777236ER
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US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 6:12 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2921743.stm

Scary video on News 24 with the cameraman's blood (!) on the lens.
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b757300
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 6:24 am

The fog of war rears it ugly head once again.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Schoenorama
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 6:42 am

Terrible pictures!

I wonder, if it had been Al Jazeera instead of the BBC filming and broadcasting this, what would the Pentagon have said?
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Guest

RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 7:29 am

They just give them fluffy names like "blue on blue" to hide the fact that it's really "some idiot that can't figure out he's killing his own people".




ADG
 
Glenn
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 7:37 am

It's legalised murder

But it's all in the name of Liberation

1 barrel for Iraq
2 Barrells for USa
 
TechRep
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 7:42 am

What’s even funnier is some idiot is judging that person from the comfort of his/her home with little or no information.

TechRep
 
Glenn
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 7:46 am

Nah, we are all presented with teh facts

CNN and Fox

 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 7:53 am

Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
JetService
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:32 am

ADG, from prior posts, you seem to have a lot of respect for soldiers. Why the contempt for American soldiers? They are just as brave and honorable as your Aussie soldiers who also deserve the utmost respect (they get mine, that's for sure). Just curious.

BTW, I doubt the Pentagon gets there info from the media.

To Glenn: I hate to disrupt your little impression of CNN and Fox, but both reported this quite a while ago.
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boacvc10
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:58 am

And still no WMD (remember, the first reason for all this carnage). It would be funny except for millions of willfully ignorant and the thousands of dead and injured.
Up, up and Away!
 
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yyz717
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:08 am

ADG, from prior posts, you seem to have a lot of respect for soldiers. Why the contempt for American soldiers?

She's anti-American.

It's legalised murder

Ya, whatever Glenn.  Insane Not unlike the Aussie treatment of aborigines over the decades perhaps.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Glenn
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:12 am

I give the troops my highest regards doing what they do.

It just seems the American menatlity is shoot first ask questions later. i don't hold that against the troops. Just the Doctrine that is instilled into them.

Jet Service, I don't understand your post. Tech rep made a comment about some one from home making a judgement. I replied I get all the evidence on Cnn and Fox, and you now tell me that Cnn and Fox reported it some time ago. Aren't you saying the same thing as me ????

yeah where are these WMDs

1 barrell for Iraq
2 barrells for usa
 
JetService
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:54 am

Glenn, this bombing was an accident, not a mentality. If it were policy, it would be happening much more ofter. This stuff happens. As for your media comment, I misunderstood. My apologies.
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Glenn
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 10:03 am

I understand it was more likely an accident. Much like all the other friendly fire incidents. Just seems way too common for an army fighting with the state of art technology.

Or an updated road map in the case of the attack on the Chinese embassy Wink/being sarcastic

Surely with all this training and technology, there is a way to identify friend from foe, and if not sure, don't do it.







 
JetService
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 11:13 am

Glenn, considering the volume of missions, one would be suprised at the accuracy if put to a percentage. Perfection would be nice, but we all know about that. I hope it doesn't happen again, of course, but I do have reasonable expections.
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airplay
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 11:48 am

Now I understand the coalition's desire for a short war. If it goes much longer, the US military is in danger of wiping out the coalition forces...

I have grown to question the ability and mentality of the US (not UK) ground forces and the training of the US armed forces as a whole. What kind of clowns do they have behind those triggers?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 11:50 am

I agree with JetService. If you look at it on a percentage basis, the number of accidents, while tragic, are minimal, and probably not outside what is expected. In this day and age of "embedded" journalists, videophones and CNN, EVERYTHING gets put under a microscope.

And Glenn, in a war, especially one with false surrenders, soldiers dressed as, and hiding behind civilians, and with car bombings, you'd shoot first and ask questions later, if you value your life.
 
Glenn
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 12:03 pm

Minimal. at around 50% who is the real enemy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

But yes, I would much rather 100 thn 200 people die, but then I would much rather nil.

