heavymetal
Posts: 4443
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 2:43 am

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40212-2003May10.html

BAGHDAD -- The group directing all known U.S. search efforts for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is winding down operations without finding proof that President Saddam Hussein kept clandestine stocks of outlawed arms, according to participants.

The 75th Exploitation Task Force, as the group is formally known, has been described from the start as the principal component of the U.S. plan to discover and display forbidden Iraqi weapons. The group's departure, expected next month, marks a milestone in frustration for a major declared objective of the war.


The Age of Fraud rolls on......

 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 2:48 am

That's just because they hauled everything to Syria and Iran. NUKE 'EM!!!

Signed,
Donald Rumsfeld
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 3:04 am

The hunt will continue under a new Iraq Survey Group, which the Bush administration has said is a larger team.

Of course you just had to leave out that part of the article.



[Edited 2003-05-11 20:09:33]
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 3:08 am

B757300,

The hunt will continue under a new Iraq Survey Group, which the Bush administration has said is a larger team.

Of course you just had to leave out this part of the article.


That way, we can "sport-bitch" and get away with it. Don't you know the liberal left doesn't want you to see the entire contents of any article, as it defeats their bitch position!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4443
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 3:20 am

I'm sure the "BIG" team will find the shit the "A" Team didn't.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 3:22 am

No way Heavymetal!

Your bone's got a little machine
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 3:24 am

Here we go again.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 3:46 am

I vote we send (draft) Heavymetal (in a tight little FedEx Box with few air holes and no foam peanuts) over there and let him sniff 'em out (without an NBC, of course)!  Big thumbs up Nah! He wouldn't find anything - He spends too much time "sport-bitching" and creating imaginary people to argue with here on a.net (< cough > Mx Heavy < cough >)!

Wadda y'all think?

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 3:46 am

Kinda goes against something that came out just only 4 days ago.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- About 2,000 more experts are being sent to Iraq to help look for banned weapons as well as regime leaders, terrorists and more.

The team is more than triple the size of the force now searching for weapons and larger than was previously described. It will be headed by a two-star general in defense intelligence, the Pentagon said Wednesday.

The Defense Department also confirmed it is investigating what officials said may be the most promising discovery so far -- a trailer truck they say could turn out to be the first mobile biological lab recovered since the start of the war to disarm the government of Saddam Hussein.

The rest of the article can be found here
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/text/2003/may/07/050704966.html
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 3:52 am

In the interest of looking at both sides of the equation (and before anyone beats me to it)...

...headed by a two-star general in defense intelligence...

That has to be an oxymoron of the highest order (albeit below the penultimate oxymoron - Bad Blow Job!  Big thumbs up)...

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 4:37 am

Send in Powell, he knew where they are back then at the UNSC.
 
GDB
Posts: 12678
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 5:48 am

More detail on the subject. (From a paper that supported the war before some of you ask).
http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,953497,00.html
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 7:52 am

Bush gambled with his presidency and lost. I won't lose sleep over it.
Dear moderators: No.
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4443
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 8:20 am

The sites that have been investigated (and found nothing) so far were the prime candidates based on pre-war US intelligence. In otherwords, if we needed to look somewhere, it was here. This was the stuff General Powell stood before the Security Council on. This was the stuff that President Bush stoked our fears on. This was the stuff that Ari Fleischer stood before America numerous times and said "This is what it's all about."

This indicates one of two things:

a) The US has atrocious intelligence or

b) The US intelligence reports were 'cooked' to look more ominous.

It's all pointless now. Bush's War and the ghastly expensive aftermath that we'll be paying for for decades is fought. But this new information indicates to me that, with (so far ) a complete abscence of anything that could have quickly done harm to the American Homeland, Plan B was perfectly viable......the covert assassination of Saddam, his sons, & the overthrow of Saddam's rule by Iraqi opposition and exiles. It would have provided one one hundredth the drama on FoxNews, and there would obviously be no tailhooking.

But Halliburton, Richard Perle's Trireme Investment group, Karl Rove and Ariel Sharon would have been a lot less satisfied.

Perhaps the silver lining is the Bush Administration is making some mortal enemies at CIA.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 8:48 am

Heavymetal,

To give your thread a little more credibility, and I know that the Bush-haters, like yourself, on this forum would never resort to seeing more than one side to this story, but one other possible explanation is that...

THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT MOVED THEM!!!!! Think about it as a credible possibility (NOT, gospel, merely a possbility! Can you do that?). If you have a government threatening to invade your country over WMD's and you are preaching to the world that you do not possess those WMD's and the government threatening you drags evidence of those WMD's in front of a world body, what idiot would leave them in the same place as the evidence showed they were? We all know that Saddam's word is his bond, right?  Yeah sure

I continually find it absolutely mind-boggling that some of us are so quick to condemn our own leader, especially in favor of the likes of Saddam Hussein. The same Saddam who cried that the US-sanctioned UN embargo was hurting his precious people that he held with such high regard. These are the same people who weren't allowed to get the foodstuffs being sent in for humanitarian purposes - Those foodstuffs were only for Saddam and his people (the minority group in Iraq). Now, we are quick to deride Bush for his policies but I see no such declaration from those same people towards Saddam. That is shameful! Bush may not be the leader everybody wants or respects but he damn sure deserves better than being rated lower than Saddam by his own country!

Personally, if they had found any WMD's at the sites our intelligence showed them at pre-war, then I would have been VERY suspect of their origin. The very fact that they didn't find them there does not mean they don't exist, they just don't exist where they were before we attacked.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 8:52 am

Heavymetal:

"But Halliburton, Richard Perle's Trireme Investment group, Karl Rove and Ariel Sharon would have been a lot less satisfied."

You forgot to mention James Woolsey (former CIA boss and at the moment an 'adviser' to GWB):

"Woolsey, one of the most high-profile hawks in the war against Iraq and a key member of the Pentagon's Defence Policy Board, is a director of the Washington-based private equity firm Paladin Capital. The company was set up three months after the terrorist attacks on New York and sees the events and aftermath of September 11 as a business opportunity which 'offer[s] substantial promise for homeland security investment'."

"The involvement of one of the most prominent hawks in Washington with a company standing to cash in on the fear of potential terror attacks will raise eyebrows in some quarters."

See http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,953563,00.html for the whole article.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 9:05 am

MxCtrlr:

"THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT MOVED THEM!!!!!"

Remember Colin Powell's 'presentation' at the UNSC? Remember he showed satellite images of what he and his security agencies thought were mobile labs? The US had got many spy satellites, spy planes and spy drones constantly, on the lookout over Iraq. If they were able, like they stated, to track down mobile labs, surely they must have been able to track down where the Iraqi Government moved those weapons!

"We all know that Saddam's word is his bond, right?"

As things are right now, Saddam is turning out to have told the thruth regarding WMD's, something which can't be said about Bush!

"The same Saddam who cried that the US-sanctioned UN embargo was hurting his precious people that he held with such high regard. These are the same people who weren't allowed to get the foodstuffs being sent in for humanitarian purposes - Those foodstuffs were only for Saddam and his people (the minority group in Iraq)."

I don't know where you get this rubbish (Fox News?) but as a matter of fact, food distribution provided through the UN program was one of the few things Saddam did do pretty well for his people.

"Now, we are quick to deride Bush for his policies but I see no such declaration from those same people towards Saddam. That is shameful!"

What really is shameful is that you apparently believe those that critisize Bush over his policies somehow support Saddam. That's not only shameful, it's also very pathetic.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 9:41 am

THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT MOVED THEM!!!!!

Now would you mind explaning how it's possible to move entire weapons of mass destruction programs to some ultra-secret location (presumably underground) or to some neighbouring country while under such intense international observation? Let's not even talk about American spy satellites. Do you really believe it's possible to transport hundreds of tons of equipment, dozens of warheads, hundreds or even thousands of barrels of highly toxic and deadly chemicals and entire laboratories with sophisticated equipment accross an international border without anyone detecting such massive movements? Such an event would require very careful planning and the utmost execution, dozens of specially equipped transport vehicles and months to complete, not to mention dozens of personnel. I really don't believe you're aware of the magnitude of what you're suggestion.

In my opinion, the most logical and reasonable explanation is that the weapons of mass destruction as described by Powell simply did not exist.
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4443
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 9:43 am


*Why would the Iraqi Government move something that they were unaware anyone else knew the whereabouts of?

*If they DID move them, it had to have been from one of these "high probability" locations pre-war (for the simple reason they aren't there now). If we knew the locations then, did we not track any and all movements from them?

I continually find it absolutely mind-boggling that some of us are so quick to condemn our own leader, especially in favor of the likes of Saddam Hussein.

