airplay
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Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 7:28 am

Alot has been discussed about the alleged WMDs in Iraq, but something still doesn't seem to fit. Even though

If there are in fact WMDs there, why isn't the coalition freaking out about it? Aren't they worried that they may get into the hands of the wrong people? Aren't they still in a relatively lawless land?

Bush told us that there were "significant" quantities of these weapons, and that he had proof of their existance. Doesn't that mean they should be relatively easy to find?

And the big question, if there were in fact WMDs why didn't Saddam use them for Pete's sake?

Why are all the oil sites being guarded but none of the potential WMD sites? Why is an interim government being planned but no serious effort to find WMDs?

Is Bush hoping that the WMD issue will just wilt away?

 
Staffan
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 7:40 am

The more I hear about this war I believe less and less that it was about wmd...
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 7:44 am

Someone goofed, big-time.
Dear moderators: No.
 
cba
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 8:12 am

"Someone goofed, big-time."

Sadly, I don't think this was a goof-up. Bush et al knew very well that Saddam did not possess many WMD, and there was no way he would use them on the U.S. It's all about controlling the world's second largest oil producer.
 
Jj
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 8:23 am

and the only way to get to control all that was to convince the people that Saddam possesed WMD's... now that they're there they no longer care 'bout weapons, and they'll let some time pass until everybody forgets about it. Not that Saddam didn't have them. I'm sure that at some time he did. But he had already destroyed them by the time the US was thinking about invading.
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 8:33 am

Be careful, you may have to eat your words.

There is a tremendous (and growing) body of circumstantial evidence pointing to the existence of WMD. We obviously do not know where they are hidden. But I am pretty confident they will be found.

Since, accirding to some of your sentiments, Bush is just an idiot, why are you expecting such quick results?

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
777236ER
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 8:39 am

We obviously do not know where they are hidden.

Obviously? Listening to Powell before the war they knew EXACTLY where they were! How many months ago did the war start? How many WMDs found?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
airworthy
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 8:50 am

There were several months between Powell's speech and the start of the war.
 
777236ER
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 8:51 am

So obviously in those months the intelligence stopped and the Iraqis moved them all. Sucks to be Powell.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 9:23 am

As I recall, Powell's evidence revolved around intercepted communications regarding the transfer of the materials -- but the locations were not ascertained. So we know the weapons were being moved, but did not know what was moved where. But it was obvious there was something relevant going on, and without spies on the scene, we had no way of knowing where.

The bottom line is that neither you nor I have any substantive information. We are both dependant on news conferences to form our opinions. So you choose to believe Saddam, I choose to believe President Bush. Only time will tell who was lying and who was not. I owe it to my president to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
goingboeing
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 9:31 am

Naw..we had PROOF of WMD's. However, this proof was so double deep secret that we couldn't even tell the UN forces to even begin to look. Had we done that, and allowed the UN to find these weapons that we had all this proof of, then the whole world would have had the "proof" that they did indeed possess WMD's, and we might have gotten more support for an attack than we did, and we could still eat "French fries" without being called unpatriotic. As it is, we kick a little sandy ass, and say "whoops...they musta moved them", then start telling Syria how they'd better behave in postwar Iraq.
 
777236ER
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 9:36 am

I choose to believe President Bush

How many more months with no WMDs uncovered will it take for you to stop believing him?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
eg777er
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 9:38 am

I find it funny that all these weapons that were apparently on 45 minutes' notice to launch have just vanished into thin air.......
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 9:41 am

Depends on how things are progressing. To date, we are not even 2 months into this operation. Just look at the complexity of it, the tremendous amount of tasks competing for our scarce resources and the interruptions due to attacks and other diversions.

I will assume that Bush is telling the truth until such time that evidence emerges to the contrary. But a lack of progress does not constitute such evidence to the contrary.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
avt007
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 9:44 am

The problem for Bush is that after this length of time, should the US find something, there will be those who suspect the Americans planted them to save face.
 
Jj
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 9:47 am

Excuse me, but the speeches I heard, Powell said that intelligence knew exactly where the WMD's were. So please don't try to convince me that they were just "intercepted communications" and all that shit. If you knew exactly where they were, couldn't you control those sites with a satelite? Come on, the moment you knew they moved them? Then this speaks about your intelligence. If I knw where something dangerous is, I'm going to monitor it! I'm sorry but I'm convinced more and more that this whole thing about WMD's is just a biiiiiiiiiiiiig lie by Bush and Co.
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 9:50 am

Yes the coalition could have found them by now, yes Powell "knew" exactly where they were at, yes Iraq is relatively lawless, but I still have to question the secrecy of this. I'm not implying that Bush is necessarily 100% on the ball, but I'm questioning whether or not the press really knows everything about what's going on. Hunch, but so what  Insane.

Cheers
-Mike
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 12:43 pm

"Then this speaks about your intelligence."

Yeah, what can I say....we're just a dumb, uncouth, uneducated mob of cowboys, and on top of that, our leader is an idiot. You must be surprised I can even read and write.

".....I'm questioning whether or not the press really knows everything about what's going on."

Caveat emptor.....you have to decide yourself what to believe and what not.

