mirrodie
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Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:45 pm

Call me crazy, but I was reading this morning's local paper and came across a story that people in Minneapolis were about to vote in a gay Bishop.

Um, educate me please. Churches with gay bishops? Sounds like an oxymoron or sorts.
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Delboy
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:03 am

Mirrodie......and your point is??

Why not, gays are everywhere else, why not the church!
 
cwapilot
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:17 am

Well then, Delboy, why not vote in bishops who also live with their mistresses or various other opposite-sex partner, in what the Church holds as a sinful relationship for 13 years like this guy? It is one thing to say that gays deserve the same rights and protections in society as everyone else. However, whether you agree with Church teachings or not, they ARE the Church's teachings, and someone blatantly defying those teachings does not belong in a position of authority in that Church. Would it make sense to appoint a Grand Ayatollah who habitually eats pork, and runs websites and support groups for Muslims who like pork?

It is clear from listening to his supporters, especially a female cleric from Los Angeles I saw interviewed yesterday, that this is part of a political agenda on the part of homosexual groups who have no interest in actually participating in the Episcopal church. The question remains, why on earth would you remain part of an institution and try to attain a position of power within that same institution, which holds your lifestyle as sinful? If he had the Episcopal Church's best interests at heart, seeing that this may well lead to another schism, he wouldhave stepped aside.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
Delboy
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:10 am


I'm neither gay or a believer in this God and religion stuff, however I do find it slightly amusing that this is happening, he he!!

However, I'm going back to my Sunday school days, but did God not say that everyone was equal in his eyes. I'm sure there were gays around in his day, probably well in the closet, but......

Don't really want to start a debate here as I have no strong views either way, live and let live is my motto so long as you don't touch my bum or come knocking my front door with a bible in their hands.
 
cwapilot
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:25 am

I agree, Delboy, I am the same way. That is also exactly why you or I would not make a good Anglican bishop! Any moreso than someone who can't live by the rules. That is not to say the rules are right, but if you are going to be a leader in an organization, you should be expected to live by those rules.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
triscl
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:15 pm

It seems to me that the Episcopal Church, and the Curch England too, have a tradition of questioning authority--e.g., divorce, women in the clergy...

I am not an expert in church teachings, but if the Episcopalian views are anything like the Catholic, it is not a sin to identify as gay. (I'm not Catholic, but I did go to a Catholic high school! I happen to think the Catholic position on homosexuality is hateful) However, I haven't read anything about his bedroom life.

I suppost that living by the rules of an organization is important for its leaders, but so is recognizing when those rules have become anachronistic. I think it's up to the clergy to review things and decide what is and what is not "consistent" with what God's teachings are. There certainly has been lots of change in Christianity in the last 2000 years!


 
mirrodie
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:44 pm

And your point is....
Sounds like an oxymoron....meaning that we seem to hear all about the church and teachings on sex/church, yet this is at the heart of the matter.


Hetero and homo (and asexual) people are abound. But WHY does issue HAve to come up at all about the individuals sexuality?

too bad. gotta love sex, religion and politics!
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User avatar
Goodbye
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:25 pm

Seems like a bit of hipocrisy, the people saying it shouldnt be allowed...they let child molesters and paedophiles in the church, yet cry foul when gay people are allowed.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:31 pm

Seems like a bit of hipocrisy, the people saying it shouldnt be allowed...they let child molesters and paedophiles in the church, yet cry foul when gay people are allowed.

Welcome back to the controversial discussions, I'm gonna remind you now of why you avoid them.

To you I suppose all priests are child molesters? You're also confusing Churches.
 
johnboy
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:49 pm

I don't know about agendas....his diocese nominated him, and I can't imagine a Gay Ghetto in Concord, for God's sake.

It's not my church, but I am loving the controversy though. And I DO have an agenda.
 
virgin744
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:46 pm

Its funny that Mirodie would mention this as I was just thinking the same thing this morning... How can a gay person become a man of the faith when that faith -and corrcet me if i'm wrong, most if not all other faiths too, are against homosexuals. As peole I dont hate gay people but in faith they are doing wrong and I find it contradictory & hypocritical to have a gay person within a religious organisation. And if you think its just my own opinion, let me quote from the bible;

Jude 1:3-7 (GOD'S WORD Bible)
What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities near them is an example for us of the punishment of eternal fire. The people of these cities suffered the same fate that God's people and the angels did, because they committed sexual sins and engaged in homosexual activities.

Timothy 1:5-11 (The New American Standard Bible )
But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.



virgin744
 
b757300
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:21 pm

It is clear from listening to his supporters, especially a female cleric from Los Angeles I saw interviewed yesterday, that this is part of a political agenda on the part of homosexual groups who have no interest in actually participating in the Episcopal church. The question remains, why on earth would you remain part of an institution and try to attain a position of power within that same institution, which holds your lifestyle as sinful? If he had the Episcopal Church's best interests at heart, seeing that this may well lead to another schism, he would have stepped aside.

BINGO!
_________________________________________________________

Homosexuality is incompatible with Christianity. One cannot be a homosexual and a Christian. While the Bible says we should love our fellow man, it also says that a person who is actively living in sin and is not repentant cannot be a member of the Church.

Sadly I'm not really surprised by this. The Episcopal Church has been taken over by the liberal elements which have about as much regard for the Bible as the ACLU. This will split the church for sure and in the end will the church that continues to believe the truth will be better off without the hypocrites.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
JAL777
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:26 pm

Folks,

You need to make a distinction between homosexuality and engaging in homosexual activity. I was taught, in a catholic school mind you, that one is a sin an incompatible with the church, while the other is not.

-JAL
 
MD-90
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:21 am

Personally, I would totally accept homosexuality if the Bible didn't say it was a sin (yes, I'm not kidding, I really would). I know a guy in my church who is gay and doesn't want to be, as yes he's a member, been baptized, sings in the choir, et al, and he's struggling with himself. He's trying to change with what I know is everything that he has in him...in that case I'd say you could be "gay" and Christian.
 
jhooper
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:39 am


Hetero and homo (and asexual) people are abound. But WHY does issue HAve to come up at all about the individuals sexuality?


Amen. Why does it have to keep coming up? It seems like everytime I turn on the TV they have to be talking about gay this and gay that. Look, I don't have a big problem with gay people, but I really don't want to hear about it all the time! One of my friend's roommates is gay, and it seems like that's all he ever talks about (i.e. his gayness, he's going out to a gay club, he's chatting with his gay friends). I know we live in a biased society, but it probably wouldn't be so bad if they didn't dress up in rainbow colors and march down the streets. I'm not for discrimination in any form, but let's face it, gay people largely give themselves the negative image they have by acting that way. Of course, not all of them act that way, but enough people do to turn the majority of society off.

Back to the issue at hand: this bishop is probably a great spiritual man (otherwise why would they even contemplate making him a bishop, or a reverend for that matter). Unfortunately, he will be identified not as a bishop, but as a gay bishop because people will never be able to see past this issue. That's why he probably just should have stayed in the closet and not let it become an issue. Now a church is being torn apart over one person's crusade at making a social statment.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:07 am

A couple of questions - does this bishop engage in sexual activity of any sort? If not, then there "sexual preference" shouldn't play a role, but since homosexuality is in most cases defined by sex acts, what is the Episcopalian view of sex between unmarried individuals, assuming that the bishop is sexually active?
 
jhooper
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:44 am

He was married for a woman for I think nearly 15 years, then he became involved with a man for the last 15 years or so.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
kevi747
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:38 am

Why would any gay person want to be associated with a religion that follows the crazed writings in an ancient book of lies used throughout history to oppress us?  Confused I don't get it.

Christians don't like us. When you have to say, "I don't have a problem with gay people BUT...I just don't like what they do." The "but" negates the first part of the sentence. (OK, start making "butt" jokes about that one. Why do I open myself up for this here?) Besides, its what we "do" that makes us who we are.

I understand and support people's desire to explore a spiritual life, but it always seems to somehow involve christianity (at least in America anyway).

"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
 
triscl
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:30 am

Okay, I also think a gay person would want to hesitate before turning to the church for anything--I for one run screaming every time I'm asked to go to my family's crazy church in Southern California--but the Episcopal Church is different than, say, the Southern Baptist Convention. Like I said before, I think Episcopalians are more amenable to the idea of change and reinterpretation, which is why it's attracted more of a "liberal" set.

And I think it's understandable that people in the United States often turn to Christianity for spirituality. It's ubiquitous. It's hard to walk down the street and not run into a Christian Bookstore in some parts of the country. I am happy, however, to live in NY where that doesn't happen.
 
tranceport
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:49 am

JHooper wrote:

Amen. Why does it have to keep coming up? It seems like everytime I turn on the TV they have to be talking about gay this and gay that. Look, I don't have a big problem with gay people, but I really don't want to hear about it all the time! One of my friend's roommates is gay, and it seems like that's all he ever talks about (i.e. his gayness, he's going out to a gay club, he's chatting with his gay friends). I know we live in a biased society, but it probably wouldn't be so bad if they didn't dress up in rainbow colors and march down the streets. I'm not for discrimination in any form, but let's face it, gay people largely give themselves the negative image they have by acting that way. Of course, not all of them act that way, but enough people do to turn the majority of society off.

Would you be open to the suggestion that you just perhaps are not used to the idea of homosexuality becoming more mainstream? I am not here to try to change your mind or your ideas, but I would challenge you to spend one day and observe how heterosexuality "keeps coming up" in your everyday life. Almost every single aspect of mainstream American culture is geared toward heterosexuality. Your attraction to women flavours the clothing you wear, the activities you plan, the places you go, the way you behave, and the things you talk about. I would venture to say that in your life that straight things "keep coming up" because it is a large defining characteristic of who you are. When you are with your buddies, does the topic of going out with girls or discussing this hot chick or that babe not come up with any regularity?

I do understand your viewpoint. AlI used to feel much like you do now. I don't know what exposure you have had to gay guys, but if you have had much at all you probably have noticed as I have that to a certain segment of them, everything actively revolves around being gay. It's a bit hard to explain since sexuality is so omnipresent in our lives, but I'm talking about a general lifestyle. Some guys are so busy being gay and only being involved in a gay lifestyle (gay night clubs, their gayness, their gay friends, this gay event, that gay event, etc.) that they miss out on the wider world that is bypassing them. I have always found that a little sad, but then I had to realise that I went through that phase too. Although some people never seem to grow out of it, you have to have a little understanding.

For many of us, we spent between the first fifteen to forty years of our lives hiding and pretending to be something other than what we really are. For those of us who lived a part of our lives as closeted gay guys, our only interactions with other gay guys have been in gay clubs/night clubs, internet chat rooms, bathhouses or cities far from home where we didn't have the fear of being "found out". That kind of living takes a certain toll on an individual. When and IF a person reaches that point where they decided enough is enough and that they are tired of the double life, the lies, and all the secrets; then unless you have personally experienced it you cannot imagine what it is like to finally throw off that cloak that so many of us have lived under. For a period of time you absolutely revel in your new found freedom in a way that you probably will never understand. Many people who have never been able to talk about their lives and express themselves freely before suddenly are enthralled to discuss their homosexuality all the time.

It's like the floodgates are open and you can connect with other guys with similar experiences. You become part of a community where for the first time you really feel accepted and like you are with your own kind. Maybe that sounds kind of crazy, but with many of the attitudes towards homosexuals today, it is a most amazing thing. It is natural that at this time in your life you want to surround yourself with gay friends, explore "gay" things, and talk about your "gayness" all the time. As an aside, in all fairness, I'd bet you still talk about your "straightness" all the time. You've just grown up with it as the norm so you've never really noticed it.

Some people never seem to move beyond that stage, and to me they miss out on a lot of living. However, for some it appears that is where they find their safety net, and if that is the case I say more power to them. What eventually happened to me is that I fell for someone and became involved in a long term monogamous relationship. Our lives probably more or less mirror any heterosexual couple's life, with some obvious exceptions. We don't go to gay clubs....we go where they play good music. We don't seek out gay friends.....although we have them, we look for qualities in people that make them good, fun people to be around no matter what their gender or sexual preference. We don't attend the local pride parade because it's a gay event....we like to go for the entertainment value. We don't sit around and talk about our gayness.....rather we sit around and argue about what we're going to watch on TV, discuss what we want to do this weekend, or spend an evening paying the monthly bills. Sound familiar? Hopefully so.

I believe there is also the element that people become more socially aware through intense efforts. Although I sometimes am tempted to look askance at certain groups within the gay community, I have always had to remind myself to take a step back and realise that if it weren't for the radical people who are out there making a stir, nothing would be different. If you look back through history, you will notice that all major social changes in a society generally have their roots in some sort of radical or in your face activism. It's the way things work. It is because of these sorts of people who may have had more guts than you and I might ever work up to stand up for what they believe is right and lobby for change who have made it possible for me to enjoy the life that I am able to enjoy today.

With all that said, I also think that gay issues come up too often. I should qualify that by saying that certain gay issues come up too often. When I meet a guy for the first time for friendship and/or dating and the whole conversation revolves around gay gay gay, then I usually know that we don't have a lot in common.

Airliners.net is no exception. I don't read many of the "gay" debates, much less post in them because the majority of them are inane, repetitive and unenlightening. It basically turns into a shouting match between two diametrically opposed groups of individuals. No one is going to convince anyone and all that happens is that tempers flare. I decided to post on this one because I yet have something to say about a gay bishop.

More generally speaking......

My position is plain and simple and it's going to draw heat. I don't believe that gay people should hold positions in organised religion. Before some of you start foaming at the mouth, note that I spent twenty-five years in a fundamental Mennonite religious environment. I know Scripture inside and out. I know more about a life of no television, no radio, no dancing, no movies......everything is sin sin sin than you will ever begin to dream about. I know about twenty-five years of life not allowed to wear shorts and only knowing a mother and female siblings who wear dresses, no make up and a head covering. I bet you do things in innocence that cause more conservative groups to wisely shake their heads and utter, "Those poor fools." I know more about a conservative philosophy and life than 99.9% of you can even imagine in your most conservative musings.

It's straightforward. The Bible condemns homosexuality in both the New and Old Testaments. I don't care about the arguments that the Bible is fallible because it is written by man or the assertions that it is outdated and at best a myth or a fable. I leave that where it's at. People who are Christians and spout Scripture in their condemnation of homosexuality better read the rest of the Bible carefully. If they apply the same principles to themselves found in the Scripture as the standard they apply to homosexuals, then they better hope there is a merciful God because no one stands a chance and even the most devout of you is riding a runaway train to the pits of Hell.

The point of all this is that Christianity is founded on the Bible. No matter what you believe or do not believe, that fact is true. And it is irrefutable that no matter who wrote it, those principles include condemnations of homosexual behavior in both the Old and New Testaments. I joined my church voluntarily when I was young and I left it voluntarily when I decided it was not for me. I'm having a hard time saying what I mean here. Since the church has its foundations in the Bible, it essentially cannot or should not change its rules to accomodate people. It doesn't matter if the issue is homosexuality, premarital sex, divorce & remarriage, bestiality, fornication, drunkeness, etc. If a religious body decides to "change the rules" then they depart from their Biblical foundations. That's why I left religion. It's all fucked up. People have "changed the rules" to accomodate their wishes and desires and overlook the judgements and guidelines that would affect them and zero in with religious fervour on issues that don't affect them or cramp their style. That's why it's so easy for straight Christians to bear down on homosexuality as a nearly unpardonable sin dooming gays to hell while continuing on with their own hedonistic lifestyles. I can say that with some confidence because if most of you who claim to be Christians were measured by the yardstick that I grew up with, then you're all phony anyway. It's all relative.

I had enough of it. When I left religion, I left a way of thinking that cannot by its very nature ever accept who or what I am. I don't expect it to. It's the nature of Christianity. It's just the hypocrisy that was a bitter pill for me.

Just some thoughts. I don't expect anyone to agree and neither do I care. Quite frankly, while we sit here at our keyboards and debate these issues from the comforts of our first world homes, millions of people at this moment are starving, being tortured, torn apart by land mines and bombs, and dying of preventable diseases.

That should make all our little pseudo-intellectual efforts look like a shameful pursuit and cause us to put our differences aside long enough to make a difference if only in just one person's life.