The story really is the thousands of Injured Iraqies as well. While they may not be dead like the other few hundred, some injuries are more than cuts and bruises. Some may never walk. some may never see
 
Alpha 1
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 12:07 pm

Are you saying that 50% of all sorties, and all attacks have resulted in friendly fire causalties, Glenn? I want to make sure I understand you right.
 
L-188
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 12:48 pm

For some reason I would suspect that if is sometimes difficult to make out the patches on a uniform from 40,000 feet and at 500 miles an hour.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Glenn
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 2:08 pm

no, about 50 percent of American deaths Alpha
 
JetService
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 2:21 pm

no, about 50 percent of American deaths Alpha

Glenn, that's more of a testiment to the lack of deaths by enemy fire. To put this into perspecitive, you need to look at total missions and how many errors. I don't have the exact numbers, but just to give you an example, if there's been 8000 sorties so far and you get 4 friendly fire incidences, you're looking at an accuracy rate of 99.95%. I don't want to trivialize the seriousness of the errors and certainly not those killed, but lets get real here.
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Glenn
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 3:21 pm

well yes and no.

The American/Coalition have the most modern advanced and well trained troops. Yet they managed to kill as many of themselves as the enemy did.

granted it is is difficult to see uniforms at 40 000 feet. So why fire on them if you are not sure.
 
Guest

RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Mon Apr 07, 2003 5:51 pm

JetService,

I dont' dislike American troops, I suggest you read the previous thread on the stroker in the A10. I'll re-iterate it for you....

There are 2 types of friendly fire incidents. Those that, in the heat of battle that are truely accidents and unavoidable and then there are the acts of absolute idiocy that lead to the deaths of their own people.

I can accept the first type, anyone in the military understands that. But the second type, that's unacceptable AND deserves negative comment. Dont' kid yourself, it's quite possible to identify your target PRIOR to attacking it and to then attack it, but it seems that some pilots don't bother to do that, and on the information given so far this seems to be one of those incidents.

I would have commented the same way if this pilot was American, Canadian, Korean, Russian or Australian. It's got nothing to do with anti-american sentiment and everything to do with the fact that the UK/US Governments have sent their soldiers over to fight a war which in itself is a very dangerous thing to do. These people are being shot at by people who want to kill them, they are doing a very dangerous job. THEY DONT NEED TO BE SHOT AT BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE. The pilots have an obligation to identify prior to attacking.

I don't know if it was reported over there or not, but one of our FA-18 pilots aborted a mission and returned to base without firing a shot, some people (foreigners) complained about this but when interviewed the pilot could not verify that the target did not involve friendly fire and accordingly he did not engage. He was NOT reprimanded for that.

Given that the Iraqis have NO aircraft in the air the risk is far lower to the aircraft and they really do have enough time to assess prior to attack unlike the soldiers on the ground who are at higher risk and must make decisions in a more timely manner.

and this "house mom" spent enough time in the RAAF to know this is a fact.

and yyz, you should try keeping your mouth closed as it would be better if we just thought of you as a fool rather than you proving it every time you open your mouth. You clearly know nothing about Australia and your comments on the aboriginals are ignorant and nothing more than you having a petty tantrum.



ADG
 
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yyz717
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Tue Apr 08, 2003 12:20 am

it's quite possible to identify your target PRIOR to attacking it and to then attack it

This shows how little you know about combat. it is often extremely difficult to identify friend from foe in the heat of combat.

this "house mom" spent enough time in the RAAF to know this is a fact

Big deal. The RAAF employs thousands of people from cleaners to cooks. Your stint in the RAAF adds no value to the discussion of friendly fire unless you've been in combat yourself. Stop bragging.

yyz, you should try keeping your mouth closed as it would be better if we just thought of you as a fool rather than you proving it every time you open your mouth. You clearly know nothing about Australia

Really? Because I dare to disagree with the high & mighty ADG? It's quite possible I could teach you a thing or two about Australian history.








I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
KLAX
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:07 am

I have grown to question the ability and mentality of the US (not UK) ground forces and the training of the US armed forces as a whole. What kind of clowns do they have behind those triggers?

