airplay
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Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:06 pm

I was watching the news today and saw an awful lot of Iraqis protesting the US presence. They specifically target the US and not the coalition force but I believe that Iraqis consider them one in the same.

The protests seem to be aimed to remove the Americans from the process of picking a new leader. The Iraqis despise dissidents and Iraqis who were previously exhiled. The protests are organized by separate fundamentalist groups namely the Shiia and Sunni Muslims.

In my opinion, this is indicative of growing agitation of the various fundamentalist factions and their desire to take control of the country and bring their brand of law and order to the country. I assume that whatever faction assumes control would be somewhat indifferent to the other faction(s).

Is this a sign of coming turmoil? Can the coalition forces impose an unpopular administration and expect it to survive? It didn’t work before in Iraq.

If the efforts to “liberate” the Iraqis just to give them democracy, result in a puppet government formed only by appointees pre-approved by the US and the coalition countries, then what good was all of this?

If Iraq is left to vote a new administration in a purely democratic environment, what’s to stop them from appointing a fundamentalist group that will maintain a closed society much like past and present groups we have seen in Iraq and Iran?

In my opinion, the coalition forces have done enough damage and this whole situation is headed for catastrophe. And we haven’t even heard about the Kurd’s plans yet! It’s time to let the UN to their job. Like they should have been allowed to do in the first place.


 
daedaeg
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:13 pm

it's good to see that the iraqi people now have the FREEDOM to express their views...i too hope that our men and women in uniform come home soon...however i think we all need to be a little patient...it hasnt even been two weeks since the regime fell...i would hate for us to just simply bomb and leave without giving support to the iraqi people

[Edited 2003-04-20 05:18:05]
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STT757
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:13 pm

These are not "spontanious" protests, the different groups are jockying for position. The US will leave, but not untill Iraq's stable and sailing under it's own power.
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Alpha 1
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:27 pm

The protests seem to be aimed to remove the Americans from the process of picking a new leader.

I agree, 100%. I do not have a problem with Americans, Brits AND Iraqi's being involved in an interim group to administer daily needs of the nation, but the new leader MUST be chosen by the people of Iraq.

The Iraqis despise dissidents and Iraqis who were previously exhiled.

I don't know about that. Chalibi seems to be the one guy that all the different groups want to see, and he's a dissident. Shi'a, Sunnia and other leaders have been bending his ear all week, from the news reports. Most of those reports say he's gotten a warm welcome wherever he's been, but he's being "sized up" more than anything right now.

In my opinion, this is indicative of growing agitation of the various fundamentalist factions and their desire to take control of the country and bring their brand of law and order to the country.

As it should be. The agitation isn't so much directed at the Americans because they are Americans-I think the agitation would be equally as great if these were Russian troops, or European troops, or whatever. Most of the protesters I've seen and heard say, basically, that "we're thankful the Americans got rid of Saddam, now, we want them to leave as quickly as possible." That would be the best scenario for the Coalition, for Iraq, and for the entire region, in my estimation.

Is this a sign of coming turmoil?

Of course there will be turmoil. You don't get rid of generations of oppressive government and replace it with a full-fledged democracy overnight. There will be turmoil and strife, but if the Iraqi's can have some patience, they could help to alter the course of how people are governed in the region. To think that turmoil won't be a part of this, is a bit naive.

If Iraq is left to vote a new administration in a purely democratic environment, what’s to stop them from appointing a fundamentalist group that will maintain a closed society much like past and present groups we have seen in Iraq and Iran?

If that's what they choose, then the U.S. and the west should say "God Bless you, what kind of aid and assistance can we give to help you succeed." Had we done that with Castro back in 1959, we might not have had a lifelong American enemy, but someone, at best, who was a neutral. Same for this. If they choose an Islamic government, on the lines of what Iran is right now, the hand of friendship should still be extended to them.

In my opinion, the coalition forces have done enough damage..

Despite the turmoil there now, I suspect, if polling took place, you'd find an overwhelming majority of Iraqi's who would say that ANYTHING is better to the brutal dictatorship of Saddam, so in that light, I don't think coalition forces have done the kind of damage you're trying to claim here. That damage COULD, and probably will materialize, if forces remain in place longer than needed.