Bring on the wine, sex and song and let the sin begin!!!!
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:53 am

I'm sorry, but did you say they were voting in a gay bishop?

In the gay bishop?

Let me have a moment to comprehend the logistics of such an undertaking.  Big grin
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
jhooper
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:31 am

Tranceport ,

That was a very interesting analysis. In fact, that was so damn good I'm adding you to my respected users list. You're right, heterosexuality is omnipresent all over the place in our daily conversations, etc. and we've gotten so used to it that we really don't even think about it. Even still, though, the topic doesn't usually dominate the conversation, since when I'm having a conversation with someone I usually have many more important things to discuss other than sex.

A little more about my friend's room mate. We all lived in the same college dorm last summer. I really don't understand why, but as cool as I tried to be to him, he never seemed to really want to have very much to do with the rest of us until such time that he decided he wanted to "come out" to us. I mean, we kind of already suspected him of being gay, but we didn't really care. But he just never wanted to grab lunch with us or anything. It was like he was being very exclusive about who he wanted to associate with. So anyway, whenever I try to strike up a conversation with him, I'd like to discuss any activites he might be involved in or interests he may have, but it always seems to come back to his gayness and he really doesn't have anything to talk about other than that, and that gets kind of irritating. I don't talk about girls all the time around him, so I wish he wouldn't talk about guys all the time around me. But your post possibly explains why he does act that way.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
tranceport
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:09 am

Nice reply. I know the type you're referring to exactly. Whatever his deal is, I don't know but it sure sounds as if it's not because you're not trying.

Is Houston a place worth visiting as a destination? I'm down here in Mississippi working for a few months, and a few connects in HOU with CO is as much as I know about that part of Texas. I've heard it's a great city.

Any good spotting at the airport? It looks like you guys are pretty much dominated by CO there. I don't know where downtown is from the airport, but it must be a heck of a long way or else I've never known where to look when we're landing.
 
mirrodie
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 12:08 pm

Jhooperand Trancesport, you are both on my silent respected users list as well. I appreciate your viewpoints.

I know threads of this nature can go awry, but I am lad we can discuss it meaningfully. Thanks.

mirrodie
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
cwapilot
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:05 pm

"To you I suppose all priests are child molesters? You're also confusing Churches."

So, to you, only Catholic priests are child molesters? I wish I could find the report again, but, as a percentage, the number of Catholic priests who are child molesters is no higher than in society at large, and no higher than among clergy of any other denomination. The Catholic Church happens to be the target of liberal media outlets, specifically the Boston Globe, which has had an anti-Catholic agenda for decades. The Church dealt with these isues no differently than any other institution at the time that most of these victims were violated, but we see only one institution having to fork over cash and make apologies.

That having been said, what has happened is, of course, inexcuseable, and heads should be rolling. You'll also notice that, now that the media have moved on to bigger and better things, they could care less about these victims, and we never hear about it any more. Meanwhile, several attorneys are much wealthier, and a lot of people are still hurting.

Child molestation also has nothing to do with the topic. While I am not in support of the homosexual political agenda, I don't think it is fair that, every time these issues come up, it leads to suggestions of child molestation. Again, I am sure there are no more homosexual child molesters than heterosexual child molesters.

Finally, living in a 15 year homosexual relationship after leaving your family is not exactly the profile of the typical, ideal bishop of any church.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:08 pm

Ummm, cwapilot, I happen to be a Catholic. And I was speaking AGAINST Goodbye's generalizaition.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
cwapilot
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:18 pm

The first sentence of that quote would indicate that. The second sentence alludes to another ugly generalization that needs to go away.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:28 pm

Well true. But it is important to distinguish the Anglecan Chruch's problems from those of the Catholics Church. Of course this demonstrates how Goodbye, like some others like to generalize. Of course the Church (Catholic) has had some pedophile priests, but that number has been low. I do believe that some tougher penalties are needed to ensure this doesn't happen again.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
cwapilot
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:33 pm

They need to hand them over to the local prosecutors and take their collars away immediately upon conviction, and let the state correctional institutions worry about counseling and rehabilitation. Then, they should never be allowed around children again...regardless of church.

Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:36 pm

Agreed Cwapilot, definately agreed. My own priest Father Ron Gollatz would agree as well! He wrote an open letter to Cardinal Francis George of Chicago demanding action!

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:04 pm

Much like abortion, a persons sex life is a private matter and none of the churches business. or anyone else's for that matter.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
cwapilot
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:07 pm

...unless the church's business is your job. Nobody forced him into his career. Aside from that, he has made it his mission to make it everyone's business, hasn't he?!
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:49 pm

It doesn't matter ....Its not the churches business. Even if he's open about it. I would at least give him credit for being honest.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
kevi747
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RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:54 pm

Tranceport,

Thank you so much for putting everything so clearly. I agree with everything you said. I sometimes have a hard time finding the patience to explain my life to straight people.

I get very frustrated sometimes because the number one complaint that most straight people have about us is that they don't care if we're gay, they just don't want to ever have to see or hear about it. They want us to blend into society and never remind them that we're different in any way. Yet they fight tooth and nail to make sure that we can't blend in. They make sure that WE'RE constantly reminded that we're different and less-than-equal. We don't get to enjoy any of the privledges that they have: the right to marry whomever we love, the opportunity to adopt children, and the right to be protected against discrimination at work, etc. These are all things that we have to fight for, and the fight goes on. Too many of us have become complacent.

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to post your thoughts.

Kevin

"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
 
tekelberry
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 6:37 am

RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:34 pm

Delboy,

The church is supposed to be a place for MORAL support. As much as I side with most gay rights issues, allowing their LEADERSHIP in churches is ridiculous. Church-going people are going to get the message that it's alright to be gay and it's acceptable. As much as I respect those who are gay, we shouldn't send a message to the religious moral people of the world that gayness should be promoted.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:21 pm

I'll stay away from this one. It has become a forum, over and over again, on this subject, for so-called "Christians" to bash gays, and use religion as a tool to try and discrimnate against gays. And such threads also become a forum for guys like Kevi747 to launch into anti-religious tirades, and call The Good Book "crazed writings in an ancient book", thus offending those of us who believe-and know-it's more than that.

So have fun beating each other up, and making fools of yourselves.
 
tranceport
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2003 5:56 am

RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Fri Aug 08, 2003 4:27 am

It took me a long time in life to learn that it is possible to debate issues without beating other people up and making a fool of yourself. It is hard for some people to do though, and although it is inexcusable it is understandable. It takes a lot of fortitude and self restraint to hold your tongue when the things that are nearest and dearest to your heart are challenged.

The type of debate that is often found on airliners.net is typical of what I find in the North American news media. It may occur the wide world over, but I haven't been there, so I can't say. It avoids any intellectual depth and resorts to mudslinging and superficial personal insults and attacks, which does nothing but drive all parties to dig their heels even deeper into the trenches they hollow out for themselves. My guess is that the upcoming presidential elections in the USA in 2004 are going to exemplify this sort of behaviour in glorious detail. I enjoy reading Newsweek and Time magazines, but barring any catastrophes or otherwise newsworthy issues over the next year and a half, they won't even be worth purchasing and reading.

I think that defeats the purpose of debate over some issues. There are issues over which people will never change their minds because of deep seated moral, religious, or political beliefs. However, if people could get their heads out of the sand long enough to realise that debate on these sorts of issues is not to convert someone to your side but rather to present it in such a way that there can be more understanding, then it could actually work like it's supposed to work. Understanding does not have to mean acceptance.
 
DoorsToManual
Posts: 1453
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:28 am

RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:38 am

I think some people are confusing the bible with the non-fiction genre....big mistake, and the cause of all the church's problems!
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Voting In A Gay Bishop?

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:51 pm

There is a positive side to this. As it is Priests and Mullahs have quite a justified reputation for buggering young boys behind churches/mosques. With an openly gay bishop, chances of these kind of things happening are reduced, since everybody knows and so can take, err precautions!

But seriously, I firmly believe in following a policy of "dont-ask and dont tell". Church is about the community spirit, and not about individual preferences. People should avoid doing anything that prevents the community from coming together for common good. The community is formed of people with different beliefs, and it is best to not offend anyone and take everyone along. A "Gay Bishop" prevents taht kind of assimilation.

-Roy

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