b757300
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Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:09 am

Just in case certain people here don't notice, I took the topic name from the title of the article.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030919-105619-9614r.htm

If he is found guilty, lets hope he gets the penalty that a traitor deserves.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Sun Sep 21, 2003 8:09 am

Islam is the enemy ... We don't want to admit it but its true.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:05 pm

Have you already sentenced him in your mind, B757300, because he's Muslim? And would you be so harsh on him if he were, say a Baptist Minister?

I think I know the answer to that one, you being the fair-minded guy (not) that you are.
 
L-188
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:09 pm

Well, if the charges bear out then he deserves to hang. Last time I checked, treason was a capitol offense, not life in prison.

It will be interesting to see in the court case what led the government to him.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:13 pm

It will be interesting to see in the court case what led the government to him.

Knowing the paranoia within this country right now, and within the military and Administration since 9/11, I'd say his faith.
 
L-188
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:15 pm

Now, Now Now Alpha.

Lets not be paranoid about government conspiracies here.

You aren't Fox Mulder.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Sun Sep 21, 2003 1:38 pm

Government conspiracies? No. Government paranoia? Absolutely.
 
Marco
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:38 am

Government conspiracies? No. Government paranoia? Absolutely

Rather than just spewing emotional rhetoric Alpha 1, do you actually have a solution?

He could be a spy, on the other hand he may not be a spy. Wouldn't you rather have an investigation (ie: Why would an American move to Syria and study Islam for years, sounds a bit odd to me), so you could rest assure that he isn't a terrorist? And no I'm not just saying this because he's a Muslim, not all Muslims are terrorists.
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MD-90
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:56 am

And when's the last time a Baptist pastor was accused of being a spy?

It's a good thing the situation's not reversed, because in a court overseen by an Islamic cleric, in, let's say, Saudi Arabia...do you really think a Christian or *gasp* a Jew would get fair treatment?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:05 am

I don't think a Muslim can get a fair shake in this country right now, MD-90. Under the climate of intolerance that the present Administration has led in creating in this country? Sorry, but I just don't think it's possible.
 
Marco
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:08 am

What's your solution Alpha 1? Let him go without an investigation or anything, just because he's a Muslim?
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:14 am

My solution is for people to stop being so damned paranoid. Even money, nothing comes of this, and it will have been wasted time and will only have cast more suspicion on individuals who didn't deserve it.
 
N79969
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:14 am

If guilty, Capt. Yee is a strange and scary one. I am worried if al-Qaeda was able to recruit a West Point graduate.

Alpha 1,

Your accusation against the Bush Administration on this count is baseless. There is no real evidence to suggest systematic bias against Muslims by the federal government. That nearly 100% of al-Qaeda and its business associates are Muslim is not the government's fault.

 
Alpha 1
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:20 am

Amazing, all of you go from the starting point that he's probably guilty. Proves my point.

And don't make me laugh with your "baseless" claim, N79969. This Administration has built of a climate of distrust, suspicion and hate towards the Islamic community. If that isn't true, then explain all these young Muslim men who are still being held without charge under this "Patriot" Act?
 
jessman
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:54 am

In every situation people start with the idea the they're probably guilty. Heck, we all thought OJ was probably guilty. In fact for better or worse when we hear on the news that the police/authorities took the time to arrest the person and prepare for a trial we think they're probably guilty. If the jury trial exonerates them then we're ok with that for the most part. But I would hope that those in a jury room put away their prejudices prior to finding guilt or innocence and start with the assumption of not guilty. The reason that is so revolutionary is exactly because it is so very much against our normal human response.

And when I hear that a catholic preist is accused of molesting young boys I assume he is guilty as well, even if I don't know him. But the current spring of terrorism flows almost exclusively from radical Islam. As N79969 so rightly put it, this is not the governments fault.
 
Marco
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:11 am

My solution is for people to stop being so damned paranoid. Even money, nothing comes of this, and it will have been wasted time and will only have cast more suspicion on individuals who didn't deserve it.

Then why did the "chaplain", whose job is to provide spiritual counseling for those who need it and nothing else, have some unauthorized documents on him? Does he carry them around for fun? And are you Alpha 1, comfortable with someone like roaming around in your country FREE?
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
b757300
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:28 am

Oh please Alpha1, there isn't a conspiracy inside the government against Muslims. As N79969 said, it isn't Bush's fault that almost all the terrorists we're dealing with are Muslim.