It’s time to let the UN to their job. Like they should have been allowed to do in the first place.

I wish I had your faith in the U.N, but I do not. Left to them, and despite my opposition to this war commencing when it did, we'd be back to indefinite timetables, drawing continuous lines in the sand, and, in general, an even more fucked up situation. Don't think so? All you have to do is recite "12 years, and 17 resolutions", to get to that conclusion.

Eventually, we would have gotten to this point, in some shape or form. And I'm still convinced that the U.N. would have, if they could, gone another few years and another 6 or 7 resolutions before they finally did anything. I would have taken another 6 months to a year, with a final, no-mistake-about-it resolution telling Sadam to either comply, or be history. But we're beyond that now. It's time for all interested parties to do their damndest to make the hand that has been dealt to work.
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:29 pm

Also Airplay, the Sunni's have a LOT to lose in this new government - remember Saddam is (was) a Sunni Muslim and his regime persecuted the Shiia Muslims so, human nature dictates that they would be against anything that might put them in a position to be retaliated against (something that is VERY likely to happen). The shoe's on the other foot now and, since the Sunni's are the minority, but have enjoyed the power of a dictator brutally on "their side" for so many years, they have major cause for trepidation from the government that the US will help stabilize. I don't doubt they are scared and against this government!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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Jj
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:38 pm

Let's not forget that a lot of people actually prospered with Saddam's government, so, it doesn't surprise me that a huge quantity of people are against this invasion. I think that the US and UK should stand away, and let the Iraqis choose their gvernor in a democratical manner and after that, ONLY AFTER A GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN CHOSEN, establish relations with the "new" country.

But don't expect them to do just as we occidental people do. Their culture is completely different than ours, so they may not proceed just as you would espect. I'm sure that keeping a certain order in the region, they are very capable to do this their way and choose what's best for them, which, after all, is one of the objectives of this whole war.
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:50 pm

Contrary to what was being bandied about in the media (and even the administration), this military action was about one thing. (I'll give you a hint: It starts with a "W," and ends with an "M" and a "D.") And Hussien forced us to eliminate his regime to accomplish our task. And what kind of nation would we be if we eliminated a countries government, and then left them to fend for themselves? I am truly happy for the Iraqi people--they have their freedom now. But let's remember that this was not a benevolent action, it was a defensive one.

-Normal
 
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:55 pm

NormalSpeed, if it's all about WMD's, then where the hell are the WMD's? We've seen hints that they're there, but nothing yet.

More time is needed, but, as far as I'm concerened, Bush had better hope to hell they're found, or else he'll hear about it. Of course, he's already changed his tune several time: first it was about WMD's, then it was about "regime change", and then it was about freeing the Iraqi people and bringing democracy. Which one is it? Or is it whatever suits Bush at the moment?
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:56 pm

And what kind of nation would we be if we eliminated a countries government, and then left them to fend for themselves?

Dunno, go ask those in Afghanistan  Laugh out loud
 
BarfBag
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 1:00 pm

There's a power struggle going on in Iraq now. The Shia's who are 60% of the population, see themselves as the rightful leaders of the country. However they do not trust the US much, having risen in revolt during the 1991 war after the US told them it was going to bring down Hussein's government then. Nothing of the sort happened, and Hussein brutally liquidated the Shia revolters after the war, causing them to be deeply mistrustful of anything the U.S. tells them now. If the next leader of Iraq were to be a Sunni (like Saddam was), especially one set up by the U.S., there will most likely be continued strife in Iraq.

Further, the Saudis would probably not like Shias in power, because they are members of the opposing Sunni/Wahhabi sect of Islam, and would rather deal with an Iraqi leader from the 20% Sunni minority in Iraq. The U.S. probably also fears that the Iraqi Shias may be overly influenced by the Shia leaders of Iran. Iran and Iraq are the only two Shia-majority states in the middle-east, AFAIK. Its possible the U.S. fears Iraq would become a theocratic Shia-dominated state on the lines of Iran, with the rulers bearing enmity towards the U.S. because of past betrayal.

