jcs17
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What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sat Aug 09, 2003 1:41 pm

Now that Matt D has outlined his platform for his run at governor of California. I think I will ask the question, what changes would you like to see in American laws and policy, either state or national?

Foreign Policy:
-Make sure that the Chinese understand that an attack on Taiwan is an attack on America and will not be tolerated. Reiterate to them that although we dont want war, our government will ensure that following an attack against Taiwan will signal the end of Communism in China.

-End US aid to nations that clearly have not used American taxpayer money for the good of their people. This also means ending aid to nations that harbor terrorists, and foster strong anti-American/Western movements.

-Demand a reorganization of the UN. It has turned into an Anti-American/anti-British/anti-Semetic/pro-despot love fest. This means, no more allowing countries like Iran to be head of human rights committees, and ensuring that the UN does not become a platform for political debate, but instead is used for what it was intended to be used for...a platform for worldwide development and human rights committments. If they dont want to reorganize...pull out. If the UN spent half the time on countries like Zimbabwe like they do bashing Israel, the world would be a much better place.

-Pull American bases from Germany. Relocate them to countries like Poland or the Czech Rep. A nation that decides not to stand united with us, should not be receiving American money or American defense.

-Cut military spending for French, Belgian, and German products. A nation that refuses to stand with us should not be recieving American dollars.

-Make North Korea understand that the day they decide to launch missles at Seoul or Tokyo will be the day that Pyongyang is obliterated.

-Demand that Vincente Fox reform Mexico and that America is not the place to dump "his problems."

-Provide more assistance to nations like Colombia and Venezuela for their problems with anti-government rebels.

National:
-Income tax should be flat, and no more than 10-15%.

-Social security should be an optional benefit. At age 21, give people the right to turn down social security benefits for a substancial decrease in the amount of Social Security tax they pay.

-Welfare should be on a 3 month term...with no renewals availible.

-Repeal all marijuana laws.

-One or two strikes and youre out: Legal immigrants who commit two misdemeanors will be forced to make restitution, deported, and not jailed. Legal immigrants who commit a felony will be jailed, forced to make restitution through labor, then deported. Illegal immigrants, under all crimes, will be deported--including traffic violations.

-Make English the national language. No official document will be availible in any other language

-Follow strict immigration quotas; we will allow a larger number of people from first-world countries, but only allow a small number of third world countries, and allow the economy to dictate these quotas.

-Militarize the borders of Mexico AND Canada. This is not only a good way to promote national security, but also an excellent training tool for our troops. During projects where troops were placed on the Mexican border over the past couple of years--the troops learned a lot and enjoyed it. Dont worry, they wont be shooting people, but they will be returning people.

-Repeal the "Brady Bill."

-Repeal the ADA with a few exceptions.

-Eliminate hate-crime laws....they are discriminatory.

-Eliminate affirmative action...it too is discriminatory.

-All American boys (and possibly females...see next point) after graduating high-school must spend 3 months in military service.

-Females will be able to be drafted, if they do not wish to be drafted, then they should not have females in the service.

-The homeless will be given psychological analysis. If theyre not found to be of sound mind, then they will be placed in a government run hospital. If they are thought to be mentally stable, they will have 6 months to get off the street and get a job and dwelling before an arrest warrant is issued.

State/Local:

-Drinking age will be lowered to 18.

-Require special permits for the operation of an SUV. I dont care if you buy an SUV, but you have to learn to drive it properly.

-Every time a tobacco product is purchased, have the person enter a social security number into a keypad. This will affirm that the person has knowledge of the government-researched health risks associated with tobacco use, and has waived the right to sue.

-Allow concealed weapons.

-If a public school district is not up to demanding standards, shut them down and reimburse the families with money for charter and private schools.

-Prison should not be reformatory. It should be punishment. No TV, no sports, no weightlifting, no friendly visits by the psychologists.

[Edited 2003-08-09 06:46:49]

[Edited 2003-08-09 06:49:58]
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sat Aug 09, 2003 1:44 pm

1. Get rid of California. Nothing but a freakshow, and a BAD representation of the US.

2. Get rid of Demolition Dick from Chicago and rebuild Meigs.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
UAL747
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:50 pm

OH GOD! This thread has trouble written all over it.

I'd like to see a new president in office really soon.

UAL747
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Sabena 690
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:56 pm

-Pull American bases from Germany. Relocate them to countries like Poland or the Czech Rep. A nation that decides not to stand united with us, should not be receiving American money or American defense.

-Cut military spending for French, Belgian, and German products. A nation that refuses to stand with us should not be recieving American dollars.


 Yeah sure  Insane

If you are not with us, you are against us. Typical bush logic. Hopefully, when people are grown up, they will start to realize what statements like the above mean in real life.
 
L-188
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sat Aug 09, 2003 5:54 pm

Actually I would move those bases back to the US.

And I would bring back at least two of the light divisions that where cut in the 1990's. So they can serve as a rapid deployment force.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
B747-437B
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sat Aug 09, 2003 6:24 pm

Not that I disagree with your platform, but I find it interesting that nearly every aspect of foreign policy revolves around the military or the threat of military. If the US continues to project itself globally primarily on the basis of its military strength rather than on the basis of its ideological strength, it will simply encourage more violent response from those that oppose.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
NWA742
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sat Aug 09, 2003 6:42 pm

If you are not with us, you are against us. Typical bush logic. Hopefully, when people are grown up, they will start to realize what statements like the above mean in real life.

Yeah: "typical bush logic", "when people are grown up", "they will start to realize"

Or in other words:

"I'm a 16 year old Belgian child who knows it all about the world, I'm right Bush and all his supporters are wrong".  Insane

I might also note that you mention "when people are grown up", don't be hypocritical Sabena, because you are far from grown up.

Two things you need to understand Sabena 690:

1. Not everybody agrees with you, so don't act like it.
2. You are not to judge Bush and 2/3 of the American people who support him as if you are simply right we are wrong. That may be your personal opinion, but don't act like it's reality.

Now I don't have a problem with you expressing your opinion, but that's not what you did in your reply. Learn to express yourself correctly and speak with some respect, that will get you a lot further in life.



-NWA742

[Edited 2003-08-09 11:44:39]

[Edited 2003-08-09 11:45:49]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Sabena 690
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:31 pm

Let's challenge, NWA742 (btw, you are talking to a 19 year old Belgian adult).

Do you think that the 'if you are not with us you are against us' logic is positive for the foreign policy?

Let's give an example: France and Germany want a military intervention in country X. America is against the intervention, and refuses to participate. How would you act if Germany and France would say: 'You are either with us or against us, and since you do not participate, you are against us'. You would say: 'what an arrogance'. Well, this is exactly what is happening these days with the bush diplomacy and Europe.

You say: 'France, Germany and Belgium opposed to the war, so they are against us, so we remove our military base out of Germany etc etc etc'. Do you see the stupidity now?

Is it because we do not agree with bush his war in Iraq, that we are suddenly against the whole country?

This is of course popular propaganda, but reality????

Do you see my point now?
 
Sabena 690
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:36 pm

It can be helpful from time to time if you think in this way: 'if I would live in Europe, and bush would take this and this measure against me, how would I see this'.

If bush says: Belgium is against us, do you think that I, as a Belgian, will support this?

I can tell you that I still have to meet the first Belgian who supports the bush diplomacy (not that I believe polls but the polls say that more than 90% of the Belgians is against his foreign policy).

His measures are maybe cool for nationalistic patriots, but sometimes you have to realize that bush his decisions also have big influences on other countries, other countries the US will surely need one day in the future, like we need the US.

Instead of excluding countries etc, why not just live nice together? We are all still humans...
 
Scorpio
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sat Aug 09, 2003 8:39 pm

NWA742,

1. Not everybody agrees with you, so don't act like it.

Hey, tell that to Jcs17 and, well, you... You're the ones wishing to punish others for NOT agreeing with you.

Now I don't have a problem with you expressing your opinion, but that's not what you did in your reply. Learn to express yourself correctly and speak with some respect, that will get you a lot further in life.

You mean much in this way?

I'm a 16 year old Belgian child who knows it all about the world, I'm right Bush and all his supporters are wrong".

I might also note that you mention "when people are grown up", don't be hypocritical Sabena, because you are far from grown up.


Practice what you preach, NWA 742.

As for the actual subject matter: it's a cliché, but it's true now more than ever. What would you rather have: a friend that tells you when it believes what you're planning to do is wrong, and tries to stop you from doing something stupid, or a 'friend' that just sucks up to you and says nothing, because they're afraid of what you might do to them? I know what I want...
 
TriStar500
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state

Sat Aug 09, 2003 8:45 pm

So basically, the policies can be summed up to two things:

- piss of every one of your allies with a good dose of superiority complex
- solve every conflict worldwide with the threatening or the use of military force

Thankfully, professional state leaders and diplomats see the world a little bit more complex than that and not only in black or white.

But then, this is only a internet forum, so no reason for anyone to worry or get upset about someone's drastic/ differing opinions. I just find it interesting what some people come up with.  Smile
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sat Aug 09, 2003 11:25 pm

-Make sure that the Chinese understand that an attack on Taiwan is an attack on America and will not be tolerated.

Fine, you go defend Taiwain, Jcs. God, what a reactionary you are!

-End US aid to nations that clearly have not used American taxpayer money for the good of their people.

Does that mean we should not fund the Bush Administration then, Jcs? He sure as haell hasn't put our tax money to good use.

-Demand a reorganization of the UN. It has turned into an Anti-American/anti-British/anti-Semetic/pro-despot love fest.

You have the balls to "demand" anything of the UN, after the way Bush bulldozed it before Iraq? What are you smoking? Maybe if we paid our bills, like we should there, Jcs, we'd get a better shake, perhaps.

-Pull American bases from Germany. Relocate them to countries like Poland or the Czech Rep. A nation that decides not to stand united with us, should not be receiving American money or American defense.

