zak
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Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:54 pm

israeli officials said the construction of the wall/fence will not cease even though an UN resolution (suprisingly enough not vetoed by the usa) has suggested so.
the resolution is not binding yet israel is surely not improving its overall perception worldwide with these warsaw pact style politics.
i wonder when george w. will launch an invasion against israel for ignoring the u.n. decisionmaking*cough*.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3294576,00.html
(english)
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,270747,00.html
(german)
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TS-IOR
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:03 pm


This is the top of arrogance and false feeling of supremacy.Not surprising,but Sharon and his band are going to hear from the U.N.this time,if not it will be from the Palestinians.These latter have at least the legitime allowance to react.
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racko
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wal

Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:15 pm

I simply don't get it. Why don't they just move the fence on their territory, build new beautiful houses for the Settlers in Israel and let the Palestians go to hell (not literally) ? Why do they have to occupy more land with the fence?
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:43 pm


Racko,because they are occupiers and they want to hold perfectly this notion,they assume it indeed !!!
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cfalk
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:41 pm

I think it's time for sanctions on Israel - economic sanctions rampling up month by month until Israel is treated no different than Libya during the 90s (embargo, no int'l flights, etc. Lifting of those sanctions to be made upon the retirement of Israeli troops and citizens behind 1967 borders. If they want a wall, fine. But on the Green Line.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
jcs17
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wal

Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:58 pm

Disagree. Disagree. Disagree. Palestine must learn that nothing will be gained by suicide bombings and allowing its interim "government" to be run by officials that support terrorism. Building this wall is a very positive step in Middle East relations--because Israel is finally taking a hard line on suicide bombings and telling Palestine, in effect, that if it doesnt stop...we'll push you past the borders. Of course, the UN supports the resolution--it is only one of the most anti-Israel bodies in the world. I mean, its the UN--leftist Europeans, anti-anything but Islam, and third world despots...of course, they wont support Israel. Israel could find a cure for world hunger, and the majority of the UN would still be critical of it.

Ts-ior, its amazing what a predominately unfree media will do to your mind, eh?
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david b.
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 10:18 pm

I mean, its the UN--leftist Europeans, anti-anything but Islam, and third world despots...of course, they wont support Israel. Israel could find a cure for world hunger, and the majority of the UN would still be critical of it.


Absolute BS. Why is the US part of the UN?? Anti-anything but Islam? The US is anti-anything but Judaism. Am I correct?

BTW: Why doesn't Sharon built the damn fence on the Green Line and not through the west bank??

I think that Sharon is trying to instigate more violence.



[Edited 2003-10-22 15:20:49]
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pacificjourney
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 10:19 pm

I agree totally with jcs17. Israel should carry on just as they have been in order to ensure their own security. It has obviously worked so well so far they should just carry on the same way !
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aloges
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 11:45 pm

It really gets disturbing when you compare it to how things were going when Rabin was prime minister.

And Jcs17, thanks for the funny read. I manage to see fun in cynicism of that kind; I suppose you were being cynical?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
avi
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 11:48 pm

When it comes to this security fence there is no question of what came first, the chicken or the egg.

This fence is a direct result of the Palestinian terror. Have no mistake, Sharon DIDN’T and DOESN’T want this fence. Hundreds of Israelis were murdered before the government was raped to build it against its will.

The UN, not surprisingly, doesn’t talk about the Palestinian terror. The UN, probably, has no problem with that. Did you ever see a special meeting of the Security Council or the General Assembly after a big Palestinian terror attack? Of course not, they don’t care.

There is a fence around the Gaza strip. None of the more than 100 suicide bombers that entered Israel came from the GS (and it is not because they didn’t try). Only 2 nights ago a suicide bomber was killed on the fence. Maybe this will help you understand why the Palestinians have problems with this fence.

The UN ignores the Palestinian terror and Israel will ignore the UN’s one side decisions (not to mention that the General Assembly decisions are only declaration ones).

Why not to build it on the Green Line? Well, I guess some of you think that terror is a very legitimate way to achieve what you want. I guess some of you think that terrorism deserve a prize. I and nor Israel thinks so.

