Sean-SAN-
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French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:29 am




Anyone who's watched the shear joy of the Iraqi's today after being liberated from years of brutal dictatorship can't help but feel happy. What's sad is it would have never happened if the French and Germans got their way.
 
N79969
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:33 am

Have they gotten together yet with Russia to have a summit on rebuilding on Afghanistan or did they skip ahead to Iraq?
 
DC10GUY
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:36 am

Ha, Ha, the frogs & the krouts had the oil now its ours Ha hA ....
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
777YYC
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:41 am

Is anyone posting photos of Iraqi children mutilated by coalition bombs?
The eternal question:
Do the ends justify the means?

[Edited 2003-04-10 04:45:12]
 
Guest

RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:55 am

That troop that stuck an American flag on that statue was ordered to *get it down now* and replaced it with an Iraqui flag.

mb

bozo=evil
 
Sean-SAN-
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:55 am

Thanks 777YYC, I forgot. F*** Canada too.







 
airplay
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:10 pm

Sean-San...showing your true colors. I'm glad most American people are not as ignorant.
 
N79969
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:13 pm

I guess we should have left Germany alone since civilians died in the process of removing Hitler. Okay. We'll remember that the next time around.
 
777YYC
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RE: N76669

Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:26 pm

That's where justification comes in.
 
Glenn
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:27 pm

Germans and french can hold their heads high. They weren't needed, and killed no one in the process.
 
N79969
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:33 pm

Like I said elsewhere, the cheese-eating surrender monkeys will scurry down from the treetops now that the fighting is over. I think we should try to reconcile with Germany but leave France out for a few years. Or at least until Chirac and Villepin are out of office.
 
We're Nuts
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:36 pm

Why should I care about Iraqis? Revolution is their problem, not mine.

I want my money back.
Dear moderators: No.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:55 pm

No one should ever be made ashamed of wanting to avoid war. There are times when one must fight, but ashamed of trying to avoid war?

Not logical.
 
BOEING747-700
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:56 pm

I don't think Canada should be Ashamed at all. No one should be. The Americans should be even more happy they can do it with out anyhelp. Just goes to show you that they can do it and be proud of it. I dont give a FLYING F*CK personaly!!!!!! Not affecting me!! Sounds bad but oh well deal with it.

[Edited 2003-04-10 05:57:05]
 
CX747
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:41 pm

The way that the American soldiers were greated today proves that the Iraqi people believe the end justifies the means.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Glenn
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:56 pm

Like I said elsewhere, the cheese-eating surrender monkeys
Oh, you've been in combat, you can speak from experience or just jerkin yuor gherkin to the beat of the drum

The way that the American soldiers were greated today proves that the Iraqi people believe the end justifies the means

Like all elections, the winners celebrate, the losers hide away.
I have yet to see 5 million Iraqies cheering in the streets.
 
VC-10
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:59 pm

What's sad is it would have never happened if the French and Germans got their way.

Has anybody considered that if Saddam had taken the long term view, and co-operated fully with the UN he would still have his country.

Short term he would have lost his alledged stock pile of WDM but it would have removed the US's excuse to go in and he would still have his palace's.
 
Glenn
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 2:23 pm

But then the People wouldn't have been liberated.
Yeah that was sarcasm. Sorry  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
OO-AOG
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:06 pm

Ha, Ha, the frogs & the krouts had the oil now its ours Ha hA ....

No comment  Yawn
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
CPH-R
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:25 pm

Actually, it was the US that was on the recieving end of the Iraqi oil pipielines, but let's just forget about that....  Insane

I think it all comes down to mentality. German cities were destroyed en masse in WW2, and then they lived under the threat of complete instinction for some 40 years. That would explain why they're against war.
 
Guest

RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:37 pm

I don't think the problem is so much about the German & French desire to not wage war. I think the problem is the petty, small minded individuals that feel the need to vilify them for not being violent.




ADG
 
G-KIRAN
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:40 pm

German cities were destroyed en masse in WW2, and then they lived under the threat of complete instinction for some 40 years.

Well,if it was not for the Americans the Russians would have destroyed German cities en masse in WW3.
 
