Qb001
Topic Author
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Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:43 am

- Remember 9/11 ?

- I sure do.

- It happened on a Tuesday.

- Yes, exactly.

- It's estimated that up to 10,000 people were killed.

- What do you mean, 10,000? 3,000 is what I hear most often.

- 3,000? That a conservative estimate. Some even mention a death toll of well above 10,000 people.

- Are you crazy or what? Anyway, 3,000 deaths is way enough for me. What an act of terror it was.

- You're right about that. A real terror act.

- But we'll get those Al-Qaida bastards.

- What do you mean, Al-Qaida? That was organized by the CIA.

- WHAT? Get lost. The CIA has nothing to do with that.

- I'm sorry, but some recently declassified documents clearly show that the CIA was an active actor in that horrifying act of terror.

- What the f*** are you taking about?

- The September 11, 1973, CIA backed coup that overthrew the legitimately elected government of Salvador Allende in Chile.

- Oh! That terrorist act...

- Yes, that terrorist act. It's been 30 years this year. Will you remember it?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:50 am

Good point !

Estimates of casualties in the take-over and subsequent Pinoche dictatorship were at 30,000 in a Yomiuri Shimbun article yesterday.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
LH526
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:56 am

Yes, great someone brought up this point.
Especially for me as a half chilean of german origin this Allende / Pinochet coup is a big issue!
Thanks for bringing this to attention.

Mario
LH526
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
UAL747
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:21 am

Come on guys, this topic is purely flamebait. I also recognize the faults of the US in the past, but do we have to devalue the sentiment of 9/11 to prove a point? You're begging for a fight....

UAL747
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
jhooper
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:23 am

People were crying "10,000" people when nobody had a clue. 3000 sounds reasonable considering that there was plenty of time to evacuate thousands of people out of and away from the towers before they collapsed. While there may have been homeless people that nobody was looking for (and thus never accounted for), the number may be higher than what they're saying, but I doubt much higher.

Yes we have installed a number of governments in other countries, Yes we gave Osama bin Laden money; but that doesn't mean there was any kind of conspiracy to attack America on the part of CIA.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:27 am

Erm, Jhooper, you don't really get it, do you? Please re-read the thread starter...
 
charleslp
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:45 am

Come on guys, this topic is purely flamebait. I also recognize the faults of the US in the past, but do we have to devalue the sentiment of 9/11 to prove a point? You're begging for a fight....

...and so is the person who designed this webiste:

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/AmericanStateTerrorism.html
 
777fan
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:04 am

That website is scary! I agree, this is flamebait, especially with the 2 year anniversary of 9/11/01 coming up.

Rgds,

Greg
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:07 am

The timing is certainly bad, but there's nothing wrong with pointing out that state-sponsored terrorism knows no borders.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
cedarjet
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:08 am

I don't think it's flamebait at all. If you want to mourn the deaths of innocent lives on a certain day, I think September 11 is a good place to start. Thursday will be the 30th anniversary.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
777fan
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:10 am

Mourning is fine, but to bring it up in this way, to what seems intentionally to make those that open this thread believe they are reading something that happened 2 years ago will do nothing but spark a flame war.

I am not against reminding everyone what happened on this day 30 years ago, but do it in the correct context!

Rgds,

Greg
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:29 am

No, it's the 30 year anniversary ! Get it ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
jhooper
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:58 am

Erm, Jhooper, you don't really get it, do you? Please re-read the thread starter...

oops; sorry; I guess I didn't read that carefully. I was referring to 9/11/01; Qb001 was referring to 9/11/73.

Look, I wasn't around back then, so I didn't even know about it until I saw Bowling for Columbine.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
UAL747
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 7:31 am

OH MY! I watched that piece of crap movie last night. Listen, I'm very liberal, but Michael Moore is a phuking freak. What a load of propaganda. It's almost as bad as Bush justifying the war in Iraq as a means to rid the world of Weapons of Mass distruction, actually, now that I think about it, I'm more likely to believe the crap Bush feeds the US rather than the bullshit Michael Moore put into that movie.

