowers
- Go home and have a Victory Parade
- Make a laugh about France & forgive Russia, Germany & China
- Democracy has won & God continues to bless America.

Happening now :
- Islamic world is deeply pissed off, one of their biggest city's is bombed by a far away country as a pre-emptive measurement, live on TV.
- Saddam is on the TV accusing US/UK & preaching Jihad
- Army is not collapsed & puts up serious battles
- Population is scared & careful. In 1991 60.000 were murdered in the streets while Schwartzkopf was parading Victory in NY & CNN wasnt interested no more.. F16/F18s were flying overhead while hospitals were cleaned of wounded youngster by the Rev guards.
- Baghdad is an enormous city full of potential resistance. Getting in means man to man fights.

The world knew this wasnt going to be easy or clean. US population is silently starting asking themselves if they were misleaded by Government & Press.

Lets hope the war gets over quickly or there will only be loosers ....

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/liberation.html

Will public support be 70% in 2 weeks ? Want to put your own money on it ?

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flyyul
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:18 am

More Anti-War sh*t coming out of your mouth..

How about a few things that should be enough to warrant war..

1.) iraqi's mining their port, dont want humanitarian aid

2.) Oil for food program, the benefits are kept by the Senior leadership of Iraqi military

3.) Iraq has chemical weapons, what else explaisn the 30000 chemical suits and anti-dotes.

Maybe you dont remember 09/11.. maybe you'd like to take on the CIA, which has credible reason to believe, that giving these weapons in the hands of terrorist, WILL ultimately lead to the death of million of Americans/Canadians etc.

You dont see the need for war, but who said you were informed. You know 0.00000001% of what the CIA knows..... so you should shut your mouth.

The coalition troops after 7 days (7 days G*damit), the troops are literally occupying the better portion of Iraq. They are 70 miles out of Baghdad....

Watch Iraqi TV, and watch the propaganda coming out of their mouthes.... Ill bet you my left arm it was they who bombed a baghdad market.... its the not hte first time they do gruesome things..

Watch the tapes of the planes go into the WTC.... and then watch CNN last night, in a Iraqi palace they found a picture of two Iraqi's Airways planes going into buildings...

NO link with terrorism eh?

Gimme a break..

Mark
 
Marcus
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:20 am

Lets hope the war gets over quickly or there will only be loosers ....
********************

Hmmmmmm......I would say that war itself only creates loosing sides, just some more than others since everyone looses in a war.

As for the link, I love that site.........he has a great sense of black humor.
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
voodoo
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:25 am

`You dont see the need for war, but who said you were informed. You know 0.00000001% of what the CIA knows..... so you should shut your mouth.'
---------
Uhhh... CIA analysts have basically been against this war at this time...see this weeks New Yorker mag. Rumsfeld steamrollered this war into being against the advice of many.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
HOMER71
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:36 am

I don't remember the US government saying they expect a quick clean war. I hear the media saying it...
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
flyyul
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:39 am

"Uhhh... CIA analysts have basically been against this war at this time...see this weeks New Yorker mag. Rumsfeld steamrollered this war into being against the advice of many."

-Right.. thats why you see Tenet everyday in intelligence meetings..

ANd with these meetings in mind, there surely is very good reason to be concerned between the link Iraq/Al Qaeda... and if you still dont believe it, thats fine.... your simply in denial of what poses as potential serious consequences.

But your in Europe... you dont need to worry about it.

Mark
 
777236ER
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:52 am

Ill bet you my left arm it was they who bombed a baghdad market.... its the not hte first time they do gruesome things..

Right, even though the US military has admitted "it is a possibility" that friendly fire caused it?

Watch the tapes of the planes go into the WTC.... and then watch CNN last night, in a Iraqi palace they found a picture of two Iraqi's Airways planes going into buildings...

So, the only evidence they've come up with is.......a picture. That's it?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
JetService
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:10 am

Right, even though the US military has admitted "it is a possibility" that friendly fire caused it?

777236ER, what does that have to do with anything? What he says is a possibility, too. What's your guess?

- Islamic world is deeply pissed off, one of their biggest city's is bombed by a far away country as a pre-emptive measurement, live on TV.

Is Kuwait not part of the Islamic world? What about Iraqi citizens? Hmmmm
"Shaddap you!"
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:26 am

Fact: the U.S. is not acting alone, but in a coalition of over 30 nations.

Fact: the coalition did NOT need U.N. "permission" to act.

Fact: over 75% of Iraq is now occupied by coalition forces.

Fact: the coalition is taking great care to avoid civilian casualties.

Fact: the coalition is attempting to provide humanitarian aid.

Fact: the coalition is not "carpet-bombing," which is more effective in eradicating targets.

Fact: the coalition has no plans to "colonize" Iraq like an imperial power.

Fact: the coalition has taken great pains to save Iraqi oil fields for use by the Iraqi people.

Fact: evidence shows that Iraq had banned missiles, and probably has banned chemical weaponry.

