Schoenorama
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How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:12 am

A very interesting article about what exactly brought us to this War on Iraq (in case you have forgotten).

http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=400805&host=3&dir=508
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
b757300
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:37 am

I consider it to be nothing but another anti-war propaganda piece written by a person who has an agenda to push.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
777236ER
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:39 am

Yet there are valid points in the article.

WMDs haven't been found, despite it being the KEY reason we went to war. Will they be found? This isn't a technicality, this is a major issue. IF...IF...the US and UK were lying, there should (but probably won't) be major repercussions.
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Schoenorama
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:55 am

777236ER:


What I find interesting about the article is that it says that this whole war has started based upon some very 'shaky' intelligence. Intelligence which has already been proven either untrustfull, incomplete, out of date, forged or completely wrong. The intelligence agencies knew this, yet it were the politicians that used those parts of the intelligence that suited best their arguments.



[Edited 2003-04-29 01:56:23]
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
FDXmech
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:41 am

Quote from Abraham Lincoln

January, 1863

"The hen is the wisest of all the animal creation because she never cackles until after the egg has been laid."

Perhaps we are drawing conclusions prematurally, in the hope of validating our own arguments. But for each article extolling proof positive the perpetration of deceit will be others countering just the opposite, persuasivally (sic).

Time will tell.

You're only as good as your last departure.
 
airplay
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:19 am

Bush tried to convince the world that he had overwhelming evidence of WMDs. Not a "hunch". Not just a bunch of circumstantial evidence. He berated international leaders that asked for some proof.

In my mind being so sure that a significant amount of WMDs existed in Iraq would mean that once he invaded and secured Iraq, it would be easy to seize them and display them for the world to see.

At this point in time, I see that Bush was either lying or he's an idiot. Either conclusion fits.....
 
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yyz717
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:32 am

At this point in time, I see that Bush was either lying or he's an idiot. Either conclusion fits.....

Actually, a balanced conclusion not blinded by anti-American hatred would yield some additional possibilities:
1. The WMD's are well hidden/disbursed & hence have not been found yet.
2. The WMD's were spirited away to either Syria or Iran.
3. The WMD's have been found but the coalition forces have chosen not to release this info yet.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
delta-flyer
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 12:39 pm

Interesting, how everyone has his own favorite source of "facts", and then argues that "my facts are better than your facts"

We should all heed Mark Twain's wise observation: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."

Claiming that the President lied is, with the information presently at hand, nothing short of libel.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Alpha 1
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 1:03 pm

IT'S A MIRACLE.

B757300, actually went a WHOLE THREAD without saying the word "liberal"!

Can the Armageddon be far behind?

 
aloges
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 7:04 pm

"Actually, a balanced conclusion not blinded by anti-American hatred would yield some additional possibilities:"

What you're trying to say may be legitimate and acceptable, but by using the words "anti-American hatred" you prove that you're not that unprejudiced either. Please understand that criticising George Bush and his (foreign) policy does not mean hating America.

"1. The WMD's are well hidden/disbursed & hence have not been found yet."

That's definitely a point, because you can never know. It is also a point that will never be questionable, just like the fact that Bush broke international law when he attacked Iraq.

"2. The WMD's were spirited away to either Syria or Iran."

Why? Why would Saddam haul a load of WMDs to Iran, the country he fought a cruel and long war against? Also, he's a Sunni who oppressed his country's Shii majority - whereas Iran is led by Shii muslims. So why would he send / be allowed to hide those weapons in Iran? (apologies for any misspellings in "Sunni" and "Shii")
As for Syria, I don't think they would hide those WMDs either. If they did, they'd have to be ignorant of what GWB would do with their country - a thing the Syrians certainly don't want to happen.

"3. The WMD's have been found but the coalition forces have chosen not to release this info yet."

Why? In order not to give Bush the evidence he wants? It would also be difficult to hide such findings from all the (embedded) journalists.

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9V-SVE
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 7:49 pm

How about...

4. All WMDs have been previously destroyed in the first Gulf War and the seven years of UN inspections following it.
 
heavymetal
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:00 pm

Claiming that the President lied is, with the information presently at hand, nothing short of libel.

Jesus.

We're really there, aren't we? The wholesale infection of a vast swath of the American population with outright indoctrination has been achieved. BUSH GOOD...MUST NOT INSULT BUSH...ALL WHO DO ARE CRIMINALS.

This is a guy who could open up concentration camps tommorow and select from the population whoever he desired to be sent there, and I'm now convinced 40 to maybe 60 percent of the US population would instantly switch off their own doubt factor and default to his wishes. His vast friendly media spin empire would see to that.

Whatever happens from here on out, historians will say one thing about the Bush Presidency....their corporate-like command of their target customer base has moved from impressive to Goebbels-esque.

We live in dark times.

 
FDXmech
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:02 pm

>>>Why? Why would Saddam haul a load of WMDs to Iran, the country he fought a cruel and long war against? Also, he's a Sunni who oppressed his country's Shii majority - whereas Iran is led by Shii muslims. So why would he send / be allowed to hide those weapons in Iran? (apologies for any misspellings in "Sunni" and "Shii")<<<

Saddam did just that in the first Gulf War. He flew and parked much of his air force in Iran out of harms way.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
aloges
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:17 pm

ROFLMAO, FDXmech!  Big thumbs up Thank you for the laugh!!  Nuts Somewhere on a.net, I even read that the bigger part of the Iraqi AF pilot crowd escaped to Iran - now that's a symbol of "loyalty to death"! Big grin
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:36 pm

A few things we've seem to forgotten...