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Fly-K
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 4:08 pm

What an ugly, nasty discussion. Shows again that this forum is the worst part of a.net.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
Andreas
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 5:01 pm

Just in case I want to remember some of the younger members and some of the forgetful older ones about something that happened in the summer of 89, I don't know if anybody is interested but I'll do it anyway, if this helps one person to understand the German position just one little bit better, it was worth writing!

Once there were two German countries, FRG and GDR, the latter being the East German, that is, the Soviet Union-related part, and the first one the NATO-related part, the separation result of World War II.

In 1989 the people of the GDR started something that went into history as the only completely (!!) unbloody fall of an extremely nasty totalitarian regime, that of Erich Honecker (he of the 98% election results Big grin). People went into the streets to demonstrate, the so-called Monday demonstrations, that were started in Leipzig but soon spread over the whole country. Thousands of people fled to Hungary, Czechoslowakia etc. into the West German Embassies and waited there under subhuman conditions during the summer but none of them went back even though the GDR guaranteed not to arrest anybody.
We know today that Honecker and Mielke had already plans set up to deal with these people in a very bloody way, and people knew that (remember 1953?), yet they went out and their number increased and increased, in September there was literally 60% of the whole population in the streets. Knowing that there would be no help or back-up from the Soviet Union this time, as Michail Gorbatchev had already made clear that the days of killing one's own people were somehow over. In the end they bowed to the totally violence-free pressure from the streets and stepped down, and the next thing from the new government (Egon Krenz-led) was to open up all frontiers...which happened in the night of the 9th October 1989 in Berlin, checkpoint Bernauer Strasse and btw was a misunderstanding by Politkommittee-member Guenter Schabowsky who somewhat over-interpreted something Krenz had said.

But it happened, and now we come back to Iraq yesterday: I do understand the reaction of these people just too well, because I was there in Berlin that night, too, and I climbed onto the infamous Berlin Wall and tried to hack pieces from it with a little hammer, and what I saw yesterday on Television did resemble so much what happened that night in Berlin.

What do I want to say with this little story? The East German government was every bit as brutal and corrupt as the former Iraqi gov. yet it was kicked into the drain of history without weapons (I guess Gandhi and MLK would have been proud of these people), the Wall was torn down without hurting anybody and finally on October 3rd, 1990, one of the two German countries ceased to exist. The people of East Germany have a lot of bad experience with wars to "free" people, yet they saw it happen, therefore they don't believe in war anymore. This might be right or wrong, in the case of Iraq only time will tell and NOBODY here does know that right now. Part of the party that came from the East German Citizen movement that was instrumental in those demonstrations is now part of the government, as they merged with West German Green party (Buendnis 90/ Die Gruenen), the party of Mr. Fischer. So basically parts of the peace movement are now part of the government, and this is a peace movement that is NOT influenced by some communist secret service but instead brought one of the most infamous one, the Ministerium fuer Staatssicherheit, down on its knees without firing one single bullet.

I guess these people have a right to be against war and believe that tyrannies can be brought down by other means, becasue they already proved it.

I myself am not a pacifist and never was one, but I deeply respect the position of anyone who did this knowing quite well that his her life was under permanent danger in the streets of east Berlin, Leipzig and Dresden and anywhere else. And GWB should ask his daddy about this, he was US president at these times and during the so-called 4+2 negotiations he was on the German side from the very beginning, maybe he can talk some understanding of why Germany opposed this war from the very beginning into GWB's head.

Now to those stupid little comments above: Why commenting such stupid macho kidtalk, every word would be to much to those braindeads!
And no...we are not ashamed of ourselves!

[Edited 2003-04-10 10:13:58]
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:07 pm

They should be ashamed? For favoring diplomacy and inspections over war?

You're sick to even say that.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
gkirk
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:18 pm

They should be ashamed of not wanting war? Ashamed for their governments decisions?
I dont see there be a need for them to feel ashamed.



Clowns will rule the world
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
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yyz717
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:23 pm

I think the problem is the petty, small minded individuals that feel the need to vilify them for not being violent.

Not unlike the small minded individuals that feel the need to vilify the US for being the liberators, eh ADG? Typical hypocritical logic you have there.  Yeah sure

Germans and french can hold their heads high. They weren't needed, and killed no one in the process.

The Germans and French indeed did kill people, indirectly. Anyone who sought to extend the Saddam regime is complicit in his continued abuses of his own people, including murders, gassings, rapes, etc.





