ammunition
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Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 02, 2003 4:25 am

i was discussing some of the issues around the world with a friend and we came across iran and its sactionsimposed by the USA.
I must admit i didnt know very much about iran, and even now, i dont know that much, but maybe some of you a.neters can clear some questions up.
Iran is quite a developed middle eastern country, it has a female prime minister, and equal rights for women, sex education in school (unusual for a predomenantly islamic country) and a health service and education. A reasonably good infrastructure considering its situation (trade e.t.c), a very large army.

In some ways iran seems a lot more developed than UAE and saudia arabia with regards to its equal rights for women and sex aducation in schools.

So why does the USA still have sanctions on such a developed, and what apears to be forward moving, developing country.

Why were the sanctions placed in the first place. Something to do with the Gulf war?

Also what is the iranian situation with the kurds in the south west of the country/iraq?
Saint Augustine- 'The world is a book and those who do not travel, read only 1 page'
 
N79969
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 02, 2003 4:48 am

It started in 1979 when the Ayatollah Khomeini [sic?] held 52 Americans hostage after the revolution. Since then, the Iranian government has sponsored several terrorist attacks against the US the latest being the attack on Khobar Towers in Saudia Arabia. 19 Americans were killed in that attack.

From what I understand, Iran has a system of dual government. There is one that is elected by the people in some form and another unelected cadre of Ayatollahs that seem to block efforts to modernize. It is the latter group that still holds power and is hostile to the US. Until these Ayatollahs are deposed, I think relations between the two countries will be difficult.



 
cfalk
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:03 am

I see that you are too young to remember the Hostage affair.

The Iranian government raided the U.S. Embassy in 1979 and held 50 American diplomats hostage for 444 days. Then they start sponsoring every terrorist group in the world with a will to kill Israelis and Americans. To this day, many of the terrorists in Palestine have direct links to Tehran.

The government of Iran, and indeed the people who elected the government, seem to be moving back towards a mainstream position. But the problem is the radical Muslim clerics who have unlimited veto power over all laws the government may pass, and who have their own private armies and militias to enforce their will.

I agree that there is much about Iran that is advanced. It is the only Gulf state that has a democratically elected government. But as long as you have these unelected mad old bats holding power over the government and everything else, I don't see things changing soon.

Charles

[Edited 2003-04-01 21:08:06]
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
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STT757
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:27 am

Iran comitted a huge crime against International law by attacking the US Embassy in Tehran and taking the Embassy staff hostages.

The US allows all sorts of Countries we don't like to continue to operate here in the US, Iraqi Ambassador to the UN goes out around Manhattan all the time having $200 Pork dinners.

Seriously the NY Post cought the Iraqi Ambassador to the UN dinning on Pork, aren't Muslims suposed to stay away from Pork?
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
777236ER
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:28 am

Christians aren't meant to kill either. Well, sometimes. Well, depending on how you interpret the Bible and the phrase "thou shalt not kill".
Your bone's got a little machine
 
N79969
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:47 am

Iraq has a lot of Christians and some Jews. Actually Tariq Aziz is a Chaldean Christian.
 
Illini_152
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:56 am

Never seen "thou shalt not kill" in the Bible, I have seen "Thou shalt not commit murder" though.

Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
Guest

RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:59 am

It started in 1979

Poor American-Iranian relations actually started in the 1953 when the CIA decided to overthrow the democratically elected government of Mossadegh, and installed a puppet regime with Mohammed Reza Pahlavi as its leader. Reza and his murderous secret police (SAVAK) received tacit support from the CIA, and also training and other support from Mossad.

As to 1979. America (as in the government) DESERVED everything it got in that regard. Most of the people inside that embassy might not have deserved it; but then neither did the thousands of Iranians who were killed by American armed and training secret police.

I really have to laugh at how people go on about Iran sponsoring terrorism against Israel and America, when those 2 countries did the exact same thing to the Iranian people for 26 years (think of it as being 1979-2005).