Fact: the Iraqis are in violation of the Geneva Convention regarding treatment of prisoners of war

Fact: the coalition will either take Baghdad by force or lay siege to it until the government capitulates.

The coalition is committed to victory.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
keesje
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:41 am

Is Kuwait not part of the Islamic world? joking right ? size/population ?

What about Iraqi citizens scared & careful

CIA was against war before it started, because they knew. Now they are doing their duty.


the troops are literally occupying the better portion of Iraq the desert.

Watch the tapes of the planes go into the WTC.... and then watch CNN last night, in a Iraqi palace they found a picture of two Iraqis Airways planes going into buildings... NO link with terrorism eh? Islamic children all over the world were drawing them. Were the f.ck have you been since 9-11 ?

CNN .. they do their patriotic duty these days.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/360530/

30 nations support
- pls take a good look at the list & see who is in & who is missing ..
- find out what this support means : basically not opposing openly, in many cases the population is against this war.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
heavymetal
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:55 am

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement" - Michael Corleone

Dubya forget that one awhile ago.
 
Marcus
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:00 am

Fact: You did not post any facts  Smile

Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:01 am

FLYYUL:

"1.) iraqi's mining their port, dont want humanitarian aid.."

Well what would you do when your country is about to be invaded by foreign military? Place a big sign with 'Welcome American & British Invasion Forces; Stay As Long As You Like'?

"2.) Oil for food program, the benefits are kept by the Senior leadership of Iraqi military"

It is the UN that controls the revenues from the "Oil-For-Food" Program and it was the UN that decided how much of these revenues could be spend by Iraq on each item (humanitarian aid, compensation claims regarding Gulf War 1, UN Programme in Kurdish region and "UN administrative expenses).

"3.) Iraq has chemical weapons, what else explaisn the 30000 chemical suits and anti-dotes."

Your profile states you are a student. I sure hope you not taking a Law Degree, as your argumentation method is very poor, to say the least.

"Maybe you dont remember 09/11.. maybe you'd like to take on the CIA, which has credible reason to believe, that giving these weapons in the hands of terrorist, WILL ultimately lead to the death of million of Americans/Canadians etc."

'Maybe' you don't remember from whom Saddam obtained his Anthrax? 'Maybe' you don't remember where Osama bin Laden (remember him?) got his training? 'Maybe' you don't remember that the CIA's credibility regarding terrorism hasn't been to good, as they never saw 9/11 coming.

"You dont see the need for war, but who said you were informed. You know 0.00000001% of what the CIA knows..... so you should shut your mouth."

Ahh, the remarkable and ever so effective CIA! Tell me, how is it possible that the CIA, that according to you knows so much, never ever saw 9/11 coming, while other foreign security services, including the French, did know something major was about to happen? And how on earth is it possible that the director of the CIA on 9/11, Tenet, has not resigned over that 'misconception' nor has he been made to do so?

"The coalition troops after 7 days (7 days G*damit), the troops are literally occupying the better portion of Iraq. They are 70 miles out of Baghdad...."

The better portion of Iraq? It's a G*ddamn desert!

"Watch Iraqi TV, and watch the propaganda coming out of their mouthes...."

Of course, the US and Canadian media are 'completely different'!

"Ill bet you my left arm it was they who bombed a baghdad market.."

And how would you like your arm to be removed in case you lose your bet? By a cruise-missile?

"its the not hte first time they do gruesome things..."

Well, at least in that department the US and Iraq are equal.

"Watch the tapes of the planes go into the WTC..."

You actually have this on tape?

"...and then watch CNN last night, in a Iraqi palace they found a picture of two Iraqi's Airways planes going into buildings...

NO link with terrorism eh?

Gimme a break..
"

Like a said above, you would make a terrible lawyer.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:33 am

EA CO AS:

"Fact: the U.S. is not acting alone, but in a coalition of over 30 nations."

But it was the US, UK and Spain that were making the War on Iraq case at the UN Security Council.

"Fact: the coalition did NOT need U.N. "permission" to act."

It DID and it still DOES. Actually, it WILL need the UN Security Council, to rebuild Iraq, or do you want the US to pay for it all by itself?

"Fact: over 75% of Iraq is now occupied by coalition forces."

Of which about 95% is desert.

"Fact: the coalition is taking great care to avoid civilian casualties."

True, yet not starting this war in the first place would have given a much lower civilian death toll.

"Fact: the coalition is attempting to provide humanitarian aid."

Your argumentation is weird. To you, its a FACT they are ATTEMPTING to provide humanitarian aide. Anyway, they have been ATTEMPTING over the past couple of days. And as things look now, the must urgent aide needed is water as heavy battles have cut-off watersupply. IMO, the port on Umm Qasr is more of a military logistic interest, then to get humanitarian aide through. If the coalition is really that interested in getting the aide through, call for a cease fire and drop from the air.

"Fact: the coalition is not "carpet-bombing," which is more effective in eradicating targets."

Nuclear bombs are also very effective. It also solves the 'humanitarian aide' issue.