[Edited 2003-04-10 15:24:25]
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
goingboeing
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:29 pm

Gol-dang it - them Frenchies and Krauts ought to be ashamed of themselves for not wanting to turn I-rak into a glass parking lot. Now, let's get them there bastards in Sawdi Arabea, and after that, will kick the shit out of them I-ranians. Then we can send the right reverend Falwell over there and teach them heathens about Jesus and get them women to take them there silly scarfs off their faces and get them to hold Avon and Tupperware parties, like free women do.
 
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Flying Belgian
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:33 pm

Look at the brand new american charity... I wanna cry !!!!

I am proud to be Europan.

Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
Andreas
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:34 pm

GoingBoeing:
ROFLMAO!!! I knew there is a reason for this war: You wanted to get rid of the likes of Jerry Falwell...wow, what a cunning plan to do so!

 Big grin Big grin Big grin
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Sabena332
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:02 pm

What an ugly, nasty discussion. Shows again that this forum is the worst part of a.net.

I agree absolutely! I hope that this forum will be closed sooner or later, a big advantage is also that a few idiots will also left this site when the Non-Aviation Forum is closed because some people here don`t know anything about aviation, they are only here to post crap in the Non-Aviation Forum.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
airplay
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:11 pm

Not unlike the small minded individuals that feel the need to vilify the US for being the liberators, eh ADG? Typical hypocritical logic you have there


Liberators don’t plant their flag in your front yard….They help you raise YOUR flag.

Here’s my forecast for what comes next…..

a) Iraqi hospitals run out of medicine for the overwhelming amount of injured. Food and water supplies run low. Infrastructure such as electricity sewage and waste services are slow in being re-established. Hunger, disease, and death run rampant as Iraqi doctors struggle and Iraqi people languish in understaffed hospitals without sufficient medicine or even bandages. Huge humanitarian fiasco is possible demoralizing the newly liberated Iraqi people.

b) The Kurds will seize the moment (instability, confusion and lack of control) and attempt to establish an independent homeland in oil rich northern Iraq.

c) Turkey will be pissed. The rest of the Iraqis will be pissed.

d) The remaining Muslim communities will try to out maneuver each other in an attempt to regain control of the country. All the while the US installed puppet government will gain growing resentment because of perceived unfair treatment of the various factions. Other Arab countries will choose sides in the dispute.

e) The US announces that the coalition forces will stay on indefinitely to quell remaining pockets of resistance who have now relocated and are in hiding. The Arab world grows weary and further agitated of continued American presence. Spurious reports of coalition soldiers complete disregard for the local culture fuels more hate.

f) Iraq is on the brink of civil war but the “peace” keepers keep the factions apart and “enforce” liberty and justice for all…

g) As the various factions start to group and organize, other supporting countries begin to supply support.

h) The entire region destabilizes further due to various international disagreements. Iran will oppose Jordan and Syria. Turkey will oppose anyone supporting the Kurds. Israel will oppose and condemn ALL of the Arab countries involved and launch “preemptive” strikes against Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

i) The rebuilding of Iraq is put on hold and US investors are pissed because they haven’t seen the cheap oil roll in as promised.

j) The US decides to abandon the humanitarian effort and concentrate on getting the oil fields producing again. The coalition takes a defensive stance…defend the oil.

k) Iraq in plunged into yet another war. A civil war.

l) After years of civil war, one group is victorious and gains power. It vows to bring order to Iraq and regain control of the oil fields. It plans to keep the various factions in line by use of brutal authoritarian rule. The leadership further vows to rid the region of the coalition occupation force…

It ain't over 'till its over....and over and over and over.....
 
rabenschlag
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:40 pm

the problem that some had with this war is the lack of legitimization. speaking metaphorical: for sure, a lone sheriff deciding on its own can do things that lead to an immediately good result. however, who wants to live in a world were a lone sheriff decides what is right and wrong?

taking off my glasses, i easily can see a lot of good things that result from the war. being less myopic, however, i am rather scared.

you know, i am so glad that there are laws instead of gutt reactions that decide what is right and wrong in my country. no matter whether someones moral or religious sentiments sometimes lead to good results - it is most dangerous to accept the intuitions of a few as a good reason to execute power.

