KFRG
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Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:40 am

Hey guys,
Just an hour ago I viewed "Bolwing For Columbine", a documentory trying to find the answer to America's gun/violence problem. Has anyone else here seen the movie? IMHO, I thought it was too biased to take alot of parts of the movie seriously, without some own research of facts/figures on the viewers half. I guess this could also start a topic on how you feel about our current stance on gun control, is it a problem? Do we really have a problem, when in Pakistan, for example, students threaten teachers with AK-47's? He did alot of comparisions of the United States, and Canada. How in Canada (According to Moore) there is a larger precentage of guns to people, but less violence. I really did not believe the scene depicting the U.S. history in foreign affairs as fair. How could you present a fair and accurate timeline in approx. 30 seconds? What's you opinion of the movie?

-Tom
 
Illini_152
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:49 am

To call that movie a "documentery" is an insult to all the hard working filmakers out there that actually make movies that document real facts.

So much of that movie was twisted, distorted, and modified to make his point any semblence of unbiased truth was removed.

Example:

When he got a shotgun for opening a bank account. The film makes it look like he just went in, gave them the cash, and got a gun. In reality, it took nearly two weeks for the background checks and approval to be made, THEN he gave them the money and they gave him a shotgun.

The speaches with Charlton Heston are complete fabrications as well. First, the dates that they were given are complete lies. They weren't given days after the shootings, but months, and sometimes years afterwards. AND the speaches are faked; Moore took bits and sentences from differant speaches and edited them around to change the intent of what Heston said.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html
and for a slightly biased review (of course, if you're willing to view one side's tripe, at least read the others before making a judgement):
http://www.nraila.org/Articles.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=105


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Mike O'Malley
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KAUSpilot
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:49 am

It has come out recently that a lot of the interviews in that movie were staged, eg ficticious. That said, I did not see it and have no intention to do so, simply because I refuse to contribute in any way to the wealth of Michael Moore.

 
747-451
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:53 am

Here we go again...debating the merits of the fat windbag...
 
b757300
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:55 am

No one really cares about Michael Moore except those that hold the same ideology.

On a related topic, anyone want to bet his "documentary" on Sept. 11th will somehow twist it around and blame Bush and probably fake some of Bush's speeches.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
goingboeing
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:01 am

No one really cares about Michael Moore except those that hold the same ideology.

Not necessarily. I always thought you'd have to get BOTH sides of a view to be able to understand the issue. While Moore may be way out to the left, it's no different than all the far right-wingers who didn't serve in any war (Limbaugh and Gingrich) who blast the "liberal democrats" (the worst possible name to be called) for their opposition to THIS war.

Not getting information of the opposing viewpoint, however biased it might be, is akin to saying "Megaditto's Rush", and taking everything that guy says as the gospel truth.
 
b757300
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:05 am

Actually, Rush didn't serve due to a medical reason. I'd have to go check for the exact problem but apparently it was a legit reason.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
tbar220
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine&quo

Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:18 am

Does anybody have a transcript of what Moore said during the Oscars?
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goingboeing
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:30 am

Limbaugh didn't serve because of a boil on his butt. http://www.snopes.com/military/limbaugh.htm

 
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RayChuang
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Wed Apr 02, 2003 7:03 am

I really dismiss Michael Moore because the two documentaries he's best known for, Roger & Me and Bowling for Columbine, are so full of factual errors that it's hard to take the movies seriously.
 
LV-ARG
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:51 am

Today i have seen the movie and i have to say it it dosen`t deseve a 10 it deseves a 20!
In the 80`s the CIA gives $3 billons to osama bin landen tho kill soviets
09/11/01 bin ladden kills persons 3.000 using CIA tactics

[Edited 2003-04-03 02:57:09]
 
doug_or
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:59 am

I would agree that MM's tendencey to play gast and loose with te facts in offputting, but it doesn't really defrenciate him from extemesitst on the far left or right. I personaly think he makes some good points in his books. Even if i don't agree with everything (or even a majority) he says, he raises a lot of issues that are important and sometimes ignored.
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Hamfist
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Thu Apr 03, 2003 11:50 am

Today i have seen the movie and i have to say it it dosen`t deseve a 10 it deseves a 20! In the 80`s the CIA gives $3 billons to osama bin landen tho kill soviets 09/11/01 bin ladden kills persons 3.000 using CIA tactics

LV-ARG,

So...what's your point??

