galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:15 pm

The three-day G-8 meeting concluded Sunday just as it had begun: amid violence that devastated broad swaths in Avian. Official estimates indicate that repairs for the streets, shops and banks, which were damaged or torched, will run near $50 million. Way to go again protestors always showing their true colors, not only do they protest against capitolism but they'll loot your shops too.

"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
User avatar
sebolino
Posts: 3506
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:37 pm

Once again, you're mixing everything.
In every huge public meeting you have people who use it as an excuse to destroy what they can, and there are always people who say that it shows the real color of the protestors.
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:42 pm

And once again Seb you'll make up excuses for people who break the law, loot, steal, damage property and injure authorities.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
Sonic
Posts: 1505
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:46 pm

In Lithuanian history it never happened that protestors would turn violent and destroy or torch anything (excluding themselves). It is just unimaginable from me that protestors could destroy everything in the way as we frequently hear in media. Such things doesn't happens here not only in protests, but also after football or basketball matches. So, I guess it depends on country actually.

[Edited 2003-06-02 14:47:36]
 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:49 pm

Most of these guys are not protestors but just hooligans. They don't protest against anything they just take every oportunity they can to wreak havoc. I'm 110% behind the police whenever these kind of "demonstrations" occur.
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:52 pm

"....not only do they protest against capitolism but they'll loot your shops too."

Capitolism: Does that mean these people are against The Capitol?

By the way, its Evian, not Avian. If you want to be taken serious, the least you could do is spell foreign places correctly.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
User avatar
mbmbos
Posts: 2581
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:44 pm

Well, clearly, the solution is to banish protests altogether. As a matter of fact, an argument can be made that even the protestor's spoken opinions cause damage and therefore should be outlawed.

Would you prefer we impose severe prison terms for any individual who speaks out against the G-8? At the very least, we could be photographing these people (all of whom are badly-behaved looters, not doubt) and keeping tabs on them.

After all, if those protestors are "showing their true colors", why not show yours?
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:53 pm

Galaxy - if they would protest for something YOU want (the re-election of bush for example on which you are waiting), damage would of course be no problem.

But now you make a problem of it: the same happens for example in football. In EVERY football match/protests/..... you have people who are not there because they sympatize with the protestors, but just to cause troubles. What happens than is that due to those people, the police starts repression, and so more and more people are incited.

As a matter of fact: sometimes, a normal protest doesn't change anything, and if people are totally becoming desperate, it is perfectly explainable that things like this happen, which does not want to say I agree with them (I am against unnecessary violence like this).

Oh, and of course the sensation press will only show people who are breaking the law, while they are only a small minority. The problem is that we, if we look at tv, always get the impression that EVERY protestor is breaking the law, which is of course not true.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:55 pm

A rather simple solution here....let the protestors know that if they begin destroying property, the police will be using real bullets. I guarantee you that Anarchist Loser (even lower on the food chain than someone who believes that Communism is an effective economic policy) will not destroy anything.

Schoenorama, nice condescending attitude there. Just what many Americans have come to expect from some Europeans.  Yeah sure
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:55 pm

You know, there are major anarchist organizations that plan all this rioting and looting, hundreds and thousands (I don't think anyone knows of the exact number) of them travel around the world just to create, well, anarchy.

Most of the time, the majority of the protestors only stand there with pickets and just generally bitch about things, while the anarchists go and throw Molotov cocktails to incite the police and the crowd.

Blame them.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:59 pm

I hope Cfalk is weathering the storm ok.

But that SIG the government gave him, should help keep the rioters from spreading into his home.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:05 pm

While there's no excuse for violence, the reasoning behind the geniune protests is pretty valid. Consider how much money GlaxoSmithKlein, Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer etc make every year, and consider how many people don't have drugs for HIV/AIDS or malaria.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:11 pm

Consider how much money GlaxoSmithKlein, Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer etc make every year, and consider how many people don't have drugs for HIV/AIDS or malaria.

Are you saying that companies should put out a product for free?


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:12 pm

Are you saying that companies should put out a product for free?

Given that a kid dies every second from malaria in Africa, how ethical is it for companies like GlaxoSmithKlein to price poor countries out of certain drugs?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:19 pm

So you are saying they should price drugs below cost then?

Not good for long term buisness viablity.