Anyway, this topic has been done many many times before. But I won't sit by and let people try to portray that "it started in 1979", when that is not quite right.

Charles, I agree with your other points though (some outright, some to some extent). One need only look to HESACO and the Iran-140 project to see that Iran has quite advanced manufacturing and technical abilities.
 
N79969
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 02, 2003 7:58 am

Aviatsiya,

The questions was why the US has sanctions on Iran? The answer to the original question is that it started in 1979.

What did the US government DESERVE exactly that the US government got? Fifty two individuals suffered. I don't see the distinction that you are trying to make.

I am sure that in your esteemed opinion that the Iranian people are getting the fine leadership they deserve under these autocratic mullahs and religious police.

I am not sure why the US would like or dislike a country because of their manufacturing abilities.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:52 am

I used to live in Iran as a child, and visited 3 and a half years ago. The progress the country has made is astonishing - the population is very young and well educated and has made great strides to mova away from fundamentalism despite the religious right (but this is no different to the crazy Orthodox maniacs in the Israeli far right anyway).

IMHO Iran will lead the Islamic world into developing strong economic and political partnerships in the future. Whilst I agree that Iraq and North Korea should have been included in an axis of evil, how the heck Bush stuch Iran in that category (and not for example someone like Syria) is absolutely mind boggling. Iran will come good. Give it a chance. The people are too well educated for it to fall back into Islamic fundamentalism (barring any 'You're evil' comments from messrs Bush and co).

Go to Iran and see for yourself. Fantastic place.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
777236ER
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:54 am

Never seen "thou shalt not kill" in the Bible, I have seen "Thou shalt not commit murder" though.

Considering the Bible originally wasn't in English, you haven't seen either.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
charleslp
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:03 am

Why the U.S. Sanctions on Iran?

It mainly has to do with that hostage crisis. After that Government-backed terrorism (which was probably sponsored by the clerics) kept the U.S. and Iran from having any kind of diplomatic relations. Does anyone remember PanAmerican Flight 103?!?! Most of everyone on that plane never had any hand in American policy towards Iran. Then, a few years later, the U.S. Navy mistaked an Iran Air Airbus (don't know which one) for an attacking Iranian Air Force F-14 Tomcat. Iran "payed" the U.S. back AGAIN in the 1996 bombing of Khobar Towers. That may have made the U.S. place sanctions on Iran.

The reason why Iran is a "modernized" country is because Europe has been trading with Iran and the reason why it has a "decent" military is because of Russia.

I believe one of the Ayatollahs called the U.S. "The Great Satan" and said that he doesn't want any "corrupt Western technology." In other words, the U.S. is, in a way, keeping its promise to not give Iran any "corrupt Western technology."  Yeah sure
 
charleslp
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:14 am

On second thought, maybe most policymakers only recognize the "extremist" side of Iran.
 
airplay
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:28 am

Let's not forget Canada's role in rescuing some of the Americans caught in Iran. The Canadian Embassy hid them and spirited them out using fake documents.

Those were the good old days when Americans held up banners that said "Thank you Canada".

 Smile
 
b757300
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:32 am

If you read more of the Bible, it says a lot more than "Thou shalt not kill." So please don't fall back on the old cliche that people who profess to be Christians should not support war or killing. Sometimes it is necessary.

Ecclesiastes 3:1, 3, 8

There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:

...a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build...

...a time for war and a time for peace.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
777236ER
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:35 am

The Bible contradicts itself everywhere, for crying out loud. To actually live you life by it is ludicrous....
Your bone's got a little machine
 
charleslp
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:44 am

BTW, does anyone think that including Iran on the "Axis of Evil" was justified?
 
TechRep
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:53 am

I agree Iran has made great strides, I think the axia of evil is unjustfied there.

Techrep
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:38 am

As to 1979. America (as in the government) DESERVED everything it got in that regard.