"Fact: the coalition has no plans to "colonize" Iraq like an imperial power."

Well, then why the heck did Tony Blair see Bush today? The US wants to establish a long term government in Iraq with an US assigned leader and does not want to involve the UN in this, something Blair is in favour of.

"Fact: the coalition has taken great pains to save Iraqi oil fields for use by the Iraqi people."

.... and to be sold by the Iraqi people to the US at a very attractive price for the US.

"Fact: evidence shows that Iraq had banned missiles, and probably has banned chemical weaponry."

How can you base a FACT on an ASSUMPTION? As a 'Standup philosopher' you state you are, my guess is your adiences are always very small. The FACT is, that up until today, no banned missiles have been used in this war, nor has any chemical or biological weaponry been found.

"Fact: the Iraqis are in violation of the Geneva Convention regarding treatment of prisoners of war"

And the Coalition Forces are not? And the US is not regarding Guantanamo?

"Fact: the coalition will either take Baghdad by force or lay siege to it until the government capitulates."

How can you base a fact on something that hasn't happened yet? Do you have a crystal ball?

"The coalition is committed to victory."

Well that's the whole point of this war isn't it? Why else even begin a war if you're not committed to victory. It's a nice sounding phrase, but it doesn't say anything.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
vafi88
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:40 am

Baghdad-A city which has stood ground for well over 20 centuries (I don't know EXACTLY how long it's been there for) yet, it's been mentioned in the Bible and is a VERY important Arab City, and look what the US and the Coalition which is really only 4 Nations because they are the ones sending troops to aimlessly bomb the great city.

This is the bit of info I know many of your heads will not absorb: Iraqi civillians AND SOLDIERS are against Sadaam's rule and yet are agains a foreign country telling them what to do or how to act and what kind of Government to put up.

Also, we ARE taking over the country, conquering it; while just the other day a US soldier took down an Iraqi Flag (I think it might have been in Basra) on a Government building that has just been *Liberated* and put up the Marines Flag and the USA flag.

How is that not saying that this is our country now?
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:43 am

Fact: You did not post any facts

Is that the best you could come up with, Marcus?  Insane

Then again, it's hard to deny factual information though...so I guess your reply is the best anyone could possibly muster.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:44 am

But it was the US, UK and Spain that were making the War on Iraq case at the UN Security Council.

What's your point? It was the US, UK, and Spain physically present at the UN, but with many countries supporting us.

It DID and it still DOES.

Oh really? Then why are we already a week into the war?

Of which about 95% is desert.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

True, yet not starting this war in the first place would have given a much lower civilian death toll.

How did you come to that? You're not ignoring over 2 million civilians that have died under Saddam, are you? Leaving Saddam in for another 1/2 a year would cost a lot more civilian deaths then the effort to stop the murdering would.

Those people are starving, and Saddam doesn't care. If anyone revolts against him, that means death or gassing to their town.

Do you really think that the US and UK are not doing their very best to stop civilian casualties?

Like I've said before:

What do you think everything going on in Iraq is? That's right, the whole strategy on this war is to save civilians from their terrorist leader. Think about it, we could have Baghdad layered in about an hour with several bombers just completely carpet bombing the city and so forth, instead of almost completely using smart bombs. We are evening using smart bombs on our B52s. Actually, all we would have to do if we didn't in fact care about civilians, is press one button, and the whole thing would be over in less than a minute............without a single US or Allied Soldier lost.

So, go ahead again and tell me that leaving Saddam in power would cause less civilian deaths than this war. Ignore the facts Saddam lover.  Insane




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:47 am

just the other day a US soldier took down an Iraqi Flag (I think it might have been in Basra) on a Government building that has just been *Liberated* and put up the Marines Flag and the USA flag.

Vafi, if you would've read the whole story about that, you might not be so worked up about it.

As it turns how, some guy did pull down the Iraqi flag, and put a US flag in place of it, but less than a minute later, everyone else in that squad came up to the guy, explained that they were there to liberate the people, not to annex the country, and they immediately put the Iraqi flag back up.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
erj190
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:20 am

I usually don't do this. But this post was so sickening that I really had to do it.
Sorry for the inconvenience. Post got too long.

"...Fact: the U.S. is not acting alone, but in a coalition of over 30 nations..."
It's just a pity than on those nations the public opinions are against war. From the 30 nations only the UK, the Czech Republic and Poland have ground troops. Poland has 200 and the Czechs some 40.

I suppose Bessarabia Transilvania count as allies. The powerful armies of Salvador, Eritrea, Tonga and Where-the-heck-is-that Republic are also valuable assets for the coalition ... Give me a break.  Smile

"...Fact: the coalition did NOT need U.N. "Permission" to act..."
Of course not. A murderer does not need the law to allow him to kill does he?

"...Fact: over 75% of Iraq is now occupied by coalition forces..."
That one must come from FOX. The US controls 100% of the air space.
The US controls about 12% to 15% of the territory and from 2 to 3% of the population. Important to say that the Iraqi government controls roughly 30% of the territory, and some 75% of the population. The remaining being deserts and the Kurdistan areas. Please look at the maps.