Like it or not, drug companies are not non-profits.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:21 pm

Give me a break, 777236ER. Do you know the amount of money the taxpayers of America pour into these HIV ravaged nations only to see ABSOLUTELY NO PROGRESS in the fight against these deadly diseases? When we just hand money over to these nations, the only place where our money is going is into a despotic ruler's pocket. It doesnt go to the people who need the money most. I would feel so much better (although I dont think that our taxes should even be used for this purpose...it is what charities are for) if the government gave grants to Glaxo/Smith/Kline, Pfizer, etc. to do more research on drugs to combat these diseases.

You are forgetting that these are private companies...they are out for profit for themselves and their shareholders...and rightly so.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:22 pm

Given that a kid dies every second from malaria in Africa, how ethical is it or companies like GlaxoSmithKlein to price poor countries out of certain drugs?

777...There is nop profit to be made in a cure. Yes that sucks, but thats the way of the world. Until the world revolves around something other than money, this is how it will always be.

Who's to say that one of these company's has a cure for AIDS, or whatever, but is with holding it, because there is uch more money to be had in the tons of drugs those afflicted with such diseases take everyday? Definitely a sad thing.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:27 pm

777...There is nop profit to be made in a cure. Yes that sucks, but thats the way of the world. Until the world revolves around something other than money, this is how it will always be.

Which is a shame. To sit back and declare that the world sucks and there's nothing we can do about it is a bit defeatist though.

Give me a break, 777236ER.

Ooooook.

Do you know the amount of money the taxpayers of America pour into these HIV ravaged nations only to see ABSOLUTELY NO PROGRESS in the fight against these deadly diseases?

Do YOU know how much money the taxpayers of America pour into the countries? How much goes on HIV drugs or condoms?

When we just hand money over to these nations, the only place where our money is going is into a despotic ruler's pocket. It doesnt go to the people who need the money most

The US went into Iraq to get rid of a leader who was killing thousands (and something about weapons...sort of), but "despotic rulers" in African (read: oil-less?) countries should be allowed to stay, making the lives of their citizens hell?

You are forgetting that these are private companies...they are out for profit for themselves and their shareholders...and rightly so.

There's nothing wrong with capitalism, there are limits though...

So you are saying they should price drugs below cost then?

Not good for long term buisness viablity.


Below cost? The profit margins are absolutly massive. Granted, they need to be given the R&D needed, but when drug companies make billions upon billions every year, don't you think they have a moral duty to reduce the price of their goods?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:20 am

Thise people are anarchists, pure and simple. When you see signs out there that say "Fuck Capitalism", and the like, and who decry all authority, they aren't out to do anything but cause mayhem. They're punks who don't believe in anything but themselves. They should be given as little publicity as humanly possible.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:59 am

Which is a shame. To sit back and declare that the world sucks and there's nothing we can do about it is a bit defeatist though.

Defeatest...no. Realistic...yes.

Do YOU know how much money the taxpayers of America pour into the countries? How much goes on HIV drugs or condoms?

Why should my money be going to provide AIDS drugs and condoms for these people? I mean education is the best weapon, but that only goes so far. People are not going to stop bangin'. I'd much rather see my money going towards something that might actually make a difference.

Below cost? The profit margins are absolutly massive. Granted, they need to be given the R&D needed, but when drug companies make billions upon billions every year, don't you think they have a moral duty to reduce the price of their goods?

Way of the world again.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:04 am

Why should my money be going to provide AIDS drugs and condoms for these people? I mean education is the best weapon, but that only goes so far. People are not going to stop bangin'. I'd much rather see my money going towards something that might actually make a difference.

My point was that the US doesn't spend that much ANY third world help etc, especially when compared to other advanced countries. People might not stop fucking but how much does it realisitically cost to supply condoms to a village?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Sonic
Posts: 1505
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:08 am

777236ER, condoms are not going to help. You see, even when there was no contraception people managed to control how much children to have - for example, in XIX age in Europe family avaragely had 3 children, while in USA - 6. This is because lands were smaller in Europe and also in USA people were able to send childs to west.

The real reason that Africans have so much children is because they hopes that one of them will get job in city and thus support all the family. Thus, they probably wouldn't use condoms anyways (not to mention that many of them would not understand their usefulness for preventing HIV).
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:16 am

Jcs17:

"Schoenorama, nice condescending attitude there. Just what many Americans have come to expect from some Europeans."

