NWA742
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Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:18 am

http://www.local6.com/news/2272794/detail.html

Basically a business owner gets robbed, he gets into his Hummer and chases after the robbers, and runs over their car, two of the 4 guys are critically injured.

A decision to file charges has not been made, do you think he should face charges? I think most definitely not, I think he should be given an award instead.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
aloges
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:26 am

That's called lynch law, and if one of the critically injured dies, it's homicide. Chasing them, even beating them while holding them till the police arrive would be fine, but rolling over their car with a heavy vehicle, (at least) not caring about the possibility of killing them is a criminal act.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
777236ER
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:31 am

I think most definitely not, I think he should be given an award instead.

Your country was based on the principle that anyone accused of a crime should have a fair trial with a jury. One person cannot be judge, jury and executioner. If they were, you'd have anarchy.

To seriously advocate attempted murder for someone who's robbed a shop, without any sort of trial, seems ludicrous.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
NWA742
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:41 am

attempted murder

How do you know it was attempted murder? Don't you think it's possible that the owner just wanted them stopped and caught?

How else would he have stopped them? From the picture it was dark, so he probably couldn't see any useful info on the getaway vehicle, and they did hold him at gunpoint throughout the entire ordeal. The robbers could've just driven into any neighborhood or left town and disappeared...........home free if it had not been for the actions of this man.

And remember, being robbed or anything like that can impair your judgement, I've experienced this personally.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
artsyman
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:41 am

This reminds me of the Tony Martin case here in the UK. The general info is that a man breaks into Tony Martins house, and basically Tony Martin called out to the Burglar to leave, he warned the burglar that he had a gun and despite both warnings, the burglar continued to come at him in the house, so Tony Martin shot the man, and is now serving a life sentence for it. It created outrage in the UK as the suggestion is that even in your own home, you cannot protect yourself. In addition to this, just this week, the judge cleared the burglar to sue Tony Martin for damages....

Pathetic really

Jeremy

 
HOMER71
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:42 am

You'll have to look at intent. Was he trying to stop them, or was he maliciously trying to hurt them?
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
bobrayner
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:43 am

To seriously advocate attempted murder for someone who's robbed a shop, without any sort of trial, seems ludicrous.

I have to agree.

Plus, for every person who really is aggrieved and feels that "an eye for an eye" is the best response, there's another three or four who merely think they're aggrieved. I'd rather we don't encourage those people to firebomb abortion clinics, break the windows of shops that shortchanged them, or beat up their partners.

Given a choice between due process and mob justice, which would you prefer?
Cunning linguist
 
NWA742
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:44 am

Was he trying to stop them, or was he maliciously trying to hurt them?

I agree, that's the main question here.

Out of the circumstances of the situation, I doubt he'll be charged with attempted murder, because he didn't really have another way to stop them.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
bobrayner
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:50 am

Intent...

Well, it seems he drove over their vehicle rather than just blocking it (which can't be too hard with a hummer).

Therefore (unless he's a really bad driver  Smile), it's likely that he at least wanted to injure, rather than just apprehend.

Would be interesting to see more details.
I'm disappointed that 84% voted No.
Cunning linguist
 
HOMER71
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:50 am

Of course, if the injured robbers manage to survive this, they can turn around and sue the store owner for pain and lost time at work (robbery)...
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
NWA742
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:56 am

Well, it seems he drove over their vehicle rather than just blocking it

How would he block it when he was chasing it?

Remember...........this guy's driving a Hummer, not an H2, but a bigger heavier H1.........they're not the quickest or most maneuverable things on the road.

I think he was lucky to even be able to catch up to the guys.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
aloges
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:57 am

Homer71,

if some judge let that suit happen, would it be possible for him to be called a "liberal"? (Sorry for taking this a little off-topic, but I'm really curious about the meaning of that word, to some.)
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
NWA742
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:05 am

if some judge let that suit happen, would it be possible for him to be called a "liberal"?

Yes.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Scorpio
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:14 am

What this business owner did was very irresponsible and foolish. Sure, he caught them, but what if, in his wild chase, he, or the burglars, would have caused other accidents, possibly injuring or even killing innocent people? It was a dangerous and foolish thing to do.
 