In addition there are the Kurds, who constitute another ~20% of the population. Turkey would oppose any move to have an independent Kurdish state in northern Iraq, something which would be financially viable because of the huge oil reserves there, and perhaps something the U.S. is not averse to as it would give them another friendly oil-rich state in the region. However Turkey would not stand the idea of an independent Kurdish state on their border, which would worsen the discontent among their own Kurdish population. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out. There are powerful conflicting interests at play. I don't think the region is going to see stable democratic administration for a while, if at all.
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 1:29 pm

"We've seen hints that they're there, but nothing yet."

See, that's just the thing. I'm convinced that they are (or were) in Iraq, whether they are found or not. Intelligence data indicated that WMDs were in the hands of a psychopath, and I'm satisfied with that. I trust the military. I'm not what you could call a "Bush follower," (you could definitely call me a Powell follower, however) but please, give him at least a little more credit than that. One does not wager an entire political career on a paper tiger. The UN inspectors didn't find anything either.

"Bush had better hope to hell they're found, or else he'll hear about it."

But see, he'd hear about it, from you anyway, no matter what. You've made up your mind already, have you not?


"Of course, he's already changed his tune several time: first it was about WMD's, then it was about "regime change", and then it was about freeing the Iraqi people and bringing democracy. Which one is it? Or is it whatever suits Bush at the moment?"

Like I said, I'm not what you could call a "Bush follower." This seems a little fishy to me as well. However, name one politician that hasn't used the "spin-machine" to his benefit. (Yeah, I think Algore claimed to have invented the "spin-machine.") The war was about WMDs. Iraqi freedom was a biproduct.

-Normal


 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 1:36 pm

Actually it was our Prime Minister that suggested a Federal style of parliament / government for the Iraqi's. One that would take in all of the different groups allowing them to form different states and settlements.

Given the nature of the different ethnic groups, so long as they are equally represented and have their own autonomous region under a federal parliaments I can see this a being a formative and good thing for them.

mb
 
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 1:38 pm

Dunno, go ask those in Afghanistan

If you noticed, smart boy, we haven't left Afghanistan.

You only seem to show up to say something ridiculously negative.

But see, he'd hear about it, from you anyway, no matter what. You've made up your mind already, have you not?

Absolutely not, NormalSpeed. I was of the belief that the WMD's were in Iraq. Yet as more time will go on, and if they're not found, then what Bush said is just a lie, and an excuse to invade a nation with a leader he (and the rest of us, in fairnes), didn't like.

If they're found not to be there, then this whole war was a sham to further other agenda.
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 1:38 pm

"Given the nature of the different ethnic groups, so long as they are equally represented and have their own autonomous region under a federal parliaments I can see this a being a formative and good thing for them."

Agree 100%


-Normal

 
jaysit
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 1:41 pm

Lets face it: the United States is the victor in this war, and we had better start acting with the grandeur and the calculated humility that goes with being a victor. This war was fought for a number of clandestine and not-so-clandestine reasons, but one purported reason was that Iraq was a fundamental threat to the safety of the United States. Destroying the civil administration of a country and then leaving it in ruins will only enhance the danger Iraq may eventually pose to the US. Thus, leaving Iraq with a viable civil administration is one of the most important tasks for the US now. Remember that elections are not the only determinant of a viable democracy - a safe, civil government that enables a country to step out of its destruction and rebuild itself (as well as the voting institutions necessary to carry out the task of elections) is the first necessary factor. The Japanese and the Germans didn't go to the polls as soon as the bombings in Dresden or Tokyo stopped - there was other work to be done.