Since Israel controls both sides of the fence I really can’t see how Israel can occupy more land. Did we cross the Jordan River with this fence?
The Palestinians will have to understand that with terror they will get nothing, they only will lose.

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todaReisinger
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 11:49 pm


...even though an UN resolution (suprisingly enough not vetoed by the usa) has suggested so....


Confusion confusion...

The United States have vetoed the Security Council anti-Israel resolution...

The resolution you're mentionning here is the one of the General Assembly; it is a non-binding resolution, as you say it, and no one has the possibility to veto those decisions...




* * * *



I think it's time for sanctions on Israel - economic sanctions rampling up month by month until Israel is treated no different than Libya during the 90s (embargo, no int'l flights, etc. Lifting of those sanctions to be made upon the retirement of Israeli troops and citizens behind 1967 borders. If they want a wall, fine. But on the Green Line.

Charles



Palestinian atrocities against the Israeli population (blowing up hundreds of civilians in busses and restaurants) are closer to the Libyan actions which prompted the embargo (blowing up hundreds of civilians aboard commercial planes).....so what about "sanctions on the Palestinians"...?



But well, according to some, terror must be rewarded.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
todaReisinger
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 11:53 pm

It really gets disturbing when you compare it to how things were going when Rabin was prime minister.


Things were going wonderfully well when Rabin was PM...

Arafat was receiving more and more territory and weapons and money......and dozens of Israelis were murdered in the streets of Israel by something totally new at the time: suicide bombings.


A really great period......
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
aloges
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 11:53 pm

Sharon is probably even as bad of a terrorism supporter as some of the people who throw stones at Israeli tanks (that destroy their homes and kill their parents/sons/relatives) and yell "Death for Israel!" or similar things. It's just that he supports state terrorism, while those others support personal terrorism. Why is it such a difference whether you kill twenty people using a battle helicopter or a suicide bomber?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
aloges
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Wed Oct 22, 2003 11:56 pm

Well, today, under the splendid reign of Ariel Sharon, hundreds die in suicide bombings and fundamentalism receives more and more supporters every time some missile explodes in a Palestinian residiential area.

A really great period......
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
jcs17
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wal

Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:21 am

Sharon is probably even as bad of a terrorism supporter as some of the people who throw stones at Israeli tanks (that destroy their homes and kill their parents/sons/relatives) and yell "Death for Israel!" or similar things.

Name ONE terrorist organization that Ariel Sharon supports. Make no mistake, I think Sharon is a weak-kneed idiot, but one thing he is not is a terrorist.

For the 2000th time on a.net. Here is why Israel is different then Palestine:

Israel targets TERRORISTS in its military campaigns. Palestinian terrorists target CIVILIANS.

I mean, how hard of a concept is this for some of you to grasp? How the hell is launching missles at a terrorist hideout terrorism? If that were the case, America and the Coalition of the Willing is committing atrocities in Afghanistan. I really believe that some of you have issues with Israel that goes beyond their government and have more of an issue with the people.

The Palestinian government has shown an unwillingness to keep its citizens and terrorist groups in line. Therefore, a fence had to be built, like I have said, its the first positive thing IMO (other then launching missles at terrorist hideouts) that Ariel Sharon has done. The problem with Sharon is that the Palestinians know that he doesnt have the guts to retake vast amounts of land following terrorist acts. A hardline government must be put in place in Israel for the attacks to stop.
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tbar220
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:27 am

The U.N. is the most biased, anti-Israel body in the world. When was the last time they passed a resolution against the Palestinians for carrying out terrorism? When was the last time they passed a resolution for that matter against any Arab nation because they support terrorism?

As far as Israel is concerned, the U.N. is meaningless, and it certainly is. For decades it has been overly critical of Israel and has not had a word of official criticism to those who support terror. How can they pass this censure of Israel without doing the same for Palestinian terror? Because terror wins, and Arafat knows this. That's why he has continually carried it out against Israel.

He massacred 21 people in a Haifa restaurant.
He massacred 19 schoolchildren on a bus in Jerusalem.
He massacred 29 people in a Passover celebration in Netanya.

