747-451
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Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:21 am

PM Shroeder addressed the German assembly announcing the Saddam hussien must be removed from power. Imagine that...a change of opiinion. However, he did not say how to do it. Sure, now that SH is about to be removed, aftert the work is being undertaken without German assistance...
 
Sonic
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:26 am

747-451, this is because he wants to get a part of Iraq (not litterally), because now there is a congress on Iraqi future in Belgium. I doubt he changed his opinion, but realpolitik and actual opinion of politician can differ. Only dictators do whatever they like, democratically elected representatives must try to make it better for country.
 
aloges
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:31 am

Chris, would you mind to provide a source?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
777236ER
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:35 am

Considering how a large number of American troops in Iraq are usually based in Germany, implications of German cowardise or even (God forbid) being like the French would be a bit harsh.

Still, it's the first time in a while people have WANTED German to go to war.
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747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:35 am

Well, it is interesting how all of a sudden he wants SH out, without dirtying his hands. Looks real bad. Secondly, there is also a group of Iraqi expatrites here, in the US, that will be installed by the coalition to act as a temporary government (60 Minutes II, CBSTV, 04/02/2003). France and Germany should not get any preference in Iraq, since they took no risk and supported SH.
 
aloges
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:38 am

747-451: LINK, please! And in the first place, he's our chancellor, not a prime minister.

A note aside: Who was that man in that picture, shaking Saddam's hand? I think he looked similar to Donald Rumsfeld, so what about "flip flop"?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
777236ER
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:41 am

So you're saying the war is about about preferences in post-war Iraq now, not about liberating the Iraqi people?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:44 am

Chris, would you mind to provide a source?

CNN, CNBC
 
747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:56 am

A note aside: Who was that man in that picture, shaking Saddam's hand? I think he looked similar to Donald Rumsfeld, so what about "flip flop"?

Hmmm...the pciture was from before Iraq became a real problem that was fed and nurtured by Germany and France. (Osirac, Totla Fina Elf, Dassault etc...)
 
747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:00 am

So you're saying the war is about about preferences in post-war Iraq now, not about liberating the Iraqi people?

No but since the coalition did the job, those who aren't part of it shoud have no preference. Talking in circles again 777? yawn...  Insane especially since the UK is the other major factor in this affair...





 
Staffan
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:01 am

Opinions change all the time. A few months ago, this war was to be launched to prevent Saddam from attacking America and the west with WMD. Most wanted to get him off power, but all of a sudden there was such a hurry to get rid of him that these countries didn't get the time to agree on how to do it.
Now, nobody is mentioning WMD, just a few missiles, and how terribly the Iraqis have been treated (much thanks to the west), and bitching about who is going to get the best deals on oil and rebuilding the country once Saddam is gone.

See, it goes both ways.
 
Staffan
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:06 am

"Hmmm...the pciture was from before Iraq became a real problem that was fed and nurtured by Germany and France. (Osirac, Totla Fina Elf, Dassault etc...)"

When did Iraq become a real problem? Was it before or after Saddam was gassing Kurds in the 80's while nothing was done by the west, other than feeding him with weapons to use on Iran?

 
777236ER
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:07 am

No but since the coalition did the job, those who aren't part of it shoud have no preference

So it's a coincidental, but fortunate side effect, that there are numerous business opportunities for US and UK firms?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
aloges
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:23 am

"Hmmm...the pciture was from before Iraq became a real problem that was fed and nurtured by Germany and France. (Osirac, Totla Fina Elf, Dassault etc...)"

Ah, now I realise. We made/make all the mistakes, and you did/do all the good things "to the Iraqi people". I won't bug you anymore with my stupid liberal preference for looking at both sides of the medal.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:23 am

Staffan:

"When did Iraq become a real problem? Was it before or after Saddam was gassing Kurds in the 80's while nothing was done by the west, other than feeding him with weapons to use on Iran?"

Yes, that also incluides inactivity by the UN (including Sweden for that matter) and also after the great enrichment of Iraq by European concerns...
 Insane

"So it's a coincidental, but fortunate side effect, that there are numerous business opportunities for US and UK firms?"

Is that a problem  Insane ? And that goes for all "coalition" concerns, since France and Germany have already preferentially mined sufficent profit out of Iraq during SH's period...