Avi, you're such an ass. You scream and yell and complain every time you think the U.S. violates ANY law, yet you shrug off, and even APPROVE it when a nation like Iran does it. You just lost what little credibility you had left. Obviously, anything done to the U.S. meets with your approval. What the hell is your problem? Is only the U.S. held to a higher standard in your delusional world. Iran committed an act of war, yet you act like it's not big deal.

The U.S. deserved NOTHING in that situation. Fortunately for Iran, the U.S. chose not to respond as it should have. Just stick with your wacko friends at Peta, OK? Obviously, you don't understand jack about anything else.

Those were the good old days when Americans held up banners that said "Thank you Canada".

I'm sure if the roles were reversed today Airplay, you'd still find something to bitch at the U.S. about.
 
Turtle
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:57 am

Check out this web site detecated to daily photography in Iran. Especially, the Tehran area. I'm not being pro-Iran but, it did change my view of what life is like in Iran which I used to think is as barbaric as Afghanistan under the Taliban. Seems to me that this is one of the more progressive of the Arab states.
http://www.tehran24.com
 
doug_or
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:57 am

While he may have said it poorly, I think Aviatsiya was making a legitimate point by putting the hostage crisis in a very important context.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:04 am

Doug_or, Avi made no legitimate points. He's just doing his regular crybaby routine about the U.S. Iran broke international law in a big way-in a way very few have ever done, and he condones it. Had it been the U.S. doing this, he'd be screaming for our heads. He's a hypocrite. Always has been, always will be.
 
erj190
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:14 am

Just a small tiny correction

" ... Iran is NOT an ARAB state ..."

Just wanted to share that Big grin
 
L-188
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:16 am

Correct Erj,

They are mostly decendents of the Persians.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
erj190
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:31 am



STT757

Please remember that the Ambassadors to the United Nations are not ambassadors to the United States.

It was a trade off. In order to have the UN in New York the USA had to accept diplomats from countries with whom the US had no diplomatic relations and had to protect them.

Fidel Castro and Yasser Arafat went to N.Y. to address the assembly of the U.N. and the US had to guarantee their safety.

So, the U.S. allows them, because otherwise, the U.N. would be based in Switzerland and not in the US.

Got it ?
 
Guest

RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:36 am

Charleslp

IR655 happened before PA103. It was thought at first that the bombing of PA103 was "payback" for IR655. I don't buy that theory, nor do I buy the "theory" of the Libyans doing it.

Alpha 1.

Let up. You call me an ass, but you my "friend" are the arse here.

You want to talk about credibility? You are the one who have none at all in this issue, especially with your "act of war" statement. How about looking at the bigger picture as to what was behind it. My credibility is still in tact.

Do you think that one day the Iranians just all of a sudden stormed the American embassy for no reason; for a bit of fun maybe? America committed an act of war on Iran in 1953 when Mossadegh was overthrow in a coup and put the Iranian people thru 26 years of hell. So, the Iranian people storming the US Embassy was not a big deal, when you consider what the people inside that Embassy had done to the Iranian people at large for 26 years. What those people in the embassy went thru was nothing compared to 26 years of living hell for the Iranian people.

I see people on these forums saying that the people in Iran want freedom, when the fact is that Iranian enjoy more freedom than most of the other Middle Eastern nation citizens. They have a young "democracy" which will only strengthen in the future.

I hope that Washington has the balls and do what they have been saying they would do in regards to Iran. You will then see America on its own in its dirty little "war on terrorism". They won't be fighting against a rag tag army whose arsenal has been depleted by 12 years of international sanctions, but against a well defined military machine. And although on the power of numbers, America could defeat Iran's military machine, do you think they could beat 60 million+ Iranians?

You see, the Iranians have already seen what it is when America brings freedom and democracy to their country. And neither side in Iranian society will let that happen again. As much as you could say that Iranian society is divided between those who back the reformists and those who back the Ayatollahs, if it came to the crunch, they would both bandy together to prevent a repeat of 1953.

If I was an American, I would be asking questions as to why Washington is so intent on implementing a certain Jewish group's "policy" in regards to the Middle East?

