airworthy
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A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:46 am

It looks like Pope John Paul II's health is getting worse and worse, and they may need a new Pope any time now. The innauguration of a new Pope will definately be an event with probably the only thing coming close to it would be the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II in the 1950s.

I wonder what kind of Pope they will try to get in and where they will be from, I think the last few have all been from Europe.
 
mt99
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:57 am

I really hope that John Paul II rest peacefully when the time comes. He will be rembered as a one of the most influential people this last century.

The new Pope will need to feel in some mighty big shoes, and hopefully will continue with the change and renewal John Paul II started in the Catholic Church. Change that will need to happen if the Catholic Church want to remain relevant. I do think however, that the change should be slow but constant.

My prayers are indeed with him and his succesor

Step into my office, baby
 
Stretch 8
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:05 am

Don't count John Paul II out just yet. His body is increasingly frail, but from what I have read, his mind is still very sharp. I agree with the comment above that he is one of the great leaders of the 20th century. His successor could come from Latin America or even Africa. And there is no doubt that someday he will be sainted.
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
Superfly
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:09 am

I hope the best for the Pope.




Did you know that me and Pope John Paul II have the same birthday? (May 18th)
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yyz717
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:21 am

He will be rembered as a one of the most influential people this last century.

Perhaps in Catholic circles. He's meaningless to most Protestants, Jews, etc.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
mt99
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:30 am

"Perhaps in Catholic circles. He's meaningless to most Protestants, Jews, etc. "

True.. But good person is good in any religion, and that should not stop people from dmiring and having respect for someone outside their religion, like Mother Theresa.

BTW, he is credited for being a driving force behind the collapse of communism. (I dont know how true it is or not)
Step into my office, baby
 
bmi330
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:33 am

Next pope will be Heinrich Larsen but who cares we got the queen!
 
mirrodie
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 6:30 am

I too have thought about this overthe years. He is a great person who has influenced many people Catholic or otherwise. (You don't have to bo Catholic to appreciate another's thoughts  Insane)

In fact, I put PJP II right up there with George Carlin... MEANING... I respect them both. They both have a lot of GOOD things to say and say them in COMPLETELY different ways.

Of all the Popes, he has had a love of empathy. And a lot of love towards children of all walks of life. (I say that in lieu of the fact that some smart alec here will probably post about priests and kids  Insane That is not what I am talking about.)

PJP II genuine paid attention to the world's children. Too many times they are put by the wayside.

He's not gone yet but I will lament his departure whence it comes.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
prebennorholm
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:23 am

Do I remember well when telling the following?

John Paul II is of Polish origin.

John Paul II is the first non-Italian (or non-Vatican) Pope ever.

-------------

Yyz717: He's meaningless to most Protestants, Jews, etc.

Not so. They always respected the Pope for his deeds for improving conditions for mankind. Even if they don't recognize him as supreme head of their church.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
JAL777
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:27 am

John Paul II is the first non-Italian (or non-Vatican) Pope ever.

No he's not. He's the first non-Italian in like 400 years but there have been others.

I really hope they get a Pope from South America or Africa this time.
 
bobrayner
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:35 am

He's getting a bit dull in his old age.
We need another Hildebrand, to shake things up a bit  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Cunning linguist
 
bmi330
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:53 am

What good Protestant people like the pope? If you ask me they should make the queen pope dissolve Catholics into good Protestants and that solve sectarianism and the tims can get a real true icon and leader in the queen I mean it is goods religion and the anthem is GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!

Is it relay a surprise he liked kids all prests do dint you no that its in the job description between brainwashing tims to hate Protestants for no good reason and spread terrifying propaganda.
 