 
Staffan
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:36 am

I'm not blaming anyone, just stating that the blame isn't one single nations and that this urge "to help" isn't always from the heart, rather from own interests.

I read somewhere that there were indeed several UN proposals to interfere with Iraq in the 80's but they were all vetoed, same as today.
So, following some peoples way of thinking, I guess certain nations were supporting terrorism then, although it was not international.
 
747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:33 am

"rather from own interests"

Every country has interests and motives. As far as UN resolutions, there have been several, 678,687 and 1441 come to mind that were not enforced.

"I guess certain nations were supporting terrorism then, although it was not international."

Yes it was international and to varying degrees and intentional (to protect those so called "interests" like France and to a degree Germany)

"I'm not blaming anyone"

apparenty you are...and justly so, since Saddam is a whole lot of people's problem, the US, Germany France, Belgium and a slew of others.
 
racko
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:41 am

He simply said that now the war has started, and he now wishes for a fast coalition victory. Believe it or not, we don't like Saddam either, we just thought that a war now was the wrong solution.



[Edited 2003-04-03 20:54:28]
 
Staffan
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:49 am

"Believe or not, we don't like Saddam either, we just thought that a war now was the wrong solution."

Racko,
Unfortnately, to some open minded people, that means you support terrorism...

Staffan
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:50 am

It seems interesting that Herr Schroeder and Herr Fischer are both now saying the same thing. Why? Why now? Why all of a sudden is this being said and reported on? Why? Why?

Is it perhaps that they see that the end is near and the want to be aligned more towards the United States and the coalition? Sounds to me like the ultimate spin.

They say that in the world, timing is everything.

I guess it is.

"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
Staffan
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:51 am

747-451,

Why all the blame on France and Germany? It takes two to agree to something, and when none of them want to compromise, it's boths fault.

Staffan
 
racko
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:56 am

Clipperhawaii, find me one statement from anytime where either Schröder or Fischer said that they want Saddam to stay in power. Just one!
 
Sonic
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:57 am

There are actually three factors on which the countrie's foreign politics depends. Those are:
1.Opinion of the people (in the country)
2.Opinion of leader(s) (of the country)
3.Strategic importance and opinions of other countries
In a democratic country the first one ussually matters more than second, while under monarchy or dictatorship second has more influence than the first (although some democratically elected leaders later starts doing what he wants and some dictators actually cares about people or just does what they wants because they fears revolution). The third factor matters under all governments. Democratic government won't do everything what people wants if because of such decition stability would suffer (this is especially true in third world countries, where "simple" people ussually has very simple opinion of the world and only the educated, who ussually are politicians, knows what the world truly is; that means India won't nuke Pakistan even if people would want that and France won't declare war on USA even if people would want this), while dictatorship also won't do everything what dictator wants (certain dictators could want to conquer the world, but they won't declare wars on every country for this reason). Main reason why I posted this was the following: there is no such factor as "honour", etc. Although if people would want some war "for honour", or leaders would want it, such thing might happen, but as third factor of three mentioned before is the most important (without it any of the first two could do nothing), there could be actually no such thing as "decition to help someone", unless it helps the country otherwise.
 
747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 5:05 am

"Why all the blame on France and Germany? It takes two to agree to something, and when none of them want to compromise, it's boths fault"

Because out of the huge number of countries, they have been the most callous and most hypocritical--especially, since they have vast interests in Iraq which they need to protect--other countries, including the US have dirtied themselves by doing business with SH, those two, especially France withit's unilateralist threats of veto (and no compromise on that either) make them preety much blameworthy. As far as comrpomise, we have had 12 years of "compromise", "negotiation" and "inpsection, with NO result - and now that the end is near for SH, Germany comes across with a tacitly transparent statement for a quick end to war and removal of SH.
 
Staffan
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 5:12 am

What about Russia, and the rest of the countries in the world who also supported the same stance?