#1 Saddam was a cruel leader killing many of his own people for foolish reasons. Are you perfectly willing to let people die for so much as opposing a president? We've found many files, Saddam documented what happens to those that oppose him. There's an entire country living in fear of a ruthless leader that only begins to speak when he's gone. Yes, there are many in Iraq who oppose us, and they have a right to, especially if we stay longer than is necessary. The overwhelming majority, however, are greatful to be released from bondage. Iraq may prove to become a great country again. Why are people so quick to dismiss these Iraqi lives?

#2, While the US would love to take credit for freeing the Iraqi people, we cannot fully take this credit. We had a lot of help from coalition forces. (It's wierd how everyone forgets Tony Blair; it's like they dismiss him as a Bush puppet. I'm sorry, but the UK is its own country. They won't be bullied into something by America.) Almost a bigger factor was an Iraqi military who gave little resistence, and an Iraqi people who welcomed the forces.

#3 If Bush is such a dictator here at home (as implied by Heavymetal) he would foget about Iraq and focus on the short term problems here at home, to be recognized as a great president. If this war was about oil, which it wasn't, we could have prevented the whole conflict by making friends with Saddam. It would have cost the American tax payer a hell of a lot less! Troubling times require great leaders to step up and stand for what is right for humanity, not just stand up for what is right politically. It doesn't matter your religion, but I trust a leader who prays each morning, asking for direction from above, over a leader who gets some head in the oval office from an intern.
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Marcus
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Wed Apr 30, 2003 12:40 am

#1 Saddam was a cruel leader killing many of his own people for foolish reasons.
***********************

And nobody really cared untill he threatened the flow of oil to the west.
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777236ER
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Wed Apr 30, 2003 12:48 am

#1 Saddam was a cruel leader killing many of his own people for foolish reasons. Are you perfectly willing to let people die for so much as opposing a president? We've found many files, Saddam documented what happens to those that oppose him. There's an entire country living in fear of a ruthless leader that only begins to speak when he's gone. Yes, there are many in Iraq who oppose us, and they have a right to, especially if we stay longer than is necessary. The overwhelming majority, however, are greatful to be released from bondage. Iraq may prove to become a great country again. Why are people so quick to dismiss these Iraqi lives?

#2, While the US would love to take credit for freeing the Iraqi people, we cannot fully take this credit. We had a lot of help from coalition forces. (It's wierd how everyone forgets Tony Blair; it's like they dismiss him as a Bush puppet. I'm sorry, but the UK is its own country. They won't be bullied into something by America.) Almost a bigger factor was an Iraqi military who gave little resistence, and an Iraqi people who welcomed the forces.

#3 If Bush is such a dictator here at home (as implied by Heavymetal) he would foget about Iraq and focus on the short term problems here at home, to be recognized as a great president. If this war was about oil, which it wasn't, we could have prevented the whole conflict by making friends with Saddam. It would have cost the American tax payer a hell of a lot less! Troubling times require great leaders to step up and stand for what is right for humanity, not just stand up for what is right politically. It doesn't matter your religion, but I trust a leader who prays each morning, asking for direction from above, over a leader who gets some head in the oval office from an intern.


Yeah, but Bush went to war because he had WMDs. Not for anything else. WMDs.
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airplay
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:17 am

Right on cue YYZ717! Right after my post!

1. The WMD's are well hidden/disbursed & hence have not been found yet.
2. The WMD's were spirited away to either Syria or Iran.
3. The WMD's have been found but the coalition forces have chosen not to release this info yet.


1. If they were so well hidden, then what overwhelming evidence could the US of had?

2. Spirited away? Are you suggeting that Saddam could have pulled this off under the coalition’s nose?

3. Yah right….

YYZ717, my comments were directed towards George Bush, not the American people. If you insist on continuing this false unsubstantiated accusations of me being Anti-American you will need to provide proof. Until then, I will just consider your insults “flames” and request that they be deleted.
 
goingboeing
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:18 am

Not only did he have WMD's...we had proof of it. Of course, we didn't tell the UN inspectors where to find them, and doggone it if they didn't move them.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:33 am

Christ People! What is this? Be nasty to Bush day?

GWB has been exceptionally brave by standing up for his beliefs and getting rid of this tyrannical dictator.

You talk of truth? Well, history has shown that truth is determined by victory. Legitimacy? That too is conferred by victory. THAT is what matters: Victory on the field.

-Roy
 
Schoenorama
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:42 am

I just found this Op-Ed at the NY Times on the same issue.

I believe Mr Krugman addresses some valid points:

" Now it's true that the war removed an evil tyrant. But a democracy's decisions, right or wrong, are supposed to take place with the informed consent of its citizens. That didn't happen this time. And we are a democracy ? aren't we?"

The rest of article is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/29/opinion/29KRUG.html?ex=1052620705&ei=1&en=36da50ec4a322149
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
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yyz717
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:01 am

YYZ717, my comments were directed towards George Bush, not the American people.

Not according to the way you worded it.

If you insist on continuing this false unsubstantiated accusations of me being Anti-American you will need to provide proof. Until then, I will just consider your insults “flames” and request that they be deleted.

Ya whatever. Best of luck.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
airplay
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RE: How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies

Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:11 am

YYZ717, my comments were directed towards George Bush, not the American people.

Not according to the way you worded it.



Huh???? Nowhere in the entire post does it have the word "American". It has several references to Bush specifically. Talk about your blind hatred....

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