Right now in Iraq, the fundamentalist mullahs in the Shia and Sunni communities are jockeying for power. The US should deal with them with an authoritaive combination of carrot and stick. Currently, if their noisy demands are met, what they will produce for Iraq is hardly a democracy, nor a regime that will help stabilize the Middle East. So we are there for the long haul. And the new American conquerors have to be benign administrators, not conquistadors: Speak softly and carry a big stick. Democracy in a troubled land does not come cheap, and it does not come at the end of the barrel of a gun. What came out of the latter was merely the end of a fascist regime. This does not guarantee the birth of democracy. So we have to stay and ensure that Operation Iraqi Freedom ends up meeting its goals. And the hell with the House of Saud demanding that American troops leave. Perhaps, US troops should leave Saudi Arabia too. That would have the entire Saudi royal family sweating in their disha dashas, air-conditioned Mercedes cars or not.
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 1:41 pm

Given the nature of the different ethnic groups, so long as they are equally represented and have their own autonomous region under a federal parliaments I can see this a being a formative and good thing for them.

Mx, maybe we should send you to the talks in Baghdad, trying to put the post-war government together.  Big thumbs up

That's a excellent point, and you're dead-on in your observation.

Lets face it: the United States is the victor in this war, and we had better start acting with the grandeur and the calculated humility that goes with being a victor.

Part of that should extend to the region in general. This idiotic tactic of rattling the sabre at Syria is just that-idiotic. Syria doesn't need a sabre rattled at them. They saw what we just did, and they don't want any of that, I suspect. Instead, Bush should have put out an olive branch to the region by saying "we have differences, but what can we do, TOGHETHER, to make Iraq a better place?". But, as seems to be the Bush M/O, he tries to get ballsy and rattle the sword first and foremost.

[Edited 2003-04-20 06:44:31]
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:12 pm

If you noticed, smart boy, we haven't left Afghanistan.

Actually, Mr Know-it-all, American troops might still be in Afghanistan, but they are there serving American interests, not Afghani ones.

Maybe you should read the news a bit more regularly and just see how scathing Karzai (the American appointed leader of Afghanistan) has been of Washington in recent weeks.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:20 pm

If the efforts to “liberate” the Iraqis just to give them democracy, result in a puppet government formed only by appointees pre-approved by the US and the coalition countries, then what good was all of this?

If nothing else, it got rid of Saddam and his thuggish sons. If the Iraqis blow this golden opportunity to establish a true democracy & fall back on tyranny, they only have themselves to blame. The US has done them a great favour in deposing Saddam.....the rest is largely up to them.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:27 pm

"...and if they're not found, then what Bush said is just a lie, and an excuse to invade a nation with a leader he (and the rest of us, in fairnes), didn't like."

Agreed.

-Normal

 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:29 pm

yyz717 says:

"""If nothing else, it got rid of Saddam and his thuggish sons. If the Iraqis blow this golden opportunity to establish a true democracy & fall back on tyranny, they only have themselves to blame. The US has done them a great favour in deposing Saddam.....the rest is largely up to them."""

Thats a load of bollocks my friend. Deposing SH is one thing, but creating peace and stability in a region that has a historical background of difference is another and a task the allies have to take with great care and caution.

Simply removing SH is not going to solve the deeper problems.

The allies have a great opportunity here to avoid conflict of interest and set up an ideal middle eastern state that perhaps many other Arab nations can look upon and move forward to what we call in our respective *Western* nations true democracy.

Education, the redistribution of wealth and the removal of abject poverty is the way forward.

But we must educate ourselves in our Arab friends history, nature, religion and general beliefs before we march in there and start changeing things. It is hoped that we have done this already and are making some moves forward in that respect. So far I have seen very little of that.

mb
 
cfalk
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:35 pm

Avi,

You are right. The U.S. is being critisized about it's desire to let Afganis govern themselves, something that they seem unable to do.

Iraq's neigboring countries, including Saudi Arabia, have now suddenly realized what Bush is up to - bringing about a fundemental paradigm shift within the Arab world. Now they are scared, because they all are based on dictatorships, absolute monarchies, or religious persecution.

This war was not about oil. It is about sending a massive jolt through a region of the world which has so far been a quagmire of violence, religious and cultural hatred, and immense riches being hoarded by the very few. Such a jolt just might break the situation loose enough to allow the Middle East of 2100 to be perhaps as modern and democratic as Europe is today. Of course this is the LAST thing the Arab governments want to see, and their propaganda tries to spoil the road for their own people.