again: i think this is the basic argument that was raised against the war by the aforementioned governments. there is no easy answer to this question. i cant see why gevernments or even whole peoples should be ashamed because they try to promote basic properties of legal states.

i think sheriffs with big balls are cool. as long as i'm in the movies.

 
manni
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:29 am

Ashamed, for what? Did the US already found WMD in Iraq, owned by Saddam's army?  Big grin
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
TriStar500
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:41 am

Sean-SAN,
Maybe your home town San Diego has to be bombed into ruins, maybe there have to be civilian and military casualties in your own family and maybe your family must have to flee from San Diego because a foreign army is pillaging its way across your homeland before you understand why so many Germans, who thankfully have learned from the nightmarish WWII, refrain from using war lightheartedly as a political means.

I have learned how terrible war is to all human beings by listening to the gruesome life stories of my grandparents. It is a pity you will never have this chance.

Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
744rules
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:50 am

I fully agree with the fact that Saddam is/was a dictator, but didn't Bush say that weapons of mass destruction were the reason of the invasion and not the oil. They found the oil, but where are those weapons ???
 
744rules
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:52 am

oeps,

looks like this is under discussion on another thread
 
go canada!
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 1:00 am

I rspect the german position more since they are a pacifist country. they always made it clear from day one that they couldnt back a war nor send troops. that is fine.

France on the other hand wanted the 2nd resolution when no-one else wanted it. It is a country with links to saddam and his oil Now france is trying to regain some of its lost ground. It sided with saddam and get what it deserves.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2935149.stm now france is trying to backtrack, it is far too late

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
jaysit
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 1:02 am

"The Germans and French indeed did kill people, indirectly. Anyone who sought to extend the Saddam regime is complicit in his continued abuses of his own people, including murders, gassings, rapes, etc."

Really? Then lets hold a Nuremberg trial for Reagan, Bush I, Rumsfeld, Richard Armitage, Richard Perle, the Board of Directors at Dow Chemicals, and all the other toadies who funded, feted, and kept Saddam in power as he murdered and gassed his populace in the 80s.

Saddam was a murderous SOB long before it became fashionable with the right wing dittohead crowd to consider him so, you know.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 2:29 am

Live all in your dreamworld...

It didn't go about the liberation about the Iraqi people for the Germans/French, but for the way this all happened.

Wait for the long term consequences...

Naïvity on this forum is reaching new hights...
 
go canada!
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 2:35 am

Live all in your dreamworld...

It didn't go about the liberation about the Iraqi people for the Germans/French, but for the way this all happened.

Wait for the long term consequences...

Naïvity on this forum is reaching new hights...


a very rude statement without any agruement to back it up. the long term consequences is that iraq eill be free and other states wont dare develop wmds nor support terrorists.

if we looked at the consquences of WW2 we wouldnt have attacked hitler.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Sabena 690
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 2:49 am

Go Canada, are you serious? You only see this so small as 'Iraq'? Your borders don't go any further?

This is a world conflict, with worldwide consequences. First one is now India-Pakistan. They want to start a pre-emptive war just like America did. Where will it stop?

Djeezes... don't you guys see that doing this without UN support is a huge mistake?

You see that your thoughts only reflect the pictures of the happy Iraqi people. Looking a bit further is apparently too difficult. No wonder you come to that pro-Bush attitude.
 
BOEING747-700
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 5:52 am

I am Canadian and I can tell you this Bro....I AM NOT ASHAMED NOT ONE F_CKEN bit.  Big thumbs up
 
Guest

RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:13 am

French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Some posters here should be ashame of themselves for posting this kind of immature + childish topics .


Just my 2 cents

MASB747
 
Schoenorama
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themse

Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:21 am





Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
747-451
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RE: French And Germans Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves

Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:51 am

Germany:

Of all the countries I can think of, I can understand their reticence in getting involved. They have personal experience with a dictator, the consequences of it and the consequences of removing it. I can understand their point of view. As far a sbeing "ashamed"; that is in their case too strong a word; complicit in selling "stuff" to Iraq that they shouldn't have, yes, but no worse than France or Russia. "Ashamed" only of the vile rhetoric in their election, but then again "politik" is universally disgusting...

Germany is and allways will be an ally; our histories and cultures are way too enmeshed so to speak to let the fecklessness of either government undermine that. Same goes for Canada.

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