GC
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:03 am

Racism Is Nonsense

Mon May 12, 2003 8:37 pm

I know I'm stating the obvious here, but I'm getting increasingly frustrated with racists on both sides of the divide spouting their nonsense. Especially the white supremacist who want a "pure" Aryan race. They seem to forget that the "white race" is already a mixture of different variations.

Consider this, I'm Scottish. On my father's side I inherited the surname Campbell which would suggest that my ancestors on that side of the family were here at least a few hundred years, probably longer. My Grandfather on my Mother's side (she is Scottish too) was English from Norfolk. Going back about 1500 years and making the assumption that my family hasn't moved around any great distance since then 'till now, I could assume that I have genes from the following peoples:

Celts
Vikings (Danish - Danelaw in Norfolk)
Scots (Irish)
Saxons
Romans (there was a large settlement in the Falkirk area where my Father's side hail from)

If you looked at someone who would be considered to be mixed race the list would, of course, larger.

My point is that every race is mixed to some degree, especially white Europeans and Mediterranean Europeans.

Also I'd heard a while ago that genealogists had done the maths and worked out that everyone is related at least to 50th cousin. (You work out the fact that everybody has two parent, four grandparents, eight great grandparents etc. against the amount of people that have ever lived, allowing for a margin of error and multiple offspring)

Finally, I liked what a comedian recently said. He commented that we should all keep interbreeding until we're the same colour, then we'd be able to hate people for who they were, not what they were  Smile
 
Krushny
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Mon May 12, 2003 9:28 pm

Spain is a country that should be inmunised to racism . However there are stupid people everywhere. Let us look at who has settled in the Peninsula through our history :

- Neandertahls (extinguished )
- Iberians ("original" population, the quintaesencial short dark-haired Spanish blokes).
- Celts
- Greeks and Phoenicians (and later Carthaginians) settled colonies in our coasts.
- Romans
- Jews
- Germanic Barbarians (Visigoths, Suevians, Alans and Vandals).
- Byzantines
- Arabs
- Berberians/Moors
- and many more people brought as slaves in the Muslim kingdoms (Slavs, Blacks, etc)
- Gypsies
- Different people that settled here in various repopulations (like the Suabians in Sierra Morena in s.XVIII, Vlemish coming to Extremadura with Emperor Charles V, etc)
- Natives brought from America, blacks...

Though there have been many acts of intolerance here (expulsions of jews and muslims, etc), they were of religious rather than racist nature. So all this people has mixed here and we can say we the Spanish have no race "pedigree", we are more like street dogs...
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Mon May 12, 2003 10:17 pm

Of course racism is nonsense.

There is only one solution: integration. The same has to happen with the Middle East, integration is the only possibility to avoid terrorism. It's only very sad that the with blindness covered bush lovers don't want to see this...

You can only solve terrorism with giving those people the feeling that they belong to the western world, and so the extremism will stop. Of course, if you start bombing a country, you only CREATE extremism.

DUMP BUSH 2004
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Mon May 12, 2003 11:14 pm

I agree. Integration IS the only solution. However, as long as there are people who think that *they* are better, who insist on marrying *only* "their" kind, insist on doing business with *only* ______ (insert ethnicity of your choice here) owned businesses, as long as we have ethnicity percentage polls, _____(again, insert ethnicity of your choice here) -"American" identifiers, and so on, I'm afraid it'll never happen.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Mon May 12, 2003 11:20 pm

Hey Matt. What would Leopold have to say on this topic?
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Mon May 12, 2003 11:21 pm

I'm not sure. I'll have him get back to you.  Big grin
 
hkg82
Posts: 1301
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 4:24 pm

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 12:21 am

Racism is indeed nonsense, and I think all racists are fools who should get a reality check.

I think anyone who is a racist should just come out and say so, and in the topic of discussion argue their views logically and not pretend they aren't.

You can tell whether someone is racist or not most of the time, I think.