Staffan
 
NoUFO
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 5:15 am

Here is one more link .. uh wait, Schröder didn't like Hussein back in May 2002 already:

http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/WH/wh-bush-052302.htm
(White House, Office of the Press Secretary)

And how about this ...
European governments have no illusions about the regime in Baghdad and they understand the opportunities which 'regime change' might open up. The fate of Iraq's Ba'ath Party (and its people) is less important to them than the fate of the United Nations. They're fearful of rampant American unilateralism and the consequences of Wolfowitz's dreams and the UN remains their only means of containing the 'warrior-state'. But this doesn't mean that elites on each side of the Atlantic have fundamentally different interests, just different ways of achieving them.
http://www.europeansecurity.net/Articles/articleeurope_us.html
(European Security.net)

or this ...
He noted that UN Security Council Resolution 1441 calls for the disarming of Iraq and does not call for regime change, as desirable as the latter might be. "This is the objective for which I will work by peaceful means," Schröder said.
http://eng.bundesregierung.de/top/dokumente/Artikel/ix_464596.htm?template=single&id=464596_4317&script=1&ixepf=_464596_4317
(Bundesregierung / Federal Government, Jan. 2003)

Schroeder has always considered a regime change desireable.
You may say he hedged a bet before war started, and that after war has started (thus making Resolution 1441 basically obsolete) there is more straight talk, but he basically never changed his opinion.

Some people here need a little longer to understand that neither Schroeder nor Chirac or Putin ever supported Hussein's regime.

NoUFO
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aloges
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 5:16 am

Well, the war changed things in Iraq, in the UN, and changed the facts. Didn't it? 747-451, what would you do when your lawsuit begins? Change attitude? Probably yes. So why should Schröder say anything else than "I hope Saddam will be removed as soon as possible"?

And about the economic interests: Nobody has a right to stress economic interests in Iraq. NO-BO-DY, and this INcludes Americans, British, French, and Germans. "The economy" doesn't feel committed to strengthening human rights - and why should it? If you can deal with a dictator and earn a crapload of money, why should you hesitate? Ethics? Dream on.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 6:32 am

Staffan,

As I said, there are several parties to be blamed. The behavior of the Russians is to be almost expected between LukOil, the GPS jammers and night vision goggles.

NoUFO;

"uh wait, Schröder didn't like Hussein back in May 2002 already"

Uh, wait, the US has hated SH since 1990...

"rampant American unilateralism "

Perhpas to stave off French/German Unilateralism in the UN. "veto, veto, veto no matter what!"

"change, as desirable as the latter might be. "This is the objective for which I will work by peaceful means," Schröder said."

No 1441 syas to use force to remove the threat; and removing SH is themost effective way. And why all this handwringing about not toppling an evil regieme since "peaceful means" have certainly NOT caused SH to "abdicate"???

"Some people here need a little longer to understand that neither Schroeder nor Chirac or Putin ever supported Hussein's regime"

No but they sure have gone out of the way to "protect" is by not acting on SH/IRAQ clear viloations of UN resolution--asside from the business entanglements--which apparently are calling the shots behind these entities opposition to "war"--guilty of the same exact thing they accuse the US of.

"Well, the war changed things in Iraq, in the UN, and changed the facts. Didn't it? 747-451, what would you do when your lawsuit begins? Change attitude? Probably yes. So why should Schröder say anything else than "I hope Saddam will be removed as soon as possible"?


Perhaps for Shroeder just to "shut up", since any "helpful" commetns he makes now are hollaw and useless.

"? If you can deal with a dictator and earn a crapload of money, why should you hesitate? Ethics? Dream on."

Well, as you said much has changed. And yes, there is now a focus on ethics. SH was partially a US creation (by supportting the ba'athists in 1963) and now we are removing it. And your statement is quite crass not everyone sells out like France and Russia and to a lessor degree Germany and the US.

As far as "dreaming on", it is the UN that allowed it's resolutions to go unheeded.

Quite honestly, I can understand the hestitance of Germany and not wanting to involvethemselves; and I actually support it. I can't think of any other country that has such an intimate knowledge of suffering under a dictator and the costs of removing one. However, Shroeder, the greens and especially Fischer disgust me with their Anti US rhetoric-that kind of vileness is what will make them an object of criticism. Dissent is fine, but the "nazi", "imperialist" and "hyperpower" stuff is just plain garbage. (If we need that, all we have to do is listen to Chretien). We here in the states are well aware of German contribution to peacekeeping and humaintarian affairs. I also feel that relations with Germany and the US will not really be inoacted by the feckless leaders in either country. It is the French who have damaged permanaently relations with the US.