But then again, I can't be correct. I guess that white sheet you think I wear must be blocking my view.

[Edited 2003-09-22 02:35:06]
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:35 am

Oh please Alpha1, there isn't a conspiracy inside the government that is against Muslims.

Mr. Republican, show me where I said conspiracy? A mindset, or a paranoia? Absolutely. There was no real conspiracy when one of your all-time heroes, Joe McCarthy started his witchunts in the 50's, but it triggered a mindset among many that there was a communist behind every door. Same is true in this instance: there's now a built-in, natural suspision, among the government, and among many individuals of anything Arab or anything Muslim. It's partly human nature, but it's also partly the way things have been handled since 9/11.

But then again, I can't be correct. I guess that white sheet you think I wear must be blocking my view.

I don't think it blocks your view, but it certainly warps it to a point where you're so far gone in neoconservatism that you can't see straight anymore.
 
N79969
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:39 am

Alpha 1,

Laugh away. Your allegation is baseless. It seems that you are more intent finding another issue to attack the President more than discussing Capt. Yee.

Don't you think that some Muslims have generated the distrust, suspicion, and hate that now surrounds their community?

If you stop and think about it at all, I think that suspicion surrounding Muslims and Muslim institutions was inevitable given 9/11 and the following 24 months. Excluding 9/11 you have: the Lackawanna 6- U.S. born Muslims involved with al-Qaeda, John Walker Lindh fighting with the Taliban, the grenade attack by a Muslim U.S. solider, and numerous Islamic "charities" acting as probable money launderers for terrorist organizations. Now we have a U.S. Army captain under arrest.

Taken together, I think it is reasonable to have some suspicion of the true feelings of Muslims towards this country. What is extremely unfortunate is that there are certainly some very patriotic American Muslims who are tarred by the actions of their co-religionists.



[Edited 2003-09-22 02:41:38]
 
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yyz717
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:39 am

there's now a built-in, natural suspision, among the government, and among many individuals of anything Arab or anything Muslim.

And so there should be after 9-11. Last time I checked, it was 19 Arab Muslim men that killed those 2800 Americans.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:49 am

Laugh away.

I just looked through the thread, bright boy. I don't recall any laughing by me on this thread. And if you think you have ESP on the matter-you don't.

It seems that you are more intent finding another issue to attack the President more than discussing Capt. Yee.

It seems you and other right leaning nuts are more interested in finding a boogie man at every corner, even where they don't exist.

Taken together, I think it is reasonable to have some suspicion of the true feelings of Muslims towards this country.

ALL Muslims, everywhere? That's exactly what I'm talking about. A healthy concern is fine, but you're backing up exactly what I alluded to-you thing EVERYONE who is Muslim and Arab should be suspected of something. I don't. You start from the premise that they MIGHT be guilty by virtue of their faith. I don't.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:55 am

you thing EVERYONE who is Muslim and Arab should be suspected of something. I don't. You start from the premise that they MIGHT be guilty by virtue of their faith. I don't.

If you think those 19 Arab Muslim men who caused 9-11 were somehow isolated and no one else knew what they were planning, you are very naive. An attack of that magnitude would have required the coordination & support of hundreds of fellow Muslim Arabs in the US. All but the 19 are still alive and likely still in the US.

The sheer scale of that attack I think is reasonable cause for suspicion of all alien Arab Muslim men 18-40 in the US.





I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
N79969
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:00 am

Alpha 1:

"And don't make me laugh with your "baseless" claim, N79969."

Short-term memory loss?

How about not calling people nuts and accusing us of paranoia. Bottom line a man was arrested apparently because he had documents that he did not need.

By your assessment, the FBI and military were just itching to get a Muslim and picked up this officer and threw him in jail, sound about right?

I certainly did not say that every Arab or Muslim is suspect. You are fabricating ideas, imputing them to me and others, and then attempting to claim the moral high ground.

I suppose that as a non law enforcement professional, you know the right of amount of "healthy concern" we should have as a country. I certainly don't know the answer to this question but why don't you enlighten us.

Should the FBI have patted Capt. Yee on the back, shook his hand, and sent him on his way? Should they put a quota on the number of Muslims they arrest in order to avoid exceeding the limits of "healthy concern"?
 
L-188
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:53 am

From what I have gathered from the news today, was that this guy was caught be customs, not the US Military with stuff he wasn't supposed to have, such as plans of the camp facilities, when he was reentering the country.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
MD-90
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:07 pm

I believe that the United States has the most fairest and just body of law in the world. I have faith in the judicial system to provide a trial, a jury if requested, access to counsel, an impartial judge, etc.
 
Marco
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:31 pm

Alpha 1, please try to address the issue, what do you want the government to do with such a man? Set him free because he's a Muslim? He may (or may not) be guilty of the crime, which IMO is pretty serious.
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bobrayner
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:39 pm

I believe that the United States has the most fairest and just body of law in the world. I have faith in the judicial system to provide a trial, a jury if requested, access to counsel, an impartial judge, etc.

Generally, yes.

However - how many of the guantanamo bay inmates have been tried (or even charged with a crime), been given access to a lawyer, &c &c?
Cunning linguist
 
Marco
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:43 pm

However - how many of the guantanamo bay inmates have been tried (or even charged with a crime), been given access to a lawyer, &c &c?

Maybe we should also thank them for 9/11? Give them four wives and a mansion in the process?  Insane

In their own native lands, they would get worse treatment for terrorism, so they should be counting their blessings...
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bobrayner
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:49 pm

Maybe we should also thank them for 9/11? Give them four wives and a mansion in the process?

So... because terrorism is Really Bad, any requirement for evidence / proof / conviction is removed?

Sure, lock them up if they're terrorists. However, their current status is "enemy combatants", which is seemingly the Bush administration's unilateral interpretation of "prisoner of war" without the irksome Geneva Convention requirements.

If some are supposed to be terrorists, then put them on trial; if convicted, punish them as terrorists. Wouldn't that be a reasonable solution?
Cunning linguist
 
Marco
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:52 pm

Sure, lock them up if they're terrorists. However, their current status is "enemy combatants", which is seemingly the Bush administration's unilateral interpretation of "prisoner of war" without the irksome Geneva Convention requirements.

If some are supposed to be terrorists, then put them on trial; if convicted, punish them as terrorists. Wouldn't that be a reasonable solution?


What do you think these men (lots of which aren't even from Afghanistan) were doing with the Taliban in Afghanistan? Playing Monopoly?

Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
bobrayner
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:57 pm

What do you think these men (lots of which aren't even from Afghanistan) were doing with the Taliban in Afghanistan? Playing Monopoly?

I don't know, and neither do you; although we can rule out that they were actually on the planes on 9/11.

Why not hold a trial and see what the evidence is, or what each is supposed to have done wrong? I don't doubt that there were some terrorists in Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean that any person you capture in Afghanistan is a terrorist by default.
Cunning linguist
 
Marco
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:00 pm

There's a pretty high chance that any non-Afghani running around with a regime that supported terrorists IS a terrorist. Also, you're assuming that the US government doesn't have intelligence regarding the prisoners at Guantanamo, and that they're holding them there blindly, which is a big assumption.
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bobrayner
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:13 pm

There's a pretty high chance that any non-Afghani running around with a regime that supported terrorists IS a terrorist.

I'm having difficulty with this point. If a country's government supports X, and a person goes to that country, then they support X too?

As it happens, I spent a little while in another axis of evil country at the start of this year. Suppose the USA had invaded at the time - would I have been a terrorist by default? Should I have been locked up indefinitely without charges, and without any reference to the Geneva Convention?
Cunning linguist
 
B747-437B
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:16 pm

Suppose the USA had invaded at the time - would I have been a terrorist by default? Should I have been locked up indefinitely without charges

No. You are white.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Marco
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RE: Islamic Chaplain Is Charged As Spy

Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:06 pm

I'm having difficulty with this point. If a country's government supports X, and a person goes to that country, then they support X too?

If the country happens to be an improvished, hotbed for extremist activity, then your presence there would either be

1- for terrorism purposes
2-for other dumb purposes

They were carrying arms, fighting for the Taliban, they deserve a fate worse than Guantanamo (ie: send them back to their native countries and see what happens to them).
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