We know racists are out there, but in my mind they can never logically justify their views to me.

Hkg82.
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 12:47 am

Also, we need to clarify a few things. Since the word “racist” tends to get thrown around a lot, not everything that is labeled as “racist” is, in fact, racist. Of course there is the obvious, like using derogatory remarks such as the word that rhymes with “bigger”. But we cannot forget the other things that are equally racist. Take the examples I gave above. A Latino person that refuses to do business with non-Latino owned businesses is himself practicing racism. A white girl that will only date black men is herself practicing racism. An Asian person who accuses a white man of being a racist is probably himself casting a racist remark. And stating the facts as they are is not necessarily racist. For example, a white person saying that a black man is statistically more likely to be a criminal is not being racist. The same can be said for a white man saying that Mexicans (at least in Southern California) are more likely to be Welfare recipients. This is not racism. It is, based on looking at the percentage of Blacks in prison, and Mexicans living on Welfare, it is the simple truth.

Of course the said white man is likely to be labeled as a racist by the aforementioned Minority groups because 1) it’s a natural defense mechanism and 2) it provides an excellent diversion of attention away from the REAL issue.

Just some food for thought.
 
windshear
Posts: 2258
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 12:55 am

AMEN!
Racism is a sign of fear and weakness!

I just have make a comment on that Middle East Peace plan you posted up there!
Have you no clue on what moves the fanatics?
It's not that they don't feel welcome in the western world, it's because they can see and feel the changes with in their own countries, they can feel the people and land turn western, and THAT is what their fuel is!
Not to be accepted in OUR world, that is exactly what they do NOT want!
They DO NOT want people to integrated, integration means change, and that IS what they are fighting...

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 1:16 am

Not to be accepted in OUR world, that is exactly what they do NOT want!
They DO NOT want people to integrated, integration means change, and that IS what they are fighting...


With integration, I mean that we have to give those people the feeling that they don't feel excluded anymore, because in this world of globalisation, we have the subjective feeling that everything goes faster. Those people feel excluded right now, and this creates extremism.

I don't say they need to be integrated in our Western system, because this would of course create anger.

That's one reason why Bush was totally wrong with his attack on Iraq.
 
windshear
Posts: 2258
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 1:39 am

And to that I agree!
Humans must unite instead of distance our selves from one another...

I talked about the fanatics as you mentioned, not the Arab world as a whole, but those fanatics don't want anything WE can give them, they don't like us, trust us or respect us.

I don't agree with your last remark, but that is all I want to say, I have my thoughts on why the war was legit. Let's just leave it at that k?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
rabenschlag
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 1:44 am

matt, a clarifying word on the definition of racism. i think many would say that racism consist of two assumptions:

(A) there are (mostly behavioral or cognitive) features that correlate with race

(B) these features are innate / genetically transmitted

saying that blacks are more likely to be criminal does not qualify for being a racist because it is compatible with non-biological/genetical explanations of being criminal (and there are quiet a lot of them).

being non-racist means to assume that all features that correlate with race are attributable to non-genetic factors.

makes sense?

r.




 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 1:50 am

I don't agree with your last remark, but that is all I want to say, I have my thoughts on why the war was legit. Let's just leave it at that k?

If you find that a war, without a consensus in the UN, is legit, than you live in the times of before 1923.

/Frederic
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 2:23 am

Racism is a normal human trait. Some may try to deny their racist side or try to resist it, but it's there.

How else can you explain the overwhelming desire for people throughout history to impose their culture on others? What seems strange and weird to you may be perfectly normal in another's eyes.

Racism goes hand in hand with terms like "homophobia". These terms try to demonize someone who celebrates their culture openly and freely, including the varied prejudices that go with them.

So now you're thinking to yourself "boy that Airplay is saying it's OK to be prejudiced and rascist". Well....yes. In my weak mortal image, all I can muster is *tolerance*. And don't try to tell me that you are free of racism and tolerance is not good enough.