 
NoUFO
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:15 am

747-451,

I have to go back to work, but:...

However, Shroeder, the greens and especially Fischer disgust me with their Anti US rhetoric-

Fischer's anti-US rhetoric? Where, when? Fischer has always been extra carefully IMO.

that kind of vileness is what will make them an object of criticism. Dissent is fine, but the "nazi", "imperialist" and "hyperpower" stuff is just plain garbage.

Ahem, who said that? There was one former Minister (not from the Greens) who reportedly (!) compared (what she falsely considered) Hitler's method of public distraction to Bush's method. She is no longer part of the government.
Dissent is fine is what you say. Mrs. Rice and one Senator said, Germany (world's second largest contributor to UN peace keeping missions) was no longer committed to world peace while your ambassador here in Berlin wondered if Germany's still a committed ally. Obviously high-ranked Americans can say what they want without being removed from their position, but still Germans are "anti-american", right?
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747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:26 am

The fact is that she said it; quite appalling. The Greens and Schroeder and Fischer still disgust me.

"Mrs. Rice and one Senator said, Germany (world's second largest contributor to UN peace keeping missions) was no longer committed to world peace while your ambassador here in Berlin wondered if Germany's still a committed ally. Obviously high-ranked Americans can say what they want without being removed from their position, but still Germans are "anti-american", right"

Yes, those comments were made, you bet, and made after the statements made by the inflamitory ones by Shroeder; and even putting that aside, those words by Rice and others were also made after statements were made by German yand France that any further resolutions in the UN would be met without any further consideration and with a veto--so what.. This goes for everyone in governemtn and elsewhere-if you say something, take responsibility for what you say and the consequences of it.

 
CX747
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:28 am

This War is about ridding the world of a madman and making it a safer and better place for all of us. That being said, lets not wear any rose colored glasses here. Economics always play a part in wars. If your GIs didn't spill any blood then you don't deserve any of the economic windfall.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
aloges
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:57 am

Chris, I know you're a person one can talk to. But why are you so mad at Schröder, Fischer and Germany in general? And why do you think " the "nazi", "imperialist" and "hyperpower" stuff is just plain garbage" coming from this country of mine?

See, most Germans are criticising and attacking George Bush and the US because they are alarmed, not because they dislike or even hate them. For being anti-American, this country is way too grateful toward the United States of America, and its people is way too educated. Educated to look very carefully at everything, that is.

Hence we are very alarmed to see the current US administration do everything it wants the way it wants, caring about others only when they are supporters - "If they're not with us, they're against us". That's pretty exactly our definition of a want-to-be-"hyperpower", so criticism is not garbage, but a signal of concern. We don't want our American friends/allies to become and behave like a hyperpower, mainly because that's never been an advantage to any such power.

In addition to that, we see and hear members of the Bush administration use terms we're too familiar with. War in the name of God? No, thank you, and look at Israel and Palestine. War in order to liberate a people from a dictator? Well, that happened to us and we know what it meant. Why can't the US even try to look for an alternative? Support the troops or shut up? OK, wait, where's that Goebbels speech?

Please note, this is not intended to be an offense - it's rather an attempt on explaining the criticism. Using terms the Nazis have used is not per se a faux pas, but it does become one when you do it excessively and try to sell "democracy and freedom" that way.


"Perhaps for Shroeder just to "shut up", since any "helpful" commetns he makes now are hollaw and useless."

Once I've heard the US was the country where everybody gets a second chance. I think this should also apply to foreign politicians; just as it should even apply to George Bush Junior.

And please, as a last question: Why do so many people get furious about the fact that some French, German, Russian or US companies sold equipment to Iraq? I think that's pure hypocrisy; who in the world of stock markets, annual reports and "profit maximisation" cares about dying soldiers or starving children in the "third world"? To be honest, I don't think any CEO gives a darn about those people. And if he does, it's most probably not only out of charity.

Regards,
aloges
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aloges
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:01 am

"If your GIs didn't spill any blood then you don't deserve any of the economic windfall."

Oh please. If I replace "economic windfall" with "oil", you sound just like the typical stereotype: blood for oil.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:28 am

The fact is that she said it; quite appalling.

Fact is that she's no longer part of the government after she reportedly said it.