So what were you saying about me understanding "jack"? All in all, I think I would understand the situation in the Middle East a far lot better than yourself.
 
TechRep
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:45 am

This is what discussion has come to on A.Net. I opt out.

TechRep
 
charleslp
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:57 am

Does anyone besides me distust the CIA? I think we did the wrong thing back in 1953 in Iran. Do you think that Iran would have a better trust of the USA had we not backed the 1953 overthrow?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 11:26 am

Do you think that one day the Iranians just all of a sudden stormed the American embassy for no reason; for a bit of fun maybe?

Do you think-really-that this was the way to respond, Avi? By breaking rules of conduct that the USSR itself didn't dare break? You are awfully critical when the U.S., in your view, does something outside the bounds of international discourse, but you certainl shrug it off and support it when it's not the U.S. Again, no credibility on your part. None.

And was it for fun? No. It was because they had a religious nut running their country. A man who said he believed in Allah, but blashphemed his name by supporting terror wherever it could.

I see people on these forums saying that the people in Iran want freedom, when the fact is that Iranian enjoy more freedom than most of the other Middle Eastern nation citizens.

That's not saying much, is it? And they enjoy "freedom"? They're still controlled by religious fanatiscs, despite their attempts to get beyond that. I guess your idea of freedom and mine is just different.

They won't be fighting against a rag tag army whose arsenal has been depleted by 12 years of international sanctions, but against a well defined military machine.

Seems to me people were saying that about Iraq 12 years ago. And, of course, you're just eager and anxious to see Yanks killed by the thousands just to prove your point, right, Avi? Iran is a better foe than Iraq, no doubt, but still no match for the U.S. military.
 
teva
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:46 pm

The only thing people forget when talking about the context is that, after loosing control of the Shah, the USA (the Carter administration) has decided to help Khomeini, without really understanding who he was. Then, off course, they lost the control, and you have the hostages of the embassy.
It just reminds me of other examples:
Who has created Pinochet? (Kissinger)
Who started to help Saddam to try to correct the Iran mistake ? (wasn't Rumsfeld in Irak in the 80s...)
Even worse: who has "created" Bin Laden?
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
dazeflight
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:55 pm

@ Alpha 1:

"That's not saying much, is it? And they enjoy "freedom"? They're still controlled by religious fanatiscs, despite their attempts to get beyond that. I guess your idea of freedom and mine is just different."

temper, temper, big boy. Your blood pressure already seems to be too high to be able to read and understand. He was saying "the fact is that Iranian enjoy more freedom than most of the other Middle Eastern nation citizens", not that that freedom is the highest developed one and an example for the western world. We're talking about the ME, and in that regard, especially with the usually really archaic society's in that area in mind, what has been acheived in Iran (without any outside "help") is something the Iranian ppl can be proud of. Of course, many things still need to be acheived and I agree that the religious people still have too much saying, but once again, considering it's the middle east and that this change came from inside, it's quite impressive (especially compared to your big buddy Saudi Arabia). If the U.S. now works against that government, it is very possible that the koran school teachers will gain more power again.

We all know you dislike Avi, but to jump on him on every possible opportunity just makes you look ridiculous. He simply answered to posts that wanted to make it look as if somehow in 1979, the Iranians started to hate America, without any reason. It is his good right to show the readers of this forum the big context that so many don't want to see.

And, of course, you're just eager and anxious to see Yanks killed by the thousands just to prove your point, right, Avi?

currently, it seems more that the "yanks" themselves are eager to be killed in the ME.

@TechRep

please save bandwith and don't gather dust if you don't have anything to say.

ciao
Daniel
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:07 pm

Dazeflight, save your comments for someone who really cares what you think, OK? You won't change my mind one bit. And, gee, how did you figure out I don't like Mr. Petaman? Real perceptive of you.
 
777236ER
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:17 pm

Mr. Petaman?