Great move! Pull well-developed bases, from a long-standing ally, who, by the way, HAS stood by us for 50 years now, into nations that have only been allies for less than a decade. What a brilliant concept, Jcs! And all because Germany was against George Bush for going to war. Got any other petty ideas? Oh, let me read on, I'm sure I'll find them.

-Cut military spending for French, Belgian, and German products. A nation that refuses to stand with us should not be recieving American dollars.

They have stood with us, for 50 years, as faithful allies. Yet you, in your pettiness and meanness of spirit, simply because they opposed going to war, want to punish them forever. Do what you propose, then NO ONE in the world will ever trust the U.S. to be a faithful friend ever again.

-Make North Korea understand that the day they decide to launch missles at Seoul or Tokyo will be the day that Pyongyang is obliterated.

I think they know that, son.

- Demand that Vincente Fox reform Mexico and that America is not the place to dump "his problems.

Why do you dare to suppose American should "demand" so much from others? Who are we to dictate to Mexico. You really do want to alienate the U.S. from the whole world, don't you? You make it sound like the U.S. can just demand whatever of the world, and not do anything in return.

-Provide more assistance to nations like Colombia and Venezuela for their problems with anti-government rebels.

Talk about a waste of taxpayer money.

-Income tax should be flat, and no more than 10-15%.

Yes, let's make the rate that most of the rich can get around anyway, even less. Marvelous plan.

Social security should be an optional benefit. At age 21, give people the right to turn down social security benefits for a substancial decrease in the amount of Social Security tax they pay.

And nary a soul would do that. ROTFLMAO.

-Welfare should be on a 3 month term...with no renewals availible.

Yes, let's pour money into the corrupt governments of Columbia and Venezuela, but let's cut off at the balls anyone who is in dire need, simply because you don't like how they live. Let's let a mother of 3, who has lost a job, and let's say a husband, let her kids starve or turn to crime. What a wonderful, compassionate boy you are, Jcs.

-One or two strikes and you're out:

What, are the jails not full enough for you, son? Steal a bike, and you're in for life!!!

Legal immigrants who commit two misdemeanors will be forced to make restitution, deported, and not jailed.

ROTFLMAO. The police state, brought to you by Jcs!  Laugh out loud Welcome to Nazi America!

-Make English the national language. No official document will be availible in any other language

Yes, let's discriminate against the whole world. So, under your idiocy, someone who moves here, and doesn't yet know english, cannot get ANYTHING in his/ler language to get around? The sad thing is, you're serious.

-All American boys (and possibly females...see next point) after graduating high-school must spend 3 months in military service.

Jcs, then go sign up RIGHT NOW, as an example to all of them! Go do your time RIGHT NOW! If you don't, then you're a hypocrite. This is a prime example of militarism that is so damaging this nation. Not everyone can or should be in the military, and we shouldn't force people to serve. The military is a necessary evil, not some institution to be worshipped, as you want.

-Militarize the borders of Mexico AND Canada. This is not only a good way to promote national security, but also an excellent training tool for our troops.

I don't know wheter to laugh or throw up here, Jcs. Let's go make enemies of the two peoples that have been friends with us for ages. Let's make them enemies for life, simply so you can train your precious military, which, to you, is more important than the civilians of the United States. THE MILITARY DOES NOT RULE US, JCS, IT SERVES US. Stop acting like the opposite is true! Left to you, the military, in all it's lunacy, would run this country.

Repeal the "Brady Bill."

Yes, there's not enough firearms in this country. Not enough people are dying from them.

-Repeal the ADA with a few exceptions.

Yes, who cares if someone in a wheelchair doesn't have access. Too bad for them.

-Eliminate hate-crime laws....they are discriminatory.

Yes, while we're at it, let's legalize lynchings of blacks, gays, and anyone else that is "undesirable", who dares not believe in the Judeo-Christian way, or who doesn't conform to your strict interpretation of what an "American" is.

-The homeless will be given psychological analysis. If theyre not found to be of sound mind, then they will be placed in a government run hospital.

Never mind that many rich might be psycho's, let's lock up the poor, the unwanted, the undesirables, and we can do all kind of lovely experiments in hospitals. They're worthless scum, hardly human, anyway, so just sweep them up, and we'll be done with them.

-Every time a tobacco product is purchased, have the person enter a social security number into a keypad. This will affirm that the person has knowledge of the government-researched health risks associated with tobacco use, and has waived the right to sue.

Welcome to "1984".

-Allow concealed weapons.

Yes, let every nut with a grudge have a weapons. What a concept.

-If a public school district is not up to demanding standards, shut them down and reimburse the families with money for charter and private schools.

Yes, let's not WORK at improving the schools, let's just shut them down so we can indoctrinate everyone in religious education, even if that's not what they want. Let's not build better schools, hire better teachers, let's just give up, and give vouchers to everyone.

Folks, I hope you got a good education here. There speaks the voice of neo-conservatism. A belief and a political dogma that 1. Hates the rest of the world; 2. Thinks the military should run the country and should be worshipped, 3. That loathes its own citizens that may not be as productive as others; 4. That wants to make the rich richer, and to lock up the poorest; 5. That wants everone to get reiligious education, even if they don't want it.

This is a dangerous belief and philosophy, and is against everything a free society should stand for. It would make the world subserviant to the United States, or to face its wrath; it would make the civilian subserviant to the military; and would make the poorest and most destitute subserviant and at the mercy of a government that would crush it of all human spirit and meaning.

If you want this type of United States, then you want George W. Bush in office another 5 years. If you believe the United States can and should be a partner with the rest of the world, and should work with, not threaten the rest of the world; if you think the U.S. does have some responsibility to those who are less fortunate in this nation, then you should work to remove him from office. Becuase in a second term, the bullshit that Jcs laid out, much of it will be a reality under this administration.

I'm sure your parents are proud that you've become so bitter towards the world, and so hateful of some of your own fellow citizens in 20 years Jcs. Congratulations.
 
AC320
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:00 am

I think JCS17 is going to give me nightmares now.
fuddle duddle
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:01 am

I think JCS17 is going to give me nightmares now.

Jcs, with those kind of extemists views, IS a nightmare.
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:08 am

Well I guess I just better pay all my tickets, don't want to be deported now.
fuddle duddle
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:13 am

I'm suprised that he didn't add this one.

"-Outlaw the Democratic Party, and have psychological tests for anyone who says they're a Democrat. If they fail the test, the should be held in a state-run institution so they can be properly educated."

That's not sarcasm. I'm truly surprised he didn't add that in there.
 
TriStar500
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:15 am

I understand that the political spectrum is different in every country - something I have learned thanks to the internet - but somebody with such political views would be situated in the extreme far right corner in Germany.

Last itme we had a government with similar ideas was during 1933 - 45.

Quite ironically, that the American people thankfully liberated us and the world from the Nazi scourge back then. Quite disturbing that the very same ideas which so many of your countrymen and -women fought against decades ago now seem to be en vogue with a vocal minority (at least I hope it is not a mainstream ideal)in the "motherland of democracy".
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
gotAirbus
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:17 am

Boeing4ever

1. Get rid of California. Nothing but a freakshow, and a BAD representation of the US.


Not meaning to butt-into this conversation but you've just made tons of children (and 'Nippon' tourists) sad over this...especially over that cartoon mouse with the 2 big ears.  Smile

(gotAirbus?)

[Edited 2003-08-09 17:18:57]
(gotAIRBUS?) - (Got Commonality?) - (Have A Nice Flight!)
 
AC320
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:19 am

Well since the topic is changes, I would like to see Jeb! Bush out of office and replaced with someone who can actually manage and improve state education rather than simply spend all of primary and secondary school teaching a test.
fuddle duddle
 
727LOVER
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:26 am

All boys after high school shoulde enter 3 months of military service.

DOES THAT INCLUDE GAY ONES?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
B747forlife
Posts: 386
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:39 am

Alpha 1 - After your absolutely objective (sic) criticism of Jcs17's ideas, where are yours, which, from what you act like, will bring the USA back into favor with everyone in the entire world.

You have good ideas, I'm sure, but do you get off telling conservatives again and again that you think their ideas are bullshit?

The title of the forum is: "What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov," not "What Changes Would You Like to See In US/state Gov as long as they conform to Alpha 1's wishes."

As I said, you don't agree with Jcs17, so put your answer (which clearly can better answer the question, somehow, sic) to the question up for criticism.

-Nick
 
jcs17
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:42 am

Oh well, I have a life so I dont have time to digest being called a "Nazi" 96 times. I might decide to respond later. I just want to say that people like Alpha1 are the reason why the airliners.net non-av board has fallen the way it has--completely reactionary, hateful, and unaccepting of any opinion unlike his.

I do find it confusing that Alpha1 decided to "teach me a lesson", but decided not to respond to the "Matt D for Governor" thread, which actually had many similar themes. Oh well.... I think someone is out for RR.

See you guys later!  Laugh out loud

By the way, do you notice what the title of thread is? I dont really care about your hatred of my views or what you think of them. I wanted to hear what you would do to change government.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
NWA742
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:08 am

Do you think that the 'if you are not with us you are against us' logic is positive for the foreign policy?

Let's give an example: France and Germany want a military intervention in country X. America is against the intervention, and refuses to participate. How would you act if Germany and France would say: 'You are either with us or against us, and since you do not participate, you are against us'. You would say: 'what an arrogance'. Well, this is exactly what is happening these days with the bush diplomacy and Europe.

You say: 'France, Germany and Belgium opposed to the war, so they are against us, so we remove our military base out of Germany etc etc etc'. Do you see the stupidity now?

Is it because we do not agree with bush his war in Iraq, that we are suddenly against the whole country?

This is of course popular propaganda, but reality????

Do you see my point now?


First thing Sebena, I can't see why you didn't even respond to my reply directed towards you, you just asked what my opinion is on the subject.  Insane

Anyways, for one thing, Bush is using "for us or against us" as mainly a foreign policy ON THE WAR ON TERRORISM. How many times have you heard him use that phrase towards foreign countries with the war in Iraq? That's right, none. That's not his foreign policy. That's why your whole situation with France and Germany using that policy doesn't even make sense, unless both countries were too arrogant to understand that Bush means that on terrorism.

Hey, tell that to Jcs17 and, well, you... You're the ones wishing to punish others for NOT agreeing with you.

JCS17 seems to be quite aware that not everyone agrees with him, and he doesn't talk like that either.

Also, we're more the ones who punish others for breaking international laws, and forming terrorist attacks on our country's citizens.

Practice what you preach, NWA 742.

Could you elaborate?




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
sccutler
Posts: 5603
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:16 am

This reply will be lost in the noise anyway, but what the heck...

1. Recognize the primacy of the states over the federal govenment. Stop using the federal taxing authority to isolate elected representatives from the consequences of their choices.

2. Immediate termination of Cuban embargo; ludicrously-failed policy, supported by both political parties because of fear of backlash by the suoth Florida Cuban expat community; take a stand, do what's right, fade the heat.

3. All employment laws imposed by congress, should apply equally to congress; incredibly enough, the U. S. Congress is typically exempted from complying with a substantial proportion of the laws which they impose upon us. Ask any small business owner about the minefield that is regulatiry compliance today.

4. Aggressively pursue an open borders policy with Canada and Mexico, economically and otherwise. Our futures are inextricably entwined, we can acknowledge that and work with it, or we can throw up the barbed wire and wonder about what might have been.

5. Nuke the gay whales for Jesus (just had to throw that one in for comic relief).

Chill out, everyone.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
vafi88
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:19 am

See something revolve around something other than money  Pissed

See the US treat itself in equivalent of other nations and not like it's the boss of everything.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4806
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:43 am

NWA742,

Anyways, for one thing, Bush is using "for us or against us" as mainly a foreign policy ON THE WAR ON TERRORISM. How many times have you heard him use that phrase towards foreign countries with the war in Iraq? That's right, none.

And that makes it right somehow, does it? He's basically saying: 'If you don't agree with the way WE want to fight terrorism, you are against us.' And that is BS, pure and simple. And, only in the war on terrorism? Explain to me again how the war in Iraq fits into this scheme... Remember the statements made by Jcs about Belgium, France and Germany refer to the war on Iraq, where the ties to the 'war on terror' are, shall we say 'questionable' (to use the year's biggest euphemism yet) at best...

That's why your whole situation with France and Germany using that policy doesn't even make sense, unless both countries were too arrogant to understand that Bush means that on terrorism.

His situation makes perfect sense. Let's make his situation a bit more concrete. Say France and Germany are attacked by a new terrorist network. After a while both countries accuse state X, which they've been in trouble with for years, of being behind the attacks, or having ties to the network. They want to go to war with this country. The US, meanwhile, like most other countries, do not find any connection between country X and the terror group. They demand proof from France and Germany. France and Germany give a vague presentation at the UN showing their so-called 'evidence', which is circumstatial and very thin to say the least. The US and the rest of the world obviously are not convinced, and remain opposed. The reaction af Germany and France: You're either with us, or against us!

Pop quiz: What would the US' reaction to this statement be?

JCS17 seems to be quite aware that not everyone agrees with him, and he doesn't talk like that either.

No, he just wishes to punish countries for not agreeing with him.

Also, we're more the ones who punish others for breaking international laws, and forming terrorist attacks on our country's citizens.

But only when there's benefit for the US... You haven't punished Israel for breaking numerous international laws, or Saudi Arabia, where most of the plotting against the US seems to be going on... I wonder why... Oh yes, they're allies! And better allies than say Belgium, France and Germany, because they nicely goose-step in line with G.W. Bush.

Double standards, anyone?

Could you elaborate?

Didn't think I'd have to, as the original quote seems more than adequate, but here we go:

In your original reply you give Sabena690 a lecture on how he should always be polite and respectful to people, and how that will get him further in life. Yet, in the same post you make very disrespectful and condescending remarks towards him (I quoted them in my first reply), calling him a '16 year-old kid' that needs to 'grow up'.

So you don't exactly practice what you preach, NWA 742...
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:03 am

Scorpio,

And that makes it right somehow, does it?

In my opinion, yes.

He's basically saying: 'If you don't agree with the way WE want to fight terrorism, you are against us.' And that is BS, pure and simple. And, only in the war on terrorism? Explain to me again how the war in Iraq fits into this scheme... Remember the statements made by Jcs about Belgium, France and Germany refer to the war on Iraq, where the ties to the 'war on terror' are, shall we say 'questionable' (to use the year's biggest euphemism yet) at best...

No, he's saying that if you're not with us on the war on terrorism, then you're against us. I feel this is certainly a fair policy after 9/11. And that is only BS in your little mind Scorpio.

His situation makes perfect sense. Let's make his situation a bit more concrete. Say France and Germany are attacked by a new terrorist network. After a while both countries accuse state X, which they've been in trouble with for years, of being behind the attacks, or having ties to the network. They want to go to war with this country. The US, meanwhile, like most other countries, do not find any connection between country X and the terror group. They demand proof from France and Germany. France and Germany give a vague presentation at the UN showing their so-called 'evidence', which is circumstatial and very thin to say the least. The US and the rest of the world obviously are not convinced, and remain opposed. The reaction af Germany and France: You're either with us, or against us!

So now we're back to 9/11 and the terrorist attack. I see how that situation would happen, but you are just trying to replace "America" with "France and Germany". You have many things wrong, first off, Bush presented square and informative evidence that Bin Laden was behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks, he even admitted it on tape! If France and Germany did not find connections between Bin Laden and 9/11, then they need to pull their heads out of their asses don't ya think?

No, he just wishes to punish countries for not agreeing with him.

How is that? Or is that just another cheap insult without backing, coming from you Scorpio?

But only when there's benefit for the US...

Oh yeah? Would you call our country having to bring out our forces just to defend ourselves from being attack from terrorists, a benefit? That's low and stupid Scorpio.

You haven't punished Israel for breaking numerous international laws, or Saudi Arabia, where most of the plotting against the US seems to be going on... I wonder why... Oh yes, they're allies! And better allies than say Belgium, France and Germany, because they nicely goose-step in line with G.W. Bush.

Both Israel and Palestine are breaking laws, so If we go attack and punish one of them, that just brings more trouble. That is a much more different situation.

We are having problems with Saudi Arabia as it is, and maybe time will tell whether or not these problems turn into conflict. It's not smart pick fights with all your potiental enemies at once, I though maybe even you knew that Scorpio.

In your original reply you give Sabena690 a lecture on how he should always be polite and respectful to people, and how that will get him further in life. Yet, in the same post you make very disrespectful and condescending remarks towards him (I quoted them in my first reply), calling him a '16 year-old kid' that needs to 'grow up'.

I certainly did not make a disrespectful remark towards him. That was simply an interpretation of his attitude towards Bush and Americans. That why I said, "in other words".

I'm through discussin politics with you Scorpio, since time and time again you still ignore facts and reality.



-NWA742

[Edited 2003-08-09 19:04:05]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4806
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:42 am

NWA742,

No, he's saying that if you're not with us on the war on terrorism, then you're against us. I feel this is certainly a fair policy after 9/11.

Not the way I see it. Basically everyone agrees with the general idea of a 'war on terrorism', i.e. that terrorism needs to be eradicated. However, in Bush's, and apparently also your view, that is not enough. The rest of the world also needs to agree with the way in which the war is fought. For instance: Belgium did not agree attacking Iraq was the best way, or a good way at all, to fight terror. And what did we get for this differing opinion, without being agaist the WOT? Just take a long hard look...

So now we're back to 9/11 and the terrorist attack. I see how that situation would happen, but you are just trying to replace "America" with "France and Germany". You have many things wrong, first off, Bush presented square and informative evidence that Bin Laden was behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks, he even admitted it on tape! If France and Germany did not find connections between Bin Laden and 9/11, then they need to pull their heads out of their asses don't ya think?

I was quite obviously making a comparison to the Iraq crisis. I thought that was quite clear, with subtle hints like "state X, which they've been in trouble with for years", and "a vague presentation at the UN showing their so-called 'evidence'",... Please try again, with that in mind.

How is that? Or is that just another cheap insult without backing, coming from you Scorpio?

Read Jcs' original thread starter: "Cut military spending for French, Belgian, and German products. A nation that refuses to stand with us should not be recieving American dollars."

Conclusion: countries that do not agree, need to be punished. There simply is no other way to twist this.

Oh yeah? Would you call our country having to bring out our forces just to defend ourselves from being attack from terrorists, a benefit? That's low and stupid Scorpio.

Economic and strategic benefit. You and I both know the US did not attack Iraq because of fear they'd beattacked by terrorists.

Both Israel and Palestine are breaking laws, so If we go attack and punish one of them, that just brings more trouble. That is a much more different situation.

Does the US even recognise Palestine as an independent state?

We are having problems with Saudi Arabia as it is, and maybe time will tell whether or not these problems turn into conflict. It's not smart pick fights with all your potiental enemies at once, I though maybe even you knew that Scorpio.

LOL! Best cop-out in years!

And that is only BS in your little mind Scorpio.
...just another cheap insult without backing, coming from you Scorpio?
That's low and stupid Scorpio.
I though maybe even you knew that Scorpio.


Both you and me are adults. We are trying to discuss these matters in an adult way, at least I know I am. I refrained from making any condescending or otherwise disrespectful remarks towards your persona, unlike you (see quotes above). These little childish remarks stand in the way of a decent discussion, and are not needed to reinforce your point. So I would very much appreciate it if you refrained from such remarks in the future.

I'm through discussin politics with you Scorpio, since time and time again you still ignore facts and reality.

LOL! If only I had a dollar for every time you said that to me! And it still doesn't make it any more than the desperate attempts of someone fighting a battle already lost...
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:19 am

Funny, you calling me "hateful", Jcs, after your Fascist Manifesto above, which tells the rest of the world to shove it, tells our neighbors to the north and south to shove it, tells the poor and the homeless to shove it. I think the hate is comng from you son, no me.

As for the Matt D, thread, Josh, I didn't bother to read it, because the title didn't interest me. Do you have some kind of problem with that, son?

What kind of changes would I like to see?

-Lift the embargo on Cuba. No, it has nothing to do with Castro's failed attempt at communism, but if there's a better way to turn an enemy into a friend by trading goods with them, and helping to raise their standard of living through trade, I don't know what it is. Cuba threatens no one-it's a puny country, militarily, and it's threat ended when the Soviet Union died. Bring it back into the family of the America's.

-Stricter handgun control. I don't want to infringe on rights of hunters and collectors, but ever Dick out there doesn't need a handgun. Many have been scared by the gun lobby into believing they need one. They do more harm than, good. I guess for those who love gun, 50 million handguns in the country just isn't enough.

-Curb the access of lobby groups-I don't care if it's the NRA or the AARP, or the NEA, or NOW, and I don't care what their political leanings. Lobby groups have helped to take away real political power from ordinary citizens, and they should be severly restricted in their dealings with government, on any level, especiallly in Washington.

-Have a comprehensive training in the military that would get rid of the homophobia that now exists within the ranks. This mindset that "I'm afraid to take a shower with a gay", is a deliberate and institutional attempt by the military to deamonize gays, who are no more prone to sexual mischief than the average straight. We've had many gays serve with honor and distinction in the military, why ignore that fact, and why make it so they automatically get thrown out, while at the same time, we protect straight thugs who commit crimes, as happened at Tailhook. If they want to serve their country, let them. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle, but that doesn't mean they should not allowed to serve their nation.

-There SHOULD be limits on welfare, but not the draconian measures Jcs wants. 2 Years is reasonable, but those on welfare should be mandated to attend job training, which can be sponsored by state, local or the federal government, to make them productive citizens. There would be cases, for those permanently disabled, to receive welfare when it's obvious they cannot properly provide for themselves. And those who have more children after going on welfare, will not get a bigger check.

-Demand an reorgainzation of the UN, but also the U.S. must pay off it's past debt to the organization. Make it clear the U.S. will not tolerate blatant attempts to saddle the American people with more than it's share of the burden of UN costs, or in pinning the U.S. with undue blame for some of the worlds problems.

-On that topic, keep resisting things like Kyoto, or the ICC, or other agreements that were, in part, attempts to make Americans pay and unfair share of envoirnmental problems in the world with the former, and a way to badger Americans around the world wit hthe latter. There is a place for international discourse on these subjects, but when it's blatantly an attempt to nail Americans in some way, that is unacceptable.

-Strengthen our Atlantic Alliance, which was so damaged BY BOTH SIDES in the months before the war in Iraq. Just because France, Germany, Belgium and others didn't agree with us, doesn't mean that, in the long run, they're not our friends, nor that they don't stand with us on the overwhelming majority of issues in the world-they do, and to punish them, as Jcs wants to, for simply exercising their rights as free and independent nations in following what they think is right, is no reason to summarily punish them foever and ever, amen. Leaders may not like each other, but leaders come and go, and those leaders need to look beyond current differences to the long-standing ties of our peoples, which transcend their own personal differences.

-Close ALL loopholes, that still allow wealthy Americans and corporations from getting away from paying their fair share of the taxes in this nation. The majority of the wealthy and corporations do pay their fair share, but there are enough dishonests out there that loopholes that remain should be terminated.

-Repeal these "three strikes and your out" laws. If judges and juries aren't smart enough to realize when a violent criminal should be locked up foever, then maybe the whole system needs to be overhauled. But it does no good to lock up a petty thief for life for stealing petty items, because of a mandated law.

-We do not need the jingoistic step of making English the offical language of the United States. New Immigrants to this nation must have access to documents and the like, in their native language, until the learn the english language. Learning english much be mandatory for all immigrants to this nation if they expect to be citizens, but we cannot deny them the obvious that when they move here, many don't speak english. Indeed, most of the world doesn't speak it, so this arrogance that we demand others sound like us, or to get lost, is for the birds.

-Do what is necessary to strengthen public schools: get rid of these mandator tests for students in certain grades. All that does is force teachers in to teaching the test, not educating children. The government should invest in building better schools in inner cities and poor areas, and to work to get better teachers and ciriculum in those shools. Every school should have computers, so that American students can learn to cope in a computer-driven age. And if parents want to send their kids to private schools, the shouldn't do so on MY tax money. If they want them to go, they should have to pay for it themselves, not get an educational welfare check.

-Instead of punishing those who drive SUV's or other gas-guzzlers, inform Detroit to come up with more fuel efficient vehicles, which they can (and not rob the consumer blind), or face some consequences. If we can send men to the moon, we can make more fuel efficient vehicles.

-Scrap these ridiculous ideas for a Flag Amendment, a Marriage Amendment or an amendment "protecting" the Pledge of Allegiance. The idea of amendments-indeed, for the Constitution itself, was to protect the individual from government intrusion, not to let the government limit the freedoms of the individual, yet here we have people trying to get the government to intrude on things it shouldn't be involved in.

If your flag stands for freedom, then someone burning it in protest must also stand for freedom; don't blame gays and lesbians for the decline of the Family, when heterosexuals, thorugh their high divorce rate, and long history of child and spousal abuse have done more harm than gays ever could. And let some judge say we can't say "God" in the Pledge, be it in school or anywhere else. He can't have the whole country arrested.

Now, back to Jcs's dissertation on the benefits of National Socialists rule.
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:44 am

Geez Alpha1...I'm kind of bummed out. I was thinking for sure you'd have a field day with my post. Oh well...things don't always turn out as expected.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

Welcome To 1984

Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:56 am

Ah I love it when idiots come up with policies that they would use in government. Not that I'm saying Jcs17 is an idiot of course, I mean generally obviously. Anyway...

Make sure that the Chinese understand that an attack on Taiwan is an attack on America and will not be tolerated.

The US needs China to make sure North Korea doesn't go round and destroy most of the Far East. As much as you want to, the US can't bully nuclear superpowers like China round now can it?

End US aid to nations that clearly have not used American taxpayer money for the good of their people.

So end US aid to Iraq? With riots over lack of food, water and petrol quality of life hasn't really improved has it? What about Afghanistan? Despite Bush seemingly ignoring it now (after all, the mission's over right?) there's anarchy in most of the country. What about Israel? Does the US really need to fund more tanks to bulldoze houses in the Gaza Strip?

Demand a reorganization of the UN. It has turned into an Anti-American/anti-British/anti-Semetic/pro-despot love fest.

DEMAND? Is this the peace-loving haven-of-freedom you want us to believe America is? Get a clue Jcs17 - the US completly ignored the UN prior to Iraq. The US has no right to demand anything of the UN right now. Anti-British? If the UN is anti-British is it because of some of the stupid decisions our country's leadership has made. Maybe the same is true for your country.

Pull American bases from Germany. Relocate them to countries like Poland or the Czech Rep. A nation that decides not to stand united with us, should not be receiving American money or American defense.

Pull troops that have been there for half a century? Germany is an ally of the US, don't you get that?

Cut military spending for French, Belgian, and German products. A nation that refuses to stand with us should not be recieving American dollars.

They're ALLIES! The US has vetoed FAR many UN resolutions than any EU country has. If the EU organised this kind of boycott against America for ignoring Kyoto (for example), you'd be the first to start bitching.

Make North Korea understand that the day they decide to launch missles at Seoul or Tokyo will be the day that Pyongyang is obliterated.

I'm pretty sure they know that. Although now you've told them I'm sure they're shaking.

Demand that Vincente Fox reform Mexico and that America is not the place to dump "his problems.

Since when should the US be able to dictate anything to another country? Mexico has democratically elected leadership and is an ALLY of the US. You don't seem to really understand this word.

Provide more assistance to nations like Colombia and Venezuela for their problems with anti-government rebels.

Ah, anti-government rebels! Like the anti-government rebels in the US civil war? One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter - what right does the US have to get embroiled in very very complex internal matters? None at all.

Income tax should be flat, and no more than 10-15%.

Simple as that! Where'd you get your degree in macro-economics from?

Social security should be an optional benefit. At age 21, give people the right to turn down social security benefits for a substancial decrease in the amount of Social Security tax they pay.

Who in their right mind would do that?

Welfare should be on a 3 month term...with no renewals availible.

Do I understand you here? You want to throw money into fighting Terrorism™ in places like Columbia, but you're not willing to support your own citizens?

One or two strikes and you're out

People love baseball (for some reason). Why tamper with the classics? Watch out kids, steal a chocolate bar and you're in prison for life!

Legal immigrants who commit two misdemeanors will be forced to make restitution, deported, and not jailed.

LEGAL immigrants? No way. Where would they be deported to? Imagine you have an Afghani man who lost his family after a "precision-guided" bomb went tits up. He's moved to the US (legally) and has "jay-walked" (what a fucking stupid law) twice. Make him pay for a crossing? Send him (to what's left of his) home?

Make English the national language. No official document will be availible in any other language

That's gonna make it a bit tough when you're telling all those Columbian rebels to stop fighting 'or else'...

All American boys (and possibly females...see next point) after graduating high-school must spend 3 months in military service.

Fucking ridiculous. Once more: FUCKING ridiculous. After high school you'd have people would could be doctors, engineers and presidents go off to the military to learn to kill people? You're meant to be progressive, not teaching every teenager how to KILL SOMEONE.

Militarize the borders of Mexico AND Canada. This is not only a good way to promote national security, but also an excellent training tool for our troops.

Mexico is an ally. CANADA?! Do you actually live in North America? Canada is possibly one of the biggest allies your country has ever (ever) had. Yet you want to send troops to guard the boarder? Stupid!

Eliminate hate-crime laws....they are discriminatory.

Yup, at the same time why not make it legally to kill black people in the good ol' KKK tradition? After all, those laws are discriminatory towards white people!

-The homeless will be given psychological analysis. If theyre not found to be of sound mind, then they will be placed in a government run hospital.

Forced imprisonment of the poor? I don't think even Hitler did that. George Orwell might have thought of it.

Every time a tobacco product is purchased, have the person enter a social security number into a keypad. This will affirm that the person has knowledge of the government-researched health risks associated with tobacco use, and has waived the right to sue.

Gotta love George Orwell don't you?

Allow concealed weapons.

So...you are a bright kid but you have to serve in the military. You have to kill someone. Psychologically this disturbs you. You go back to society with no job and no career and end up homeless. Avoiding the police patrols that would cart you off to The Institute you steal a loaf of bread in order to live. The police come to throw you in prison for life. Luckily you're allowed to carry 5 shotguns, and a couple of submachine guns you managed to smuggle away from the military - welcome to Jcs17s world!

If a public school district is not up to demanding standards, shut them down and reimburse the families with money for charter and private schools.


If a school's not working, shut it down? Throw money at the parents (who were probably desperate for the closure of the school seen as though they get no welfare) and hope the kid somehow gets an education?

Follow strict immigration quotas; we will allow a larger number of people from first-world countries, but only allow a small number of third world countries, and allow the economy to dictate these quotas.

Yet somehow this will close the gap between the rich and the poor of the world. Maybe you think those filthy third-world people will bring those scary diseases like HIV to America.

Females will be able to be drafted, if they do not wish to be drafted, then they should not have females in the service.


"Females"? What happens if some don't want to be in the army and some do (like in a FREE SOCIETY)?

Prison should not be reformatory. It should be punishment. No TV, no sports, no weightlifting, no friendly visits by the psychologists.

There's not going to be any money for TV with lower taxes, a military 3 times the size it is now and 4 times as many prison inmates (not that I feel any grief - Johnny should have thought about the consequences when he stole that can of coke).

Your bone's got a little machine
 
Shamrock1Heavy
Posts: 242
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 8:46 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 4:07 am

Alpha 1 - Nothing but Respect for you! I was going to post something of almost exactly the same thing, until I read your posts. good job!

Normally I would spout my opinion here, but I am keeping clear of political discussions. Too many arguments....Sick of it all. Anyway

-D
when in hell, we'll do shots at the bar
 
SSTjumbo
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 3:29 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 4:24 am

I'm all for evicting Demolition Dick, a.k.a. Mayor Richard M. Daley to France, err... Freedance


Signed
Theodore, the evil conservative bear
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state

Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:09 am

Not that I disagree with your platform, but I find it interesting that nearly every aspect of foreign policy revolves around the military or the threat of military. If the US continues to project itself globally primarily on the basis of its military strength rather than on the basis of its ideological strength, it will simply encourage more violent response from those that oppose.

Sean, we've tried the ideological strength route for eight years and what did we get? 9/11. There will always be people who hate America--for our success, our way of life, and the fact that we are the worlds only remaining superpower. We did nothing to raise the ire of these groups and countries during the Clinton administration and yet they still hate us. There needs to be an active deterrent...and sadly, the only threat that these people understand is a military one.

es, let's make the rate that most of the rich can get around anyway, even less. Marvelous plan.

(sniff) (sniff) Do I smell some class envy? Most of the "rich" do not get around tax laws, in reality tax loopholes are such a fallacy.

And nary a soul would do that. ROTFLMAO.

Actually, many people would do that. To put it your terms Alpha1, a "rich person" and many professionals would much rather save thousands of dollars each year, than recieve a measley social security check each month from the government once they turn 55.

What, are the jails not full enough for you, son? Steal a bike, and you're in for life!!!

I was talking about immigrants. Two strikes and your out means that you will be deported after a second infraction.

ROTFLMAO. The police state, brought to you by Jcs! Laugh out loud Welcome to Nazi America!

Alright, Alpha1. Lets me ask you this question: Lets pretend that your wife is assualted by a legal immigrant. Do you feel that once this person leaves prison he will be an upstanding citizen and should be granted full citizenship and its benefits? I highly doubt it.

Yes, let's discriminate against the whole world. So, under your idiocy, someone who moves here, and doesn't yet know english, cannot get ANYTHING in his/ler language to get around? The sad thing is, you're serious.

Why cant that person learn English? Do you understand the amount of free programs that are availible for non-English speaking people? Its called assimilation, Alpha1. When your great-grandfather or whoever moved to America, I dont think he could get his government papers in a language other than English. The problem is much more serious than what you are thinking, we are creating a Balkanized America....

I don't know wheter to laugh or throw up here, Jcs. Let's go make enemies of the two peoples that have been friends with us for ages. Let's make them enemies for life, simply so you can train your precious military, which, to you, is more important than the civilians of the United States. THE MILITARY DOES NOT RULE US, JCS, IT SERVES US. Stop acting like the opposite is true! Left to you, the military, in all it's lunacy, would run this country.

Huh? I dont see citizens of America illegally trying to cross the border to Mexico or Canada. In fact, I see the exact opposite happening. The military does serve us in this case...and for a very good purpose. If someone can walk across the border unconstested and then demand taxpayer dollars to supplement themselves then why isnt this an issue that concerns us all?

Yes, there's not enough firearms in this country. Not enough people are dying from them.

Did I miss "Bowling for Columbine" last night on HBO or something? Isnt it a shame that most guns used for crimes are illegal? The Brady Bill does nothing except hold back Americans from legally purchasing guns.

Yes, who cares if someone in a wheelchair doesn't have access. Too bad for them.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think its fair that my father's former company purchased a house in Atlanta built in 1903 for their startup, and in order to make it ADA compliant they had to spend an additional 200k? The ADA is useful in many situations, but in some, its completely assinine and anti-development.

Yes, while we're at it, let's legalize lynchings of blacks, gays, and anyone else that is "undesirable", who dares not believe in the Judeo-Christian way, or who doesn't conform to your strict interpretation of what an "American" is.

Hypothetically, an African-American shoots me in the head for reasons of hatred, he gets 40 years in prison. I shoot an African-American in the head, I get a death sentence because it is considered a "hate crime." How is that law not racist?

Never mind that many rich might be psycho's, let's lock up the poor, the unwanted, the undesirables, and we can do all kind of lovely experiments in hospitals. They're worthless scum, hardly human, anyway, so just sweep them up, and we'll be done with them.

Alpha1, youre so compassionate. Its such a nice thought that the homeless who are mentally-ill and can hardly be self-sufficient have to go diving into dumpsters for their next meal, and sleep under newspapers. I find my idea much more appealing; a safe place for these people where they are away from drugs and alcohol, can be properly medicated, sleep in a bed, have three meals, and be off the streets.

Youre one sick fuck for even insinuating that I said anything about performing experiments on them.

Welcome to "1984".

Yeah, corporations should be responsible for someone elses stupidity.

Yes, let's not WORK at improving the schools, let's just shut them down so we can indoctrinate everyone in religious education, even if that's not what they want. Let's not build better schools, hire better teachers, let's just give up, and give vouchers to everyone.

Spare me the bullshit about better schools. The NEA has been saying the same things about "better schools" for the past twenty years...and what have we gotten? Jack shit. Its time to stop prancing around the issue--if teachers and administrators have the threat that they may lose their jobs to private schools, I guarantee you will see an improvent. Why dont you go look at some stats for NYC schools and tell me that these programs have succeeded.

Folks, I hope you got a good education here. There speaks the voice of neo-conservatism. A belief and a political dogma that 1. Hates the rest of the world; 2. Thinks the military should run the country and should be worshipped, 3. That loathes its own citizens that may not be as productive as others; 4. That wants to make the rich richer, and to lock up the poorest; 5. That wants everone to get reiligious education, even if they don't want it.

1. The only countries I hate are those who refuse to support us, even though we have supported them through their darkest days.

2. Now where did I say that exactly?

3. Yes, I hate unproductive people. I suggest others take the same attitude. We must demand the most out of every citizen.

4. No, I dont want to see the rich punished for their success.

5. Not all private schools are religious, chief.

Alpha1, you are such a reactionary individual. In your world, the sky is always falling, and there is always SOMEONE ELSE TO BLAME FOR YOUR OWN PROBLEMS.

-Do what is necessary to strengthen public schools: get rid of these mandator tests for students in certain grades. All that does is force teachers in to teaching the test, not educating children. The government should invest in building better schools in inner cities and poor areas, and to work to get better teachers and ciriculum in those shools. Every school should have computers, so that American students can learn to cope in a computer-driven age. And if parents want to send their kids to private schools, the shouldn't do so on MY tax money. If they want them to go, they should have to pay for it themselves, not get an educational welfare check.

Yeah, nothing like requiring a child to read by Grade 4...I mean, talk about a tough standard. No wonder the teachers are under such pressure. Absolutely pathetic. You'd be hard pressed to find a school in this country that does not have computers...and that is one of the problems. These days we just shove the kids onto the computer and say screw the books, screw learning phonics, screw basic math...as long as the kid can use an Apple he's set for life. We need to get back to basics in the American educational system.

Alpha, why shouldnt that kid living in inner-city Cleveland have the same opportunity as your kid in the suburbs? Why shouldnt he be able to read by the 2nd grade? Does he not deserve a good education?

I dont care if the kid goes to a public school or recieves tax payer money to go to a private school....I just want the child to be properly educated and not leave children behind because they live in lackluster districts.

-Instead of punishing those who drive SUV's or other gas-guzzlers, inform Detroit to come up with more fuel efficient vehicles, which they can (and not rob the consumer blind), or face some consequences. If we can send men to the moon, we can make more fuel efficient vehicles.

The technology still isnt in place, whether you like it or not. Its like asking someone in the 1700s to learn to build an internal combustion engine.

777236ER, your post is so childish and full of insults (actually, less than Alpha1's...surprisingly) so I'm not going to even respond.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:13 am

What an interesting post we have here....
Hey Jcs17, you might even be worst than Bush Jr., well done, it's not easy!  Big thumbs up

I won't comment the foreign policy part, a real piece of garbage but I really loved this one:

The homeless will be given psychological analysis. If theyre not found to be of sound mind, then they will be placed in a government run hospital. If they are thought to be mentally stable, they will have 6 months to get off the street and get a job and dwelling before an arrest warrant is issued.

Arrest an homeless because he has no job. Congratulations again Jcs17, that's a very clever one.  Nuts  Innocent

God, what kind of colleges do you have in Texas to produce that kind of perfect little student dictator....  Confused


Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state

Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:13 am

There will always be people who hate America--for our success, our way of life, and the fact that we are the worlds only remaining superpower. We did nothing to raise the ire of these groups and countries during the Clinton administration and yet they still hate us. There needs to be an active deterrent...and sadly, the only threat that these people understand is a military one.

And still you wonder why America is called 'The arrogant empire'.

One group of people feels itself superior to another one. And want military intervention against those people. From where do I know this?

Alpha1 + Scorpio: again great posts. A pitty I reached the limit in my Respected Users list.

Regards
Frederic
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:15 am

777236ER, your post is so childish and full of insults (actually, less than Alpha1's...surprisingly) so I'm not going to even respond.

You'll respond to Alpha 1's (with less insults?) yet you won't respond to mine? Oh please do. I beg you. Don't throw a tantrum, respond to critism!
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state

Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:03 am

Jcs17:

"Sean, we've tried the ideological strength route for eight years and what did we get? 9/11."

Incredible how you still try to blame Clinton for 9/11. Anyway, if you insist in believing Clinton's Foreign Policy is to blame for 9/11, you better start worrying about Bush's Foreign Policy.

"There will always be people who hate America--for our success, our way of life, and the fact that we are the worlds only remaining superpower."

I agree with the first part of your phrase. The second part, the reasons why people hate the US is another story. If you really believe people become suicide terrorists because of one of the reasons you stated, you're never going to 'win the war on terrorism'.

"We did nothing to raise the ire of these groups and countries during the Clinton administration and yet they still hate us."

'You' also did quite the contrary prior to Clinton; remember who actually trained Osama?

"There needs to be an active deterrent...and sadly, the only threat that these people understand is a military one."

In your short-term thinking perhaps it is. But on the long-run, you will only create more people to 'hate the US' then your undoubtfully great military superpower can ever destroy.

"I was talking about immigrants. Two strikes and your out means that you will be deported after a second infraction."

And just what happens to those legal immigrants, those that actually have become a US citizen by renouncing their original nationality? One-way ticket to Guantanamo?

"When your great-grandfather or whoever moved to America, I dont think he could get his government papers in a language other than English."

In Cheyenne, perhaps?

"...a safe place for these people where they are away from drugs and alcohol, can be properly medicated, sleep in a bed, have three meals, and be off the streets... "

...and locked-up safely so you don't have to see them!

"1. The only countries I hate are those who refuse to support us, even though we have supported them through their darkest days."

I really like this; a 17-year-old stating the 'we have supported them'.

"3. Yes, I hate unproductive people. I suggest others take the same attitude. We must demand the most out of every citizen."

DEMAND? Do you know that Saddam had a very similar way of talking?

"The technology still isnt in place, whether you like it or not."

Strange, this technology has been available in Europe for decades now. It's funny to see how those same US car-companies can come up with (much) more fuel efficient cars for the European market when apparently that same technology doesn't even exists in the US!
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:12 am

Sean, we've tried the ideological strength route for eight years and what did we get?

Josh, I know you've only been around 20 years, but can't you look past Clinton AT ALL? For EIGHT YEARS? Try 50 years, son. We used that ideological strength to fight the cold war under Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Reagan and H.W. Bush. To be sure, we needed military strength, but if you look at the history of the Cold War, diplomacy won the battle, not bruth force. Even in the Missile Crisis, where we stood on the brink of annihilation in 1962, it was diplomacy, BACKED by a threat of force that carried the day, not the George W. Bush School of "Diplomacy", which shoots first, then asks help from the UN later.

The STRENGTH of the ideology goes beyond Clinton and Bush, or Regan and Kennedy-it's not the ideology of conservative or liberal-it's an AMERICAN ideal that a free nation's LAST option should be military force, and that diplomacy can and should be used until there's no other option. Bush did not do that in Iraq-he brushed aside diplomacy, barely giving it lip service, and rushed to war. That goes against the grain of a lifetime of the U.S., and it's going to cause us major headaches, because, if Bush continues this disastrous approach, not a nation in the world will trust the U.S. diplomatically for a long time, and that's a bigger danger to us than Saddam Hussein ever was in George Bush's wildest fantasy.

There will always be people who hate America--for our success, our way of life, and the fact that we are the worlds only remaining superpower.

Yes, you're right, Jcs-you can't please everyone, that is true. But we've gone beyond pissing off those who hate us-we've pissed off and alienated those who truely like the U.S., and the basic precepts of what it stands for-decency, tolerance, patience. Bush has thrown all that out, in his haste to go to war in Iraq. Those who will always hate can take care of themselves, but when you really start to alienate your friends, who is going to stand with you the next time, when you've made it clear that their opinions and ways of looking at things don't matter at all to you? That's what Bush has done, and it's a disatster for long-term relations with our friends.

There needs to be an active deterrent...and sadly, the only threat that these people understand is a military one.

That active deterrent has ALWAYS been there, since the guns fell silent in August, 1945. It IS the U.S. armed forces, no doubt, but the armed forces have almost always been in tandem with a strong, CREDIBLE diplomatic presence. One cannot survive without the other. Nixon would never have been accepted in opening relations with China without that combination; Kennedy would have had a failed hand in the Missile Crisis without that combination; George W. Bush wouldn't have been able to put together that impressive coalition in 1991 without it. You MUST have both. If you don't eventually, it will bite you in your ass, and that's where we're headed right now.

Do I smell some class envy?

Not at all, but do YOU deny the chasm between rich and poor is not growning by the year? It is, and one reason is we let many of the rich cheat-legally-on paying taxes. No class envy, just a fact. I doubt you're rich, so it's funny you'd defend their right to put your nose in it.

I was talking about immigrants. Two strikes and your out means that you will be deported after a second infraction.

Ah, so an immigrant steals a bike, and they're tossed? Do I smell some racism? Deny it, but you have a deep, visceral distrust of foreigners, to the point that you're paranoid about them, son.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think its fair that my father's former company purchased a house in Atlanta built in 1903 for their startup, and in order to make it ADA compliant they had to spend an additional 200k?

Ah, so you break it down to MONEY!!! Screw the disabled person who may want to business with your fathers company, but doesn't have access to the place-who really CARES what happens to a dispabled person, after all, we know they should just be locked up anyway as a financial drain on society.

Yes, it was absolutely fair your father's company do that. If they weren't smart enough to make it accessable for all, that's their problem, not that of the disabled person. Although, how dare those disableds want to do anything, right?

I find my idea much more appealing; a safe place for these people where they are away from drugs and alcohol, can be properly medicated, sleep in a bed, have three meals, and be off the streets.

Don't insult my intelligence, Josh. That's not why you want to do it-you want these people out of sight, out of mind, so they don't infringe on your perfect little life, am I not right? You want them put away, in a virtual prison, because they are destitute. It has NOTHING to do with compassion, of which you have shown very little of in your writings.

Hypothetically, an African-American shoots me in the head for reasons of hatred, he gets 40 years in prison. I shoot an African-American in the head, I get a death sentence because it is considered a "hate crime."

Amazing you say that, since the majority of people who are on death row are black, Jcs. If they shoot you in the head, they'll get life or the death sentence, and if you do the same, so will you. I've rarely seen a case on premeditated murder where someone didn't get life or the chair. Again, you're yelling sour grapes out of your loathing of other races, period. You can deny it, but it's so pervasive on what you say, that it's the truth.

Why cant that person learn English?

DID I NOT SAY THAT? Re-read what I said, son. They should learn to learn English, but left to your hairbrianed ideas, they wouldn't even have access to forms here when they move here. Why the hell should they learn english BEFORE they even decide to come here. We're a minorty, son-most the world doesn't speak our language. They should learn it, but to say flat-out NOTHING will be printed in a foreign language, to assist immigrants, is plain stupid, and of course, it would deter immigration, which, if you ask me, is what you want anyway. The white man is hear already, so why the hell should we care if anyone else wants to come here.

Yeah, corporations should be responsible for someone elses stupidity.

They should be responsible for makiing a product that endagners the public. That doesn't mean people should get off the hook for doing something they know will hurt them, but where is the repsonsibility of the company for making such a product?

Spare me the bullshit about better schools. The NEA has been saying the same things about "better schools" for the past twenty years...and what have we gotten?

So has both George Bush's; so has Bill Clinton, and Ronald Reagan, and every other president. We need a national committment to make sure our schools are sound physically, that there are good, new textbooks, that the teachers are qualified. But under your plan, you just want to give up, throw in the towel, and make everyone a good little Christian-or is that the plan, to make sure everyone has a nice, Christian education. Again, I don't want someone spending MY TAX DOLLARS so their kids get a free ride in a private school. Let them pay for it, if htey want it. As a Republican, one who's party is always harping on self-sufficiency, it amazes me you're for this. But then again, it doesn't, because the GOP has a goal to destroy public education in this nation.

1. The only countries I hate are those who refuse to support us, even though we have supported them through their darkest days.

Iraq was not one of our darkest days, Josh. It was a war our preisdent wanted in the worst way, and was going to get it no matter what. France, Britian, Germany, Belgium, Russia, Japan, South Africa-anyone you can almost name, supported us WHOLEHEARTEDLY in our darkest days-9/11, and they even supported our war in Afghanistan. But they opposed Iraq, a war that most of the world felt didn't need to happen, and you want to cut their balls of FOREVER!! Some "friend" you are. And you have the balls to scream about France? Grow up! These people supported and stood by us before you and I were a gleam in our parents' eyes, son! And they still do, but over ONE ISSUE, you want to make them persona non grata. What pettiness! What shallowness! What short-sightedness!

2. Now where did I say that exactly?

You want compulsury military service; you want to arm our border, for Christ sake, with two friendly nations who have NEVER threatened us. You yell at ANYONE who dares to question the military. You're a miltarist, and militarism in a free society is a very dangerous thing.

3. Yes, I hate unproductive people. I suggest others take the same attitude. We must demand the most out of every citizen.

Thats the biggest difference between you and me. You see, my parents taught me not to hate. Obviously, yours didn't. I hate very little in this world-OBL and Saddam may be about it. But left to you, we'd open a pandora's box, to where these poeple, eventually, wouldn't just be locked up-we'd just get rid of them for daring to be a drain on us, or daring to be sick, or indigent, or crippled, or mentally ill. Impossible? Ask the people of Germany about that, Josh.

4. No, I dont want to see the rich punished for their success.

No, but you want to see the poor punished or locked up for their lack of success. That's why what you want is so dangerous.

5. Not all private schools are religious, chief.

The majority are, son, and you know it, so stop bullshitting me, OK?

Alpha1, you are such a reactionary individual.

Me? Show me anything incredibly reactionary in what I would do? YOU WANT TO LOCK PEOPLE UP FOR BEING HOMELESS! And I'M reactionary. I'm very centrists. If you not, son, I fnd what Superfly stand for, which is extreme liberalism, as distasteful as extreme conservatism. Both are dangerous; both are unwilling to compromise; both are not good for this nation.

If I'm reactionary, then George Bush is Santa Claus.

In your world, the sky is always falling, and there is always SOMEONE ELSE TO BLAME FOR YOUR OWN PROBLEMS.

Sure, that's why YOU want to lock up the poor, or immigrants, or the homeless. Hitler blamed the Jews-you blame the blacks, the gays, the poor, foreigners, the homeless. Get my point?

As for me, I'm an eternal optimist. I believe in the enduring goodness and strength of this nation, despite the damage zealots like Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft and Rumsfeld are doing to this nation. I beleive that the AMERICAN way, not the conservative or liberal way, is stonger than any belief in vogue. I believe that it is our strength as a people, not in a dogma or a political party, that makes us great. You, on the other hand, are looking to blame everyone for our current woes, and you want to punish everyone for that.

Yeah, nothing like requiring a child to read by Grade 4...

These tests, Josh, have nothing to do with that. I have children, son. I SEE the overt emphasis on the tests, and not on education; I see what this mandatory bullshit has done. Toss that away, and go back to the basic of the 3 R's, and do so in buildings that are safe, with teachers who are committed to learning, in communities that want their kids to succeed. Just tossing all of them in private schools, AT MY EXPENSE, isn't the answer, and does NOT guarnatee them a better education.

Alpha, why shouldnt that kid living in inner-city Cleveland have the same opportunity as your kid in the suburbs? Why shouldnt he be able to read by the 2nd grade? Does he not deserve a good education?

You turn into sounding like a liberal Democrat on this issue: LET THE GOVERNMENT GIVE THE MONEY TO PARENTS FOR EDUCATION!!! Why don't we just work to make the schools as good as we can, instead of giving up, and throwing MY MONEY at these people. You can't stand that your tax dollars go to welfare, but you have the balls to ask me why I don't want someone using MY TAX MONEY to educate their child? My two oldest kids have been in public schools all their lives-my daughter is on track, if she keeps the straight and narrow, to get a college scholarship, she's that smart, which I'm very proud of. It has NOTHING to do with private schools, but with the want to learn, and the envoirnment to learn. Simply throwing them in to a Catholic or Baptist school (God help them on the latter) won't make them any smarter, son.

The technology still isnt in place..

Utter crap. It's there, but they don't want to use it. Stop kissing the asses of corporate America, Josh. They can do it, but with Bush in the White House, they'll never be forced to do the right thing.

Again, what you propose would make Hitler and Goebbles proud, Jcs, and that's tragic and dangerous. We've survived for 200 years before 9/11,and before Iraq, and before Bill Clinton, and we'll continue to do so, and we don't need, nor do we require your draconian, dare I say, fascist steps to make this into the most hated nation the world has ever seen. Because, given your way, that's what you'd do.
 
B747-437B
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RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:20 am

We did nothing to raise the ire of these groups and countries during the Clinton administration and yet they still hate us.

Doing nothing was part of the problem. A vast majority of the Arab world took exception to the US military presence in Saudi Arabia. Ostensibly there to protect the Middle East from Saddam in case he tried to launch Kuwait II with the 3 bottle rockets and 5 slingshots he had left in his arsenal, it was plainly obvious that they were there to ensure that the current Saudi regime (who are highly unpopular in their own country) remained in power, thus ensuring a steady supply of oil. This in itself was not a bad thing, but the US forces in Saudi were not subtle about their presence. They were "in your face" about things. They gave lip service to the fact that they were guests in Saudi Arabia and acted as if they owned the place. In a conservative society (yes Josh, the man on the Saudi street is even more conservative than you) like theirs, that bred resentment. They don't want to see blonde girls in shorts driving Humvees down the street and toting submachine guns. That offends their sensibilities and desecrates the "holy land" (which is how they view Saudi Arabia) for them. It was a valid concern that the US under Clinton could and should have addressed, but failed to. And that was THE single largest factor that inspired the young Saudis to sign up for the 9/11 suicide squads. Even the perceived blanket US support for Israel in a conflict where both sides are very obviously guilty of many crimes was secondary to this.

I've lived in the United States and Canada as well as in Asia, Europe and Australia during my short 26 years and I travel and have extensive business dealings internationally. I have yet to meet a single person anywhere in the world who did not subscribe to the ideals that the United States claims to stand for (and that includes everyone from conservative Arabs to leftwingers who make even Roy and Superfly look tame). The US was respected not because of their military might (the military inspires fear not respect - there is a very subtle but key difference there), but rather because of the ideals that they have deployed that military might to protect over the years.

I think the best summary of what the world thinks of America right now comes from my 12 year old cousin who summed it up with the kind of innocence that only a child can possess. She simply said that she always thought America were the good guys but now she's not so sure. That's pretty much what the world thinks right now. It's like a kid who just found out that Santa Claus doesn't exist. The world has aspired to the American ideal for so long that they feel very let down when they see the USA themselves abandoning their absolute principles merely for short term gains. Imposing the "American Way" through military might will simply serve to alienate them further.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:03 am

Not the way I see it. Basically everyone agrees with the general idea of a 'war on terrorism', i.e. that terrorism needs to be eradicated. However, in Bush's, and apparently also your view, that is not enough. The rest of the world also needs to agree with the way in which the war is fought. For instance: Belgium did not agree attacking Iraq was the best way, or a good way at all, to fight terror. And what did we get for this differing opinion, without being agaist the WOT? Just take a long hard look...

I know what you're saying, but the rest of the world did not have to experience 9/11. I think pre-9/11, the US would've probably looked further into the rest of the world to see their ideas of fighting terrorism. But after an event so horrible, it just gets to the point where you don't care what other people think, you do what you think is right for yourself. And that's exactly what Bush has done as President of the United States.

I was quite obviously making a comparison to the Iraq crisis. I thought that was quite clear, with subtle hints like "state X, which they've been in trouble with for years", and "a vague presentation at the UN showing their so-called 'evidence'",... Please try again, with that in mind.

If you were comparing it to the Iraq War, then it's not a good or necessary comparision. The way you worded it, you just replaced "America" with "France and Germany".

Here's what you said:

Let's make his situation a bit more concrete. Say France and Germany are attacked by a new terrorist network. After a while both countries accuse state X, which they've been in trouble with for years, of being behind the attacks, or having ties to the network. They want to go to war with this country. The US, meanwhile, like most other countries, do not find any connection between country X and the terror group. They demand proof from France and Germany. France and Germany give a vague presentation at the UN showing their so-called 'evidence', which is circumstatial and very thin to say the least. The US and the rest of the world obviously are not convinced, and remain opposed. The reaction af Germany and France: You're either with us, or against us

1. America was attacked by terrorist organization from Afganistan, not Iraq
2. America accused Bin Laden, location: Afganistan, not Iraq
3. America DID FIND CONNECTIONS between Bin Laden and 9/11
4. The rest of the world got proof of #3 on that video tape

9/11 probably plays a small role in the war in Iraq, but I think it would've happened without 9/11. Bush is just saying that taking out Saddam is part of the war on terrorism because he was a terrorist.

Conclusion: countries that do not agree, need to be punished.

Taking away aid is taking away aid. Maybe they would feel that as a punishment, but to us, it's just saving money, not punishing.

Both you and me are adults. We are trying to discuss these matters in an adult way, at least I know I am. I refrained from making any condescending or otherwise disrespectful remarks towards your persona, unlike you (see quotes above). These little childish remarks stand in the way of a decent discussion, and are not needed to reinforce your point. So I would very much appreciate it if you refrained from such remarks in the future.

I'm trying to discuss it in an adult way as well. I haven't made any childish remarks. Sometimes I really think your attitude towards the US is childish and stupid, but that's just an opinion, you need to quit saying that those are childish remarks.

LOL! If only I had a dollar for every time you said that to me! And it still doesn't make it any more than the desperate attempts of someone fighting a battle already lost...