"...Fact: the coalition is taking great care to avoid civilian casualties..."
That is something of a discussion. The last time I heard they were targeting civilians taking their hearts "literally" 17 where "Liberated" yesterday.

"...Fact: the coalition is attempting to provide humanitarian aid..."
Up to now, it was propaganda, but even that propaganda was a disaster. They were so efficient that the whole world saw a riot, where the strong got all the food. (suppose that's the American way)

"...Fact: the coalition is not "carpet-bombing," which is more effective in eradicating targets..."
This is true (at least until now) because if things go wrong for the Nazi-like guys in Washington, they will find some credible reason to nuke Iraq if needed.


"...Fact: the coalition has no plans to "colonize" Iraq like an imperial power..."
L.O.L. Ask the vice president what he thinks about all the contracts signed even before September 11. The American Nazi-like elements want Iraq BAD!!!
And BTW, you seem to be very well informed about the US plans of colonization - I don't think Heirich Rumsfeld is going to like that. You'd better be carefully. They are going to start making you offers you can't refuse.

"...Fact: the coalition has taken great pains to save Iraqi oil fields for use by the Iraqi people..."
OHHHH I AM SURE THEY WILL they will take far greater pain to save the oil fields than to save lives, after all, those Muslims are just stealing American oil which just spilled to under their deserts.

"...Fact: evidence shows that Iraq had banned missiles, and probably has banned chemical weaponry..."
You may believe it. But I don't think anybody believes that.



"...Fact: the Iraqis are in violation of the Geneva Convention regarding treatment of prisoners of war..."
AS the Americans, which where the first to show war prisoners being humiliated, with guns pointed to their heads, forced to hit the dirt and beaten LIVE on American TV - But of course Arabs are just scum, they can be humiliated, after all, the show must go on and six o'clock news needs those pictures. Double standards again and again, it's sickening.


"...Fact: the coalition will either take Baghdad by force or lay siege to it until the government capitulates..."
that's true, no matter how many Iraqis are killed (I mean LIBERATED)


"The coalition is committed to victory."
Sure it is, As much committed to victory as Mr. Bush is committed to win a re-election, Mr. Cheney is committed to squeeze everything he can from Iraq, and Mr. Rumsfeld is commited to killed as many Iraqis as needed to help his sick Ego.


[Edited 2003-03-28 02:36:40]
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:25 am

NWA742:

"What's your point? It was the US, UK, and Spain physically present at the UN, but with many countries supporting us."

But many of those countries were not represented at the UNSC and could therefore not support a 2nd resolution.

"Oh really? Then why are we already a week into the war?"

Because the US, UK and Spain said: "fuck the UN, fuck the rest of the World, we're gonna' do it anyway".

"What the hell does that have to do with anything?"

You stated the Coalition Forces have already occupied 75% of Iraq. 95% of that portion is desert. If you want a regime change, even occupying 99% will not achieve your goal as long as you haven't occupied Baghdad.

"How did you come to that? You're not ignoring over 2 million civilians that have died under Saddam, are you? Leaving Saddam in for another 1/2 a year would cost a lot more civilian deaths then the effort to stop the murdering would."

No, I am not ignoring the Iraqi people. In fact, neither has the UN Security Council over these past 12 years, as many members such as France and Russia tried over and over again to change the sanctions to something less hard on the Iraqi people, but the US and the UK, over and over again, opposed. Why do you think the Iraqis are not receiving the Coalition Forces as Liberators? They know very well it was the US and the UK that always pressed hard at the UNSC for maintaining the sanctions. And don't give me any bullsh!t saying Saddam is to blame for the sanctions, as Saddam had proven well before the santions he didn't give a shit about his own people. If you want to place sanctions on a regime, place it on the regime, not on the people the regime oppreses!

"Do you really think that the US and UK are not doing their very best to stop civilian casualties?"

The ONLY way to avoid civilian casualties, or ANY casualties, either Iraqi or Coalition Forces, would have been NOT starting this war.

"That's right, the whole strategy on this war is to save civilians from their terrorist leader."

Do you work for Fox News, or what? Terrorist leader you state, while I am still waiting to see ANY direct link between ANY terrorist organization and Saddam Hussein.

"So, go ahead again and tell me that leaving Saddam in power would cause less civilian deaths than this war. Ignore the facts Saddam lover."

Oh my God, here we go again. The FACT that I am AGAINST this war does NOT mean I am a 'Saddam lover'. Maybe in your simplistic way of thinking it does, but normal people in the rest of the world have actually achieved 'logical thinking' ages ago and have overcome making 'stone-age' assumptions like yours.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:46 am

But many of those countries were not represented at the UNSC and could therefore not support a 2nd resolution.

True, but what's your point?

Because the US, UK and Spain said: "fuck the UN, fuck the rest of the World, we're gonna' do it anyway".