Colin Powell is the only one I trust in the administration, and his speech to the UN a few months ago meticulously detailed the evidence about the WMD. I don't remember it all now, of course, but I do remember that he did not claim to have positive evidence, just circumstantial. Before the war started, he said it won't be easy, while the critics said we would be bogged down in a quagmire. Let's say we are somewhere in between right now.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
airplay
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 12:59 pm

As I recall, Powell's evidence revolved around intercepted communications regarding the transfer of the materials -- but the locations were not ascertained.

Whenever a new video of Saddam surfaces, there is the greatest amount of skepticism concerning the validity of the date and whether it is really Saddam or not. I believe this is reasonable skepticism. Why then, do the "intelligence" gatherers believe communications of the transfer of materials? Before a major conflict, both sides usually dance around the truth in a game of intimidation.

Excuse me, but the speeches I heard, Powell said that intelligence knew exactly where the WMD's were.

Yes they did. As a matter of fact when they finally go around to inspecting the sites they found them looted to the extent that it was not possible to determine if anything was missing. I read today that a nuclear site was found looted.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10888-2003May3.html

Why on earth did they wait this long to check it out? Don't you think securing suspected sites would be one of the first things you would do? I wouldn't trust any investigation of a site that was not secured as soon as possible. Evidence may have been removed or planted by now.

To me, this all implies that Bush knew full well that the coalition forces would find nothing. Otherwise he would be making more of an effort to secure the sites and find the "smoking gun". He had nothing to show the world before and he has nothing to show the world now.

Delta-Flyer,

It's truly patriotic to put your faith in your country's leader and give him the benefit of the doubt. I certainly don't fault you for that.






 
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yyz717
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 1:08 pm

He had nothing to show the world before and he has nothing to show the world now.

Umm....yes he does. He removed Saddam the tyrant. Had Bush followed your apologist leftist philosophy Airplay (by not invading Iraq), Saddam would still be in power terrorizing, raping, pillaging, etc etc etc.

Do you wish Saddam was back in power Airplay???


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
airplay
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 1:29 pm

He had nothing to show the world before and he has nothing to show the world now.

YYZ717, the focus of the topic is the alleged weapons of mass destruction. It's not "leftist policy" or whether or not everyone is happy Saddam is no longer in power. Try to stop trying to demonize me by trying to associate me with your ludicrous arbitrary comments that really belong on an email an not on this thread and stay focussed on the topic.

 
We're Nuts
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 2:02 pm

Saddam would still be in power terrorizing, raping, pillaging, etc etc etc.

Why the hell do I care? That sounds like an Iraqi problem to me!
Dear moderators: No.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 2:36 pm

Try to stop trying to demonize me

Err....because I challenge one of your comments? A tad dramatic today, aren't we?  Insane

Airplay, there is a constant anti-Americanism in all your threads and posts. The US NEVER gets the benefit of the doubt with you (despite so much of your personal wealth and livelihood coming from the US). Why can't you take the same viewpoint as Delta-flyer with his balanced position, as attached:

As I recall, Powell's evidence revolved around intercepted communications regarding the transfer of the materials -- but the locations were not ascertained. So we know the weapons were being moved, but did not know what was moved where. But it was obvious there was something relevant going on, and without spies on the scene, we had no way of knowing where.

This seems reasonable to me. Maybe they simply haven't found them yet, or they were spirited away, or they have been found but not communicated.

And yet Airplay.....in your mind....you've already decided that there are no WMD's, and hence Bush is a liar. Not a very balanced conclusion.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Dash 80
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 2:39 pm

Another WMD thread is exactly what this forum needed Insane
...where the rubber hits the runway...
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 10:49 pm

Caveat emptor.....you have to decide yourself what to believe and what not.

What I'm suggesting is, maybe we don't know everything that's going on in Iraq, as in "Top Secret" actions. Maybe they just don't want anyone to know. I don't know the validity of what I just said, but as in the war against the Taliban, some of the operations were secret in success. Well, supposedly.

Cheers
-Mike
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 10:57 pm

Umm....yes he does. He removed Saddam the tyrant. Had Bush followed your apologist leftist philosophy Airplay (by not invading Iraq), Saddam would still be in power terrorizing, raping, pillaging, etc etc etc.

No kid, if Iraq did not coöperate, the operation of attacking Iraq would have had green light, even from the UN. And we all would have participated (I remember me a speech from one of the Belgian military advisors in which he clearly stated that in this case, Belgium had to participate).

But of course, if Bush wants to play war, let him do. If he wants to ignore the UN, let him do. And still you are surprised why all those people are against bush (and for a lot of them, the generalisation to whole America is made very fast).

/Frederic
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 11:07 pm

Airplay, there is a constant anti-Americanism in all your threads and posts.

Correction: in your dreams. I'm getting a déjà vu btw...

Why can't you take the same viewpoint as Delta-flyer with his balanced position

'balanced' position: Deltaflyer is a true republican and bush supporter. I don't find this very 'balanced'. Or stands balanced for what you believe?

I'm also surprised that no WMD's are found yet. I thought that Saddam had them (or maybe Pete his theorie is right). Future will tell us.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 11:15 pm

But of course, if Bush wants to play war, let him do. If he wants to ignore the UN, let him do.

Just like France ignored the UN when it sent troops to the Ivory Coast last year, but I don't recall you having a problem with ignoring the UN then.

More anti-Americanism is seems........
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
david b.
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RE: Weapons Of Mass Deception...

Mon May 05, 2003 11:26 pm

YYZ, since you don't live here why don't you open your eyes and stop complaining?

[Edited 2003-05-05 16:26:59]
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