The history books will decide whether this strategy will have worked. But Bush has definately made one of the greatest gambles in the history of politics.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:35 pm

I don't disagree with you MX5-boy, that's why I said "if nothing else".

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
eg777er
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:04 pm

From a Bahraini perspective, we have our own problems with the Sunni/Shia mix. Our government, or should I say, 'ruling family', is Sunni, but 70% (IIRC) of the population is Shia, and they are discriminated against severely - limited government employment, none in the police/army etc.

Bahrain has made great strides towards democracy, particularly in the last 2 years. However, the Sunni/Shia question is one that still has to be addressed, and no-one quite knows the answer. Hopefully, people will forget their differences and form into a government of national unity. But that may not happen.

In the case of Iraq, I would be extremely wary on breaking up the country into quasi-independent federal states. The national and territorial integrity of Iraq must be secured - and making a federal state upon ethnic boundaries will only degrade the national identity.

Consider an Iraq of 3 'states' - Kurd, Shia and Sunni. All will be weak. The Shia area will quickly come to the attention of a possibly expansionist Iran. The Sunni's will run scared into the arms of the Saudis. The Kurds demand a fully independent state (and with the US predeliction for self-determination, how could they stop them?), which Turkey strongly resists. Iraq collapses, and the Iranian border comes within a short drive of 25% of the world's oil......

A nightmare scenario, that'll take some care to avoid.
 
L-188
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:07 pm

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:06 pm

Well what a surprise....



ADG
 
L-188
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:24 pm

Well if it makes you feel any better.

Word on the street is that Incerlik AB is Turkey is starting to look like a ghost town.

All the fighters that where based there to enforce the northern no-fly zone have bailed for other parts of the sky.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 9:47 pm

Eg777er makes a great point,

Independent yet Federal states in Iraq is an easily achievable thing. The impossible thing is to try and make a universal Iraq an example. This is where us as allies need to tread the thin line and make sure that the federal system works and is indeed a true ideal for the region.

We cannot expect a group of people that have been there for thousands of years to all of a suddenly adapt to a modern western style of government that most of us here are used to. It takes time and generational involvement.

A place for me a place for you will work.

Making sure that each region of Iraq has an equal share of the countries resources is a huge start and it must not be rebuilt by different allies but in a together fashion that makes sure egocentrics doesn't stifle these people.

mb
 
eg777er
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:03 pm

Exactly right mb. This was why I found Bush's demand that the Palestinians adopt democracy as a precondition for talks ludicrous. How can countries suddenly 'adopt' democracy of their own volition, in a region where it has never flourished and the majority of the regions governments actively oppose it!?

The Middle East is where tribalism rules. Managing that, and avoiding the 'lines in the sand' approach of Western powers of decades past, will be the key challenge for the international community in the coming years.
 
Hepkat
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:32 pm

From a psychological point of view, you simply can't force democracy on a people. Democracy, separation of church and state, industrialization, due process, rights of the individual, and all those other wonderful western "inventions" took centuries to evolve and finally become a part of the national consciousness. Each event has its own prerequisites which must be met with complete success before any advancement can be made. We in the west have had hundreds of years of social evolution and turmoil which has led to the system we have today. Although well intentioned, successive American administrations have failed and will continue to fail in their efforts to impose democracy because of their short-sidedness, and some may say, arrogance, in believing that a people, irregardless of their stage of social evolution, will simply adapt to democracy at our command.

Our efforts in Iraq, unfortunately, will therefore fail.

 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:55 pm

If we take your defetest stance, Hepkat, and don't even TRY to make it work, then we're sure to fail. Maybe it will, but I think we should give the effort a chance before descending like an "I-told-you-so" lynch mob on the place.
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:06 pm

"We in the west have had hundreds of years of social evolution and turmoil which has led to the system we have today... Our efforts in Iraq, unfortunately, will therefore fail."

One thing, Hep: We in the west had to start somewhere. Iraqi representative government will not assume an American likeness today, tomorrow, or even next year. How does the saying go? "Rome wasn't built in a day." And neither was Baghdad rebuilt. I do not think we should declare immediate or imminent failure just because the budding Iraqi government experiences a few growing pains.