I'd like to see you do a better job.

-Clovis
 
EGGD
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:26 am

I bet he could, you know.

Some of the soldiers i've seen on Television giving interviews seem like cowboys... I remember seeing a soldier just after he had been taken off the front line, he was shouting and screaming, shouting 'hell yeah!!' and 'Lets go back, lets go back and goddamn kill more Iraqi's', not the sort of mentality you really need..

Also, another soldier who when asked whether he was scared replied 'No i'm not scared, we are gonna whoop their asses and I trust our equipment!!'.

Not saying every soldier is like this, I am sure there are many brave and heroic soldiers in the coalition forces, you just have to question the mentality of a select few.

And please don't say that the amount of blue on blue is 'understandable', 1 british news reporter along with his crew are dead, 1 was close to death and his translator killed, this has never happened before.

40,000ft, 500mph, I think not...
 
airplay
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:14 am

I'd like to see you do a better job.


What kind of silly statement is that? I'm not in the military, nor am I an expert in training military personnel.

Why would I even attempt to engage in this sort of thing? My point is that the people whose jobs ARE to train these people are no more capable than I am.

With all the mistakes I certainly couldn't do much worse...
 
airplay
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:19 am

/snip into post above/

This shows how little you know about combat. it is often extremely difficult to identify friend from foe in the heat of combat

Does that mean that if you're not sure what you're shooting at, you should just shoot anyway?

I thought the idea was to positively identify the target before you start blasting away. If there is any question, break off the attack and come back once you've gathered more intelligence. It's better than tossing a coin and hoping the people you just killed are going to be missing at your dinner table tonight....

This whole thing reminds me of an old cartoon I once saw that showed a bunch of guys with blindfolds in a circle aiming rifles towards the center. Do you just open fire?

 
erj190
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:26 am


There are occurrences of friendly fire in most conflicts.

In WW2, thousands of Germans and Russians died because of friendly fire.

In the invasion of Poland there where attacks by the Stuka dive bombers to the advancing forces. When Poland was invaded, there was a clash between Russian and German armies - Although they were almost allies back in 1939.
When Germany collapsed in 1945 one of the great dangers American forces wanted to avoid was a clash between the US army and the Soviets, which were advancing in the opposite direction. That is one of the reasons why the 82nd and 101st US divisions were told to stop in their way to Berlin in April 1945. They could be destroyed by the Russians.

So, friendly fire (strange word anyway) is regrettable, but an inevitable consequence of a conflict. For those that have not been in the armed forces, it may be difficult to understand.
 
KLAX
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:27 am

I'm not in the military, nor am I an expert in training military personnel.

Why would I even attempt to engage in this sort of thing?


And you critisize an member of the military that made a tragic mistake? What if we reported all the times when these men and women gave their best and executed their missions with amazing accuracy. Those don't get in the headlines. There have been...what...four or five Friendly Fire incidents since the start of this war, out of how many missions?
Do you realize that the Kurds and U.S. Spec Ops are operating in VERY close proximity to the retreating Iraqis? Do you realize that these men and women have very little sleep and are flying dozens of missions a week in an unknown territory? Do you realize that Kurdish troops have often picked up helmets and jackets belonging to Iraqi troops to use? Does it ever cross your mind that this person will have to live with his mistake for the rest of his life, and may never get a job if he leaves the military solely for that fact?
The U.S. soldiers are VERY well trained, and disciplined. This is not an army of clowns. They are doing the best they can in VERY difficult situations that you and I will never have to face in a lifetime. Despite the latest technology, people are people. Do you think air travel or flying is unsafe because of PSA 182? Or the Eastern L1011 in the Everglades? These were accidents that were not supposed to happen with technology. In the end, humans make mistakes.
Do you know the circumstances surrounding this incident? The weather? The winds? The time of day? Where it exactly happened?
Nope. You're sitting at your nice little desk, thousands of miles from there, in a warm house with your family. These guys haven't talked to their loved ones in months. They are in a hostile land executing a mission, a war you and I may not agree on. But they are not to blame, and I know that they are doing their best.