Are you blaming the CIA for not having a psychic friends network that specializes in making 20-year predictions? Hey, in the 80's, the former Soviet Union was problem #1. At that time, maybe an alliance with a then little-known wealthy guerilla was the right thing to do!

Times change! Can you honestly say that ALL of your personal relationships with family and friends are EXACTLY the same as they were twenty years ago?? If not, why criticize a government(that has seen four different administrations since those days) for change?
 
sebolino
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Thu Apr 03, 2003 11:39 pm

Hey, in the 80's, the former Soviet Union was problem #1. At that time, maybe an alliance with a then little-known wealthy guerilla was the right thing to do!

That's probably a good example to understand the American point of view: no matter what mistakes were made, it's always possible to justify and it has no links with future events. That means that the 09/11 attack has no links with US foreign policy. That's precisely what millions of people don't believe.

Hamfist: NO IT WAS NOT THE BEST THING TO DO, AND FACTS PROVED IT. WHEN WILL YOU LEARN ?
 
Hamfist
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Sat Apr 05, 2003 11:26 am

Sebolino,

If I wanted the "French" point of view, I would find a picture of the inner wall of your colon. You've got a lot of nerve to accuse the Americans of "justifying things" when the leadership of your own country is willing to tolerate Saddam's brutal regime just so long as France and Russia get first dibs on the Iraqi oil contracts.

By the way...specifically where did I say that events of the 80's have no "links" to today? And could you possibly describe for me the "facts" that prove it was not the right thing to do?
 
Dash8King
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Sat Apr 05, 2003 1:14 pm

You should be ashamed of dismissing Sebolino's comments just because he is from france.
 
Hamfist
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Sat Apr 05, 2003 11:54 pm

Dash8,

I didn't "dismiss" his comments. If you actually read my post, you would see that I simply expressed my opinion of the French point of view. Then I asked Sebolino to clarify the "links" that I never mentioned and to elaborate on the "facts" that he referenced!
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Sun Apr 06, 2003 12:58 am

(high fives Hamfist) That was awesome!
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jhooper
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Mon Apr 07, 2003 5:39 pm

Where is the movie still playing? I want to see it.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
jsmith
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Mon Apr 07, 2003 7:58 pm

Regarding this comment from Mr O'Malley

"When he got a shotgun for opening a bank account. The film makes it look like he just went in, gave them the cash, and got a gun. In reality, it took nearly two weeks for the background checks and approval to be made, THEN he gave them the money and they gave him a shotgun."

You have missed the point completely. Irrespective of how long it takes, feel free to name one other country where a gun is offered as an incentive to open a bank account?

Crazy.

 
L-188
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:46 pm

Add to that bank thing.

The normal customer has to go to the local gun dealer and go through his ffl license.

Moore had to make special arrangements to pick his weapon up at the bank, and those efforts took about a month.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
boacvc10
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Mon Apr 07, 2003 11:09 pm

I thought it was a fantastic film. Many comments about factual errors, bias twisted, distorted, etc. without any specifics. I suppose this line of thinking helps to dismiss his message entirely and pretend everything's OK?

And again, the real message about the bank scene isn't about waiting periods, it's, SHOULD BANKS BE GIVING AWAY GUNS?
Up, up and Away!
 
KLAX
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:13 am

That's probably a good example to understand the American point of view: no matter what mistakes were made, it's always possible to justify and it has no links with future events. That means that the 09/11 attack has no links with US foreign policy. That's precisely what millions of people don't believe.



You are the bufoon here buddy! What does CIA training given to Ben Laden for fighting Russians have ANYTHING to do with 9/11/01. Do you think the CIA gave him a map of manhattan and plans saying "Here, this is how you can hijack a plane and use it to destroy the WTC." It is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. Ben Laden divised the 9/11 attacks with his own ideas, ideas that NO ONE had ever thought of before. If anything you think he would be gratefull to us Americans for helping him fight the Russians!!

-Clovis
 
747-451
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:22 am

"right-wingers who didn't serve in any war (Limbaugh and Gingrich) who blast the "liberal democrats".."

As opposed to ultra Slacker and liberal Billy who ran off to Oxford to "evade" his service???