-Normal
 
airplay
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:31 pm

But don't expect them to do just as we occidental people do. Their culture is completely different than ours, so they may not proceed just as you would espect

Excellent point that I don't think Bush has considered or even is aware of. I don't think he understands that not everyone in the world is ready or willing to adopt the American way of life. It's great for Americans, but it's not a "one size fits all" ideal.

Contrary to what was being bandied about in the media (and even the administration), this military action was about one thing. (I'll give you a hint: It starts with a "W," and ends with an "M" and a "D.") And Hussien forced us to eliminate his regime to accomplish our task.

If this was the intent, then why not go after a country that was truly an immediate threat to the US? I don't doubt that there is *something* in Iraq that can be found and construed as either a WMD directly or evidence of the manufacture of WMDs. But tell me what country in the world you *wouldn't* find this sort of evidence? I bet the list would contain a few developing nations and others that are too poor to even feed themselves. And how did Saddam "force" Bush's and Blair's hand?

Given the nature of the different ethnic groups, so long as they are equally represented and have their own autonomous region under a federal parliaments I can see this a being a formative and good thing for them.

It may prove to be impossible. In my opinion, the region was not ready for democracy and thrusting it upon them is just going to result in failure.

If nothing else, it got rid of Saddam and his thuggish sons. If the Iraqis blow this golden opportunity to establish a true democracy & fall back on tyranny, they only have themselves to blame. The US has done them a great favour in deposing Saddam.....the rest is largely up to them.

Again, in my opinion, the whole "democracy" concept is a truly foreign idea to many Iraqis. Furthermore, they tend to be more aligned with religious fundamentalism than to new-age politics and progressive policy.

 
airplay
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:33 pm

One thing, Hep: We in the west had to start somewhere. Iraqi representative government will not assume an American likeness today, tomorrow, or even next year.

Is that really what we want? American is good for Americans. It doesn't mean that it's good for everyone.
 
Hepkat
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:26 am

If we take your defetest stance, Hepkat, and don't even TRY to make it work, then we're sure to fail. Maybe it will, but I think we should give the effort a chance before descending like an "I-told-you-so" lynch mob on the place.

In order for democracy and other western machinaries to be successfully accepted and adapted, there's a long list of social prerequisites that MUST be met, chief among those are a meaningful degree of separation of church and state, the subjugation of ecclesiastic to philosophical and secular thought and the unification of autonomous tribes by a conquering centralized power willing to accept and honor some sort of Magna Carta, i.e., governance for and by the people. The U.S. might have the will but not the magic to affect such monumental changes in the space of a few decades.

Far from being defeatist, I'm actually adopting a realistic and tolerant approach; tolerant in the sense that I don't believe we need to "try", as you put it, to make anything work. When they're ready and when they've achieved the necessary prerequisites, they will evolve on their own to a system of freedom in keeping with their own culture and way of life, just as we have. Our only role in all this should be that of the good friend, i.e., to gently nudge them in the right direction, not to impose our own views by force.

We must learn to live and let live if we're going to achieve any measure of lasting peace in this world.



[Edited 2003-04-20 17:27:53]
 
donder10
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:03 am

The problem with turning Iraq into a democracy is that the allies will have such a short honeymoon period before things turn sour and they are viewed as occupiers not liberators.This combined,with the tense issue of acheiving a balance of power between the 3 main ethnic groups,makes it one of the hardest geopolitical balancing acts for a while.If the new government works then it could prove a catalyst for the region as people in neighbouring countries will surely watch Iraq's success on Al Jazeera and other satellite channels.
But in some ways,because the people have been repressed in the region for so long,lifting the lids off may merely realise emotions that could make the situation even worse.The clash between geopolitical interests,talk and actions needs to be made more consistent with the West with more attention solving the Israel/Palestine conflict as a prerequisite-both sides have been making a great deal of piecemeal actions lately without any real action.