The Greens and Schroeder and Fischer still disgust me.

O.k., some 50% of the Germans would not vote for this government so feel free to share their opinions. And I understand Schröder has a hard stand in the U.S. after his indeed disgusting election campaign (which was heavily criticized in German media). But why Fischer? I think he is being regarded as a witty and smart statesman rather than a representative of the Greens.

NoUFO
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747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:32 am

Mainly because of his anti west and anti US (supposedly) past and his loose affiliations with terorist groups in the 70's. (re: Fisher)
 
NoUFO
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 9:02 am

In 1977, Fischer turned away from "revolutionary" politics. Later he called this his "loss of illusions"; he was "terribly wrong", he said.
I consider Fischer a 100%-man. If he's gaining weight, he gains way too much pounds, if he's losing weight he looks astonishingly slender after only a couple of weeks or months. Now he's a 100%-Foreign Minister 100% firmly Pro-Israel, Pro-U.S.A. and pro west. I think this is what counts.

Your President was formerly hanging around in pubs, drinking too much. Now he is hard working for your country rather than drinking and yelling weird stuff.

"The Times They Are A-Changin'", aren't they?
I think it speaks for our societies that we can leave one individuals past behind, forgive and even delegate responsibilities.

NoUFO
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747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Fri Apr 04, 2003 9:08 am

I think it speaks for our societies that we can leave one individuals past behind, forgive and even delegate responsibilities

Now if only and idiot like Chiraq can change... Insane
 
CX747
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sat Apr 05, 2003 6:28 am

Colin Powell met yesterday with certain members from the E.U. and U.N. He basically stated that the E.U. and U.N. will not be in charge. The countries that are currently involved in the fighting will delegate control of Iraq until the post-war government comes to power.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Staffan
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sat Apr 05, 2003 8:42 am

Who is going to pay for the refugees that will flood Europe, as they have done after every war?
 
747-451
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sat Apr 05, 2003 9:09 am

"Who is going to pay for the refugees that will flood Europe, as they have done after every war? "

Totalfina, Dassault etc etc etc....  Insane
 
Staffan
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sat Apr 05, 2003 9:20 am

747-451, whatever floats your boat...

Anyone else?
 
747-451
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Aloges....

Sat Apr 05, 2003 10:19 am

Aloges:

I am seething at some of the commentary from the German Parliament, not becase of their dissention. I am not necessarily for this war either and for many reasons such as terrorism whoch will continue regardless.(since you and I both know from previous discussions, that terrorists are mobile and really have no permananet base and are quite mobile and move from palce to place with ease).

What I do see, however, (to contrast "Hence we are very alarmed to see the current US administration do everything it wants the way it wants...") is not running rough shod (unvorsichtig), but enforcing a concensus that was agreed upon under 1441, 678 and 687. We also aren't acting alone, because 30 some odd other countries have offered support in varying forms from the symbolic to actual forces. I put more blame on France and the UN more than I would on Germany and I will explain. I think there is no other country in earth, other than Germany who can understand what dealing with war, a dictator and action to remove tryanny is all about. I can understand their reticence in not wanting to get involved at all. However, I do not understand how a country or actually the government of Germany, can stand by idlely while a dictator such as Hussein "runs wild" since Germany is a large particpant in humanitarian and peace keeping efforts. I don't expect Germany to launch their own assault for instance, but I certainly would not have expected Germany to be "quiet" either-if anything, I would have expected would be an effort for more forceful sponsorship in removing Hussein, further than more useless inspections. the other disturbing feature was the rhetoric I mentioned. I do expect it from France and to a lesser degree Chretien, but not Germany and certainly not the terms such as "Nazi".

I regret if I come across as "angry"; because I am not. Critical yes, but no angry. As I said I understand AND accept the position of the German government because of where "they are coming from". It is just some of the "peripheral" issues (rhetoric, alignment with the French etc) that is more upsetting than anger inducing. I also feel that the damage (?) to our relations will be minor and not long lasting-since saner heads will prevail and there is a more conciliatory tone between the two governments.

Chris
 
Staffan
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sat Apr 05, 2003 10:32 am

"I do not understand how a country or actually the government of Germany, can stand by idlely while a dictator such as Hussein "runs wild" since Germany is a large particpant in humanitarian and peace keeping efforts."