HOMER71
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:16 am

Well, I said it half-joking, but, to answer your question...no.

Call me naive, but I don't think anyone with any political integrity (oxymoron, I know) would support a suit like that.

[Edited 2003-06-19 20:17:46]
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
captaingomes
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:21 am

I have to agree with 777236 and others, the shop owner was stupid for doing what he did. One thing is if he had bumped them from behind, got on his cell phone and called the police and kept up with them, or whatever. But driving over their vehicle? Trust me, I don't mind too much that they got hurt in this case, but we can't just give anybody free will in taking matters into their own hands, especially in a country when a lot of people carry guns! It would set a very dangerous precedent if it were allowed.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
777236ER
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:46 am

Stopping the robbers is one thing. Stopping them by driving over their car is another, especially when two of them end up critically hurt. Whatever his intent was a JURY (not one person!) has to decide if he wanted to hurt them or if he was just plain stupid to think driving over a car with a Humvee wouldn't hurt anyone.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
ryanb741
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:39 am

If someone tried to burgle me, I don't care about the law, I would hit him with a baseball bat, put him in the boot of my car and dump him in a river. I am fed up of all these laws protecting criminals, and you cannot rely on the police - they don't give a damn. No burglar is getting any of my sh*t without a fight.

I had a scenario 2 months ago in Acton High Street, London where an Irish guy tried to mug me for my Breitling watch. Well BAM, SMACK he had an imprint of my fist in his nose, claret all over the pavement and I'll bet a really bad headache the next morning. That will make him think twice next time. If they've got a knife, even better, I'll pick up a chair, table, I don't give a f*ck I will cave that bastard's head in. I'm fed up of these doogooder laws here in the UK. I will make anyone pay who tries to rob from me.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
777236ER
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:42 am

If someone tried to burgle me, I don't care about the law, I would hit him with a baseball bat, put him in the boot of my car and dump him in a river

Then you'd be tried for murder. Rightly so.

No burglar is getting any of my sh*t without a fight.

Because a burglar is after your shit that entitles you to kill him?

I had a scenario 2 months ago in Acton High Street, London where an Irish guy tried to mug me for my Breitling watch. Well BAM, SMACK he had an imprint of my fist in his nose, claret all over the pavement and I'll bet a really bad headache the next morning

You didn't kill him?

I don't give a f*ck I will cave that bastard's head in. I'm fed up of these doogooder laws here in the UK.

Right to a fair trial = "doogooder" [sic] law?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
emiratesa345
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:44 am

Well one thing is for sure. They will never again attempt something like this again. Sure, I also believe the law needs to be followed and there are proper ways of dealing with robberies. Clearly not everyone gives a sh!t.

They learned their lesson.

EmiratesA345  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
777236ER
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:46 am

They learned their lesson.

If someone does 35 mph in a 30 zone, and you seriously injure them, they will probably learn their lesson.

There's right-wing law and order, then there's just insanity.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
captaingomes
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:52 am

Ryan, you say that until you get somebody who will cave your head it. Are you invincible or something? Quite honestly, I'm happy you beat the crap out of the guy who tried to burgle you, but anything beyond that is dumb.

You are also looking at the laws in the wrong way. They aren't supposed to protect the criminals, but they are supposed to protect law abiding citizens. If the law didn't matter, anybody could just take it out on you for whatever they wanted, because hey, the law doesn't apply!
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
aloges
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 6:02 am

"Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......"

To put it simply, that's not where it belongs. Period.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:23 pm

Captaingomes - normally I am extremely calm and collected (I haven't EVER had a street brawl or gotten into a fight where I wasn't protecting myself from an aggressor). I am pretty adept at martial arts (5 years ago I was regional kickboxing champion) but if it is a matter of self defence I don't care if there are ten, twenty, one hundred men, I will take them on on my own. I don't care if I get beaten - sure I may lose against ten guys but I'm taking as many of them down first as I can. Living in London, you need to be able to take care of yourself. I would never pre-empt a fight, but if somebody attacks me then I am not going to sit back and take it - I will kill that guy if I have to and I'm serious. Once he pulls a knife out on me that's it - I am going to town on that guy's face. I would never EVER hand over my wallet to a mugger, regardless of what weapon he had - no way, because next time it could be an old lady he goes for. I will batter that guy regardless of the cost to myself.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
L-188
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:29 pm

Key point here being.