"That's probably a good example to understand the American point of view: no matter what mistakes were made, it's always possible to justify and it has no links with future events"

That's probably a good example to understand the French, Russian and German points of view: no matter what mistakes were made, it's always possible to justify and it has no links with future events...

Kind of like the French, German and Russian armamanets, chemicals, technology etc found in Iraq, huh??? It appears that the Europeans have about as morality as the US...they just spin it better...


 
us330
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:25 am

The best part of the film was when he interviewed Marilyn Manson because you got to see a whole different side of Manson that is never mentioned in the common stereotype of him. His interview singlehandedly debunked all myths and stereotypes I had heard about him.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:17 am

747-451 - Didn't day I was a big fan of Clinton's either...just doesn't sit well with me that two "gentlemen" who are rabidly pro war both found a way to avoid serving in Vietnam. Is being a conservative "draft dodger" somehow more noble than being a liberal draft dodger?
 
Illini_152
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:58 am

Mr. Jsmith,

Name one other country where the people's right to bare arms is a right recognised by their government. I said recognised, because the US Constitution doesn't "grant" rights to Americans. It agnowlages that we have these rights, and that they will not be infringed upon.

and boacvc10,

If Moore makes any points at all in his movie, they are obscured by his tactics and film making. Can no one explain the numerous lies, fabrications and twisting of the truth that occurs in that movie? Just his editing of stock footage is suspect. As far as "general accusations" here are some specifics (from the websites I posted earlier in my first reply. You DID read my first reply where I posted 3 websites that pointed out numerous instnaces of these, didn't you?)


from http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
. Lockheed-Martin and Nuclear Missiles. Bowling for Columbine contains a sequence filmed at the Lockheed-Martin manufacturing facility, near Columbine. Moore asks whether knowledge that weapons of mass destruction were being built nearby might have motivated the Columbine shooters. Moore intones that the missiles with their "Pentagon payloads" are trucked through the town "in the middle of the night while the children are asleep."

After Bowling was released someone checked and found that the Lockheed-Martin plant does not build weapons-type missiles; it makes rockets for launching satellites.

Moore's website has his response:

"[T]he Lockheed rockets now take satellites into outer space. Some of them are weather satellites, some are telecommunications satellites, and some are top secret Pentagon projects (like the ones that are launched as spy satellites and others which are used to direct the launching of the nuclear missiles should the USA ever decide to use them). "



NRA and the Reaction To Tragedy. A major theme in Bowling (and certainly the theme that has attracted most reviewers) is that NRA is callous toward slayings. In order to make this theme fit the facts, however, Bowling repeatedly distorts the evidence.

A. Columbine Shooting/Denver NRA Meeting. Bowling portrays this with the following sequence:

Weeping children outside Columbine;

Cut to Charlton Heston holding a musket over his head and happily proclaiming "I have only five words for you: 'from my cold, dead, hands'";

Cut to billboard advertising the meeting, while Moore intones "Just ten days after the Columbine killings, despite the pleas of a community in mourning, Charlton Heston came to Denver and held a large pro-gun rally for the National Rifle Association;"

Cut to Heston (supposedly) continuing speech... "I have a message from the Mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the Mayor of Denver. He sent me this; it says 'don't come here. We don't want you here.' I say to the Mayor this is our country, as Americans we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. Don't come here? We're already here!"

The portrayal is one of Heston and NRA arrogantly holding a protest in response to the deaths -- or, as one reviewer put it, "it seemed that Charlton Heston and others rushed to Littleton to hold rallies and demonstrations directly after the tragedy." The portrayal is in fact false.


Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting (see links in next para.), whose place and date had been fixed years in advance.


Fact: At Denver, the NRA canceled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' meeting; that could not be cancelled because corporate law required that it be held. [No way to change location, since you have to give advance notice of that to the members, and there were upwards of 4,000,000 members.]


Fact: Heston's "cold dead hands" speech, which leads off Moore's depiction of the Denver meeting, was not given at Denver after Columbine. It was given a year later in Charlotte, North Carolina, and was a response to his being given the musket, a collector's piece, at that annual meeting.


I'm not going to post this man's entire website here, there's just too much there, and many people here would complain that my post was too long, and therefor, not worth reading. Go there, read the material. If you want to form an objective opinion about this, don't just get your "facts" from one skewed source.