Bullshit. The US, UK, and Spain said: "fine, you guys still can't agree that Saddam is a lunatic who needs to be removed from power, that's ok, we'll do it ourselves, without your help, be that way."

Also "the rest of the world", how do you figure that?

You stated the Coalition Forces have already occupied 75% of Iraq. 95% of that portion is desert. If you want a regime change, even occupying 99% will not achieve your goal as long as you haven't occupied Baghdad.

It doesn't matter if it's all almost desert, it's still a part of Iraq in which they tried to hold us back, and failed miserably, that's the whole point.

No, I am not ignoring the Iraqi people. In fact, neither has the UN Security Council over these past 12 years, as many members such as France and Russia tried over and over again to change the sanctions to something less hard on the Iraqi people, but the US and the UK, over and over again, opposed. Why do you think the Iraqis are not receiving the Coalition Forces as Liberators? They know very well it was the US and the UK that always pressed hard at the UNSC for maintaining the sanctions. And don't give me any bullsh!t saying Saddam is to blame for the sanctions, as Saddam had proven well before the santions he didn't give a shit about his own people. If you want to place sanctions on a regime, place it on the regime, not on the people the regime oppreses!

Yes, you are ignoring the Iraqi people. By saying that less civlians would die by leaving Saddam in power proves that.

Also, you just contradicted yourself. You say that war is not the right choice, even when EVERYONE has been trying to help the Iraqi people without military force, for 12 years!

The ONLY way to avoid civilian casualties, or ANY casualties, either Iraqi or Coalition Forces, would have been NOT starting this war.

COMPLETE BULLSHIT Schoenorama! Even in the few weeks before this war started, Iraqi people were still being slaughtered for opposing Saddam, and while others weren't opposing, they were starving anyways! Would you guess that, had this war not started, that Saddam would suddenly stop the murdering, and resign? Bullshit and nothing else

You really think that leaving Saddam in power will prevent civilian casualties? What the hell is the matter with you? Open your eyes and use your head!

Terrorist leader you state, while I am still waiting to see ANY direct link between ANY terrorist organization and Saddam Hussein.

You don't remember when Saddam was bragging about paying the families of Palestinian suicide bombers?

Also, it's been confirmed that some Al Qaeda soldiers FIGHTING FOR SADDAM were captured by British troops.

Oh my God, here we go again. The FACT that I am AGAINST this war does NOT mean I am a 'Saddam lover'.

I'm not saying that you're a Saddam because you simply oppose the war. It's for a number of reasons; you refuse to face facts about this war, you say that civilian casualties would be prevented by leaving Saddam in power, and you continuously stab at the US/UK instead of Saddam, who is the real cause of this war.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
9V-SVE
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:55 am

"Also, it's been confirmed that some Al Qaeda soldiers FIGHTING FOR SADDAM were captured by British troops."

Well, were they fighting on their own free will or were they ordered by Bin Laden?
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:59 am

Well, were they fighting on their own free will or were they ordered by Bin Laden?

I don't know that.

But I think the thing that matters most on this subject of war with Iraq is that these terrorists were fighting FOR SADDAM in the first place.

If they were ordered by OBL, then that could mean he has ties with Saddam. If they are acting at their own will, they're still fighting under Saddam. I don't see why they would fight for someone who wouldn't be an ally to them.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
9V-SVE
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:01 am

"If they were ordered by OBL, then that could mean he has ties with Saddam. If they are acting at their own will, they're still fighting under Saddam. I don't see why they would fight for someone who wouldn't be an ally to them."

Doesn't have to be. OBL & SH are enemies, but OBL loves fighting the US, so he dispatches troops to fight the US. Doesnt matter if its in Saddam-land.
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:10 am

OBL & SH are enemies

How the heck would you know that, 9V-SVA?

but OBL loves fighting the US, so he dispatches troops to fight the US. Doesnt matter if its in Saddam-land.

I see where you're coming from. He could simply dispatch troops to fight for the US, but these guys were fighting under Saddam. They weren't "doing their own thing", so to speak.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
airplay
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:13 am

3.) Iraq has chemical weapons, what else explaisn the 30000 chemical suits and anti-dotes.

What a silly statement. The US troops have defenses against chemical and biological threats like gas masks etc. Does that mean THEY intend on using them too? It's not as far fetched as it sounds.

The US left behind 360 tons of depleted uranium in the last Gulf war. This stuff is toxic and is the subject of studies into gulf war syndrome, and increased kidney disease in the region.

How about tactical nukes? The US has not ruled them out. Don't you think protection is in order?

This is heading for disaster in a hurry. Saddam has pretty much guaranteed a tough time of it in the fight for Bahgdad. Either the coalition nukes the whole mess or they suffer a great deal of casualties. Either is fairly unpalatable to the American public.

As far as tactics, anyone and their grandmother knows that when you advance you don't leave your flanks and behind wide open. There is no room for retreat, so there better be lots of air support when the shit starts to fly around Baghdad.

 
9V-SVA
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:14 am

How the heck would you know that, 9V-SVA?