N766UA
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 8:04 am

All the pope ever did for me was ride around in a glass car, how is that influential? Sorry guys but he means little to me, though his death would never be a good thing...
This Website Censors Me
 
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yyz717
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 8:28 am

His refusal to budge on ordaining women (sexism), his refusal to apologize for the RC church's treatment of Jews in WW2 (anti-semitism), his coverup & lack of accountability of the vast child abuse scandals in North America (immoral/illegal), and his socially irresponsible positions on birth control, make it VERY diffcult for me to respect this man.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Qb001
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 8:43 am

His refusal to budge on ordaining women (sexism), his refusal to apologize for the RC church's treatment of Jews in WW2 (anti-semitism), his coverup & lack of accountability of the vast child abuse scandals in North America (immoral/illegal), and his socially irresponsible positions on birth control, make it VERY diffcult for me to respect this man.

By and large, I agree. But, anti-semitism was wide spread in the Western world (how many Jews asked for refuge in the USA in the late 30s and early 40s and were denied entry, even though it was known that the massacre had begun?). And, also, JPII did play a significant role in tearing down the communist regimes in Eastern Europe.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
UAL747
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 9:03 am

As a protestant, he means nothing to me. Some people worship this guy like he is a God himself, and I think it's wrong. But in my faith, there is no hierarchy, there is only the Holy Trinity. It was fun to visit the Vatican, but fun is where it ended.

Nice way to get a stab in there about the US huh, Qb001?

UAL747

[Edited 2003-10-03 02:03:59]
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
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Aaron747
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 9:47 am

I, like many Catholics, have mixed feelings about the papacy in general. While I don't agree with many of this pontiff's lifelong positions, his anti-war efforts and criticisms of US policy have been noteworthy.

That said, he's just a man, influential or not.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Qb001
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 9:50 am

Nice way to get a stab in there about the US huh, Qb001?

Canada also refused a lot of Jews refugees at that time.

During the years when the Nazis were in power in Germany (and immediately afterwards), Canadian immigration policy was actively anti-Semitic, with the result that Canada’s record for accepting Jews fleeing the Holocaust is among the worst in the Western world. Canadian policy towards Jewish refugees was summed up in the words of one official: "None is too many".

http://www.web.net/~ccr/antiracrep.htm#II.%20HISTORICAL%20BACKGROUND%20TO%20DISCRIMINATION%20IN

Happy?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
mirrodie
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 10:27 am

There was a reason why I typed:

(I say that in lieu of the fact that some smart alec here will probably post about priests and kids That is not what I am talking about.)


Amazing how I know some behaviors here  Insane incorrigible.

yyz, I agree with you on his positions on ordaining women + birth control. Heck, I am a proud Pro Choice, pro lady priest, pro "let the priests marry" Catholic.

But I recently read the opposite re: Jews in WWII.

IIRC, he also OKed evolution as a belief in that faith.

Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
mt99
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:15 am

"ordaining women (sexism)"

I said before, change of something so big an important should come sloooowly but steadily. As a catholic I'm pro gay marriage, pro women priest ect.. but I would have been very pissed off if all of these issues would have been changed all at once. Changing alll at once would have solved nothing. I hope that they will change eventually.

"OKed evolution as a belief in that faith"

See eventually things change. Copernicus was pardoned (quite late). I belive the JP is more "modern" that many protestant churches.
Step into my office, baby
 
LSTC
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 12:10 pm

I think its inappropriate and short sighted to say the Pope is meaningless to non-Catholics.

Is George Bush meaningless to other world political leaders? Hmmm....bad example.

Is Israel irrelevent to countries who adopt so-called "christian" values? Are blacks irrelevant to whites? Are dogs irrelevant to cats?

I think such statments display a degree of resentment and intolerance. I'm not saying I'm condemning someone for hating a particular religion, just trying to understand the basis for such strong language when it comes to one of the major "meaningful" relgious leaders in the world.

By the way, the church isn't really part of my life so I'm not waving the banner for the Pope, but I wouldn't fool myself to think that political leaders (Catholic and otherwise) ,Protestants and members of other Catholic spin-offs consider the Pope irrelevant. Certainly not the majority anyway.
 
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yyz717
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 12:37 pm

I said before, change of something so big an important should come sloooowly but steadily. As a catholic I'm pro gay marriage, pro women priest ect.. but I would have been very pissed off if all of these issues would have been changed all at once. Changing alll at once would have solved nothing. I hope that they will change eventually.

What about RC women that want to become priests? How long SHOULD they wait? A lifetime? Or give it up altogether?

The Civil Rights progress in the US happened all at once in the 60's......would you have preferred that happen at a slower pace (by the same argument)?

What is your timeframe for "change eventually"?


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ra-85154
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:02 pm

A New Pope?

Well, yes good idea...it is not a question of ' IF' but ' WHEN'

Pope JP II's successor should preferably be a YOUNGER one: sometimes Vatican City seems just like the old Soviet or Chinese government.. Big thumbs up

As to the Pope's successor: I have my opionion about the Pope's ideas on issues like AIDS/condoms etc, but thats another story...we'll see who will be the next Pope, but for now the current one is still alive so.....

rgrds
Martijn




 
L-188
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:11 pm

Pope JP II's successor should preferably be a YOUNGER one

Actually a lot of the popes critics claim that they want an older pope, one that won't have a quarter century to make policy.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ra-85154
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:33 pm

L-188:

I get your point Smile Big thumbs up..but actually the 'younger' I mentioned more referred to the Pope's physical health; he can be old, thats no problem, lots of experience etc...but he should be/stay in good health for his job I think, unlike the current Pope unfortunately
 
L-188
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:56 pm

Well he wasn't that bad off when he was first put in the position.

I wonder how much faster that bullet he took is slowing him down.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
cfalk
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:20 pm

About ordaining women priests, I agree that the Pope is a little too conservative on that score. As a Catholic, I have absolutely no problem with it.

As far as allowing priests to marry - the Catholic Church is caught between a rock and a hard place. The "rock" is the fact that fewer and fewer good people are deciding to devote their life to Goad and their fellow man, making it difficult to have enough priests for all the churches and teaching posts around the world. Already standards for acceptance are such that men who should NEVER have been accepted into the priesthood manage to get in and defile their Church and their victims in gross misconduct.

The "hard place" is the principle that a priest should be entirely devoted to God, and to providing spiritual guidance to people. In return for this devotion, the church will take care of his material needs in terms of food and lodging. If a priest is allowed to marry, he will be distracted from his spiritual duties by his spouse, kids, the mortgage on the house, ensuring his kids education, etc. etc. These are all worldly matters that in some way force him to become selfish and materialistic. E.g. "I have to make enough money for the new car my wife wants - the house needs repairs - should I invest in stocks or bonds." etc. I agree that the priests should not have these materialistic worries, and thus agree with the Pope that the principle of priesthood celibacy and poverty is an important one for the spiritual good of the Church and its followers. This of course should also apply to women priests, should they be accepted.

So the "rock" is a practical limitation, and the "hard place" is a limitation based on principle. Which do you give in to? In the Christian faith (and in most faiths, for that matter), the answer given by scripture is very simple - you cannot allow your principles to be sacrificed in order to take the easy road, simply because the other path is too hard, or that you can't figure a way to get through it.

The problem MIGHT be solved, at least in part, by the acceptance of women priests. Their number would allow the Church to be more selective in the men that they accept, working harder to weed out the deviants. I see no great spiritual value or principle in the Bible that supports continuing to deny women priesthood.

The Pope's position on birth control is a similar situation. The practical problem is AIDS, an alarming birthrate among the poor populations of the world, and the fact that pre-marital sex is now the norm in today's society. On the other hand, the principle to be protected is monogamy and the sanctity of marriage. In my opinion, however, I see no spiritual penalty or biblical ban on the concept of the use of birth control between married couples. So should the pope relax on principle and go down the easy road by condoning birth control (including for unmarried people)? Would condoning birth control ipso facto condone extra-marital sex? Those are difficult questions to which I have no real answer to, and I can understand the Pope's dilemma.

I admire John Paul II's strength of conviction, even if in some cases I think he is in error. I admire his desire to personally give guidance and spiritual comfort to the people of the world, evidenced by the tremendous number of trips he has done even in his frail health. He is a giant of faith and self-sacrifice, unfortunately trapped in an ailing body that can barely move. I will miss him when he leaves this world, and will be glad that God let us have him with us, for a while.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
KROC
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:47 pm

As a Catholic, I have to say the Pope does not mean a whole lot to me. I do not believe in a person who is elected by other humans who then becomes the automatic representitive of God. On top of that, the Vatican itself is as corrupt as any crime syndicate and overall does more harm that good in the world. PJP has overseen the attempted supression of the information about Priests molesting kids, he along with the church have refused to change with the times, and only God knows what other cover ups he has been part of. I have no use for organized religion. Either way, I do not wish the Pope as a man to suffer or anything, and I respect what good he has done/tried to do, but in my book it does not out weigh the negatives.
 
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yyz717
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:09 pm

If a priest is allowed to marry, he will be distracted from his spiritual duties by his spouse, kids, the mortgage on the house, ensuring his kids education, etc. etc. These are all worldly matters that in some way force him to become selfish and materialistic.

Protestant ministers and clergy are allowed to marry, and do not seem to be distracted from their spiritual duties. I'd rather have a minister who was married with kids....someone I could relate to.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
JAL777
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:13 pm

If a priest is allowed to marry, he will be distracted from his spiritual duties by his spouse, kids, the mortgage on the house, ensuring his kids education, etc. etc. These are all worldly matters that in some way force him to become selfish and materialistic.


Let's rephrase that...

If a man is allowed to marry, he will be distracted from his work duties by his spouse, kids, the mortgage on the house, ensuring his kids education, etc. etc. These are all worldly matters that in some way force him to become selfish and materialistic.

So what if priest are selfish and materialistic? They don't take vows of poverty.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: A New Pope?

Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:14 pm

I agree with your statement there, Yyz717, but I take some offense to those who are belittling the man because he's a Catholic, or simply are using this forum to bash Catholicism or religion, as usually happens here.
 
mt99
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RE: A New Pope?

Sat Oct 04, 2003 12:25 am

"Protestant ministers and clergy are allowed to marry, and do not seem to be distracted from their spiritual duties. I'd rather have a minister who was married with kids....someone I could relate to. "

Yes.. but they dont take poverty vows. Most protestant ministers are loaded with $$$.
Step into my office, baby
 
cfalk
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RE: A New Pope?

Sat Oct 04, 2003 12:28 am

So what if priest are selfish and materialistic? They don't take vows of poverty.

Yes they do. Catholic priests do anyway. Vows of Poverty, Chastity, Humility, and I forget what else. Their needs are provided for by the Church, and they get a monthly stipend for miscellaneous expenses, like for going out, or buying toys for himself, like a walkman. In Switzerland, a Benedictine monk I know gets a little under 1,000 Swiss Francs per month - around $600 (in terms of purchasing power, that's more like $400 in the U.S., I guess). He lives at the monastery, teaches at the local catholic school, and was also the priest who performed the wedding for me and my wife, and also the funeral service for my son. He's a wonderful man who has brought me and my family much wisdom and peace, in spite of being unfamiliar with many of our material woes - perhaps even because he is unfamiliar.

Protestant ministers and clergy are allowed to marry, and do not seem to be distracted from their spiritual duties. I'd rather have a minister who was married with kids....someone I could relate to.

That is one of the big differences the Protestants have with the Catholics. Like I said, I don't agree with it out of principle. My wife is protestant, and we go to both Protestant and Catholic churches. My observations of some Protestant priests (not all, of course, but some) is that their spiritual lives have been seconded to their worldly lives - so that they end up treating the priesthood as simply a job, no different from being a lawyer or accountant.

Like I said earlier, I have found a lot of benefit in my talks with a monk. If he was also in a related situation, then what he can teach or advise may also be colored by the same worldly perspective, making his advice little different from what I can get from my father or some other mentor. If you go to a priest, it should be for spiritual advice. If you want worldly advice, go to a shrink.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
mt99
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RE: A New Pope?

Sat Oct 04, 2003 12:42 am

"What is your timeframe for "change eventually"?

That what it is "eventually". The catholic church is knee deep in very ancient tradition. It is that tradition that has kept it going for such a long time. It would be a disrepect to change these things in 3 seconds. Many many members would simply not accept it and place them at odds with the church. Subtle change is the way to go. It got a lot of historial momentum than you just cant change in one go.
Step into my office, baby
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: A New Pope?

Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:09 am


I wonder how much is important the Pope for Christians ? He will die one day or another like every man on earth,and you still sacred him ? There must be no intermidiate between man and God...

kROC,i think you share this with me ?

In Islam we do not have these principals.Every one is the minister and the clergy for himself.
 
JAL777
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RE: A New Pope?

Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:25 am

Yes they do. Catholic priests do anyway.

Catholic PRIESTS do not take vows of poverty. Nuns and brothers do along with a few others. At least mine didn't.

 
KROC
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RE: A New Pope?

Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:27 am

There must be no intermidiate between man and God...

Exactly. No man, elected by other men, can just up and act for God. I hate to break it to some people.
 
mt99
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RE: A New Pope?

Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:39 am

"There must be no intermidiate between man and God... "

The pope is no intermediate. He is there to keep catholisim together, so that there wont be all kind of "diferent " churches like Southern Baptists (if there are Souther Baptist, are there Northern Baptists?) and regular Baptist?

I may be wronng but it seems like if "I" feel like starting a church (kinda like startting my own dry cleaning business) i just open my garage, start preachin fire and brimstone to whomever belives in Darwin, call my self protestant and there you go. (oh dont forget the tax break!)

But if you actually have rules and some overall organization it seems more "real" if you will.

But whatever floats your boat
Step into my office, baby
 
prosa
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RE: A New Pope?

Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:45 am

I wonder how much is important the Pope for Christians ? He will die one day or another like every man on earth,and you still sacred him ? There must be no intermidiate between man and God...
kROC,i think you share this with me ?
In Islam we do not have these principals.Every one is the minister and the clergy for himself.


Only the Roman Catholic Church recognizes the Pope as its spiritual leader. Other Christian denominations, such as Protestant and Eastern Orthodox, may respect the Pope as a eminent authority on religious matters but do not follow his dicates in any way.
Within the Catholic church, the Pope is both the temporal and spiritual leader. He appoints bishops, who are in charge of all churches and most clergy in their local areas. The bishops, in turn, report to the Pope. Some bishops, mainly those in large cities or who serve in important administrative positions in the Vatican, are known as cardinals. While cardinals ordinarily have no more power than ordinary bishops, cardinals under age 80 get to select the new Pope after the existing one dies; without exception for the past few centuries or more, the cardinals select the new Pope from among their own ranks.
Probably the most controversial aspect surrounding popes is the concept of infalliability. This is a relatively recent doctrine, probably no more than 100 years old, and says in essence that when the Pope issues a proclaimation on spiritual matters it is a direct message from God and therefore must be correct. Many Catholics consider this doctrine flawed and do not always respect the Pope's authority without question. The Church's bans on divorce and artificial contraception are among the most controversial positions.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
cfalk
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RE: A New Pope?

Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:39 am

Catholic PRIESTS do not take vows of poverty. Nuns and brothers do along with a few others. At least mine didn't.

I checked. You are partially correct. Religious priests take vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience, while Diocesan priests only take the vows of chastity and obedience.

http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/ooh9899/106.htm

Priests in the Catholic church belong to one of two groups—diocesan or religious. Both types of priests have the same powers, acquired through ordination by a bishop. Their differences lie in their way of life, their type of work, and the church authority to whom they are responsible. Diocesan priests commit their lives to serving the people of a diocese, a church administrative region, and generally work in parishes assigned by the bishop of their diocese. Diocesan priests make promises of celibacy and obedience. Religious priests belong to a religious order, such as the Jesuits, Dominicans, or Franciscans. Religious priests are assigned duties by their superiors in their respective religious orders. Some religious priests specialize in teaching, while others serve as missionaries in foreign countries, where they may live under difficult and primitive conditions. Others live a communal life in monasteries, where they devote their lives to prayer, study, and assigned work. Religious priests take vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.

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