First of all, up until less than a month ago, this war was all about WMD (that we still have seen no evidence of), and nothing was mentioned about Saddams oppression aginst certain groups in the country. This is now only used to make the "coalition of unwilling", to look bad.

Secondly, if the "war on terror" (which I believe this campaing belongs to), is about freeing people from oppressing regimes, when is China being invaded? Many people there aren't even allowed to leave the country. When is Cuba being dealt with? When is Saudi Arabia being dealt with? Are they even going to be dealt with?

Staffan

 
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sat Apr 05, 2003 1:30 pm

We still have NO evidence of WMDs? Are you smoking crack? Seriously, I guess the last 12 years and all the chemicals etc that have been found are just fabricated?

Also your question on when the other nations are getting invaded are childish and naive. While the best situation overall it to free EVERYONE, we all know that it is not possible to do overnight and that nations are dealt with differently because each is involved in its own unique situation.

As for the coalition of the unwilling, nobody here in America really cares about them anymore. We discussed the matter with those nations, agreed to disagree and went on our way. I only hear the the coalition of the unwilling making noise right now and thats about being included in the rebuilding of Iraq when the war is done. As the little red hen story goes. If you didn't help make the bread then you don't get to eat it. American and British men and women have lost their lives trying to remove from Saddam from power and rid the world of a terrible dictator while the smug German and French folk sit at home.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sat Apr 05, 2003 1:53 pm

We still have NO evidence of WMDs? Are you smoking crack? Seriously, I guess the last 12 years and all the chemicals etc that have been found are just fabricated?

Yah, sure, the Inspectors found loads of WMD stuff after the Gulf War I and destroyed most, if not all of them before they left in 1998. When Dubya shoved them back in last year, they found nuthin. All the 'evidence' Bush & Co presented? They were proven to be fakes...
 
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sat Apr 05, 2003 2:56 pm

Staffan:

"Secondly, if the "war on terror" (which I believe this campaing belongs to), is about freeing people from oppressing regimes, when is China being invaded? Many people there aren't even allowed to leave the country. When is Cuba being dealt with? When is Saudi Arabia being dealt with? Are they even going to be dealt with? "

What do you suggest a world war?  Insane really! Sure right all at once  Insane There is more to setting priorities than being simplistic...



 
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sat Apr 05, 2003 6:14 pm

"What do you suggest a world war? really! Sure right all at once There is more to setting priorities than being simplistic..."

People find it stange that Iraq was chosen, since the whole issues more and more seems to be the oppression of the Iraqi people... Just an observation, but why would you care?

CX, show me a link, and don't say these missiles that had a range 30 km longer than allowed actually were a threat to america, because if a war was started because of those, then this world has reached a new low in terms of tolerance.

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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sat Apr 05, 2003 7:46 pm

"Colin Powell met yesterday with certain members from the E.U. and U.N. He basically stated that the E.U. and U.N. will not be in charge. The countries that are currently involved in the fighting will delegate control of Iraq until the post-war government comes to power."

With such a behaviour you just prove all the protesters who said "No blood for oil" correct. And btw, British companies are already complaining because they get ignored for businesses in Iraq.

Oh, and that's the American opinion. Britain wants the UN to be in charge. And nobody ever said that the EU should be in charge...

[Edited 2003-04-05 11:46:44]
 
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:30 am

The EU has said that the U.N. should be in charge because that allows the E.U. to have a large say in what goes on in post-war Iraq. Also, this fight isn't about blood for oil, but economic windfall does play a part. Take off the rose colored glasses and step into the adult world. Almost all military conflicts have some sort of economic portion to them.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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RE: Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop

Sun Apr 06, 2003 9:25 am

"People find it stange that Iraq was chosen, since the whole issues more and more seems to be the oppression of the Iraqi people... Just an observation, but why would you care?"

Well, let's see...Iraq was chosen because they do have WMD's, do actually pose a threat and SH used terror, gas, torture, rape to supress his people. And let's see, of the countries you suggest Iraq is a whole lot worse than China, Saudi Arabia and Cuba put together. As far as flip flops, the title of this thread is indicitive that flip flopping is not unique to the Americans...Just an observation, but why would you care?  Insane


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