Although I don't agree with some elements of other cultures, I still apply the "live and let live" philosophy. I embrace the elements that I feel confortable with and shun the others.

Is it racist to love Jamaican food but outlaw VooDoo sacrifice rituals? How about respecting a Sikh's headwear but not allowing the wearing of cerimonial daggers?

As citizens of a community, we have a right to establish certain standards which we believe will promote a safe and healthy productive working and living environment. This means that some cultures may have to submit to concessions. This policy of "tolerance" works both ways. Give each other enough space to work within their culture without negatively affecting others.

Now there are some that have no capacity for tolerance. These are the people like the KKK etc. that are mentioned above?

Racist? We're all racists. Tolerance? It's possible and the vast majority of us are capable of it.
 
rabenschlag
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 2:40 am

airplay,

what you are talking about is favouring one's own culture. right, that is human. but culture has nothing to do with race and hence with racism.

i can impose the dutch culture over the german one, yet it would be absolutely stupid to talk about racism.

racism has to do with biology, hence nature, hence the opposite of culture. consequently, racists call for segregation and not for integration or (i am not saying that this is a good option) assimilation. because they believe that the negative traits they attribute to the other race are inborn. so theres no way to change them via education or whatever.

thus, i do not agree. a racist can be perfectly tolerant. and a non-racist can be perfectly intolerant (as you say yourself: you can easily dislike aspects of foreign cultures).




 
windshear
Posts: 2258
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 2:50 am

Sabena690...
Please I said that I would leave it at that!
It didn't degrade your oppinion, but you degraded mine, please, I have my views and my thoughts on this, please don't see me in an inferior light, just because you don't agree with me.

This is not about the Iraq war, so if we could please, not provoke others that might be triggered by this...
merci
 Big grin
Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 3:11 am

Race is tightly bound to culture. The definition of "race" has been discussed and re-discussed at length.

Color has very little to do when it comes to the science of race but we as humans don't accept that. Language has little to do with nature as well. Genetic make-up is not race unless you consider the culture.

There are several different "white" people with varying cultures. Some are tolerated more than others.

You are doing a great disservice to the discussion if you separate culture from race.
 
seb146
Posts: 13928
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 3:32 am

I am white and find the slur 'cracker' offensive. But if I used a slur to identify an African, Mexican, or Asian-American, that would make me a racist. I do use those slurs only to people that call me 'cracker.' It's funny how I can use that term but if I use any others, I would be flamed or even deleted. If you can't take it, then don't dish it out.
Also, I do not date white guys because of the way the vast majority of white queer guys act. Whiny and 'me first,f- everyone else.' Does that make me racist? Can I be racist against my own group?

GO CANUCKS!!
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 3:47 am

Airplay: find your own race superior due to a superior culture = fascism.

I would watch out with statements like 'everyone has racistic feelings'. Maybe you have them, but certainly not everyone.
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 9:47 am

After almost 20 posts, no-one has yet given a definition of racism. It's a lot simpler than many of you imply.

Consider these dictionary definitions:
"1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race."

People who do not associate much with members of other races are not necessarily racist unless race is their only reason. Usually it is because of culture (maybe they don't like the food or the music?) or social status (for the same reason the queen of England does not associate with me).

MattD's example..."a white person saying that a black man is statistically more likely to be a criminal is not being racist" in my opinion is, indeed, racist. All that statistics say is that a higher percentage of black males are criminals than white males. It does not follow that a black male is more likely to be a criminal, because being black is not a cause of criminality.

This may seem like splitting hairs, but just think about it for a moment.