UAL747

[Edited 2003-09-09 00:32:39]
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
N766UA
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:45 am

Props to UAL747. Well done.
This Website Censors Me
 
racko
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:10 pm

Even though that the way he does the movies is questionable, the fact that Jhooper for example didn't even know of the "other" 9/11 shows that it is important that he does continue to make his movies.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:55 am


Jhooper said:

"Look, I wasn't around back then, so I didn't even know about it until I saw Bowling for Columbine."

Speechless...
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Lan_Fanatic
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:11 am

Well...finally a chilean will speak here.


It is obvious that this is an unforgetable date for us in Chile. But I think it is just too much. I'm 19 years old, I was 5 when Chile returned to democracy so I practically did not notice about living in a military dictatorship. A lot of people died (thankfully nobody in my family) and a lot of rights were violated.And now,30 years later we still have riots in the streets for every anniversary, and you can see those people rioting...they are of my age.

But nobody is innocent.

Nor the military, nor the socialists.

Chile, during Allende's government was in a hole.Social and economic hole.The country was in bankruptcy, with an inflation of a 400%. No food in groceries...absolutely nothing.
And the majority of chileans WANTED a coup d'etat.
Obviously this does not justify a 17-year dictatorship or the murder of so many people. But I would like that people from abroad chilean borders knew the 2 sides of the story. Not just one.


And by the way, 777fan...
BOTH 9/11s, the american and the chilean are important. Not just the american.
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:36 pm

Interesting sidenote - There was another plane crash in the US that happened on September 11, only the year was 1974. That was when the Eastern jet crashed at Charlotte.

LoneStarMike

 
il75
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 7:29 pm

The bloody coup against Salvador Allende, democratic president of Chile, happened 30 years ago.

But you can ask people in Southern Latin America what 9/11 brings for memories and they still will mention that sad day in Chilean history at first.

With all respect for the Americans in this forum and specially for those with dear ones among the victims of that terrible attack two years ago, I must remember that you don't own that date and that it means different things to different people.

As for instance to the Swedish people shocked today by the death of a young and very popular politician - foreign minister Anna Lindh - stabbed by an unknown man yestarday who is still on the run.

regards
erico
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:00 pm

Idiots strike again. I'm waiting for KROC's shaft, which is doubly needed for this thread.
 
KROC
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:06 pm

I'm not even going to insult my intelligence by reading this thread, but if it is needed, here it is......

This thread has apparently earned it...
 
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yyz717
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:09 pm

But you can ask people in Southern Latin America what 9/11 brings for memories and they still will mention that sad day in Chilean history at first.

Ironically, Pinochet brought in conservative economic policies that enabled Chile to grow dramatically. He put Chile on a sound economic platform. Chileans are now in much better shape than Argentines thanks to Pinochet.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
il75
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:52 pm

Yes, Yvz717, you are absolutely right.

And that makes this Chile / Pinochet issue more complicated. Does his successful economical policies (very late as a matter of fact) excuses his crimes?

By the way, I want to state that the heading of this thread could be somehow rather provocative and misleading...

Qb001:

"Remembering another 9/11" or "Remembering and earlier 9/11" had been far more appropriated.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:28 pm

And that makes this Chile / Pinochet issue more complicated. Does his successful economical policies (very late as a matter of fact) excuses his crimes?

It does not excuse his crimes, but you could argue that the collective lot of Chile was vastly improved by Pinochet despite the human rights abuses on a small minority.

Since the overwhelming majority of Chileans benefited (as opposed to being hurt) by Pinochet, I would tend to support him more than oppose him.

But I agree with you, it is complicated.






I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Qb001
Topic Author
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:00 pm

Here we go again, KROC thinking he's funny with his stupid shaft.

And I thought moderators are supposed to be neutral...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
JetService
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:09 pm

Where have all you idots been about these other problems before the WTC attacks? Are you bitter that we mourn our comrades so passionately while you've sat silent for so long? You complain because we mourn our countrymen and not others yet you said nothing until we did? Where the hell were you before? Why did it take us to remember our fallen to get you off your asses to remember yours? I think you do not truly give a damn and it makes you feel bad so now you want to disrupt our geniune respects. You're acting like little babies. Grow up.
"Shaddap you!"
 