I know because it has been reported in the press that OBL hates SH as he does not like SH's extravagant lifestyle. Read up for god's sake you ignorant dimwit!

I see where you're coming from. He could simply dispatch troops to fight for the US, but these guys were fighting under Saddam. They weren't "doing their own thing", so to speak.

Riiiight. Dispatching troops to Iraq does not mean these soldiers are fighting under Saddam. Use a bit of common sense!

9V-SVA
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9V-SVE
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:15 am

"I see where you're coming from. He could simply dispatch troops to fight for the US, but these guys were fighting under Saddam. They weren't "doing their own thing", so to speak."

They are fighting under BIN LADEN, not SADDAM!
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:18 am

"OBL & SH are enemies

How the heck would you know that, 9V-SVA?
"

Because HISTORY has told us. Saddam is a dictator that wants all the power for himself. OBL is an Islamic Fundamentalist that wants a better world for his people. In this regard, in the case Saddam has WMD's, he would be a fool to give them to OBL as that could mean a serious threat to his own power.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:22 am

I know because it has been reported in the press that OBL hates SH as he does not like SH's extravagant lifestyle.

Do you have any sources or proof of this? Also, are you going actually to believe Saddam?

Read up for god's sake you ignorant dimwit!

Well, that's just about what'd I'd expect from a 13 year old kid from Hong Kong.  Insane

Riiiight. Dispatching troops to Iraq does not mean these soldiers are fighting under Saddam. Use a bit of common sense.

Think about it. Of course is would not automatically mean that they were fighting under Saddam. But IN THIS CASE, these guys were fighting WITH Iraqi troops!

They are fighting under BIN LADEN, not SADDAM!

Oh really? So I guess that's why they were in Iraq fighting with Iraqi troops.  Insane



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:25 am

Because HISTORY has told us.

Wait a minute, history tells you all that, but it doesn't tell you that leaving Saddam in power would cost more civlian lives than this war will?

You have a really thick skull which only hears what it wants, don't you?

OBL is an Islamic Fundamentalist that wants a better world for his people.

OBL is an Islamic TERRORIST who wants to MURDER every single American that he can, whether or not it helps "his" people!



-NWA742
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9V-SVE
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:31 am

"Oh really? So I guess that's why they were in Iraq fighting with Iraqi troops."

And...whats your point?
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:36 am

And...whats your point?

Truely sad.............yet not surprising.

You still don't get my point? These AL-QAEDA soldiers were fighting ALONG SIDE the IRAQI troops.

Let's make it even more simple:

AL-QAEDA - - - - ALONGSIDE - - - - IRAQ

It's not too hard to get.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
9V-SVA
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:39 am

Do you have any sources or proof of this? Also, are you going actually to believe Saddam?

As long as I read it in the press and have heard about it, that is SUFFICE.

Wait a minute, history tells you all that, but it doesn't tell you that leaving Saddam in power would cost more civlian lives than this war will?

You have a really thick skull which only hears what it wants, don't you?


Speak for yourself, NWA742. Your skull is as thick, if not, thicker than either mine or SVE's ones.

Well, that's just about what'd I'd expect from a 13 year old kid from Hong Kong.

Obviously someone failed geography in high school.

Think about it. Of course is would not automatically mean that they were fighting under Saddam. But IN THIS CASE, these guys were fighting WITH Iraqi troops!

You telling me to think about it when you have made no thought at all about it? You are the biggest hypocrite I have seen so far.

9V-SVA
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9V-SVE
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:42 am

"Truely sad.............yet not surprising.

You still don't get my point? These AL-QAEDA soldiers were fighting ALONG SIDE the IRAQI troops.

Let's make it even more simple:

AL-QAEDA - - - - ALONGSIDE - - - - IRAQ

It's not too hard to get."


You claim that Saddam has links to Al-Qaeda because Al-Qaeda soldiers are fighting alongside Iraqi troops, well, Saddam did not order the Al-Qaeda troops into battle...Bin Laden did. Saddam had no influence whatsoever in Bin Laden's decision.
 
NWA742
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:49 am

As long as I read it in the press and have heard about it, that is SUFFICE.

Here's a small bit of advice for a young man like you, don't believe everything you read.

Speak for yourself, NWA742. Your skull is as thick, if not, thicker than either mine or SVE's ones.

Can you at least explain your accusations like I have done?  Insane

Obviously someone failed geography in high school.

My mistake, I didn't look into your profile until now. For some reason I always thought you were from Hong Kong.  Confused

You telling me to think about it when you have made no thought at all about it?

Again, explain how I have "not thought about it at all".

Saddam did not order the Al-Qaeda troops into battle...Bin Laden did

Yeah, and you know this.........how?  Insane

Come on guys, one more chance for you to come up with any logical arguments, or I'm simply ignoring this thread.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
9V-SVA
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:54 am

Come on guys, one more chance for you to come up with any logical arguments, or I'm simply ignoring this thread.

By all means, NWA742. Noone asked you to put your foot into this thread in the first place. Noone can stop you. Don't read this if you don't want to. Don't force yourself to do things you have disdain for. Goodbye(and good riddance)!