If you have to shoot a burgler, and he tries to crawl out of the house. Drag him back in.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
HOMER71
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 8:17 pm

Good point, anything you do to an unwanted visitor in your home is nice and legal Big grin
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
L-188
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 8:20 pm

There is a big stink going on up here right now because a pastor shot two intruders inside a stairwell in his church.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
aloges
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 8:52 pm

A pastor? Shooting someone?!? What did they do to drive him that crazy?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
L-188
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 8:54 pm

They broke into the church to steal stuff.

It was o bright early in the morning, The pastor went over with his .44 and challenged them.

His problem is that apparently in the state of Alaska, it is only legal to use deadly force to protect your home.

If it is your office, business or church, you aren't allowed to defend it.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
aloges
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 8:59 pm

I guess I'll never understand the use of violence and guns some Americans make and advocate. I just don't see the sense of it, and when even pastors shoot people... Where are you going?  Confused
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
L-188
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:01 pm

All I know is, that I try and limit my shooting to Caribou, Deer, Moose, Bear, Goose, Duck, Squirrel, Halibut, Fox, Wolf, Ptamigan, Grouse. And several other animal species I can recall at the moment.

I don't get too much of that done these days.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
cfalk
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Fri Jun 20, 2003 11:48 pm

First of all, a Hummer being a heavy vehicle in which it is just about impossible to overtake and cut someone off to stop him, (and not to mention that the bad guys can always reverse and go the other way), I think the store owner used the only means available to him to stop the thieves from getting away. He obviously did not want to kill them - if he did, he would have backed up in his hummer and crashed into them again, and again, until you needed a mop and bucket to clean up the mess. Hummers are good for this. He just did it enough to make sure that they were not going anywhere. The excessive force charge is ridiculous. If he had launched an RPG at the fleeing car, that might have been excessive (maybe). If the car was already disabled and he launched another RPG at it, then it would almost certainly have been excessive.

Everyone says that only a trial by jury can decide whether someone is guilty. That's bullsh&t. If someone breaks into my place and I see him do it, I KNOW he is guilty. It's not a case where the accusation is based on Agatha Christie-style evidence collection and forensics, where of course a jury is in its element. And if I can stop him from getting away, that means that he is caught red-handed. A jury might step in, but it is more of a legal rubber-stamp at this point - It's hard to argue when the guy was seen, chased and caught, as opposed to tracking him down via fingerprints, motive, interviews, etc. If the jury lets the bad guys go in such a case (for whatever reasons), it is a miscarriage of justice, which unfortunately happens sometimes.

I believe it is everyone's right to defend his property. I believe that a man's rights are forfeited when he freely decides to violate the rights of an owner of a home or business which he intends to rob (or worse). In a perfectly just world, a man's rights reflect those rights which he is willing to grant to others. If you don't respect my rights (to a secure home, for instance), I don't see why you should expect me to take your rights into account when I take steps to make sure that you don't get away with it.

The answer, of course, in such a just world, is that to make sure your rights are not voided, don't go around violating other people's rights. This is what I find missing from a lot of the "liberals" on this board. What about the rights of the man to defend his business? He has worked hard, and built up his livelihood with which he supports his family and children. Why should he not do whatever he can to make sure that those people who want to steal from him don't?

The bad guys in this case chose to go out and rob a business that night. They should assume the full consequences of that decision, and if that means life in a wheelchair, well, they should have thought of that before they went out on their "mission".

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 12:09 am

Charles, I personally don't care about the pain and suffering these particular thieves are going through. The big issue here is people taking matters into their own hands and going too far. Did this guy go too far? Absolutely. You don't run over somebody's car because they tried to steal something from you. The shop owner's rights are taken into account by having cops do an investigation, by having insurance that will cover the damages, that business owner could be much further ahead by taking appropriate steps rather than taking matters into his own hands.