I'll automatically assume that you didn't mean me. On this forum , you will find quite a lot of my opinions condemning 'our own leader'. You'll find no where I spoke out "in favor" of saddam Hussein (said we should shott the prick a coupla times, but no 'in favor').

I certainly HOPE you bothered to watch 60 Minutes tonight for a shockingly frightening Christiane Amanpour filed-story about a dilapadated bio"tech" lab in the former Soviet republic of Kazahkstan. It contains, among other things, finely refined anthrax and weaponized bubonic plague, laboratory engineered to be immune from antibiotics. These cultures, which were designed to infect quickly and finally, are stored haphazardly in a refrigerator that looks like it came out of the typical American college dorm room. But we're lucky. The fridges are in a room with a whole entire Master Lock protecting it. And the room is in a building with some barbed wire around it. Sleep tight tonight.

Nothing in the story about the Bush Administration trying to get the Corp of Engineers to move the renegade biolab from Kazakstan to Iraq, where I bet they wish it was tonight.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 10:25 am

Heavy,

*Why would the Iraqi Government move something that they were unaware anyone else knew the whereabouts of?

One of my biggest complaints with the Bush Administration prior to the war, was the constant saber-rattling that was being done. It was driving the economy into the shitter FAST! At the same time, if I keep telling you, in everything I say and do, that I'm coming to get you, sooner or later you are going to think to yourself, maybe we better get ready, just in case he does come. There was no secret at the UN that we had this "evidence" and "intelligence", so there would be no reason to not expect the Iraqis to figure out that we had a good idea of what was being kept where. With the continual saber-rattling leading up to the war, we gave the Iraqi's ample time to move the WMD's and evidence thereof. Due to the pre-war tension, it is quite conceivable that our "intelligence" would not be first-rate.

a dilapidated bio"tech" lab in the former Soviet republic of Kazahkstan. It contains, among other things, finely refined anthrax and weaponized bubonic plague, laboratory engineered to be immune from antibiotics. These cultures, which were designed to infect quickly and finally, are stored haphazardly in a refrigerator that looks like it came out of the typical American college dorm room.

And we have college professors in this country, playing with and losing engineered biological specimens, of which, there is no current cure because it is for a disease we supposedly eradicated. That begs the question, why are we even working with such materials? We eradicated Smallpox and then some college idiot decides to culture some in an incubator to study it? Doesn't anyone think about the ramifications of those actions? How foolhardy can we possibly be?

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 10:47 am

Schoen,

I don't know where you get this rubbish (Fox News?) but as a matter of fact, food distribution provided through the UN program was one of the few things Saddam did do pretty well for his people.

How many reports came out of Basra (on CNN, not Fox) that there were people in Basra and Nasariya < sp? > starving and warehouses filled with foodstuffs from the UN Oil For Food Program, not distributed? So, because it was reported on a US news source, its automatically "rubbish"? Not a very open-minded view.

What really is shameful is that you apparently believe those that criticize Bush over his policies somehow support Saddam. That's not only shameful, it's also very pathetic.

Obviously you, and Heavymetal, and others < ? > misinterpreted my statement. Just because you criticize Bush does not mean you automatically support Saddam. That's ludicrous! What I said was that we are quick to deride Bush (for example - "Bush hasn't found the WMD's so Bush is a liar and Saddam was telling the truth"). Its as if the only villain here is GWB. There isn't any other possible explanation for the absence of WMD's other than "Bush Lied!" Why isn't there some consideration of alternatives like Saddam hid them. Again, look at the above reply from me. In a pre-war situation, intelligence isn't going to be stellar. It would be naive to think that our spy satellites can preview every spot on Earth, which is why the SR-71 was brought out of retirement in the 1991 Gulf War, because there were holes in the sat coverage. All one has to do is go on the net and find what satellite is going overhead at what time. This isn't technology that wasn't available to the Iraqis, so why is it considered so far-fetched that Saddam could have hid the WMD's in other locations?

That doesn't mean if you bash Bush, you must automatically love Saddam - Nothing is further from the truth (and I hope I've made that point, at least). I just find it amazing that people keep up with the "Bush lied about the WMD's" and "Saddam was telling the truth about the WMD's" without any consideration of other reasons for the absence.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 11:29 am

MxCtrlr, here's a question I'd be willing to bet you can't answer: why? Saddam knew he was no match for us and that his days were numbered. So why bother moving anything?
Dear moderators: No.
 
david b.
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:18 pm

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 11:33 am

Why bit use them??