-Clovis
 
LH423
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:39 am

this has never happened before.

Of course it's never happened before. This is really the first time that embedded journalists have been used to such an extent. Because so much of this war is about garnering support for it, the use of journalists is there as a form of PR. Therefore, it has never happened before, because we've never had so many journalists on the front line. And the fact that they were killed by friendly fire doesn't make it any less probable that others won't be dead by enemy fire. The fact is, the front lines are dangerous, friendly fire is always a possibility, and it's not a place for journalists. If a journalist gets killed, by enemy or friendly fire, it's because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Airplay: Do you really feel you could do better? Tell me how with such a massive attack by both American and British military forces, we have yet to see a large massacre of civilians or military personnel? Granted, 1 dead civilian or military officer is too many, but the fact is it's war, and sometimes in war mistakes happen. Often, these mistakes are tragic, but they happen. It's part of war. Now, I've said from the very beginning that I am against this war, but I am also amazed and the "cleanliness" of it. The fact that by and large only military and government installations have been hit in Baghdad, and there are have only been a few friendly fire attacks is quite good.

LH423
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yyz717
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:00 am

I am also amazed and the "cleanliness" of it. The fact that by and large only military and government installations have been hit in Baghdad, and there are have only been a few friendly fire attacks is quite good.

Exactly LH423. I agree completely. This highlights the inherent goodness of the American military. However, leftists and other anti-American radicals such as Airplay won't acknowledge this.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
airplay
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Tue Apr 08, 2003 12:08 pm

Exactly LH423. I agree completely. This highlights the inherent goodness of the American military. However, leftists and other anti-American radicals such as Airplay won't acknowledge this.


Now I'm a leftist radical anti-American? Sheesh. You sure live in a strange little dream world YYZ. Who helps you write this "Che Guevara" reveloutionary jargon? Its great.

Anyway...KLAX, and LH423

If you bother to not only read but understand my posts, they are opinions in this regard.

I hear about "friendly" fire deaths all the time. I read comments from UK soldiers about how "cowboy" Americans strafe them without properly identifying the target.

In my OPINION they seem like a bunch of trigger happy clowns. Can I do better? Can the average US soldier do what I do for a living effectively? NO. That's really not the point and has no bearing on the perception that these little tragedies are the result of poor training and inadequate discipline.

Remember, we're still reeling up here about the incident a little while back when a drugged up US figher pilot decided to "liberate" some Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. It doesn't seem to be an isolated case.

 
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yyz717
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Tue Apr 08, 2003 12:37 pm

Who helps you write this "Che Guevara" reveloutionary jargon?

I think you've got your revolutionaries mixed up. Che is on the extreme left, like you.

In my OPINION they seem like a bunch of trigger happy clowns.

There are over 100k UK & UK troops in Iraq....and only a few friendly fire deaths. This is the norm. You are simply using the friendly fire incidents to further fuel your rabid American hatred.

Remember, we're still reeling up here about the incident a little while back when a drugged up US figher pilot decided to "liberate" some Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan.

Canada is not reeling from this. Stop the anti-American melodrama.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
777236ER
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:53 am

Yyz, you can't shout "anti fucking American!!!!!" all the time with no proof. And exactly what does it have to do with a Canadian like you? You seem to be obsessed with defending America to the point of critising everyone else, including Canada. Take a leaf out of your own rhetoric and move out of the country you're so against.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
jaysit
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:47 am

Just as an aside, the atrocities committed against the Abos in Australia in the 19th century were pretty horrific (which incidentally makes Saddam's reign seem like a walk in the park). How endearing of yyz to express such concern over that hideous era in Aussie history. What next? A diatribe against the death of the Aussie all-white immigration policy ? A critique of Pauline Hanson? You're so full of surprises !

