go canada!
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Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:11 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3194432.stm

A bomb attack has left 3 americans dead in the gaza strip. The dead were on a peace and security mission. This is a worrying sign that the conflcit is being widened. The EU have demanded that Yasser Arafat does more than condemm the attack and that he is judged on actiosn not deeds. Until the palestinian authority clamps down on terrorists there can be no peace. Arafat dominates the palestinians. We see now that we are on the verge of seeing a 2nd Palestinian Pm quitting within the space of 6 months because of his insitance of controlling security matters. Clearly he has failed in this and the world must support those palestinian leaders willing to clamp down on the terrorists and start to road to peace.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
777236ER
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:15 am

Until the palestinian authority clamps down on terrorists there can be no peace.

Nope sorry, it's not that one sided. Both sides are to blame.
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go canada!
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:20 am

er, it is not. Until terror is clampded down upon the israelis will be obliged to defend themselves and start military action against the terrorists. It was the terrorists who stated this war. They bombed before the peace process, during the peace process and after the peace process. They bombed before 1948, after 1948, before 1967 and after 1967, before lebanon and after the withdrawl of lebanon, before olso and the PA and after olso and the PA.

7 palestinian states have been offered from balfour to taba in 2000. all have been rejected. These terror groups do not care whether there is a palestinian state in the west bank and gaza or whether there is not. The idelogoy of hamas, jihad, al-aqsa and hezbollah is the destruction of israel and the removal of the jews.

the average palestinian does not want the destruction of the jews, they want to live in peace, however their leader yasser arafat rules like a dictator and has consigned them to misery.

they could have had a state in 2000 if it were not for arafat and the terrorists.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
777236ER
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:23 am

er, it is not

Hands up if you agree with Go Canada! that the situation in the middle east isn't two-sided and is all the fault of Palestinians.
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pacificjourney
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:38 am

The most admirable thng about Israel is the quality of their PR machine. Notice the frame-work of this (and every other) debate on the whole issue.

The occupiers are painted as the good-guys and those who are occupied are the "terrorists". If this were France/Russia/Holland etc Circa WW2 and some resistance fighters had killed some Swedish industrialists who had been selling Nazis steel then this would be hailed as a blow against facism and the road to liberation. You could repeat the same analogy in Soviet occupied Afghanistan, Japan in China or Korea and ... no doubt we can think of others.

I believe it is often stated on here that 'shit happens' in war. Let's stop fooling ourselves that the US is objective in the I/P conflict and similarly stop being surprised that some of the shit should fall on them. Don't supply endless weapons and monetary support to an oppressive regime and expect no trouble !
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go canada!
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:53 am

i am not saying that ivs p isnt two sided, for godness sake im an historian on this issue, what i am saying is that the terror attacks are one sided , there is a difference.

israel is an occypier, however this is not the reason for these terror attacks, these attacks occured before and after the occupation and if there was a palestinian state tomorrow these attacks will still continue simply because of the palestinian leaderships reluctant to clamp down on terrorists.

its simple, israel offered a palestinian state last in 2000, arafat said no and didnt even want to discuss and negiotate.

i would suggest that this sorry state of affairs is down to arafat, if he had said yes baruk wouldnt have fallen from power. sharon would never be pm if arafat had clamped down on terror like he promised.

for goodness sake this man was offered east jersualem, 95-98% of the west bank, the gaza strip plus land swaps so that areas of high jewishj settlement became part of israel in exchange for other parts of land to ensure the palestinians didnt miss out, close economic co-operation and aid was offered plus the return of some though not all refeguees plus the chance to look at compensation for those who lost their homes(even though its the arabs as much as the israelis fault that people lost their homes) and this was turned down because to accept it meant that you had to clamp down on the terrorists and arafat knew that hamas and their little friends would never accept peace with israel.

you could have palestine to pre 1948 border and it still wouldnt matter. the stated position of these groups is the eridcation of all jews from palestine.

these americans werent us troops, there were there on a peace mission.

if the palestinians want to be freedom fighters, fine act like them, target the idf which is occupying your land. but they dont, they attack innocent civilains.

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
tbar220
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:20 am

Ok, staying on topic with this one...

For this recent attack, it is indeed the Palestinian side who is to blame for this. It was a remote-controlled bomb which caused the explosion. The dead Americans were a group looking for Palestinians who would be given a full scholarship to go study in the United States. Why would terrorists attack these Americans? And why hasn't Arafat clamped down on these terrorists? I can understand people saying its two sided if the target was Israeli, but this target makes no sense, and this attack has no basis at all. It seems very straight forward to me.

PJ,

To make a statement painting Israel as an "oppressive regime" is a very broad and general statement that doesn't look at the overall situation. You shouldn't make umbrella statements like that.
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sebolino
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:03 am

er, it is not. Until terror is clampded down upon the israelis will be obliged to defend themselves and start military action against the terrorists. It was the terrorists who stated this war. They bombed before the peace process, during the peace process and after the peace process.

This is ridiculous. All this started when the jews began to occupy Palestine and to treat Palestinians as aliens.
Jews and Arabs had no problem living together before 1948.
 
JAL777
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:04 am

Where was this so-called Palestine?
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:17 am

Tbar220 - I don't personally feel that Israel is an oppressive regime (why wouild I) but can easily understand how Palestinians can. As opposed to the vaste majority of American opinion on here I was trying to see things from their point of veiw.

Fair enough ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
tbar220
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:05 am

Sebolino,

The Jews didn't "occupy" Palestine. The Jews that moved to the land called Palestine in the 1900's bought their land from Arab landownders, most of them absentee landowners. Most of the land they purchased was swamp land which they drained and cultivated with their own hands, turning some desolate land into fertile agricultural areas.

PJ,

Well obviously you don't "personally" feel that way, but you made the statement in your post which is why I commented on it. When I see you post that, I'm inclined to think that you believe what you post. And if you do believe that Israel is an "oppressive regime", I feel that you are misinformed.
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pacificjourney
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:18 am

I should correct myself, I think they are oppressive but meant to say that obviously I haven't experienced that oppression myself.

Illegal occupation, military check points, no freedom of movement, theft of land for a 'security' wall, economic strangulation, no right of return (unless you are Jewish), classification by ethnicity ... sounds pretty oppressive to me, what do you call it ? Self defence no doubt.

Just as all Israeli's are not involved in these crimes neither are all Palestinians "terrorists" but you would never guess that from some of the vitriol printed on this site.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
tbar220
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:32 am

PJ,

What do you think is the reason for occupation, checkpoints, and restriction of movement?

As for right of return, Israel is a Jewish state and it should remain that way. If four million Palestinians were to live in Israel, it would no longer be a Jewish state, and that would defeat the whole purpose of a two state solution. If the Palestinians want and get their own state, then that is where the refugees should go. I will start a thread on this topic at a later time.

As for economic strangulation, I'm not even going to begin to say what impact the intefadah has done to the Israeli economy, which has been in the dumps for the last three years.

As for the wall, read my thread about that.

[Edited 2003-10-16 02:33:03]
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delta-flyer
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RE: Gaza Bomb Hits US Envoy

Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:45 am

Ironically, if the Palestinians finally agree to the two-state solution (which they did at Oslo, but have not abided by its terms) they will be right where they were in 1948. All these 50+ years of conflict could have been avoided.

The Arab leaders have always thought, and Arafat still thinks, that Israel will be destroyed and the Palestinians will have control over the entire area. That's why he is not doing anything against terrorists, only condemning them, and that only in front of the international press. I am sure his message in Arabic is quite different.

Pete
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