With regards to the sabre-rattling towards Syria,this is nothing more than a proactive warning (or reactive if Syria has really been harbouring members of the Saddam regime)to Syria to not interfere in Iraq's short to medium-term future which also explicity by diplomatic standards(ie explicitly-implicitly)is a warning to Iran.
 
CX747
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Aviatsiya

Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:51 am

Aviatsiya: Actually the U.S. military is still present in Afghanistan and working to make it a better place. U.S. special forces actually act as security for the leader. So, we are still there.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:25 am

The separate but together system as suggested above actually works in America by the way, each state have their own local governments who govern the state and are answerable to the federal government and very distinct lines are drawn with regards to responsibility.

This is also how it works in Australia as well.

It sounds perfectly reasonable to segment Iraq into three "states" or "jurisdictions" each self governing with a Federal Government overseeing them with equal representation from each "state".




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jhooper
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:04 am

I've seen the protests on CNN:

They're saying "No to America, No to Saddam, our reconstruction will be Islam!"

America got rid of Saddam! Don't they realize that if America hadn't done what they did, they'd still have Saddam to deal with! So, at least in the interim, they can't have it both ways. I understand their struggle for power, but why don't they show a little gratitude that at least now they have the freedom to protest. America will leave as soon as our work is done and weapons of mass destruction are disarmed. If we leave now, Iraq's reconstruction will be a disaster. Give America a chance to give a better future to the people of Iraq. We couldn't care less about imposing Christian values on Iraq, so I hope they don't assume that we're trying to change their religious beliefs.

Whether America is ultimately successful will depend on the new few months. Britain once occupied Iraq, and look at where they ended up. We need to change the fundamental cultural framework which makes it possible for tyrants like Saddam to raise to power. The "war" was the easy part.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Hepkat
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:21 am

We need to change the fundamental cultural framework which makes it possible for tyrants like Saddam to raise to power.

Oh God, isn't anyone listening?!?!? You CAN'T change a culture, it evolves on its own! Don't you understand that this is precisely the type of arrogance (however well-intentioned) that constantly gets the U.S. into trouble with other countries?

It seems as if we never learn. "Geez, that country looks pretty bad. Let's bring them our enlightened, American brand of democracy. They'll thank us, we'll trade billions, afterwhich we'll all hold hands, sing Kumbayah and worship Jesus Christ."

 
jhooper
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:15 am

Hepkat,

Quite possibly what I said is impossible to do. But if the culture doesn't change (by whatever means), Saddam will simply be succeeded by an equally ruthless regime.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Mon Apr 21, 2003 11:20 am

We couldn't care less about imposing Christian values on Iraq..

That's as it should be, but you sound like you're angry, or, at the least, very concerned, at them for possibly wanting to include Islam within their government.

It's up to them, and, whatever they decide, the U.S. should tell them "we're here if you need us".
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:14 pm

Aviatsiya: Actually the U.S. military is still present in Afghanistan and working to make it a better place. U.S. special forces actually act as security for the leader. So, we are still there.

Like I said above, I know the American military is still in .af; but they are there serving their own interests.

It might be a good question to ask at this point, where is all these billions of dollars in aid which the American government promised to the Afghani people? Fact is, most of it has yet to show up.

That is what I mean when I say that the American government has left Afghanistan to its own devices.

How about I let Mark Fiore do the talking?

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/liberation.html
 
Guest

RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:53 pm

America got rid of Saddam! Don't they realize that if America hadn't done what they did, they'd still have Saddam to deal with!

True, but America told them they were coming in to rid them of Saddam, not to take over. You've given them a right to voice their opinion, now they are doing so. It's time to listen.




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donder10
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:21 pm

I've seen the protests on CNN:

They're saying "No to America, No to Saddam, our reconstruction will be Islam!"
But which ethnic group is doing this?Most likely the Shias and is probably a small vocal minority anyway.


 
cfalk
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RE: Iraqis Want America Out.

Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:51 am

True, but America told them they were coming in to rid them of Saddam, not to take over. You've given them a right to voice their opinion, now they are doing so. It's time to listen.

The Iraqis will certainly have the government they choose within the next few years. But wouldn't it be a pity if they threw that chance away in favor of a theocracy out of the 13th century?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.

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