I only gave my opinion on a particular posters' thread. The fact that he is american and I am european is absolutely irrelevant. The only person who sees a "condescending attitude" is you, which perhaps indicates how you see yourself regarding "some european posters".
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:18 am

Yes, Jcs doesn't seem to have a problem with having our tax dollars go to an ill-gotten war in Iraq. but to maybe help save some Africans from AIDS? What a waste, huh? (dripping with sarcasm).
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:21 am

Yes, Jcs doesn't seem to have a problem with having our tax dollars go to an ill-gotten war in Iraq. but to maybe help save some Africans from AIDS? What a waste, huh? (dripping with sarcasm).

Dripping without a point as well.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:28 am

No point, KROC? Sure there is: it's that some people seem to have no trouble spending money on war, but get bent out of shape if it's used to try and actually help those who suffer. I find that ironic.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:49 am

While there's no excuse for violence, the reasoning behind the geniune protests is pretty valid. Consider how much money GlaxoSmithKlein, Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer etc make every year, and consider how many people don't have drugs for HIV/AIDS or malaria.
Big pharma has to be the worst side of capitalism in a few ways.
 
Sonic
Posts: 1505
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:54 am

All these companies are estabilished bųy their owners regardless of what they say just to make profit. This is a sole mission of every non-governmential for-profit company, despite of what mission is officialy stated.

If there is not enough competition, than prices goes up. Under competition, it goes down. Some companies might even give drugs for free to some countries as part of advertisement campaign. But to give them free just to "be good" is absolutely ridiculous idea. This is because of simple reason - how could you tell who really needs free drugs and who doesn't? If some people gets them, others might want too (for example, get expensive drugs for hardly cured diseases or free surgeries). It is up to governments to estabilish social care system or to give aid, not to companies.
 
B747forlife
Posts: 386
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2001 9:36 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:21 am

777236ER - You say the US does not spend much on foreign aid, compared to other advanced countries. Notes I found on a PSU class site, dating from 1999 (yes a little out of date, but there were all I could find) show that only Japan spends more money on humanitarian aid.

The top five:

Country Total aid ($ Millions) As % of GNP Per capita ($)
Japan 9,358 0.2 79
United States 6,878 0.1 30
France 6,307 0.5 125
Germany 5,857 0.3 87
United Kingdom 3,433 0.3 55

http://www.geog.psu.edu/courses/geog103/Aid.htm

(I can't seem to get the spacing right, but where there are spaces are where the categories change.)

The US does not spend as much as other nations if you compare what they spend to the GNP, but in pure dollars, the US spends quite a lot.

These companies spend billions of dollars and many years researching drugs, and then some of you expect that they sell them at a loss. Maybe in the USSR that could work, but in a capitalist society, that does not fly. And, if you tried to get these advances in a society where stuff was sold at a loss, it would never happen because there are not enough ideas floating around. There is plenty of aid going to Africa and other places, it just needs to be given to those who need it.

-Nick
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1034
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:00 am

It´s a shame the protests have turned violent.
However it was a small minority of those who protested peacefully. But that´s just too hard to comprehend for some, I suppose.

I read nowhere that the damage is close to $50 million, I doubt that figure. It´s tops a tenth of that.

Oh, and: "... not only do they protest against capitolism but they'll loot your shops too."
Typos occure so I don´t mind, but protesting against capitalism is not any wrong at all!  Pissed And it´s sure not connected with looting, even though the media tries to portrait it like it was.

Stratofish
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:12 am

Big pharma has to be the worst side of capitalism in a few ways.

Oh yeah...pharmacuetical companies suck. I mean, just because these companies have increased life expectancy by 30 years gives them absolutely no right to make a profit. Damn, how I long for the days when people routinely died from the flu or when Polio was a worldwide epidemic.

Yes, Jcs doesn't seem to have a problem with having our tax dollars go to an ill-gotten war in Iraq. but to maybe help save some Africans from AIDS? What a waste, huh? (dripping with sarcasm).