Who knew the JFK was such a violent golfer?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Guest

RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:32 pm

The Bible contradicts itself everywhere, for crying out loud. To actually live you life by it is ludicrous....

Full of contradictions and reworded to suit the PTB of the moment ... such as amending the term "Thou Shalt Not Kill" to "Thou Shalt Not Murder".

by the way guys .. it was CELEBRATE .. not CELEBATE  Wow!

1) to murder, slay, kill
1a) (Qal) to murder, slay
1a1) premeditated
1a2) accidental
1a3) as avenger
1a4) slayer (intentional) (participle)
1b) (Niphal) to be slain
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to murder, assassinate
1c2) murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
1d) (Pual) to be killed


By the way:
And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel,

"Thou Shalt not Kill"


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm



ADG
 
Guest

RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:33 am

Alpha

I really do find it hilarious that you call me a crybaby continually. Usually this type of claptrap which you spout is one you would expect from a crybaby. Let me ask you this. If I am a crybaby and whinger, why is it then that you are such a "valued" member of the airwhiners website?  Insane You very rarely attack the argument but resort instead to attacking the person. Why is that? I don't need an answer, but it is something for you to think about.

In regards to what you wrote above.

I don't neccesarily agree with the taking of the US embassy in Iran, but the American government placed itself in the situation where it deserved that action. Remember, it was the American government which set the tone for Iran in 1953.

Remember the "drama" started as a sit-in by Iranian students, which basically turned into a "hostage" drama when the American government refused to give into their demands. Do you know what they were any chance? They were very simple "demands" and those in Washington couldn't bring themselves to fix the problem which the Americans created in the first place.

I also had a little laugh at your firing of a potshot at the Iranian Ayatollahs for blasphemy against their "god" when every American president has also been guilty of the same "crime". You need only look at Bush's continual "god this" and "god that" lately to see he is bastardising his religion.

And yes, the Iranians do enjoy freedom. They have a right to elect their government. They have a right to travel. They have a right to practice their own religion (within the confines of the Islamic Republic), and talking of the Islamic Republic they also had the right to chose whether they wanted Iran to become an Islamic Republic.

And as to your assertion about me being happy about Yanks being killed. I am not even doing to qualify your assertion, because you really have NO IDEA what I am about; which again I find funny because you say above that you don't like me, but it seems you don't know exactly what you don't like.  Insane
 
charleslp
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:39 am

One question:

Which countries have an embassy in Iran?
 
Guest

RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:41 am

All of them, except for America and Israel.
 
charleslp
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:50 am

Okay then, what's holding the U.S. back from opening an embassy in Iran?

Oh wait, it supports Israel and the "evil" U.S. put the Iranian people through 26 years of hell didn't it? Maybe BOTH countries hate each other. It all started because of some stupid-ass CIA agent, didn't it?
 
charleslp
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:56 am

Okay, maybe I was a little angry when I typed the last statement.
 
dazeflight
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:51 pm

@ Alpha 1:

Dazeflight, save your comments for someone who really cares what you think, OK?

uhh, that hurts soo much. I see, you're not really interested in talking about the subject. For your information, this is a discussion forum, not a "who jerks off the most onto the American flag" or "who pushes his finger the deepest into my ass" forum. With that comment and your intestine tract obviously working backwards allowing you to spit out verbal diarrhea you just show your narrow mindedness once again.

You won't change my mind one bit.

if the doctors already failed to change your mind into something reasonable & useful, why should I even bother to try? I'll ask my neighbors dog, maybe he's closer to your intellectual level.
 
Marco
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:26 am

The Bible contradicts itself everywhere, for crying out loud. To actually live you life by it is ludicrous....

So you're judging people who live by the Bible? When some of us do that about other religions, you're the first one to start crying "intolerance". Hypocrisy? you be the judge. You and that thing called ADG.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
777236ER
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RE: Why The US Sanctions On Iran

Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:31 am

"That thing", ooooo I like that! I think all religions are stupid. I hate everyone equally.
Your bone's got a little machine

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