Maybe because he doesn't have anymore?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 11:57 am

MxCtrlr, here's a question I'd be willing to bet you can't answer: why? Saddam knew he was no match for us and that his days were numbered. So why bother moving anything?

Maybe his final "F**k You!" to GWB? I'm not saying it's fact and never have stated this as fact. I'm just proffering another possible reason WMD's haven't been found yet.

It seems that everyone is quick to say "Bush lied and Saddam was telling the truth" without even considering for a moment that maybe another possibility exists - The WMD's got hidden before the war started (or VERY early in the conflict). That's all. Is that so implausible? Is that so impossible to concede as even a possibility? If so, it speaks volumes for the Bush-bashers. It says, they won't listen to any reason opposing their unabashed hatred for our current President and that is, as Schoenorama said in response to my original post, "That's not only shameful, it's also very pathetic."

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 2:57 pm

Bush had motive to lie - Saddam didn't. That sums it up for me.
Dear moderators: No.
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 9:28 pm

The thing the US claims that they could locate WMD when the Iraq was controlled by a totalitarian regime. Now they have complete control over Iraq and suddenly can't find those WMD?
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 9:44 pm

>>>Bush had motive to lie - Saddam didn't. That sums it up for me.<<<

Actually, your statement sums it up for me.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 9:49 pm

MxCtrlr:

"
How many reports came out of Basra (on CNN, not Fox) that there were people in Basra and Nasariya < sp? > starving and warehouses filled with foodstuffs from the UN Oil For Food Program, not distributed?
"

This was after the war began. During the 12 years of sanctions the Iraqi people suffered, the distribution of food and the few medicines the UN did allow into Iraq went pretty well, considering the circumstances. Of course, there have been shortages during the war and even before but I still have to see/read the first credible and confirmed article that people in Iraq were dying of starvation because of the complete absence of food. Rather than that, hundreds of thousands of people have died over the past 12 years because the sanctions did not allow basic nutritional goods and medicins to be imported by Iraq through the 'Oil-For-Food' programme.

"So, because it was reported on a US news source, its automatically "rubbish"?

No, I said that if it had been reported on Fox News, then it would be rubbish. Don't try to turn this discussion into another "You Are Anti-American" thing.

"Why isn't there some consideration of alternatives like Saddam hid them."

Of course, everything is possible. But when you take into consideration what, and specially how, Colin Powell told the UNSC at the beginning of February about Iraq (still) having WMD's, one gets the impression the Bush Administration not only knew for sure Iraq had WMD's but that they also were keeping a good track of all suspicious movements within Iraq, with all the military and non-military technology available to them. This would mean, like others have already said above, that the US was constantly monitoring every single suspicious movement within Iraq and the surrounding countries.

"In a pre-war situation, intelligence isn't going to be stellar."

I agree, but it was this same intelligence that the Bush Administration used as an excuse to go to war in the first place. Remember that Iraq having or not having WMD's was the single reason this war began in the first place.

"I just find it amazing that people keep up with the "Bush lied about the WMD's" and "Saddam was telling the truth about the WMD's" without any consideration of other reasons for the absence."

The US justified this war based solely upon their intelligence. Now that it has been nearly a month since Saddam's regime came down, this 'intelligence' has turned out not to be so credible. Surely, the Bush Administration must have known their intelligence wasn't 'waterproof' but they nevertheless went ahead. Although this doesn't automatically mean Saddam was telling the truth, it does say alot about the Bush Administration's credibility.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 10:07 pm

Why would Saddam have moved the weapons abroad? I mean, I know they won't be found there, but Saddam would have needed these weapons during the war.

I think everyone will accept that the US was going to win this war, unless Saddam were to use weapons of mass destruction. Why would Saddam send out the only weapon that might perhaps have saved him? I know that using these weapons would have resulted in massive retaliation against Iraq, but does anyone think that Saddam cares about that a lot? If Saddam wanted to live through this he might as well have used them, so he could flee in the chaos following the attack (or the retaliation following the attack).