I'll give a personal example. A few years ago, I worked at a video store. I rented to this fat kid an N64 controller for a measly $1 per day. A few hours later he returns and says he doesn't really need it, and wants his money back. I said I couldn't, it was store policy, and besides, it was only a dollar. Without me knowing at the time, the fat kid took revenge by running to my car and jumping on the hood! I found out the day after. Trust me, I would have LOVED to beat the crap out of him, and he would think twice about doing it again, but would that fix my hood? No. I would also get charged.

I called the cops, the parents paid for the damage, and that was the end of it. If I had beaten the kid up, well, I'd potentially get a criminal record, say goodbye to many jobs, and my hood would still have his feet dents on it.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
NWA742
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 1:26 am

Did this guy go too far? Absolutely. You don't run over somebody's car because they tried to steal something from you.

That seems to just be your opinion Captaingomes. But you have look at the situation at hand here.

It's dark.......and this guy has been robbed and held at gunpoint. Since it's dark, he probably doesn't get any useful information on the getaway vehicle. So then he knows that he has nothing to tell the cops if he were to call them. So, he hops in his vehicle, a HUMMER. Remember, we're talking about a Hummer. Again, Hummers are slow and very unmaneuverable. I think the guy was lucky to even be able to catch up to the getaway vehicle.

Now, what are the chances of being able to stop the getaway vehicle without ramming it? NONE. If he had actually managed to get infront of the car and cut them off, what's to stop them from turning around? And I assure you that they can do that much quicker and easier than this guy could in a Hummer.

So, the guy probably proceeds to ram the vehicle, but, since it's a Hummer, he actually runs over the vehicle...........critically wounding 2 of the assholes, and stopping the car. Then he calls the cops and they apprehend the suspects.

Now, had he done it your way, the suspects would probably be home free and rich as we speak right now. These guys could've just left town or crept into any neighborhood and disappeared before the police even showed up.

There are countless situations in which the "approapriate" thing to do can be different.

This DOES NOT mean that these crooks don't deserve a fair trial, but you have to catch them before you can give them a trial!

I think what he did was right, fair, and justifiable.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
NWA742
Topic Author
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 1:35 am

Also, to all those who say this is attempted murder, think again.

Like Charles said,

If this man was realing trying to kill all of these robbers, why wouldn't he have actually killed them? There was nothing to stop him from doing it. He could've taken his Hummer and ran them over again and again.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
EGGD
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 1:40 am

lmao, you want to stop someone from running away so you drive over their car? I don't think so  Laugh out loud
 
NWA742
Topic Author
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 1:44 am

lmao, you want to stop someone from running away so you drive over their car? I don't think so

Did you even read the article EGGD?  Insane

Picture this, you're driving a Hummer, chasing after a car that is much faster and more maneuverable than you are.

If you can think of a better way to stop the car than this guy did, then please enlighten us.

Also, he could have just been trying to ram the vehicle, maybe forgetting the fact that he was driving a Hummer..........he ended up running the car over.

Don't judge until you look at the actual situation.



-NWA742

[Edited 2003-06-20 18:45:45]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
777236ER
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:01 am

I think the store owner used the only means available to him to stop the thieves from getting away

Now we've moved on from self-defence to justifying restraining someone after a robbery. Fair enough but...

He obviously did not want to kill them - if he did, he would have backed up in his hummer and crashed into them again, and again, until you needed a mop and bucket to clean up the mess. Hummers are good for this. He just did it enough to make sure that they were not going anywhere

Whether he WANTED to kill them is a moot point, the guy drove a Humvee over their car. Yes, it might have restrained them but two of them ended up critically injured. That's excessive force by definition. If a cop tried to arrest someone and the guy they arrested ended up in a critical condition, that's excessive force. By all means stop the people, but not by hurting them that much.

Everyone says that only a trial by jury can decide whether someone is guilty. That's bullsh&t. If someone breaks into my place and I see him do it, I KNOW he is guilty

Whether you know the guilt or not, how do you have the right to decide what their punishment should be?

I believe it is everyone's right to defend his property

Key point. This guy was CHASING the robbers, not chasing them away. By chasing them, and running over their car, he's taking the law into his own hands. He's not protecting his property, he's acting out of his OWN feeling of justice.

What about the rights of the man to defend his business? He has worked hard, and built up his livelihood with which he supports his family and children. Why should he not do whatever he can to make sure that those people who want to steal from him don't?

Including killing them?

That seems to just be your opinion Captaingomes.

You've got the point, even if you don't realise it. That's just his opinion. The justice dispensed to these people was in the opinion of the shopkeeper only, which, like it or not, is not how the system works.

It's dark.......and this guy has been robbed and held at gunpoint. Since it's dark, he probably doesn't get any useful information on the getaway vehicle. So then he knows that he has nothing to tell the cops if he were to call them. So, he hops in his vehicle, a HUMMER. Remember, we're talking about a Hummer. Again, Hummers are slow and very unmaneuverable. I think the guy was lucky to even be able to catch up to the getaway vehicle.

Now you're just speculating for crying out loud. Still, this goes beyond defending his property into doing the job of the police, to the point where a police officer would be charged with excessive force.

So, the guy probably proceeds to ram the vehicle, but, since it's a Hummer, he actually runs over the vehicle...........critically wounding 2 of the assholes, and stopping the car. Then he calls the cops and they apprehend the suspects.

Suspects...assholes...what are they?! What if they weren't critically wounded? What if they can't walk again? Is the Hummer driver justified by crippling them?

How can you draw the line? The fact is you can't. You can't define THIS as reasonable force, and something else as unreasonable force.

A court of law will decide whether he used unreasonable force, not you. It's the way the system works, if you don't like it (to use typical Conservative spiel) go to another country.

Your bone's got a little machine
 
EGGD
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:03 am

Picture this, you're driving a Hummer, chasing after a car that is much faster and more maneuverable than you are.

Ok, so how did he 'catch up with them' (to quote from the article that I didn't read).

Also, he could have just been trying to ram the vehicle, maybe forgetting the fact that he was driving a Hummer..........he ended up running the car over.

Ok, so he just though *hey i'll just try and fishtail him* when he looked down on the car? If he is that stupid then surely a lawsuit should be filed for gross negligence.

If he managed to catch up with them, there are a million different ways to stop them, instead of driving over their car and potentially killing the occupants. You can just take down the registration number you know. This guy obviously must have been pissed off and decided to 'payback' the criminals by trying to kill them, or at least severely injure them.

I'm not condoning the actions of the criminals, but justice will be served eventually, its not a good idea to take the law into your own hands in a situation anyway, but he's gone past the law anyway (would the police do this? I think not).
 
NWA742
Topic Author
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RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:16 am

Now you're just speculating for crying out loud.

And after calling this "attempted murder", you're not speculating as well? Usually how police solve crimes is speculating different things that could have happened, gathering evidence, and so on.......... Insane

Suspects...assholes...what are they?!

Ummmmmmmm...............both. Is that too hard for you to understand 777236ER?  Insane

What if they weren't critically wounded? What if they can't walk again? Is the Hummer driver justified by crippling them?

Yes, I think he is justified by crippling them. He used probably the only means he had to stop them.

You can't define THIS as reasonable force

If I can't define this as reasonable, then YOU can't define this as unreasonable or excessive force, or attempted murder!

A court of law will decide whether he used unreasonable force, not you.

Really, Sherlock?

It's the way the system works, if you don't like it (to use typical Conservative spiel) go to another country.

Wait a minute, when have I ever complained or disagreed with how the system works? Just because I think this guy did the right thing by stopping these criminals himself.........doesn't mean they don't deserve a trial. Stop assuming that.............assuming that Conservatives think no one who breaks the law deserves a fair trial and should be shot........is typical Liberal spiel.  Insane

I'll say this again,

There are countless situations in which the "approapriate" thing to do can be different.

This DOES NOT mean that these crooks don't deserve a fair trial, but you have to catch them before you can give them a trial!

Ok, so how did he 'catch up with them'

How should I know? I wasn't there. All I said was that he was driving a Hummer, and since they are very slow.......he was lucky to be able to catch up to them.

If he managed to catch up with them, there are a million different ways to stop them, instead of driving over their car and potentially killing the occupants. You can just take down the registration number you know. This guy obviously must have been pissed off and decided to 'payback' the criminals by trying to kill them, or at least severely injure them.

Sure, you could get the registration. That's 1 way......not millions, and that doesn't mean stopping the criminals. Anyway, if he did get the registration, that still doesn't help too much. The crooks still have a million ways to get away.

Sure the guy was pissed off, wouldn't you be? Remember, being robbed or encountered by a criminal can impair reason and judgement.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:20 am

Well if he managed to catch up with them and then drive over them, i'm sure he could've got in front of the car, looks from the picture like the car was stopped at the time, and then the hummer has driven over the top and stopped. The crook does have a million different ways to get away, but catching them will be easy, especially since the guy must have seen them, to follow them out of his shop (or whatever it was), get in his car and follow their car.

Its not like, if he hadn't have chased them they'd have gotten away with it and running over their car was the only way to serve justice.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:20 am

Usually how police solve crimes is speculating different things that could have happened, gathering evidence, and so on..........

Oh, the police now? So we're not talking about people taking the law into their own hands?

Yes, I think he is justified by crippling them. He used probably the only means he had to stop them.

What if the only means to stop them were to kill them?

Wait a minute, when have I ever complained or disagreed with how the system works?

In the bloody topic title. You say it's ok for people to take the law into their own hands, which the system does not allow.

Sure the guy was pissed off, wouldn't you be? Remember, being robbed or encountered by a criminal can impair reason and judgement.

Because his judgement was impaired he was justified? If a wife-beater had a tough day at work, is he justified?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
NWA742
Topic Author
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:29 am

Oh, the police now? So we're not talking about people taking the law into their own hands?

I wasn't changing the subject, just pointing that out. Come on, use your head 777236ER.

What if the only means to stop them were to kill them?

He didn't kill them, did he? If the only means to stop them were to kill them, that would be different. LIKE I SAID, IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION.

In the bloody topic title. You say it's ok for people to take the law into their own hands, which the system does not allow.

Bullshit............the title is the shortest version of what happened. And no, all I said was that in THIS situation the guy was justified in running after the criminals and stopping them by the only available means possible. Stop acting like you know that I think 77236ER.

BTW, sometimes the systme DOES allow you to take the law into your own hands.....on your own property if someone imposes a danger to you.......you have the right to defend yourself.

And in case you get confused by the above, I'm just pointing that out as well, not changing the subject.

Because his judgement was impaired he was justified?

Did I say that? Again, stop putting words into my mouth.  Insane

What I meant was that having your own life threatened can change the way you act, I've experienced this personally. Now if this guy did kill the robbers and was tried for murder, a fact like that can certainly be brought into the equation.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:32 am

And no, all I said was that in THIS situation the guy was justified in running after the criminals and stopping them by the only available means possible. Stop acting like you know that I think 77236ER.

Whether you justify it in every situation isn't the point. You jusfity it here, while the law doesn't.

BTW, sometimes the systme DOES allow you to take the law into your own hands.....on your own property if someone imposes a danger to you.......you have the right to defend yourself.


Which isn't what happened here...

What I meant was that having your own life threatened can change the way you act, I've experienced this personally. Now if this guy did kill the robbers and was tried for murder, a fact like that can certainly be brought into the equation.

But it wouldn't excuse him from the crime.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
NWA742
Topic Author
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:39 am

You jusfity it here, while the law doesn't.

Charges have not been filed against the man, so how can you say that right now?

All depends on the situation, and I don't think you've looked at the situation completely.

Which isn't what happened here...

No kidding, I was just pointing that out in response to that incorrect statement you made:

You say it's ok for people to take the law into their own hands, which the system does not allow

But it wouldn't excuse him from the crime.

But it could reduce the charges big time. I've seen a sentence of lifetime in prison go down to a few years with temporary insanity brought in. CourtTV was the only thing to watch that night  Big grin.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
GD727
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:33 am

RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 6:53 am

Good for the business owner, he had every right to apprehend the suspects. I'm sure the guy didn't mean to nearly kill them, but he did what he had to do.

If you check the poll results on the news page NWA742 put up, something like 84% of poll respondents said the man should not be charged. I agree with them.

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:11 am

I think he should be charged with vehicular assult, and if one of them dies, or both, vehicular homocide, wreckless operation, and whatever else he can be fairly charged with.

How do you know it was attempted murder?

A case could be made for it. After he was robbed, he went out to hunt them down-that's a premeditated action, and could lead to a murder charge if one of these people dies.

This reminds me of the Tony Martin case here in the UK. The general info is that a man breaks into Tony Martins house, and basically Tony Martin called out to the Burglar to leave, he warned the burglar that he had a gun and despite both warnings, the burglar continued to come at him in the house, so Tony Martin shot the man, and is now serving a life sentence for it..

To me, Mr. Martin did nothing worng-he was just defeinding his home. But had Mr. Martin gone out deliberately hunting down the thief off his property, then he'd be in the same boat as this store owner. This store owner left the premises, and deliberately hunted thse guys down.

This man is no hero. He's a vigilante. But unfortunately, in America in 2003, such actions are seen as heroic. He should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:38 am

NWA742, you seem to know exactly how the situation went, by claiming chances of something are zero, and that since it was dark etc the shop owner couldn't get a description, blah blah blah. You're coming up with way too many excuses to defend what the shop keeper did. If you allow everybody to take the law into their own hands, watch out! I'd rather have a system where people have consequences for what they do. There are many other ways to get these guys than to literally run them over. And don't just assume that he could have stopped without running over them,
he should at least have a reckless driving charge brought up against him.

The robbers though? They should get in a cell with Ceilidh.

[Edited 2003-06-21 00:39:15]
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
NWA742
Topic Author
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sat Jun 21, 2003 11:59 am

NWA742, you seem to know exactly how the situation went, by claiming chances of something are zero, and that since it was dark etc the shop owner couldn't get a description, blah blah blah.

Absolutely not. I don't know anything more about this than you do. I'm just pointing out several possibilites as to what could've happened pending on the specific situation. You on the other hand, instantly stick to "attemted murder".

You're coming up with way too many excuses to defend what the shop keeper did.

You talk as if a court has already sentenced this owner to prison for attempted murder and I'm still making excuses for it.  Insane

Anyways, they're not excuses.....they're possibilites. A logical possibility.....since it was dark..........maybe the guy didn't see useful information on the getaway vehicle? What's wrong with taking that into account? That's just one out of many for crying out loud.

And when it comes to crime........you have to take every logical possibility into account.

I'd rather have a system where people have consequences for what they do.

As would I..............................what's to make you think that I wouldn't?

There are many other ways to get these guys than to literally run them over.

You know what.......I haven't heard ONE SINGLE other way. So please, tell me. How could this guy............driving a Hummer.........stop another vehicle that is much faster and more maneuverable.......besides ramming it?

Something else........YOU don't know that the owner was trying to run over the car in the first place. Maybe the owner was just trying to block or ram the vehicle to stop it, maybe he didn't know how easy the Hummer could've run over the car...........you never know, but you have to take these possibilities into account......you don't immediately jump to conclusions........that's how the system that you say I am against.........works.  Insane




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Man Takes Law Into His Own Hands......

Sun Jun 22, 2003 12:33 am

I never once mentioned "attempted murder!!!" I did say at the very least, he should be charged with reckless driving. But you are the one who said there's no way he could avoid running them over. C'mon, let's be real.

In the end, if the shop owner who was victomized played his cards right, the burlgers would be charged and hopefully jailed, he would have had his insurance pay for any theft or damage, and all would be ok. Again, I personally don't care that the burglers were injured, but now the shop owner faces the possibility of being charged with numerous offences and on top of that, I don't know that the insurance company will cover the damages. Sounds like his decisions put him in worse shape than if he had been more mature about it.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster

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