KROC
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:12 pm

Well said Jetservice.

Qb001. The Shaft doesn't take sides, and I responded to a request. I personally could care less about your incessant whining in this thread.
 
Qb001
Topic Author
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:17 pm

KROC,

You don't like me? Fine, couldn't care less.

But as a moderator, is it too much asking that you remain neutral and keep your stupid "jokes" to yourself or your buddies?

Why don't you leave me alone?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
KROC
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:45 pm

Ob001. I do not know you, therefore I cannot judge you, which means I have no idea if I do not like you or not, so please, spare me. And it was YOU who addressed me. I responded. Leave you alone? That works both ways chief.
 
Qb001
Topic Author
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:58 pm

I addressed you? Baloney. YOU posted that childish shaft in a thread I started. And as far as I know, I didn't asked for it.

Now I understand what Schoenorama went through...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:04 pm

What's wrong with the SHAFT? It's just a light hearted poke.

Someone has life I-S-S-U-E-S.  Insane

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:14 pm

KROC is an equal opportunity shafter. The only variable is the skin thickness of the shaftees.

Here's a scale for future reference.

------------Thick
-----
------------
-----
------------
-----
------------Moderate
-----
------------
-----
------------
-----
------------WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
"Shaddap you!"
 
JAL777
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:16 pm

Someone has life I-S-S-U-E-S.

Correction: Someone has no-life I-S-S-U-E-S.
 
Qb001
Topic Author
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:22 pm

KROC is an equal opportunity shafter.

I have absolutely no doubt this is true.

And that's exactly the problem.

Members don't have the same background, the same culture, the same vision, the same sensitivity. Therefore, the same "joke" will not be understood the same way by everyone.

Under such circumstances, a heavy dose of judgment, based on a vast culture, is required. A moderator should have those capacities. Otherwise, he/she should at least show some neutrality.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
KROC
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:43 pm

Members don't have the same background, the same culture, the same vision, the same sensitivity. Therefore, the same "joke" will not be understood the same way by everyone.

Much the same way opinions and views cannot be understood the same way by everyone right? Should we BAN all opinions as well?????
 
IHadAPheo
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:56 pm

Everyone with the same thoughts, everyone with same religon, everyone acting exactly the same and following exactly the same daily habits, wearing the exact same clothes, the freedom to do whatever you want just as long as it is exactly what everyone else is doing. But my nation is the evil one?

Now why do the above ideas sound so familar



Pray hard but pray with care For the tears that you are crying now Are just your answered prayers
 
Qb001
Topic Author
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:59 pm

KROC,

There is nothing more "cultural" than humor. What's funny to you might be offending to another. If you don't understand that, right there you have a major problem.

Opinions and views, unlike humor, can be debated left, right, up and down. In fact, this whole site is about debating opinions and views. If you don't understand that, right there you have a second major problem.

Members expect moderators to show a heavy dose of judgment and neutrality. If you don't understand that, right there you have a third major problem.

Maybe you can be an excellent moderator in an American-only forum. I have some reservation about your capacity to moderate an international one.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
KROC
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:02 am

You mean to tell me that humor is not "debatable"? Come on now. If one can debate an opinion, than one can debate wether or not something is funny or not...in their opinion.
 
Qb001
Topic Author
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:11 am

Come on now yourself.

Obviously, you didn't take the time to read the page to which I provided a link in reply 37.

Had you done so, you would have realized that humor is closely linked to one's culture. Humor, such as beauty, in the eye of the beholder.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
777236ER
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:26 am

Had you done so, you would have realized that humor is closely linked to one's culture. Humor, such as beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

This is getting far too confusing for me, let's just agree that the bench mark for humour is mine. If you don't think I'm funny, you don't have a sense of humour. Agreed?

As for the thread, I wonder who if anyone knew about the CIA involvement in the coup in Chile.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
KROC
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:29 am

Your link served what purpose?

You say humor cannot be debated like an opinion or view, but ones opinion or view on humor is no different than their opinion on politics, sexuality, sports, whatever, and therefore is debatable.

Oh, and I cannot believe I let this BLAST go by.....

Maybe you can be an excellent moderator in an American-only forum. I have some reservation about your capacity to moderate an international one.

Well try this. Maybe you can be an excellent poster in a French-Canadian only forum, but I have some reservation about your ability to post, debate, and discuss issues in an international forum.

Scoreboard.
 
JAL777
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:30 am

As for the thread, I wonder who if anyone knew about the CIA involvement in the coup in Chile.

I had read about it before but didn't know much.

It's amazing that all of a sudden everyone seems to remember it so vividly now.  Confused  Big grin
 
IHadAPheo
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:33 am

Saying that humor is cultural is about as enlightening as saying that culture is cultural, Innuendo is cultural, and humor can be funny (speaking of funny, 777236ER has told jokes, I am not impressed)
Pray hard but pray with care For the tears that you are crying now Are just your answered prayers
 
MONARCH
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:36 am

 
MONARCH
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:39 am

 
User avatar
yyz717
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:42 am

Maybe you can be an excellent moderator in an American-only forum. I have some reservation about your capacity to moderate an international one.

Stop the incessant whining QB001. You're thin-skinned & are just upset that the SHAFT was directed at you. Be a man and take it. Don't bring "culture" into the argument....that's just a smokescreen for your hurt feelings.

I wonder who if anyone knew about the CIA involvement in the coup in Chile.

Yes! So the CIA should take its credit for the wonderful economic renaissance that happened under Pinochet. Thanks for reminding us. Chileans are the envy of Latin America now because of Pinochet's economic policies.



[Edited 2003-09-11 17:51:27]
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
777236ER
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:54 am

So the CIA should take its credit for the wonderful economic renaissance that happened under Pinochet. Thanks for reminding us. Chileans are the envy of Latin America now because of Pinochet's economic policies.


Are we talking about the same Pinochet?! His forces executed or made "disappear" 3197 people (more than September 11th). Tens of thousands were tortured, and hundreds of thousands were forced into exile. Pinochet destroyed the constitution, the parliament, and political parties, the trade unions and the fre universities.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Arrow
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:57 am

"Where have all you idots been about these other problems before the WTC attacks? Are you bitter that we mourn our comrades so passionately while you've sat silent for so long? You complain because we mourn our countrymen and not others yet you said nothing until we did? Where the hell were you before? Why did it take us to remember our fallen to get you off your asses to remember yours? I think you do not truly give a damn and it makes you feel bad so now you want to disrupt our geniune respects. You're acting like little babies. Grow up."

This one succinctly put the issue in its right context, and offers tremendous insight into that yawning gulf between the U.S. view of the world, and everyone else's view of the world.

No one argues that 9/11/01 wasn't a cataclysmic event, and that we shouldn't all mourn the victims. And the outpouring of emotion and support from every corner of the globe in the aftermath of the WTC attacks speaks to that. But it has become an obsession, mostly through the overkill of the US media, and it threatens to obliterate any thought or consideration of equally cataclysmic events that have happened in other places at other times. That might rest well with Americans, but it builds resentment and anger with other people -- as you can see from some of the nastier comments on this thread.

I didn't remember that 9/11 was the day of the Allende coup, and I thank Qb001 for reminding me. It, too, should be remembered. And Americans need to recognize that the world is tired of everything being focused on the centre of the universe. To put it in its starkest terms, more people in the world die every day from starvation and preventable disease than were victims of 9/11 -- where are the remembrance ceremonies for them?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
JetService
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RE: Remembering 9/11

Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:04 am

To put it in its starkest terms, more people in the world die every day from starvation and preventable disease than were victims of 9/11

That will never change. Shall we stop mourning everyone forever? Including family members?

-- where are the remembrance ceremonies for them?

Ask yourself that question. Why are you expecting us to do it?
"Shaddap you!"

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