Or is the concern just to vent off against an a.net Aussie member in his strange defense of my country?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
CX747
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:08 am

Yet again the "Aussie Posse" rears their heads and makes comments that even a 5 year old know are false. The bombing is an accident, now WSO in the back seat of an F-15E is going to drop bombs on his own special forces. As for the U.S. military, they are best trained fighting force in the world. That is why this war is going so well and overall their have been minimal casualities.

F-15E WSO suffered from "Fog of War" and lack of information during a combat sortie which resulted in friendly forces being killed and injured.

Glenn, ADG and others suffer from "Fog of Life" and lack of information and knowledge which results in absurd posts.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
silverfox
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:01 am

757

What fecking fog?
If that dingbat cannot tell his own counties flag from 500ft. then he shouldnt be driving a golf buggy let alone a plane

Fog my arse.
There are too many US citizens on here that cannot or will not own up to the fact that some of their army is not quite up to it.
Isa brave man to admit he is wrong
Its a stupid one that doesnt
 
KLAX
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:16 am

If that dingbat cannot tell his own counties flag from 500ft. then he shouldnt be driving a golf buggy let alone a plane



How do you know the F-15 was 500ft up? How do you know U.S. special forces were displaying a U.S. flag? What was the visibility at the time? What was the time of day? How close was the Iraqi tank?
YOU DONT KNOW! SO SHUTUP!

In the case of the trigger happy A-10 pilot, I will admit the guy acted like a retard. There are some "trigger happy" "born to kill" types out there, but the same goes for UK and Australian troops.
You cannot judge an entire armed forces of hundreds of thousands of men on the action of a very few. Saying the U.S. Army is "not quite up to it" or under trained is absurd.

-Clovis

[Edit]


Does that look like a bright sunny day with clear skies to you? Looks like a horribly hazy day in a dust storm. I doubt the Eagle driver even had the opportunity to visually identify his target. What if the information he was given by the U.S. spec forces guy was wrong?
We dont know YET so stop drawing idiotic conclusions. This is WAR not a fecking airshow...

-Clovis

[Edited 2003-04-08 20:21:14]
 
silverfox
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:31 am

Clovis

I know because John Simpson,thats him in the picture, said the plane was at 500ft and he is a little bit closer to the action than you or i, and the distance you can see in that picture is more than 500ft.Also they were flying the US flag
On the other hand there are so many of these incidents occuring that i may be confused with another one!!!
 
silverfox
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:33 am

Clovis

I know because John Simpson,thats him in the picture, said the plane was at 500ft and he is a little bit closer to the action than you or i, and the distance you can see in that picture is more than 500ft.Also they were flying the US flag
On the other hand there are so many of these incidents occuring that i may be confused with another one!!!
 
KLAX
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:41 am

You think an F-15 going about 600mph 500ft over the ground (VERY FAST) and the guy will have TIME to look out the window and see what is probably a 1x1 foot U.S. flag?! The thing would be a blur! In that situation I would bet the WSO would trust the coordinates given to him by the Spec Ops man on the ground. Maybe either made a mistake. But this is not a damn L-19 Birddog he's flying, its an F-15. Do you think the guy is THAT stupid that seeing a U.S. flag he would still release his bomb?

-Clovis
 
silverfox
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RE: US Plane Bombs Americans And Kurds

Thu Apr 10, 2003 8:22 am

Clovis,

Perhaps i am not explaining myself properly.
Yes, i accept in war there are problems always have been.
But, with todays technology it should be down to a minimum.. agreed?

Having said that,

The aimer gave the co-rdinates of the tank..Yes?

I assume he is not that stupid to give a target that would be close enough to him to cause injury....Yes?

The weapon is guided by the coordinates..agreed?

The weapons officer puts those in, and i assume double checks them with the chap on the ground..?

Whether or not it was foggy, or whatever, the missile would disregard the conditions and zero in to whever it has been aimed,Yes?

So, either the ground controller got it terribly wrong

The weapons guy in the plane got it wrong

Or the weapon got it wrong

Whichever it was there needs to be a tightening up of procedures once this has finished.There have been mistakes,and its time that lessons are learned from them

Thats All

I can see no other explanation

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