9V-SVA
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NWA742
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:59 am

By all means, NWA742. Noone asked you to put your foot into this thread in the first place. Noone can stop you. Don't read this if you don't want to. Don't force yourself to do things you have disdain for. Goodbye(and good riddance)!

Wow 9V-SVA, that's the best you can do?

Listen, I came into this thread thinking that maybe a logical conversation and debate could go on. Now, that I've wasted my time argueing with 2 little Asian kids who know squat about the real world, it's now time to leave it at this.

I'm through with this thread.



-NWA742
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Schoenorama
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:05 pm

NWA742:


"Wait a minute, history tells you all that, but it doesn't tell you that leaving Saddam in power would cost more civlian lives than this war will?"

No, actually it doesn't. You see, with Saddam in power, humanitarian aide was at least coming into the country. Now that we have a war going on, the major humanitarian aide hasn't even started yet. A HUGE refugee problem is eminent and today we've all been able to see the first civilians escaping by foot from the combat areas.

And last but not least, who is going to pay for all this aide? Or do you wanna go back to the UNSC and ask France, Russia, Germany and China for money?

"OBL is an Islamic TERRORIST who wants to MURDER every single American that he can, whether or not it helps "his" people!"

OBL is a terrorist, we agree on that, yet he is an Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorist, or do you believe every Muslim hates Americans?

"Well, that's just about what'd I'd expect from a 13 year old kid from Hong Kong."

Please, keep me updated about when you become a commercial pilot. I wouldn't like taking a plane to SINGAPORE and ending up in HONG KONG!
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:25 pm

OBL is an Islamic Fundamentalist that wants a better world for his people.

One of the most ignorant, assinine statements EVER put on Non-Av. Schoenerama, where do you come up with garbage like this? If OBL wants to help his people, why doesn't he spend some of those few hundred million dollars he has HELPING HIS PEOPLE!!! He's not out to help anyone. Flying aircraft into buildings and killing men and women doesn't help his people. Blowing a hold in a military ship doesn't help his people. Urging that Americans be killed whenever and wherever they are found doesn't help his people.

And you want me to take your views on things seriously?
 
Thumper
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:07 pm

Because the US, UK and Spain said: "fuck the UN, fuck the rest of the World, we're gonna' do it anyway".

My,My,My, Schoenorama such language."No, actually it doesn't. You see, with Saddam in power, humanitarian aide was at least coming into the country. Now that we have a war going on, the major humanitarian aide hasn't even started yet. A HUGE refugee problem is eminent and today we've all been able to see the first civilians escaping by foot from the combat areas."

Humanitarian aid was coming into the country but it sure wasn't going to the people. Saddam was taking it ,building his military and feeding his goons,the people of Iraq were starving and being tortured,murdered,and raped.

:And last but not least, who is going to pay for all this aide? Or do you wanna go back to the UNSC and ask France, Russia, Germany and China for money?"

Absolutely not, France ,Russia,Germany and China can stay the heck out.We want nothing from any of them.
 
flyyul
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:37 pm

Schoenorama,

So im a student, who is many social/current affairs club, taken many political science classes..

The facts are the facts... what you may deny what you want, the truth stands as it does.... your profile doesnt say much about your credentials, I doubt you make a better lawyer than me Big grin

Lastly, I have been to many Model United Nations meetings, I have even been to one where Kofi Annan spoke.

The problem with the UN, is that they talk, talk, talk, then they talk some more, they talk again.. they have imposed 14 resolutions in 12 years, the results stands the same. When the CIA says we believe Iraq has chemical weapons, the know what they are talking about. These are some of the most informed guys in the world, and you have no premise to say that they are wrong..........

We live in a world, where diplomacy almost gets nothing done. Evidence, this situation is one... there is no doubt that this is in violation of international law.

Lastly, I live in Montreal, very close to NYC.. I am not Anti or Pro-America, I am Pro-Canada... however I do think that not being pro-active about this potentially dangerous situation, may backfire... we saw it on 09/11, Clinton was very passive withBin Laden, two 110 story buildings fell, 4 planes were hijacked simultaneously... you dont take Iraq seriously, you put yourself in trouble.

Mark

 
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yyz717
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:49 pm

The problem with the UN, is that they talk, talk, talk, then they talk some more, they talk again..

We live in a world, where diplomacy almost gets nothing done.

Well said Mark.

Sometimes, when talking never seems to produce results, it's time for action.



[Edited 2003-03-28 06:53:19]
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:05 pm

Absolutely..

And how can one deny such a thing?

14 resolutions/12 years... the situation remains, and in any minute, some fundamentalist can bomb downtown Toronto/Montreal/Detroit/Akron/McAllen with VX nerve agent..... oh right, Iraq destroyed them  Innocent let's be naive...

Remember Clinton had the chance to kill Bin Laden, I am democrat, but his inaction resulted in the deaths of 3000 people.