Saddam will probably have SOME weapons of mass destruction. But personally I do not think it is a lot. Definitaly not as much as the US and the UK tried to make us believe prior to the attack.
Attamottamotta!
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Mon May 12, 2003 10:21 pm

Folks, don't get me wrong. I am a backer of Bush but that doesn't mean I blindly follow his political views. I am against the government intrusion into the bedroom and I think the religious right-wing, conservative zealots (jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, et al) should keep their damn TV shows and stay the hell out of politics!

The only point I was (vainly) trying to make here is just because WMD's haven't been found now, does not mean that Bush lied and Saddam was telling the truth.

If Saddam (note I said "IF") did have WMD's, he would be in a very bad position if he actually used them as France and Germany had both said prior to the war that they would join the Coalition if Iraq used WMD's. With his support base eroding, what choice was he left with? Hide the damn things and get the hell out of Dodge before Hopalong Bush and the US Cavalry came crashing down on him like Sitting Bull on General Custer.

The possible thinking would be that, once Iraq was overtaken, if no WMD's were found, Saddam would have a good case before the UN (assuming he survived) for retaking "his country". Again, just another possible scenario. Saddam was so dillusional (as is obvious from his speeches to his people, like he was talking to beloved children and he the benevolent father) that he truly believes (or believed) that he was the Emperor of Mesopoltamia.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 12:06 am

MxCtrlr:

" The possible thinking would be that, once Iraq was overtaken, if no WMD's were found, Saddam would have a good case before the UN (assuming he survived) for retaking "his country". Again, just another possible scenario."

The Bush Administration's worst nightmare isn't about the possibility of Saddam overtaking Iraq again, it's all about losing their credibility in the International World (like the UNSC) at the cost of those countries (i.e. France, Germany, Russia, China, etc.) that believed the weapons inspections (remember them?) were working.

On March 17th, two days before the war began, Dubya said in his speech in which he 'demanded' Saddam to leave Iraq within 48 hours: "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

Now that the war is over, one would expect that the US Military would first check those places 'upon which this and other governments' gathered such a level of intelligence that 'leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.' Nothing has been found yet and Saddam's regime ended nearly a month ago.

It's important to remind that the extra time for inspections asked for by Mr Hans Blix and backed by France and Russia at the UNSC was much less than the time that has passed since the beginning of the war until now. That is what the Bush Administration is afraid of. To have to admit some day, that those who were saying the weapons inspections were working and those who asked a couple of more weeks for Mr Blix and his team, might have been right in the end.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 12:57 am

The weapons exist and they will be found. Bottom line. Saddam killed the Kurds with something other than bullets in 1988. The UN (even before Bush) passed 14 or 15 resolutions requiring Saddam to give these weapons up. Saddam kicked out inspectors in 1998 for some reason.

Why would Saddam cripple his country's economy if he had no WMD?
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 1:24 am

N79969 is correct on this one point:

Saddam killed the Kurds with something other than bullets in 1988. The UN (even before Bush) passed 14 or 15 resolutions requiring Saddam to give these weapons up. Saddam kicked out inspectors in 1998 for some reason.

Why, if Saddam is such a stand-up guy, did he kick out the weapons inspectors several times (the most recent in 1998). How many times after the 1991 Gulf War, were weapons inspectors screaming about non-compliance, deceit and shady practices by the Iraqi government with regards to the UN weapons inspections. How many years of diplomatic tug-of-war is enough? 1? 2? 12? How many more years were we to wait while Saddam thumbed his nose at everyone in the world over this matter?

Again, this was not meant to be a "Bush was right and Saddam was evil" post. I proffered this theory simply to add another voice of reason to the debate (since there seems to be only one world opinion that Bush lied and Saddam was telling the truth about the WMD's). I haven't come out and said that "WMD's will be found" or that "Bush is God" or any such thing but from the responses to this theory, you'd think that was exactly what I had said!

Any view, held to just one extreme, is just plain wrong. Holding on to only one possible explanation for anything, in the abscence of further facts to support or refute that explanation, is equally pathetic. It shows a short-sightedness that afflicts many of the members of this forum (on both sides of the argument). Can we not simply agree that there may be more than one possibility on this subject? Is that such a difficult position for many of the members of this forum to accept? If so, that is sad, short-sighted and pathetic!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4443
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 1:29 am

Why would Saddam cripple his country's economy if he had no WMD?