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Mike O'Malley
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Illini_152
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:11 am

Oh, and as for "should banks be giving away firearms"

One, as has already been stated, they're not giving shotguns to anyone who comes in and plops down a grand to open an account.

Two, a gun is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. It can be used for hunting, for sport shooting, personal protection, or even as a showpiece. If you see a gun not as something evil, but as a tool, how is it differant than giving away a set of knives? They could be used to kill someone too, but they have OTHER USES AS WELL.

Three, presenting firearms as a show of appreciation is a tradition that goes back hundreds of years. Heads of state, important dignitaries and famous people have been given presentation firearms as a show of appreciation for hundreds of years. While these are often intricate works of art, with beautiful engravings and valuble fine finishing materials, they are ALSO fully functional firearms. Functionally no differant than the shotgun Moore recieved for opening a bank account. And this is tradition is NOT LIMITED TO THE UNITED STATES. Euorpean countries have been presenting firearms in this manner for just as long (actually, longer when you consider that presentation firearms are older than the United States itself)

If anyone "missed the point" of that segment, I think it was Moore and everyone that believed the tripe he fed his viewers. He took what was a traditonal show of respect and honor and turned it into an image of a dangerous gun culture run amok, which couldn't be further from the truth.

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Mike O'Malley
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
747-451
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:31 am

747-451 - Didn't day I was a big fan of Clinton's either...just doesn't sit well with me that two "gentlemen" who are rabidly pro war both found a way to avoid serving in Vietnam. Is being a conservative "draft dodger" somehow more noble than being a liberal draft dodger?

No, being a draft dodger is a problem, and I only find fault that you keep bringing up a point of who is without mentioning the other, since neither party holds the "lock" on courage" or draft dodging. It is just that mentioning it is moot; since war mongering is on both sides, whether it is an aspirin factory or an oil field.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:52 am

I don't believe it's moot. Limbaugh dodged the draft because of a boil on his ass - but he is gung ho for sending men and women (they volunteered after all...boils and all). Clinton doesn't have a national audience to spout this vitriol against those opposing the war. Limbaugh does. My point is that if Limbaugh might want to think twice before spewing about those opposing the war. After all, some might have boils affecting other parts of their bodies that might prevent them from going to Iraq.
 
747-451
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 5:35 am

Clinton doesn't have a national audience to spout this vitriol against those opposing the war. Limbaugh does...

Actually Clinton does as well...all the public spoeaking he does as well as al lthe media attention he gets when he does "utter"....
 
goingboeing
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 5:39 am

Please cite me one example where Clinton the draft dodger has uttered anything portraying those who oppose the war as "unpatriotic". Then just turn on Limbaughs program. Hard as it may be to believe, Clinton is the more respectable of the two, in this case.
 
747-451
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 6:19 am

I wasn't tlaking about what either was saying, I was saying that both of them have easy acess to the public. Limpballs can blather from AM radio and Clinton is equally heard by spewing across public speaking addresses and the media always allows him a mic to blow on.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:19 am

If you see a gun not as something evil, but as a tool, how is it differant than giving away a set of knives? They could be used to kill someone too, but they have OTHER USES AS WELL.

Precisely. But no, it's the evil gun's fault, right?  Insane

While the character probably isn't the best one to quote, Archie Bunker's reply to his daughter's whining about the number of people killed by guns each year still holds true:

"Well little girl, would it have made you feel any better if they all fell outta windows?"
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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DeanBNE
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:34 pm

I just recently saw the doco. There were a few part in it which I thought were great (the assualt on KMart) but overall it only tended to confirm my opinions.

Cheers,
Dean
 
jsmith
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RE: Michael Moore: "Bowling For Columbine"

Wed Apr 09, 2003 6:35 pm

Mr O'Malley, I think we are all well aware of the US constitution containing a right to bare arms. It gets raised each and every time someone needs to justify the continued need for access to guns.

The fact that we do not have such a right in Australia somehow does not make me feel like I am missing out, nor do I feel somehow less safe in my own home or on the streets.

I am more than glad we do not have such a right. What possible good has come out of it in the modern era? Even if the figures quoted by Moore have an ounce of truth, it paints a sad picture of gun culture in the US.

OK, so you have some kind of 'sacred' right to bear arms, but that does not mean in 2003 that banks have to encourage people to do so by offering a gun as an incentive to open an account with them.

Tacky at best, totally irresponsible at worst.

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