And for the record, 350 killed civilians... WTF, these guys are hiding in Hospitals, and people's houses.. right

Mark
 
flyyul
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:38 pm

Another point..

What is the point of the hundred's on palaces Saddam built in the last 10 years?

Latest news suggest many civilians have been shot by iraqi forces, for not wanting to fight.....

America is so evil  Big thumbs up

Mark
 
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 4:16 pm

Looks like another hockey game broke out, Alpha!

Anyway, just for the record, Bush is becoming neither angry nor nervous. If there was any expectation of a "weekend" war, it was the media's. My definition of a "short" war is less than a year. This war has been going on for a week. And I support it more every day.

'Speed

 
flyyul
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 4:26 pm

Hey I take Hockey over Baseball anyday...

Seriously while I love baseball (I go to at least 20 Expos games a year).. it is nowhere near as exciting as hockey..

And the pitch... foul ball... and the pitch... ball 3....

And since when do baseball players deserve $13 mil a year.. that is a crime to itself.

Mark
 
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yyz717
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 4:50 pm

While the UN talked and talked.......genocide was happening in Rwanda.

While the UN talked and talked.......ethnic cleansing was happening in Kosovo.

I think I see a trend here.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:05 pm

OBL is an Islamic Fundamentalist that wants a better world for his people.


Which is like saying Hitler was a wacky guy with nutty ideas.  Insane


While the UN talked and talked.......genocide was happening in Rwanda.

While the UN talked and talked.......ethnic cleansing was happening in Kosovo.

I think I see a trend here.


Precisely! No one in the UN likes to actually do anything; their response to 9/11 would have been to create a blue-ribbon fact-finding committee to investigate why some Muslims hate the U.S.

And that's exactly why the U.S. led coalition finally said "enough is enough," and took action.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Bush Becoming Angry And Nervous

Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:10 pm

Alpha 1:

"One of the most ignorant, assinine statements EVER put on Non-Av. Schoenerama, where do you come up with garbage like this?"

You once again completely fail to see that we are talking about the same person and both of us do have very similiar opinions on OBL. The fact that OBL is an Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorist has been all over the media since 9/11. I don't understand how you could have missed that. Read what exactly Al'Qaida stands for and what exactly OBL's background is.

The fact that I stated that OBL believes this 'Jihad' helps his people is merely my observation of things. Of course I don't agree with that, but this is what OBL himself has been stating over and over again.

Thumper:

"Humanitarian aid was coming into the country but it sure wasn't going to the people. Saddam was taking it ,building his military and feeding his goons,the people of Iraq were starving and being tortured,murdered,and raped."

Once again, your statement shows you don't have a fucking idea of what you are talking about.

"Absolutely not, France ,Russia,Germany and China can stay the heck out.We want nothing from any of them."

Well, this at least will end the discussion about the tax-cuts the Bush Administration proposed. How much increase in taxes are you willing (and able) to pay to your Government, if you want the US to be the only provider of humanitarian aide?

FLYYUL:

"The facts are the facts... what you may deny what you want, the truth stands as it does.."

Another nice sounding sentence, yet it is full of rubbish. The ONLY fact is that YOUR thruth stands as it does.

"your profile doesnt say much about your credentials, I doubt you make a better lawyer than me.."

I never stated I would be a better lawyer than you. But don't you think your argument about Iraq having chemical weapons because 30000 chemical suits have been found is very poor?

"The problem with the UN, is that they talk, talk, talk, then they talk some more, they talk again.."

I suppose you really mean to say the UNSC. Well, that was the whole point of the UNSC. The sole purpose of the UNSC is to avoid major world conflicts in a peacefull and democratic manner. Up until 8 days ago, they have been managing quite well, despite all the stuff Fox News tells you.

"When the CIA says we believe Iraq has chemical weapons, the know what they are talking about. These are some of the most informed guys in the world, and you have no premise to say that they are rong."

Don't you agree that the CIA has lost much of its credibility when prior to 9/11 it completely failed to see a major attack on US soil was about to happen?

"We live in a world, where diplomacy almost gets nothing done. Evidence, this situation is one... there is no doubt that this is in violation of international law."

Diplomacy, even US diplomacy, has worked perfectly well for the US before Bush Jr. became a President. It has even worked fine for the US at the UNSC everytime the US used its veto.

"Lastly, I live in Montreal, very close to NYC.. I am not Anti or Pro-America, I am Pro-Canada... however I do think that not being pro-active about this potentially dangerous situation, may backfire..."

I am not pro- nor anti-america, although not many US posters on this board will must probably believe me. The fact that the US has launched a pre-emptive war without UNSC approval, has turned the world peace situation from "potentially dangerous" to "dangerous".

"we saw it on 09/11, Clinton was very passive withBin Laden, two 110 story buildings fell, 4 planes were hijacked simultaneously... you dont take Iraq seriously, you put yourself in trouble."

And the fact that still today, 8 days in the Iraq war, there STILL is NO EVIDENCE Iraq has links with ANY terrorist organization, doesn't bother you?
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

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