In that question, you make two assumptions, both precarious:

1) You assume he cared. I'm sure you & I agree this was not someone playing with a full deck. In his own world, the fact that the people hadn't risen up against him equated to "they adore me". Based on that, why would he care if they were impoverished or not. Whatever your views on the conflict, you have to admit that Baghdad seemed to have an eerily functional status quo pre-war. Resigned detatchment, maybe? And I'm sure he bought into his own fantasy in more than a few ways, one being that his own actions weren't starving Iraq...it was an American/Israeli plot.

2) You assume his economy was 'crippled'. I think it is safe to say Saddam was swimming in more than ample amounts of capital. The people of Iraq may have been suffering. He wasn't.

You're right, En. We could still find the 'motherlode'. Caverns full of deadly botulinium, perhaps a long lost subway station crammed with sarin barrels. If that happens, the Bushies and their millions of devoted followers get to scream "SEEE!" , and be doted upon by an obedient media and pundit class.

If it DOESN'T......if we scour every square inch of Iraq for the next year, only to find perhaps the odd test tube or glass beeker with toxic 'remnants' , or even a barrel or two of 'ingredients'.....then what happens? Nothing. A yawning 'whatever'. The President had his War. Karl Rove has his Drama & Video. And the fraud perpetuated upon the world's mightyest nation sorta fades away into history.

The life, health and quiet retirement of that fraud should scare a true patriot. It isn't. That's even scarier.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 1:39 am

You're right, En. We could still find the 'motherlode'. Caverns full of deadly botulinium, perhaps a long lost subway station crammed with sarin barrels. If that happens, the Bushies and their millions of devoted followers get to scream "SEEE!" , and be doted upon by an obedient media and pundit class.

If it DOESN'T......if we scour every square inch of Iraq for the next year, only to find perhaps the odd test tube or glass beeker with toxic 'remnants' , or even a barrel or two of 'ingredients'.....then what happens? Nothing. A yawning 'whatever'. The President had his War. Karl Rove has his Drama & Video. And the fraud perpetuated upon the world's mightyest nation sorta fades away into history.

The life, health and quiet retirement of that fraud should scare a true patriot. It isn't. That's even scarier.


Again, I agree with Heavymetal (this is getting scary!) I would love nothing more than for this Administration to be vindicated from this cloud once and for all but its not a case of "Pffttt! We were right and you were wrong. Nanny-nanny boo-boo!"

If WMD's are found, then the world sees this Adminstration is a slightly different light (although, I truly doubt many, if any, would see Bush as a "leader"). If WMD's are not found, I do not think it will be the end of respect for the USA worldwide, but rather a total loss of respect for this Adminstration! I think that the majority of the world does see the differentiation between the two. It rightfully should be (in light of that scenario) the end of the Bush Adminstration and, if it comes to that point, I will be vehemently leading the charge for change! Until that time comes, one way or the other though, I will continue to voice support for the current Adminstration (what other one do I have right now?) and continue to hold out that there is more than one explanation for the abscence of WMD's in Iraq (right now).

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 1:59 am

HM,

Implicit in your argument is that a fraud has been perpetrated and is about to be revealed. I don't think that is the case. The world had evidence that Saddam definitely had and continued to possess WMD. Given the guy's track record, it would be highly imprudent to assume that he did not have them any longer because:

a. He said so;
b. UN inspectors (sheperded by Saddam's regime) could not find them
c. He hasn't used them in 14 years;

Saddam is not the guy I would apply the 'beyond a reasonable doubt standard' to and neither would you. The point is that there was real method to the madness that preceded the war in Iraq. I did not agree with the 'how' of how we got to war but I agreed with the 'why.'

Despite Saddam's hoarding why would he bother kicking out inspectors? I know he did not care much about his people but what did he get out of having UN sanctions on his country? I think his actions were more than a gratuitous starvation of his people and to milk the US-Israeli conspiracy.

Personally I suspect that Saddam and his sons picked up a stash of something pretty nasty (on the way back from the $1 billion ATM run) in case they are cornered in their hideout.

I agree with your last point. The American public should hold President Bush accountable to prove the existence of these weapons or to declassify whatever reports led him to believe that the weapons existed with absolute certainty. I think this process will take time. They had over 4 years to conceal these things.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 2:12 am

I hate Bush, but I'm reserving judgement until about a year from now. If they haven't found ANYTHING by then.......

Oh and Matt D, B757-300, MxCtrlr, Jcs17, FDXmech, if nothing has been found in a year's time, I will assume that since YOU ARE fairminded, you'll DENOUNCE Bush's war policy!

Because YOU ARE fairminded...right? Big grin
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 2:18 am

727LOVER,

Oh and Matt D, B757-300, MxCtrlr, Jcs17, FDXmech, if nothing has been found in a year's time, I will assume that since YOU ARE fairminded, you'll DENOUNCE Bush's war policy!

Because YOU ARE fairminded...right?


Speaking soley for myself here, I refer to my statement in Reply #34 of this thread with regards to the scenario of not finding evidence of WMD's:

It rightfully should be (in light of that scenario) the end of the Bush Adminstration and, if it comes to that point, I will be vehemently leading the charge for change! Until that time comes, one way or the other though, I will continue to voice support for the current Adminstration (what other one do I have right now?) and continue to hold out that there is more than one explanation for the abscence of WMD's in Iraq (right now).

That says it all, I think! No?

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 2:22 am

MxCtrlr,

I DO believe you are fair minded, I don't know about the others guys. I already here Pat Buchanan saying that Bush got BAD info from the CIA..
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 2:39 am

I already here Pat Buchanan saying that Bush got BAD info from the CIA..

But then again, what mainstream person with more than two neurons to rub together, actually gives that buffoon credit for THINKING!?!?  Laugh out loud If I were Bush, and Pat Buchannon started trying to back me up, it would be "Check Please!", LIGHTNING FAST!  Big thumbs up

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 9:27 am

N79969:

"The weapons exist and they will be found. Bottom line."

Let me guess, you work for the NSA, don't you?

"Saddam killed the Kurds with something other than bullets in 1988."

And in 1988 all but one UNSC members condemned Iraq over that action. Guess which country refrained from condemning it.

"The UN (even before Bush) passed 14 or 15 resolutions requiring Saddam to give these weapons up.

The UNSC, which includes the US as a Permanent Member, approved many resolutions either demanding Iraq to cooperate with the weapons inspections or condemning Iraq when they failed to do so. However, weapons inspections were carried out and a lot more was found than has been done since the US took over Iraq.

"Saddam kicked out inspectors in 1998 for some reason.

Not true. Clinton 'advised' the UNSC to withdraw their inspectors so the US/UK could start bombing (again).

"Why would Saddam cripple his country's economy if he had no WMD?

No one is saying Saddam never did have WMD's. But the kind he had, i.e. chemical and biological, weren't as expensive to Iraq's economy as you seem to believe.

MxCtrl:

"How many years of diplomatic tug-of-war is enough? 1? 2? 12? How many more years were we to wait while Saddam thumbed his nose at everyone in the world over this matter?"

If every single UNSC member would have maintained their viewpoint regarding Iraq over these past 12 years, then I would agree with you. But the truth is that specially your nation, under different administrations, has had different viewpoints regarding the inspections and, specially, the sanctions. These UNSC imposed sanctions would be removed as soon as Iraq would have disarmed. However, the US and the UK, shortly after the start of the sanctions, stated that even when Saddam complied disarming, they would not vote for the lifting of the sanctions. They have always been after a regime-change, although they never said it so publicly before 9/11.

The objective of the UNSC sanctions never was a regime change, as the UNSC cannot be used by a minority of members to establish a change of regime in a country which leader they dislike. This is the main reason why it has taken the UNSC 12 years and so many resolutions.

In 1998, the US attempted on at least 7 occasions to "delay or stop an investigation or block a line of inquiry", as denounced by Scott Ritter, the weapons inspector which resigned because of this. In 1999, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan expresses his suspicion that intelligence gathered by UN arms inspectors was used for American efforts to undermine the Iraqi regime. This was later admitted by Clinton Administration officials.

"Holding on to only one possible explanation for anything, in the abscence of further facts to support or refute that explanation, is equally pathetic."

It was the Bush Administration that always seemed so completely convinced that Iraq still had WMD's. I haven't seen such an amount of certainty in their statements made by those who opposed to this war. France, Russia and Germany, to name just a few, never stated they were convinced Iraq didn't have WMD's.

The Bush Administration knows very well they needed to find something fast the moment this war began, and everytime they found a 'suspicious canister' or some 'suspicious white powder' the military was quick to inform the networks before the stuff could even be properly analyzed.
As things are right now, I expect even the finding of a single 150miles range missile will be used by Bush to justify this war.