Cheers,
Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Thumper
Posts: 520
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2001 2:12 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 10:15 am

Airplay: Congratulations this is the first thread I have ever read that you posted, that was well thought out, made good sense, and I agree with most of , but best of all you didn't try to blame Bush!
 
saintsman
Posts: 2037
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 12:34 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Tue May 13, 2003 4:24 pm

Racism is just convenient. It's easy to distinguish if someone is a different colour. If every one was the same colour it would be harder and people wouldn't like that. If it wasn't colour it would be something else; one country against another country, one town against another town, one part of town against the other part......

It isn't right of course but no one can deny it happens or that's what human nature really is like.

Every one is 'racist' in some form or another. Sad but true.
 
GC
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Wed May 14, 2003 12:08 am

"Race is tightly bound to culture. The definition of "race" has been discussed and re-discussed at length."

The original intention of the post is to discuss genetics and geneology rather than culture which is a different issue, although I concede that the two get intertwined by people.
 
Derico
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Wed May 14, 2003 2:13 am

North Americans are obsessed by race because it is a fundamental part of their history. Virtually no other 'democratic' country has such a deep running obsession with the issue. But this can be both bad AND good.

It's bad because in North America race has permeated every level of thought and process to the point where it sometimes stiffles and paralizes, or simply put, it's totally out of place. Without getting too specific, a small example would be when you fill an employment application. All of them without exception will have a question about your 'race'. What does it really matter if you are qualified for the job?? I find that kind of inquiry silly and out of place.

On the other hand one has to admit it's good that race is so prevalent an issue in North America because then it has to be confronted. Which can and has lead to progress in that area that probably would never have been done if people had swept things under the rug.

I have to say that in Latin America the opposite tends to be the case. Race is a very taboo subject, which can be refreshing because you don't have to think about it all the time, on the other hand if there is no discussion about it the result is the unchanging social pattern seen in virtually all Latin countries, a european minority that is wealthy and well-established, and a mixed amerind-european (and in many cases further down the social scale africans), that have little or no social mobility outside the arts and sport. With the historical/geographic exceptions of Argentina and Uruguay (though Uruguay does have an african minority), this pattern is common in latin countries which is unfortunate and has to change if real prosperity is to come.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
WiLdmanVzla
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 12:17 pm

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Wed May 14, 2003 5:46 am

I just want to say something: the only real & practical way to go into a real 'integration' (in this times of world globalization) is to respect all cultural heritages of each part of the world, not to impose one specific way of behavior and thinking... the development of each culture has a lot of history behind it, each one must be respected.

... racism? what a big crap!!!!!!!!!!.

*******
 
747-451
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 5:50 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Wed May 14, 2003 7:29 am

"North Americans are obsessed by race because it is a fundamental part of their history."

Oh, really? the last I looked the Nazi's were from Europe.

"On the other hand one has to admit it's good that race is so prevalent an issue in North America because then it has to be confronted"

Yes, the US in particular has work to do, but has done more than most other countries to ensure equality with legislation and legal precedent.

Racism stinks.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Wed May 14, 2003 7:39 am

find your own race superior due to a superior culture = fascism.

Who said that? I certainaly didn't. People typically harbour prejudices not because they feel superior. It's because they feel threatened by a particular culture.
 
Derico
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Racism Is Nonsense

Wed May 14, 2003 11:27 am

"Oh, really? the last I looked the Nazi's were from Europe."

The Nazis were from Germany, they were not from England, France, Sweden, Spain, etc. Yes, there were individuals sympathetic of the nazis in those countries, but they were not a general European phenomenon.

Also, the Nazis evolved into self-proclaimed 'defenders' of European culture because it was convenient for them when they were losing the war. Originally they were nothing more than German nationalists, the type you can find in many countries. That has nothing to do with the German historical setting, which similarly to the rest of Europe, was racially homogeneous until recent times. The US was a multiracial state from the outset, which is why race is so huge a deal. That is what I meant by 'obsessed', and not that Americans are more racist than Europeans, that wasn't even the point.

Racists exist in every country and society.

[Edited 2003-05-14 04:33:20]
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: blacksoviet and 18 guests