A. People cannot be "saved" from AIDS, it has a 100% mortality rate
B. Even if people could be "saved" from AIDS, the money that we blindly send over to these nations does nothing for the people it was meant to help.
C. Even if the money did get to the right people, chances are, it wouldnt make a huge difference. The problem in Africa isnt neccessarily the disease, instead it is their culture of poverty and thoughts pertaining to the disease (as Sonic said).
D. Youre bitching about a man who used WMD against his own people being OUT of power...wow....
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:21 am

The US does not spend as much as other nations if you compare what they spend to the GNP, but in pure dollars, the US spends quite a lot.

The US is a big country, of course in pure dollars it looks like a lot. Compared to other countries based on % of GDP i'ts nothing.

A. People cannot be "saved" from AIDS, it has a 100% mortality rate

With the right drugs, people can live upwards of 10 years with HIV.

B. Even if people could be "saved" from AIDS, the money that we blindly send over to these nations does nothing for the people it was meant to help.

So we shouldn't even try? Remove Saddam because he has oil......errrrrrrr......WMDs....eeeeerrrrrrrr.......he's a tyranical dictator, but other corrupt dictatorships can remain?

C. Even if the money did get to the right people, chances are, it wouldnt make a huge difference. The problem in Africa isnt neccessarily the disease, instead it is their culture of poverty and thoughts pertaining to the disease (as Sonic said).

Dumb Africans, eh?

D. Youre bitching about a man who used WMD against his own people being OUT of power...wow....

So you think fighting a war against Saddam is a more worthy cause than trying to prevent the spread of HIV in Africa?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:49 am

Jcs17:

" Oh yeah...pharmacuetical companies suck. I mean, just because these companies have increased life expectancy by 30 years gives them absolutely no right to make a profit. Damn, how I long for the days when people routinely died from the flu or when Polio was a worldwide epidemic."


In 1999, Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, an industry association, and companies like Bristol-Myers Squibb, Glaxo-Wellcome and Pfizer, which make the most widely used AIDS drugs, achieved that the US charged South Africa with violating the World Trade Organization's rules regarding patents and intellectual property, because South Africa was trying to develop generic and cheaper drugs to fight AIDS. Later, the WTO said there was nothing illegal about South Africa trying to develop their own generic and cheaper AIDS drugs. [Source: http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Corporations/AIDS.asp]

Any increase in life expectancy should be made affordable for everybody, not only to 'the lucky few in the Modern World' who can afford to buy these drugs. As the 1999 example above illustrates, not only do the pharmeceutical companies want us to buy their drugs at their price, they also want to prevent us from developing our own generic and (sometimes much) cheaper drugs. In many inmensely poor nations in Africa which are greatly affected by AIDS, trying to keep them from developing cheaper drugs themselves, shows how ruthless capitalism can become.

"Even if people could be "saved" from AIDS, the money that we blindly send over to these nations does nothing for the people it was meant to help."

What money are you sending 'blindly' over? USAID has one of the strictest control policies regarding how, when and where the aid is spent. The only country that receives loads of money through USAID without any control at all is Israel (#1 on USAID over past couple of years). In 2002, besides Egypt, not a single African country was among the Top 10 receivers of USAID. [Source: http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp]
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:02 am

Indeed once again these "anti-globalisation" terrorists show their true selves...
What they want is an anarchistic society where the person with the biggest gun can steal and loot whatever he wants without fear of reprisal.
I wish I were flying
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:41 am

Saddam was also nuts. You couldn't bargain with him. We're not going to go around invading any other countries because no other country in the world today has a crazy a leader as Saddam was (North Korea being a possible exception to that, almost).

Any increase in life expectancy should be made affordable for everybody, not only to 'the lucky few in the Modern World' who can afford to buy these drugs.

Then where will the drug companies get the money to come up with the next new miracle drug?
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:46 am

We're not going to go around invading any other countries because no other country in the world today has a crazy a leader as Saddam was (North Korea being a possible exception to that, almost).

African dictators not withstanding.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
N766UA
Posts: 7843
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:48 am

Ahh but we won't invade any African dictators countries {yet}.
This Website Censors Me
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Again Protestors Become Violent

Wed Jun 04, 2003 10:00 pm

MD-90:

"Then where will the drug companies get the money to come up with the next new miracle drug?"

I don't mind paying a more for these drugs, if this would allow these companies to sell these same drugs at (much) lower prices to poor nations. This way, they could still maintain their Investigation Budgets to develop new drugs.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: einsteinboricua, vikkyvik and 33 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos