jcs17
Posts: 7376
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San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Sun Aug 03, 2003 1:25 am

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-1110&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20030802%2F075143191.htm&sc=1110&related=off

SAN DIEGO (AP) - Officials suspect radical environmentalists set a fire that swept through an unoccupied five-story apartment complex, causing more than $20 million in damage.

A banner reading ``If you build it, we will burn it,'' with the initials ``ELF,'' was found Friday next to the burning building still under construction in the upscale University Town Centre residential neighborhood. No injuries were reported.

The initials may correspond to the Earth Liberation Front, a loose-knit group that describes itself as ``an international underground organization that uses direct action in the form of economic sabotage to stop the destruction of the natural environment.''

Members of ELF have claimed responsibility for dozens of fires and other acts since 1997, causing $50 million in damages to luxury homes, ski lodges and sport utility vehicles. There was no immediate claim of responsibility posted on the group's Web site.

The group, which only communicates with the press by e-mail, issued a brief and vague statement in response to media inquiries:

``The ELF press office has received no communique for the San Diego fire that took place Aug. 1, 2003, and thus cannot answer any questions as to why this location and city was chosen for the latest ELF action,'' the statement said. ``The banner at the site reading `You build it - we burn it - ELF' is a legitimate claim of responsibility by the Earth Liberation Front.''

San Diego police, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and arson experts were investigating.

Capt. Jeff Carle, of the San Diego Fire Department, said three construction workers who were sleeping on the site managed to escape the flames unharmed.

``It could have killed someone,'' said Carle.

Several hundred residents of a building next to the construction site were evacuated as heat from the blaze broke windows and melted plastic blinds in their homes.

The 206-unit complex was part of a larger project approved by the City Council in late 2000 that included a hotel and offices. University Towne Centre is a rapidly growing area of apartment complexes and office buildings east of San Diego's tony La Jolla section.

Carle said if environmentalists were behind the fire, he didn't understand their motivation: More trees would be cut down to rebuild the structure.
----
This radical environmentalist group has burned entire lots of new cars and multiple buildings before. Considering the millions of dollars that these people have burned in the past 15-20 years, I think should the leaders ever be caught they ought to be sent to Guantanamo. Its actually quite funny when you think about it....since the population is growing, where do these people want us to live? In caves? In trees? And here's another question- By setting buildings ablaze arent you just causing more pollution?

I would love to see these enivro-arsonist losers arrested and put away for a very long time.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
vafi88
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Sun Aug 03, 2003 1:30 am

I understand being for nature and loving it, hell, even I like to go up in the mountains sometimes, but this is really out of hand! the bad thing about ELF is that nobody knows who they are! So they can't arrest them! They are a really hush hush organization build out of many cells and you can't really track them down. Yes, this IS terrorism, from Terrorists of another nature.

God, I hope they find them and BURN THEM!!!
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
aloges
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Sun Aug 03, 2003 1:40 am

Oh how I love it when some extremists decide that they just have to destroy everything they can get hold of in the name of their "beliefs".  Yeah sure There's simply no better way to alienate people from agreeing with them. Stupid, very stupid.

If they protested against gold mines that poison the environment with loads of mercury, or against leaking oil pipelines, or even against strip mining, they would probably not be perceived as terrorists, but as activists.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Sun Aug 03, 2003 1:56 am

I wouldn't quite call that terrorism though. They aren't attacking ME or my coutnry, jsut a busienss or company or corporation.

In essence, it's low on my priority list unless people get hurt.

I wont even get into how stupid this kind of thing is to do. It's obvious how dumb it is, and isn't worth giving them any more of my time than they've already received.

-Phil
Phil Derner Jr.
 
vafi88
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Sun Aug 03, 2003 2:30 am

-Phil - destroying large property on purpose to get something IS terrorism. I remember they attacked and burned down some lodge in the mountains, don't remember if there are any casualties or not, but they planned it out so well, that they weren't caught and didn't even leave prints and dogs couldn't find any leads.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
BarfBag
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Sun Aug 03, 2003 2:58 am

The incident happened a few hundred yards from my workplace. Whoever did it chose a very nice time - the weather had been dry, the wooden framework had been built, but nothing more - just perfect from an arsonist's viewpoint. There's been a huge amount of property development in the UTC area in recent times, and I believe there's been a fair degree of opposition to all the building activity in La Jolla, but arson as a means of protest is out of question.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:15 am

These are terrorists, through and through, and one day that will catch up with them.

They are bound to slip up and hurt/kill innocent people. After that, they will be hunted down like dogs.

Have these idiots ever considered the pollution from burning things!?

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
johnboy
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Sun Aug 03, 2003 6:37 pm

I don't get the choice of targets. It's not like UTC is in a pristine wilderness area.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Sun Aug 03, 2003 6:49 pm

ELF and EarthFirst are clearly terrorist orginsations in the same ilk as Bin-Laudin or Hamas.

Greenpeace, PETA are the next level below it. They are don't get into the real criminal stuff that could get people killed. They just do petty vandalism and tresspassing. But they don't condemm the arson or manslaughter when it does happen.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
777236ER
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Sun Aug 03, 2003 8:36 pm

Considering the millions of dollars that these people have burned in the past 15-20 years, I think should the leaders ever be caught they ought to be sent to Guantanamo

And here it is. Jcs17 seems to think that American citizens should be sent to an illegal base, with no charges, no legal representation and no trial by jury. Land of the free?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
vafi88
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Sun Aug 03, 2003 10:58 pm

The thing is, they have killed a few people ( I believe), but the government cannot find them. they do Have a Website. it's like elf.com or Earthliberationfront.com and the government checks that site 24/7 and if you visit, you're probably suspected of being an ELF (no joke). They cannot find them, the cells are so small, and scattered, and their plans are brilliant (considering they still can't find any leads)
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
jcs17
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:13 am

And here it is. Jcs17 seems to think that American citizens should be sent to an illegal base, with no charges, no legal representation and no trial by jury. Land of the free?

Have you ever heard of the term: enemy combatant? I didnt think so.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
777236ER
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:18 am

Have you ever heard of the term: enemy combatant? I didnt think so.

I've heard the term "enemy soldier", in which case the Geneva convention clearly applies. Unless you're not American, in which case you're an "enemy combatant" and the Geneva convention is suspended. Have I got that right?

American citizens are entitled to a trial Jcs17, whatever you may want.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
vafi88
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:36 am

So are you saying NOT American people aren't entitled to one?? Either way, these people are extreme activists, and there's nothing I hate more ( maybe except censors and politicians)
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
777236ER
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:25 am

So are you saying NOT American people aren't entitled to one??

No of course not, but even the most stringent pro-American conservative can't deny an American the right to trial - like Jcs17 seems to be implying.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Stratofish
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:39 am

You call environmentalists terrorists???  Nuts  Nuts  Nuts

You know, the color black is the dark one and white is the bright one. I know sometimes one can mix that up.  Yeah sure

I do not know what is wrong with you... well, maybe you just are something/-body wrong in the first place.
Sending people to Guantanamo is, regarding the present situation there, more than disgusting! There are simply no words.

"Considering the millions of dollars that these people have burned in the past 15-20 years..."
Considering the millions of acres those businessmen have destroyed... oh wait, these points you will simply not understand because it takes two things to do so: 1. eyes which do not shut out the real world whenever there is (potential) $$$ involved and 2. an understanding about right and wrong in the first place.

"enemy combatants"
While others have rightfully pointed out whats wrong with the use of that term and the "trials" at Guantanamo...
You compare environmentalists who are not half as militant as some capitalist "land developers" can be to people who are looting villages, raping women and kill people of all ages???

YOU ARE FREAKING (put something that would get me banned in here)!!!  Pissed  Pissed  Pissed
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
JAL777
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:50 am

Stratofish,

Reguardless of what you thinks is "right or wrong" the property is not yours and you have no right to say what does and does not happen there. Sorry. If it distresses you so much, then go ahead and buy the land yourself. What you think is right or wrong may not be so for everyone else.
 
Stratofish
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:19 am

JAL777:
That is in fact the major difference/problem.
You say its the property of xyz and he/she can do with it whatever he/she wants. But (to me) possesing property inherits a good level of responsibility. So I beg to differ and say, I do have a right "to say what happens there". It may have an impact on me or others sometime.

I do not say burning down places and endanger people is right. But unresposible use of landownership is worse IMHO (and certainlywrong).
Another example: I do not own a squareinch of Alaska, never did nor will. But I do know for a fact (because of knowledge and education etc.) that drilling for Oil there is fundamentally wrong. And I think I (and you of course) have a right to say so and to demand our view is followed.

If you follow your logic your neighbor can decide to open up a toxic waste dump in his backyard. It´s his land so you have no say on what happens there. See what I mean?

And btw,
"then go ahead and buy the land yourself."
Most land (anywhere in the western world) is in the hands over overindulged, overpriviliged, rich, no-good, undereducated, stupid and selfish landowners. I will not become one of them, even if I could afford it (which is not the case).
- I did not fingerpoint to any forummember here -

ENVIRONMENTALISTS DESERVE OUR RESPECT AND ARE BY NO MEANS TERRORISTS!!!
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
JAL777
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:25 am

Sorry Stratofish, but I don't agree with anything you have to say. Land ownderships comes with responsibilities that are set forward in zoning laws. So long as landowners follow them, you have no right to say what does and does not happen there.

Your views on US Government owned Alaskan land are irrelevant. You are not a voting citizen of the United States. Just as most people would prefer for the United States not to interfere in internal affairs of foreign countries, do no interfere in ours.

Most land in the United States (don't know about the rest of the "western world") is owned by the government followed by individual home and land owners, not by "corporations."

Environmentalists DO NOT deserve my respect... they are not entitled to it.

[Edited 2003-08-03 20:27:01]
 
radarbeam
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:49 am

I went on their website and let me tell you, it's unreal. Apparently those people are missing a part of their brain, because even a 6 year ols kind is more inteligent than those paranoid-scumbags. I just wish they are found and thrown in jail for a long long time.
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:49 am

" Your views on US Government owned Alaskan land are irrelevant. You are not a voting citizen of the United States. Just as most people would prefer for the United States not to interfere in internal affairs of foreign countries, do no interfere in ours."

I chose that example because the chances you know about the issue were higher than if I had picked a European example (of which many exist).

About environment being an internal issue hmmmmm........ , I am too tired for that one tonight.

"...they are not entitled to it."
Yeah, they simply care about what will become of us, our children and grandchildren. And they do not care about the quick $$$, what a bunch of needless morons. *dripping with sarcasm*



ENVIRONMENTALISTS DESERVE OUR RESPECT AND ARE BY NO MEANS TERRORISTS!!!
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
radarbeam
Posts: 998
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:00 am

RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:54 am

Those guys are not even environmentalists, on thei webpage nowhere do they talk about their goal or what are their motivation, all you can find is self-glossing of vandalism and terrorism acts.
 
Stratofish
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:56 am

Ok, I acknowledge torching SUVs at a car dealer does not help the environment and I do not condone such actvities. Although somepoints on their website are very valid!


but still

ENVIRONMENTALISTS DESERVE OUR RESPECT AND ARE BY NO MEANS TERRORISTS!!!
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
JAL777
Posts: 2453
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 10:13 pm

RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:18 am

Here... entertain yourselves.

http://www.earthliberationfront.com/main.shtml

These people are not environmentalists, they're sick nut cases.


[Edited 2003-08-03 21:21:15]
 
bobrayner
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:38 am

You can call those people environmentalists as soon as you call the people who torch abortion clinics "Christians", or as soon as you call people "freedom fighters" when they blow up buses &c.

It's worth distinguishing between the ideology and the methods. Just because one is wrong/right doesn't make the other wrong/right.
Cunning linguist
 
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modernArt
Posts: 465
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:41 am

http://www.lomborg.com/books.htm

This is one environmentalist that I respect. Although, since many of his arguments run counter to mindset of ELF, Greenpeace, the fruitcake Greens and others he's been branded a traitor and is routinely lampooned.

In typical fashion, those that disagree with Lomborg almost never present counter arguments based on scientific fact. Most of their hyperbole has undertones of the true goal of many environmentalists - destruction of capitalism, corporations and the errosion of private property rights.
 
bobrayner
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:00 am

true goal of many environmentalists - destruction of capitalism, corporations and the errosion of private property rights

I think this says a lot about your thoughts on environmentalism.

In typical fashion, those that disagree with Lomborg almost never present counter arguments based on scientific fact.

Lomborg habitually misquotes research, selects only the statistics that match his point of view, and so on.

If you actually believe the guff that Lomborg churns out, I'd be happy to debunk some of it. With real facts.
Cunning linguist
 
bobrayner
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:40 am

Feel like a challenge?

If you wish to present any particular Lomborg-isms (IE where he disagrees with the fruitcake green majority), I will refute them. Here and now, with real facts, rather than just the first favourable statistics that Lomborg can find to back up his argument du jour.

Either that, or you can back down and admit that Lomborg is no more than a mediocre fiction writer. Your choice.  Big grin
Cunning linguist
 
tekelberry
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RE: San Diego Fire Terrorism-Related

Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:40 pm

Enviornmentalists?

Setting a fire will hurt the enviornment.

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