" If WMD's are found, then the world sees this Adminstration is a slightly different light (although, I truly doubt many, if any, would see Bush as a "leader")"

Why would I see your president as my leader? Your president runs the US, not the world. Please don't mix these two things up.  Wink/being sarcastic

"If WMD's are not found, I do not think it will be the end of respect for the USA worldwide, but rather a total loss of respect for this Adminstration!"

I believe we can be sure by now that those WMD's the Bush Administration was so convinced of Iraq still had, have not been found. They must have looked and searched already at those places they were so convinced of in the first place. So now they are looking at other places (they apparently weren't too convinced about) to find anything. I believe the Bush Administration already has lost much respect because no 'big arsenal of ready-to-use WMD's' the US seemed so convinced of has been found yet. "Having fought a war to disarm Iraq of its terrible weapons, neither the US nor Britain can admit that Iraq never had them in the first place. The search for weapons of mass destruction cannot be allowed to fail." See http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,953497,00.html for the complete article.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 10:15 am

" If WMD's are found, then the world sees this Adminstration is a slightly different light (although, I truly doubt many, if any, would see Bush as a "leader")"

Why would I see your president as my leader? Your president runs the US, not the world. Please don't mix these two things up.


Where in my statement did I say that you should refer to Bush as your leader? I said a leader The world reference is for yourself and others who condemn Bush for how his policies affect you in your country. If that isn't the case, then that's another story.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 11:22 am

Schoenorama,

NSA?? What are you talking about?
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Tue May 13, 2003 8:49 pm

MxCtrlr:

"Where in my statement did I say that you should refer to Bush as your leader? I said a leader The world reference is for yourself and others who condemn Bush for how his policies affect you in your country. If that isn't the case, then that's another story."

The inclusion of an  Wink/being sarcastic was an indication my statement included a certain amount of sarcasm.

N79969:

NSA stands for National Security Agency.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Wed May 14, 2003 2:39 am

Yes, I know what it stands for. I did not understand your meandering, seemingly pointless rant. Why would anyone need to work at NSA to understand these issues?
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Wed May 14, 2003 7:33 am

Only you and the 'pre-war' Bush Adminstration seem to be convinced Iraq does have WMD's. Although lately the Hawks in Washington aren't talking much about these WMD's anymore like they used to do before this war started, your statement ("The weapons exist and they will be found. Bottom line.") made me belief you probably work for some highly secret government security agency with access to classified intelligence.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Wed May 14, 2003 12:36 pm

When evidence is found, you will be nowwhere to be seen or heard other than to concoct some lunatic conspiracy theory.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6460
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Wed May 14, 2003 4:16 pm

Let's not say it's there or not... we won't know until they find it...

Now, WHAT IF THERE ARE NO WMDs ? What would/should the US do next to/in Iraq?

I'd say while we all wait for the WMDs to "appear"... why not rebuild Iraq as expeditiously as possible... afterall, Saddam's gone... better do it quick before some wacko convinces the people that they were better off under Saddam... if the US let that happen, those WMDs would never be found and a chance to make an example showcase of it will be lost...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Thu May 15, 2003 12:18 am

N79969:

"When evidence is found, you will be nowwhere to be seen or heard other than to concoct some lunatic conspiracy theory."

You've never heard me say Iraq doesn't have WMD's, pal! I just don't believe, and the current findings or rather lack thereof in Iraq seem to confirm this, that Iraq has large stockpiles of 'ready-to-use' WMD's which threaten US security.

As for a possible 'lunatic conspiracy theory', don't you agree that the best way to avoid this is to have any eventual WMD found to be inspected by an independent organisation? Anyway, if the US wants the UNSC sanctions to be lifted, it can only be done when the UNSC can confirm on site that Iraq is WMD free, so whether the US likes it or not, they do need the UNSC's approval regarding the WMD's and regarding the sanctions!
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: US Army Search Team:No WMD. We're Leaving.

Thu May 15, 2003 12:22 am

I'm willing to give a little leeway here, folks. Saddam had 12 years to hide, bury, destroy, ship out, anything he might have had-and I have absolutely no doubt that, at some point, he had these weapons. Hell, he murdered his own people with them.

But how much patience do you think Bush thinks the world will have on this? After all, the U.S. said there was concrete evidence they existed, yet, to this point, they haven't been found.

If come, oh, say August, Bush is still saying, "Well, we haven't found them yet,but we will...", then the argument has lost all credibility. But of course, he can always fall back to the other reasons he said we went in there in the first place.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos