Stretch 8
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Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:57 am

An increasing number of heavy thinkers inside and outside of Washington have pointed out recently that U.S. military commitments in the Persian Gulf, Europe, and Asia are at historic highs. Combined with future potential threats around the world, a large burden exists on the current all-volunteer force.

Most EU and other countries have some sort of compulsory military service. I have a hunch that Bush himself will push for it, but only after (or if) he is safely ensconced for a second term in the White House?

How about it? The A.net majority crowd goes camoflague?
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
jaysit
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:05 am

Excellent idea.

All the a.net armchair generals and Bush lovers (and I don't mean lesbians) can go help out our beleagured (and rapidly dwindling) military in Iraq.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
KROC
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:07 am

Not unless there is NO other choice. I do not want to be on the battlefield and put my life in the hands of someone who is pissed off that they are there and not on their couch. It works during a legitiment war time situation, but being drafted just to go take care of other people will not.
 
777236ER
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:44 am

Most EU and other countries have some sort of compulsory military service

???????

It seems a little bit stupid stopping future doctors, engineers, politicians, artists etc from doing their degree or working just because the US pisses someone off 5000 miles away.
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mt99
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:50 am

"Most EU and other countries have some sort of compulsory military service"

True.. but they dont get into half as much trouble as the US.. Look at switzerland... War? never! Huge army? You bet!
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jaysit
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:04 am

"I do not want to be on the battlefield and put my life in the hands of someone who is pissed off that they are there and not on their couch."

Of course.
Its so much easier waving the flag here while hitting the remote.
I am sure that the poor guys serving in Iraq who are being picked off like ducks in a pond are really thrilled to be there and not on their couch.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
KROC
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:08 am

It seems a little bit stupid stopping future doctors, engineers, politicians, artists etc from doing their degree or working just because the US pisses someone off 5000 miles away.

True.. but they dont get into half as much trouble as the US

Let's not forget that the U.S.' help/involvement is ASKED FOR much of the time, either by a certain country or by the U.N. The U.S. does not just send off its Soldeirs, Sailors, Marines and Airmen off to foreign lands because a country is pissed at us.  Insane

 
777236ER
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:12 am

Yeah that's fair enough, but if it forces your country to get every single 18 year old, no matter how much potential they have as a doctor, scientist, whatever, to suit up and go fight overseas, why not say no?! Things are getting desperate if you need every teenager in the army.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
jaysit
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:17 am

"Let's not forget that the U.S.' help/involvement is ASKED FOR much of the time, either by a certain country or by the U.N."

True. Well, sometimes.
But given the fact that we have hundreds of thousands of military personnel in the Middle East alone, with demands for more soldiers in the works, how are we going to sustain this continuing protection of our oil...uhh...vital interests?

The solution: track down the Rah rah rah folks from those FBI file pictures of pro-war rallies, put em in a uniform, and fly them on the first C-5A to Baghdad.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
KROC
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:41 am

Yeah that's fair enough, but if it forces your country to get every single 18 year old, no matter how much potential they have as a doctor, scientist, whatever, to suit up and go fight overseas, why not say no?! Things are getting desperate if you need every teenager in the army.

777236ER. Please come correct with an argument. Nothing is forcing every single 18 year old into military service. The U.S. does NOT need every single teenage in the military. Where, or how you came upon that gem is beyond me. Oh, and for the record, the military has doctors, scientists and whatever as well.

True. Well, sometimes.
But given the fact that we have hundreds of thousands of military personnel in the Middle East alone, with demands for more soldiers in the works, how are we going to sustain this continuing protection of our oil...uhh...vital interests?

The solution: track down the Rah rah rah folks from those FBI file pictures of pro-war rallies, put em in a uniform, and fly them on the first C-5A to Baghdad.


Jaysit, you do make good arguments, well accept for the oil bit, as even chronic Bush/GOP hater Alpha 1 agrees its not all about oil but I digress. The current situation in Iraq is called a conflict, which the military prepares for and is prepared for. Personel wise, equipment wise and such (oh, and the U.S. tropps are not "rapidly dwindling" down over there). It's obvious you have never served, because of your lack of actual military planning facts. I served while Mr. Clinton was drastically reducing our military, and no I'm not bashing him, just stating a fact. Under Bill, we were asked to do more and more with less and less. Bush's use of the military is nothing new to any President (former) of the U.S. The only break I give Bush is the fact he has increased pay raises much more than Bill was, and he is increasing again the size of the military. And while that might not sit well with you thinking its just so we can go more countries, its actually just so we can have the appropriate number of military personal to do their job....in war or peace time.

Of course.
Its so much easier waving the flag here while hitting the remote.
I am sure that the poor guys serving in Iraq who are being picked off like ducks in a pond are really thrilled to be there and not on their couch.


Sorry, but "those guys" volunteered to serve, and they knew what they were getting into. And I would suspect for the most part, that for these men and women, that there are worse ways than dying for your country, no matter what so civilian thinks about the reasons they are over their for.

The solution: track down the Rah rah rah folks from those FBI file pictures of pro-war rallies, put em in a uniform, and fly them on the first C-5A to Baghdad.

Yeah, that wouild be easy right? Not like maybe some of these haven't actually already served their country.
 
777236ER
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:45 am

Nothing is forcing every single 18 year old into military service

It would if it restarted the draft though - which is the point of this thread.
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Stretch 8
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:16 am

A spirited debate, as I expected on this topic. Imagine the same debate on an obstacle course in basic training . . . with a leather-necked drill instructor screaming at you.

Does the male side of the "Britney-Pepsi Generation" need a wake-up call?
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
777236ER
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:21 am

Does the male side of the "Britney-Pepsi Generation" need a wake-up call?

Woah woah woah, a draft only for guys? Probably illegal, and tell me why girls shouldn't be drafted?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
GDB
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:24 am

The issues behind this are touched on here;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1034488,00.html

So, 500,000 troops needed in Iraq, but 140,000 US troops there.
They must be over-extended, you have US troops using captured AK-47s as AFV crews are issued with a only a couple of M-16s, but also pistols, Many AFV crews are having to do infantry work, so they need more than a pistol, hence the AK-47s.
Talking of AFVs, seen those trucks carrying a large squad of troops, very vunerable in a soft skin vehicle, it seems there is nothing between a Bradley (often inappropriate) and a Humvee, at least in the US Army, the USMC have wheeled armoured vehicles I think.
The British Army had this problem in Northern Ireland 30 years ago, but they pulled a load of Saracen armoured vehicles out of storage. Now they are using Saxons in Iraq.
All this points to a massive underestimation of the likely aftermath of war in Iraq, attacks started out as former regime diehards loosing off with AKs and RPGs, now attacks are much more sophisticated, pointing to an influx of terrorists into the chaos of Iraq as it's a good way to hit the US.
You have policy run by a bunch of think tank vets, not combat vets (Bush, Cheney and the rest managed NOT to go to Vietnam funnily enough), hearing what they wanted to hear from a few unrepresentative Iraqi exiles.
Unless you want the situation in Iraq to get worse, a draft may be needed, if only to release regular troops from other duties allowing reinforcement of Iraq by them.
Of course the US could ask others to help, only they've pissed off a lot of nations that usually would provide decent numbers of forces, anyway, why put their troops under a command that seems not to be too good at low-intensity, counter-insurgency operations.
A few token troops from some small nations won't cut it, from what we are seeing the Bush team are starting to realize this, Iraqi oil won't pay for all the reconstruction either, even without further sabotage, so it is going to be tax $
Sad for the poor Iraqi people, if it comes to Bush being re-elected or saving them, well what do you think will be the choice?
But I agree, those who really got off on this war (you know who you are) could use an attitude overhaul by being drafted.

 
9A-CRO
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:25 am

Here in Croatia we unfortunately have compulsory military service. As for USofA I do not really care, but forcing people
to go to army is actually a form of slavery, leftover from past.
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
bobrayner
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:33 am

Does the male side of the "Britney-Pepsi Generation" need a wake-up call?

So girls don't have a role to play in your military-political plan?  Wink/being sarcastic

Two different solutions to the shortage:
1. Try not to annoy so many other countries, or intervene with force before giving diplomacy a fair try; then you'd need less troops on the ground;
2. Try to play nicely with allies, and they would be more willing to contribute towards international commitments.
Cunning linguist
 
jaysit
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:39 am

"And I would suspect for the most part, that for these men and women, that there are worse ways than dying for your country, no matter what so civilian thinks about the reasons they are over their for."

Kroc --- but thats just the crux of the matter. Are those young men who signed up for the military in a show of patriotism (or because they really had no other choice) REALLY dying for the glory of the red/white & Blue? Or are they dying because we're spending our human capital to keep rich Saudi Sheikhs fat and happy on their gold plated commodes even as their own people despise them? In the end it all seems like a farce.

Unfortunately, having a mandatory draft can't address the failures of foreign policy initiatives.

"Under Bill, we were asked to do more and more with less and less."

A philosophy that Bill Cohen was for based on research by the RAND foundation as well as the Pentagon policy wonks. And one that is currently seconded by Rummie. It appears that Bill/Bill/Rand/Pentagon thought that the US would be going in for quick surgical strikes like Ripley in Aliens II with super-duper techno gizmos - and win. Alas, we are having a real life version of Aliens being played out in Iraq.

Getting back to the thread, I think that one year of military training might instill a great deal of citizenship and discipline into our culture, but on a practical level it would be much too expensive and inconvenient to carry out. And think of all the lawsuits. Thats a can of worms that no one wants to open.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
777236ER
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:45 am

I think that one year of military training might instill a great deal of citizenship and discipline into our culture

What's 'citizenship'? Promotion of love of Big Brother......uh.......the US?

And what do you mean by disicpline? Is brainwashing teenagers to obey orders from higher ranking officials really the way to ensure future generations are free-thinkers?
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KROC
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:57 am

I think that one year of military training might instill a great deal of citizenship and discipline into our culture

I'm short on time, but I had to comment on the above line, as 777236ER is absolutely clueless and is getting closer to making Indianguy have credibility.

Bro, military service is great for building love of country and self, and can be a good tool to instill discipline into today's youth. It has nothing to do with brainwashing. Its obvious you have never served either, but would rather criticise what you know nothing about.

Oh and chief, if you have a job and a boss.....you follow orders too. Horrendous "example".
 
777236ER
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:04 am

777236ER is absolutely clueless and is getting closer to making Indianguy have credibility.

Harsh language, don't you think? Goes against one of the rules you're meant to be inforcing.

Bro, military service is great for building love of country and self, and can be a good tool to instill discipline into today's youth

Shouldn't PARENTS instill values of patriotism and discipline in children? Blanket military service won't solve problems that are caused by breakdown of families in the US (and the UK).

Its obvious you have never served either, but would rather criticise what you know nothing about.

Isn't the primary mission of military training to train people how to kill?
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bobrayner
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:06 am

Instilling discipline in them is just a fringe benefit of sending non-volunteers to some foreign country to be sniped at, yes?

You'd get a lot better value for money with a big recruitment drive and fatter payroll. A huge intake of indifferent/unwilling Britney-Pepsiites is not going to make a good peacekeeping and/or fighting force overnight.
Cunning linguist
 
mt99
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:13 am

"Oh and chief, if you have a job and a boss.....you follow orders too. Horrendous "example". "

Yes.. but you can quit at any time. You are not forced to be there. Unless its slavery.
Step into my office, baby
 
jaysit
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:15 am

"And what do you mean by disicpline? Is brainwashing teenagers to obey orders from higher ranking officials really the way to ensure future generations are free-thinkers?"

Thats a good point. But we did have a mandatory draft in WWII and Vietnam, and we haven't had a problem churning out generations of free thinkers. Many of whom who did actually serve in combat. Furthermore, I think that it would do much to erode the phony patriotism that we have to endure today in the United States and would also serve to culturally refresh our military institutions (I am sure that many will disagree with this proposition). That having been said, its impractical for a nation of 280 million people with very diverse views on the role of the military in this country.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
aloges
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:33 am

Don't get me started... If you guys really want to fuck up your armed forces and give 18 or so year old males one hell of an unfair treatment, restart the draft. I'm freaking mad at the German politicians who are in favour of the draft, mostly because nobody fucking cares whether it's unfair, anachronistic or a different form of slavery.

Oh, and if you ever get to hear the name "Franz Müntefering", he's the only guy in this world i really want to kick in the butt. He said something like "My heart is so set on the draft...!" (correct term?) GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK!

And yes, I'm currently, at this moment, a conscript doing "civilian service", which basically means saving our rotten social system from collapsing for ridiculous pay; although even those 8 € per day (round about) are too much for some...  Pissed
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goingboeing
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:54 am

Yeah that's fair enough, but if it forces your country to get every single 18 year old, no matter how much potential they have as a doctor, scientist, whatever, to suit up and go fight overseas, why not say no?! Things are getting desperate if you need every teenager in the army.

The USA sent a lot of future doctor's, scientists, etc. over to Europe and the Pacific during WWII, and they sent a lot over to a little place called "Vietnam" back in the 60's and 70's. Not many of the really wanted to be there. But I think that too many of these 16-20 year old "patriots" who are gung ho for kicking that Iraqi ass might have a change of heart when THEIR number is pulled in the draft lottery. And IMHO, the draft WILL be coming back to support our "peace" efforts in the middle east.
 
jcs17
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:54 am

And yes, I'm currently, at this moment, a conscript doing "civilian service", which basically means saving our rotten social system from collapsing for ridiculous pay; although even those 8 € per day (round about) are too much for some...

Nothing better having to work off the economic failures of socialism, eh?

That having been said, its impractical for a nation of 280 million people with very diverse views on the role of the military in this country.

Jaysit, actually you and your military-loathing leftists are in a very small minority. Despite what you think, the majority of Democrats and Republicans respect our military men and women and see them as defenders of freedom--not "nuts" as you probably think of them as.

As for restoring a draft, well, I dont think its quite necessary right now, but I am in favor of compulsory military service for all males and females following high school graduation. I dont know how it would be done, but it ought to encompass just going to boot camp and training as a soldier. Lasting not much longer than 2 to 3 months--with options for further military service for scholarships. We are seeing American high schools turning out kids with the disicpline of a fat guy at an all-you-can-eat buffet. There is nothing wrong with teaching kids respect, discipline, and self-esteem as the military does.

America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
jaysit
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:20 am

"Jaysit, actually you and your military-loathing leftists are in a very small minority. Despite what you think, the majority of Democrats and Republicans respect our military men and women and see them as defenders of freedom--not "nuts" as you probably think of them as."

The Oracle speaks again. Where have I indicated that I loathe the military? Having done my four years in ROTC and having done my time for Uncle Sam, I hardly qualify as a military loather. As a matter of fact, I can spot the usual cabal of right wing pro-military cowards like a certain suburban Dallas teen (and a certain obnoxious Texas Congressman) through the maze that is the internet. So give your #$%#$ a rest.

"As for restoring a draft, well, I dont think its quite necessary right now"

Yeah. So that your lazy ass can keep typing garbage on the computer as others less fortunate than you get their ass blown to bits by our thuggish so-called allies.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
aloges
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am

"Nothing better having to work off the economic failures of socialism, eh?"

Smarty, this has to do with a lot more things than socialism. It's not like rebuilding the former GDR takes everything out of Germany. We still have the draft here mostly because some stubbornly conservative politicians (that kind that always says "It's always been that way, so we have to keep it!") think it's good, while they don't realise that the German armed forces can't even deploy their conscripts properly - all they do is getting their basic training, and then it's sitting around and "a little training" most of the time, also known as "musket brushing". At its best, they get to guard American barracks (oh, wow) and shoot each other while doing it because they're ordered to patrol with their guns loaded and unlocked.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
jhooper
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:13 am

In my view, mandatory military service goes against the principle of freedom, which supposedly people are in the service to defend in the first place.

But since my opinion is irrelavent, if it was determined that restarting the draft is really necessary to protect our way of life (i.e. WWIII), then you can bet we would have one. But for the time being, we have an all volunteer force and the best military in the world, so I don't see that happening any time soon.

By the way, for the sake of argument, do you think that the ban on drug users, gays, etc., would go out the window if we really needed the bodies to go to war?
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
KROC
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:17 am

Harsh language, don't you think? Goes against one of the rules you're meant to be inforcing.

What was harsh about it? The truthfulness of it? I mean this coming from someone who cannot go more than 3 posts without an F-bomb is crying about rules.

Shouldn't PARENTS instill values of patriotism and discipline in children? Blanket military service won't solve problems that are caused by breakdown of families in the US (and the UK).

Yes, parents should, BUT military service provides essential discipline as well. You get two different concepts. And not for nothing, but parental discipline these days is not what it used to be.

Isn't the primary mission of military training to train people how to kill?

Uhm No. The primary mission is to protect and defend. Why don't you go serve for awhile, then come back and try this discussion.

Yes.. but you can quit at any time. You are not forced to be there. Unless its slavery.

Not for nothing, but some are throwing around 'slavery' a bit too freely. Being drafted, which encompasses clothing and food, money for clothing, base pay, special pay, free medical, dental, CHEAP life insurance etc is hardly slavery.

Thats a good point. But we did have a mandatory draft in WWII and Vietnam, and we haven't had a problem churning out generations of free thinkers. Many of whom who did actually serve in combat. Furthermore, I think that it would do much to erode the phony patriotism that we have to endure today in the United States and would also serve to culturally refresh our military institutions (I am sure that many will disagree with this proposition). That having been said, its impractical for a nation of 280 million people with very diverse views on the role of the military in this country.

You make some good points, except for your liking of the "brainwashing" comparison which is rediculous. Anyway, the mandatory drafts in WWII and such are different than a peacetime draft. Different mindset and such. I totally agree about the phony patriotism part. Nothing chaps my ass more than fake ass 'patriots'. Sad how most Americans are Patriotic on Memorial Day, July 4th, maybe Veterans Day, and whenever Something bad happens to America (911, etc). My time in the service helped me understand the signifigance of the flag, patriotism, love of country etc. I respect all countries (well maybe not France  Big grin ) but I am an American, and proud to be one...every day of the year.

Jaysit, actually you and your military-loathing leftists are in a very small minority.

While I pretty much disagree with Jaysit on most things, I do not feel he is a military loather. He may not agree with the job they are doing, but he realizes that they are just doing their job as they are told. Just my opinion on it though. I could be way off base.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:33 am

As with many other things, I can see going both ways. I don't necessarily want a draft, because the volunteer forces have served the U.S. well. You have people who chose to be there, and are motivated to do well, some for love of country, some to learn a skill, some to get money for college. I'd rather have people who want to be there, than someone who didn't exactly envision a life in the military.

And, any comment about our current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania aside, it's obvious that the military, with committments in two continuing conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, plus deployments elsewhere, have stretched the ranks thin, and there's not much to replace those soldiers still fighting in war zones overseas, who should, after a reasonable time, expect to be rotated out. So necessity may warrent a draft.

The U.S. has been in a draw-down mode, beginning after the First Gulf War, under President Bush the elder, and it continued through the Clinton Administration, and, had 9/11 not graced us, would probably have continued somewhat under this President Bush. But if the U.S. is to continue in this long war on terror, it needs to do either 1. Greatly increase the number of troops and equipment it can deploy to meet these threats, or needs to 2. mend fences with it's erstwhile allies whom the did so much to alienate before Iraq, so some pressure can be relieved from American forces.

Either way, more forces are needed if we are to see more conflicts in the future, under the umbrella of the war on terror, not to mention any other conflicts that might arise.
 
Superfly
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:46 am

My earlier post was deleted but that's OK. I may have hurt someone's feelings but my point has been made by a few members above.

Here is an interesting story about a Congressman that SERVED in War (Vietnam) that suggested restarting the draft.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/12/29/mandatory.military/

http://www.uspolicy.be/Issues/Terrorism/rangel.123102.htm

Bring back the Concorde
 
jaysit
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:09 am

Service in the military does not necessarily create armies of robotrons as some would have us believe.

Case in point: The ex-legal counsel at the Human Rights Campaign was a straight female military officer (West Point Grad.) and member of the JAG Corps. while serving several years in the Pentagon. As far as free and imaginative legal thinkers go, she is one of the best, and has done yeoman's work in addressing the pitfalls and unfairness of "Don't Ask; Don't tell" as a civilian attorney. If this law ultimately falls, she and her ex-military compatriots will be responsible for it.

John Kerry served in the military and he is hardly a robot who has been brainwashed.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:24 am

I won't even bother commenting on Charlie Rangel's proposal other than to say that I had a great deal of respect for him and I was very disappointed to see that he is playing racial politics with our national defense policy.

It's interesting that people compare the draft idea to the Swiss military, but I think that's a blatantly unfair comparision. The Swiss military cannot and probably never will be used for anything other than primarily national defense purposes.

Now, national defense is something we can all agree on. A lot of young Swiss men grumble and complain about having to take the time to complete their compulsory service, but it seems to me that their complaints center more around it being a drag than about it being a policy issue.

Our military has evolved into a force which serves as more than a national defense tool. The Armed Forces are a foreign policy instrument, used to promote and protect democracy (ostensibly, at least) and the political and economic interests of ourselves and our allies. We are not a neutral nation, we are not an isolationist nation. We have certain things we believe in, and we use our military to promote and protect those things when necessary.

We saw the can of worms that got opened up with the draft during the Vietnam War. Not everybody in America believes in the policy of engagement and intervention that our government, be it in the hands of the Republicans, or the Democrats, pursues. So to force them to take up arms for a policy they don't believe in or that is so politically charged, would essentially amount to limitation of freedom of expression, which of course, is unconstitutional.

Now, don't get me wrong. I support engagement and, when absolutely necessary, intervention. But I don't support forcing people to apply those principles to their own lives by fighting for something that they don't believe in. The idea of state above individual sounds strangely fascist to me.

You don't see Swiss troops marching around with the Yanks and Brits in Iraq or Afghanistan, now do you? When that happens, and the Swiss people are mostly okay with it, the comparison with Switzerland will be a valid one.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:35 am

And, any comment about our current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania aside, it's obvious that the military, with committments in two continuing conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, plus deployments elsewhere, have stretched the ranks thin, and there's not much to replace those soldiers still fighting in war zones overseas, who should, after a reasonable time, expect to be rotated out. So necessity may warrent a draft.

First off Alpha 1. We can blame the prior occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. for the current state of the military. Again, at least Bush is improving pay and increasing size of the forces again, which is needed to defend AND protect as much as anything. Either way, I'm not really trying to rag on Billy here. Also, the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan (especially the latter) are frar from major conflicts. The military is more than capable of handling these committments right now. Also, ranks are not stretched thin. Between Active duty, Guard and Reserves, the majority of our forces are home. Also, the troops in Iraq are on rotation and do not get assigned there, then just stay for the duration. I'll try not to rag those that have not served, as you do not understand first hand how it works, but perhaps you should save your 'feelings' on how things works until you know. As for supplies, and soldiers using AK's and such. Not for nothing, but in combat, there is not an infinate supply of ammo and weapons readily available. Being resupplied and such also doesn't happen at the twinkle of Samantha Stevens nose. Whoever thinks we are going to run out of M-16's and bulletts...I have some prime land I would love to sell you.

The U.S. has been in a draw-down mode, beginning after the First Gulf War, under President Bush the elder, and it continued through the Clinton Administration, and, had 9/11 not graced us, would probably have continued somewhat under this President Bush. But if the U.S. is to continue in this long war on terror, it needs to do either 1. Greatly increase the number of troops and equipment it can deploy to meet these threats, or needs to 2. mend fences with it's erstwhile allies whom the did so much to alienate before Iraq, so some pressure can be relieved from American forces.

Bush would not have continued downsizing the military. He was going to build it back up some. Perhaps not as much as is needed now, but he was actually a friend of the military. but like I said, forces are being built up again.

My earlier post was deleted but that's OK. I may have hurt someone's feelings but my point has been made by a few members above.

You didn't hurt anyone's feelings, but its amazing how others made your point without directly flaming another user.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:16 am

DeltaSFO:
I won't even bother commenting on Charlie Rangel's proposal other than to say that I had a great deal of respect for him and I was very disappointed to see that he is playing racial politics with our national defense policy.

Racial politics didn't start with Congressman Rangel. The U.S. Armed Forces were segregated until President Truman integrated the military. He paid a huge price for that among Southern White voters.
Before you and I were born, a disproportionate amount of Black's was drafted in to the Vietnam War than Whites. That’s how things were up until the 1960s. Charles Rangel was one of them and lucky enough to survive that awful war.

If everyone was drafted, our Government would be less likely to send troops abroad to fight in wars.
How many execs at Halliburton had children on the front lines in Iraq this year?



Bring back the Concorde
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:25 am

'fly...

I never said they did start with him. Segregation in the military was awful. Forcing anybody into the Vietnam War, regardless of the color of their skin, was awful.

It's 2003 now. Our military is a volunteer force. Nobody is forced in. Claiming that this war was somehow less just because the military today has a disproportionately high number of blacks, Latinos, poor folks, or Golden Retrievers is pure nonsense. Nobody is forced in.

The military is a tool of social advancement, and it has allowed a lot of less fortunate Americans a chance to serve Uncle Sam and get job skills and a college education in return. Charlie Rangel is playing racial politics and he's playing the tired old class/race warfare politics that the Democrats have got down to a science.

There is a list somewhere of all of the members of Congress that have children in the military and voted for the Iraq resolution. Lots of Republicans in there, and I'll tell you what, their kids aren't all flying desks at the Pentagon.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
Superfly
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:29 am

DeltaSFO:
Charlie Rangel isn't playing any racial politics, he is speaking out the concerns of people in his district.

Bring back the Concorde
 
jaysit
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:14 pm

"How many execs at Halliburton had children on the front lines in Iraq this year?"

None.

"We can blame the prior occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. for the current state of the military. Again, at least Bush is improving pay and increasing size of the forces again, which is needed to defend AND protect as much as anything"

Bush raised military pay by $1 billion a year for five years on top of the $76 billion increase approved by Congress and signed by President Clinton in 2000. Interestingly enough, Rummy wasn't exactly keen on increasing the military budget in 2001 or increasing the size of the military. In any case, most of the new additions to the military come as a result of past attritions.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:40 pm

What was harsh about it? The truthfulness of it? I mean this coming from someone who cannot go more than 3 posts without an F-bomb is crying about rules

Swearing's against the rules? You do it just as much as me, KROC. You're a moderator - if you use harsh language the mods can hardly expect non-av to get better.

Yes, parents should, BUT military service provides essential discipline as well. You get two different concepts. And not for nothing, but parental discipline these days is not what it used to be.

Military service can't make up for the destruction of the family. Surely it's more important to promote family values rather than forcing everyone into the military?

Uhm No. The primary mission is to protect and defend. Why don't you go serve for awhile, then come back and try this discussion

Protect and defend how? By shooting people. You can't get away from the fact that army training teaches people how to kill.

eing drafted, which encompasses clothing and food, money for clothing, base pay, special pay, free medical, dental, CHEAP life insurance etc is hardly slavery.

Yet you're not free. That's slavery.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:51 pm

Swearing's against the rules? You do it just as much as me, KROC. You're a moderator - if you use harsh language the mods can hardly expect non-av to get better.

The usage and allowances of curse words has been expressly laid out several times. I actually go back through many of my posts removing such words because I am a moderator. Even still at the height of my "online cursing" it can't shake a stick at your usage. And to be honest, I could care less, but you wanted to start quoting rules, and its funny when people do that, because its all good until it goes against them.....Also, I noticed how you left out how my comparison was "harsh".

Military service can't make up for the destruction of the family. Surely it's more important to promote family values rather than forcing everyone into the military?

Nobody is saying military service is trying to make up for lack of family values. NONE THE LESS, it instills discipline, respect, pride, self-esteem...all things last time I checked....didn't suck.

Protect and defend how? By shooting people. You can't get away from the fact that army training teaches people how to kill.

And how would you protect and defend? I would love if someone was attacking your country, and your military let you get sliced up because you appear to be against the military killing even if it is to protect you. Obviously military training teaches you how to kill, but that is just one part in ALL of the training. The military DOES NOT teach you how to just go out and kill because.....

Yet you're not free. That's slavery.

Thats slavery? Go back a few hundred years and tell that to blacks in the South here in America.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:59 pm

Also, I noticed how you left out how my comparison was "harsh".

What's "harsh" is pretty much subjective...and is probably a battle I wouldn't win against a moderator.

NONE THE LESS, it instills discipline, respect, pride, self-esteem...all things last time I checked....didn't suck.

Discipline, respect, pride etc are all happy by-products of teaching people to be in an army.

I would love if someone was attacking your country, and your military let you get sliced up because you appear to be against the military killing even if it is to protect you

You'd love it, would you KROC? Careful, you're giving Indianguy credibility here  Insane

I'm not against the military killing to protect my country, I didn't even imply that. I'm against teaching every teenager how to kill.

Thats slavery? Go back a few hundred years and tell that to blacks in the South here in America

If you're not free, what are you? Being forced to go into military service means you're not free. , doesn't it?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:01 pm

You'd love it, would you KROC? Careful, you're giving Indianguy credibility here

I'm not against the military killing to protect my country, I didn't even imply that. I'm against teaching every teenager how to kill.


My bad on the first part. At least I can admit it.

Second part...just because someone is taught to use a rifle, does not mean they are taught to kill. There is a HUGE difference. You cannot just "teach" someone to kill. Again, perhaps if yuo had served militarily you would have a better understanding of what you are trying to argue against.

If you're not free, what are you? Being forced to go into military service means you're not free. , doesn't it?


So off the top of my head, South Korea and Israel are practicing slavery...according to your views......

Discipline, respect, pride etc are all happy by-products of teaching people to be in an army.

And? They are qualities that can and do carry over into the civilian world as well.
 
AIR757200
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 8:30 am

RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:47 am

We already have Selective Service here in the U.S. Didn't all of you when you turned 18 sign your Selective Service cards (U.S. Citizens)? I did- I got mine when I was 17 actually- so I thought I would wait until I was 18, then a few months later they sent me a warning (fine and imprisonment)!
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
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RE: Time To Restart The Draft?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:09 pm

I didn't sign a selective service card.

Didn't have too, enlisted instead  Big thumbs up
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