If you had a dollar for every time I've said that, you'd have what, 3 or so dollars? Big deal. Also, didn't you just try and lecture me about childish remarks? Did someone say "hypocrite"?  Insane




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:20 am

Taking away aid is taking away aid. Maybe they would feel that as a punishment, but to us, it's just saving money, not punishing.

Bullshit. If you do what Jcs wants, there'd be no doubt that it was "punishment" for DARING to oppose this glorious and wonderful war in Iraq. That's what it would be aimed to do. And he wouldn't be saving money, because under his plan, he'd be increasing aid to places like Poland, the Czech Republic, Columbia and Venezuela. It would be a punatitive "fuck you" move on the part of the U.S. which would say, loud and clear, "If you don't agree with us all the time, prepare to face our wrath."
 
DoorsToManual
Posts: 1453
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:28 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:06 am

Wow, what a cracker of a thread.

I must check the non-av forum more regularly for my daily dose of comedy...
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:20 pm

Not meaning to butt-into this conversation but you've just made tons of children (and 'Nippon' tourists) sad over this...especially over that cartoon mouse with the 2 big ears.

If the period to file for candidacy for Governor of California didn't end, I guarantee you that the guy who dresses up in that mouse outfit in Disneyland/World-whatever would announce his running tomorrow!

As for the relocation of bases, I'm for it. Let Poland get a piece of the pie. Their military could stand to benefit more, as well as their economy. So, Germany is an ally, ok, fine. But 50 years ago we fought a war with them. So Poland has only been an ally for 10 years. Well, 45 years before that they were FORCED to be our enemy by the USSR. And how many wars have we fought against Poland?

Whatever, reduction/reorganization of military bases overseas shouldn't be discarded. Heck, we're pulling out of Saudi Arabia.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:40 pm

Ok, well here goes.

Succession of Alaska from the United States.

Removal of federal management of fish and game resources.

Revamping the military to eliminate as many overseas bases as possible, with those resources relocated to the US proper. Just keep a few key places, Ramstein, Korea for example open, and other key places, Grafonweher on caretaker status so they can except troops and be used as a forward base.

Reform two of the light infantry divisions that where drawn down during Clintons reign.

Equipt the military with enough transport for rapid deployment of those two divisions anywhere in the world.

reemphasize the mission of Fisheries patrol in the EEZ for the USCG. Something that has been neglected since they where transferred to Homeland Security.

Lower the drinking age for military personnel to 18. If you are old enough to take a bullet, you should be able to have a beer.

Since we have these troops coming back from overseas, put them on the border. After all protecting a border should fall under common defense right?

Remove administrative law judges from government enforcement actions. They work for the agency that is prosecuting you, and have no interest in being fair.

Transfer as many functions of the federal government as possible to the states. The government isn't supposed to run the country. They are only supposed to provide a common defense and provide interstate rules.

Enforce federal rules over interstate commerce, and areas that are specifically set aside for federal oversight.....Looking at all these cities that are passing laws banning operations of aircraft below certain altitudes ect. Phoniex is reportedly pretty bad at this.

Finally affirm that all 10 amendments in the bill of rights apply equally to the states as well as the federal government. This has already happened to every part but one.

Force California to rewrite their constitution into something normal. Most state constitutions run maybe a couple of pages. California filled theirs up with stuff that other states and nations leave for laws. This is one of the reasons that state is so screwed up.



Oh forgot one, so I had to edit the post.

Break up the 9th circut court of appeals.

They are too big for the region they are ment to cover.

[Edited 2003-08-10 05:45:17]
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:52 pm

Succession of Alaska from the United States.

After that, you have no say, L-188, since you'd no longer be an American, so the rest of what you say doesn't count.

Lower the drinking age for military personnel to 18. If you are old enough to take a bullet, you should be able to have a beer.

Again, no special privelages simply because you volunteered to get money for college. If the drinking age is 21 for everyone else, it is for the military. Let's not go overboard with our reverence for the armed forces, shall we?

Since we have these troops coming back from overseas, put them on the border. After all protecting a border should fall under common defense right?

Again, arming our border with two nations who have been as good a friends as anyone in the world with the U.S. is one of the dumbest, stupedist things anyone has ever concocted. Stop being so scared that there's a terrorist at every checkpoint.

Transfer as many functions of the federal government as possible to the states.

Great. That way the states can fuck things up just as bad as the Feds have. Marvelous idea.

Enforce federal rules over interstate commerce, and areas that are specifically set aside for federal oversight.....Looking at all these cities that are passing laws banning operations of aircraft below certain altitudes ect. Phoniex is reportedly pretty bad at this.

What kind of consistency is that? You bemoan Fed control of some government functions, then you demand the Feds tell the cities what to do? Right.

Break up the 9th circut court of appeals.

They are too big for the region they are ment to cover.


That's not the reason you want it broken up. Just be man enough to tell us the real reaons, L-188.
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:55 pm

I'm all for evicting Demolition Dick, a.k.a. Mayor Richard M. Daley to France, err... Freedance


Signed
Theodore, the evil conservative bear


Oh I see, you associate hatred of Daley for a Republican vs. Democrat fight. Let me introduce a does of reality....the political party lines in Illinois are blurred. There's just corruption. And Daley fosters it. He had no opponent in his last election, giving the City of Chicago virtually no choice. He shut down Meigs in the dead of night on the Bullshit pretense of security when it is well know that:

a)Aircraft operating from Meigs could do jack shit to any skyscraper, and ORD and MDW should also be shut down under such considerations. Years before 9/11 a friend and I took a 737 in FS98 and timed how long from takeoff at ORD to impact with the Sears Tower. Let me tell you this...NOT ENOUGH TIME FOR THE AIR FORCE TO SCRAMBLE!
b)Years before 9/11 Daley had wanted to build a park at Meigs. He closed it down once before, but it was reopened.
c)Not a park, but a CASINO will end up being built there. Or a poorly maintained parkspace with plenty of drug dealers to add to Chicago's notorious Nation's #1 highest homicide rate.
d)ATC over Chicago has become burdened and hassled with the loss of the Meigs Tower. And Daley markets ORD renewal to limit traffic!? Hypocrite! He simply wants to enact control. And the fact that one of his cronies Beluga-vich or whatever the hell you call him is now in Springfield doesn't help!
e)Parks cost tax money to maintain and don't make any money. An Airport brought in taxable landing fees. And the City of Chicago is suffering from a budget crunch! Who'd a thunkit?  Confused

The man is a dictator. Like his father, a product of Machine Politics. He rules the city like Capone virtually did in the 30's.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:00 pm

Well, 9th circut is the most overturned court in the country and I belive it also has the biggest backlog Alpha. You want to tell me what you think my real reason for that is?

Actually the federal drinking age is 18. It has never been 21. The feds just made all the states change it to 21 or else they would withhold highway funds.

Well it is clear the border patrol is outmanned on the mexican border. More eyes are only going to help the problem.

There are some functions that are clearly in the jurisdiciton of the federal government. I have no problem with doing that. I am however against some of the abuses of the Commerce clause that have occured over the past 25 years though.

By the same token citites and states have their own turf and they don't need to step outside of it.

As far as my number 1 item. Well it hasn't happened yet so I still retain the right to bitch. When number one happens stay the hell out of my countries buisness and I will stay out of yours and all will be ok.......OK?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:44 pm

If Number #1 would happen right now, you might turn into an anti-Bush person, since you know how Bush feels he has the right to interfere in any country he feels like. What a delicious irony that would be!  Big grin
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4806
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: What Changes Would You Like To See In US/state Gov

Mon Aug 11, 2003 12:43 am

NWA742,

I know what you're saying, but the rest of the world did not have to experience 9/11.

No, they've just had to experience years and years of terrorist attacks, maybe not as spectacular as those on 9/11, but deadly all the same. Terrorism was not 'invented' on 9/11, you know. Ask the rest of the world. They've been dealing with it for years.

But after an event so horrible, it just gets to the point where you don't care what other people think, you do what you think is right for yourself. And that's exactly what Bush has done as President of the United States.

That's making emotional decisions rather than rational ones. That might be good when choosing what color you want your car to be, but it's a very bad idea when you're the self-proclaimed leader of the free world. Just look at the result. Anger towards the US, the main breeding ground for terrorism, is higher now than it was before the 'War On Terror' started. All because Bush, as you say yourself, does not care what others think.

If you were comparing it to the Iraq War, then it's not a good or necessary comparision.

Why, because it doesn't fit into your scheme? It's a very good and very necessary comparison: the war was started as part of the 'war on terror', it pissed off the rest of the world and is what got the whole France - Germany - Belgium thing going.

1. America was attacked by terrorist organization from Afganistan, not Iraq
2. America accused Bin Laden, location: Afganistan, not Iraq
3. America DID FIND CONNECTIONS between Bin Laden and 9/11
4. The rest of the world got proof of #3 on that video tape


1. America claimed the terrorists were sponsored and trained by Iraq
2. America accused Saddam of having connections with Al Qaeda. Location: Iraq
3. America DID NOT FIND connections between Saddam and 9/11
4. The rest of the world got no proof of any connection between Saddam and 9/11, just a shady presentation at the UN

So don't come around telling me this comparison is not a good one...

Bush is just saying that taking out Saddam is part of the war on terrorism because he was a terrorist.

Bush LIED to you to get to war. Don't you get that?

Taking away aid is taking away aid. Maybe they would feel that as a punishment, but to us, it's just saving money, not punishing.

That's a joke, right?

I haven't made any childish remarks.

Just take a look at the ones I qouted in my previous reply. They are personal and indeed childish remarks aimed not at my opinion, or the facts I presented, but at me personally.

Also, didn't you just try and lecture me about childish remarks? Did someone say "hypocrite"?

No childish remarks, just an observation. You've said it several times, yet you always come back...

Oh, BTW, you still have not answered the question I asked on how the US would react if France and Germany pulled the 'with us or against us' line in my hypothetical situation...

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