The list goes on and on, and what does he get in response each time? Criticism of Israel from the U.N. So now you should tell me, why should Israel listen or take seriously what the U.N. says?

This is coming from a world body where Syria of all nations is on the Human Rights commission.
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zak
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:43 am

tbar220:

at least syria doesnt bomb other countries ignoring the un charta etc.
maybe israel needs to do a bit of PR around the world, but to most people it seems that israel is provoking the escalation. after all they attacked syria, they kill innocent civilians in the west bank and gaza strip on a daily basis. you dont go around point fingers at people when you do the same thing. look at the pilots who signed that declaration along with your former national hero spektor, they seemed to have understood that you cant kill civillians yet expect the other site to hold tight. israel might more or less not understanding the cause and effect mechanics or intentionally provoke that to justify a land grab and more attacks on palestine areas.
since the government of israel is clever im sure they understand what the attacks lead to so i go with the second option.
look how most european countries overcame the terror in their countries, they did EXACTLY the opposite. not even spain with still very vivid terror bombs the pais vasco part of the country, because everyone knows NOT everyone there is a terrorist or pro terror, and because they know that answering with terror creates nothing but more terror. the key problem is that israel does not want to go back to the ORIGINAL borders. built your fence round there NO PROBLEM. but israel wants to grab those extra fertile pices of land to make it as hard as possible for any palestine state to exist.
i do see the problem on the israeli side, unless israel doesnt accept a state of palestine and return to the old borders there will be no peace, and after all i think if i would live in palestine i wouldnt see a reason to stop attacks on those who occupy my land. cause as long as israel is occupying palestine territory they are freedom fighters and not terrorists.
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aviationmaster
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:02 am

"but to most people it seems that israel is provoking the escalation."

Not to me. To me Israel only has fought back in selfe defense, I might be wrong but that's how it seems to me.


"cause as long as israel is occupying palestine territory they are freedom fighters and not terrorists."

I don't think you can call the Palestinian terrorists freedom fighters. What difference is there between a so called "freedom fighter" that blows himself up with a terrorist that blows himself up? NONE!

 
zak
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:08 am

a terrorist is someone who out of the blue takes people hostage or kills them to enforce something and help his interests. for example you kill people in who are on holiday like on bali just because you are one of the 0.0000001% of the people in your country who disagree with them doing holiday there.
a freedom fighter is someone who fights for his country against an entity that has occupied his own soil. i.e. french resistance in ww2
10=2
 
aviationmaster
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:38 am

"a terrorist is someone who out of the blue takes people hostage or kills them to enforce something and help his interestsX"

"a freedom fighter is someone who fights for his country against an entity that has occupied his own soil. i.e. french resistance in ww2"

The French resistance NEVER blew themselves up to kill CIVILIANS and until now i have never heared any reports about the French resistance killing CIVILIANS. Also the French resistance fought on their OWN land, in which the Palestinians are crossing over into Israel targeting civilians. To some degree the Palestinians might be freedom fighters, but at the same time they qualify/are terrorists.

"for example you kill people in who are on holiday like on bali just because you are one of the 0.0000001% of the people in your country who disagree with them doing holiday there."

Tourists, the Israeli population or from any other country, all are civilians. Is there really a difference between a tourist getting killed while on vacation or innocent Israelis getting blown up while having dinner in a restaurant?
 
Marcus
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:42 am

"Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall"

Well that is a surprise!..............the only UN resolution Israel likes is the one that creates the State of Israel.......anything else they mostly seem to ignore.
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tbar220
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:48 am

Syria is a state supporter of terrorism. They support groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hizbullah. And if you want to talk about Syria not bombing other countries, how about Syria bombing Israeli population centers in '48, '67, and '73? How about Syria's support of PLO terrorism from southern Lebanon which was aimed at Israeli civilian centers?

People like to look at gross numbers of deaths to determine which side is in the worse. If you do, then about 2000 Palestinians and around 1000 Israeli's are dead because of the recent conflict. But if you look at the numbers of innocent Israeli civilians killed compared to the number of Palestinian civilians killed, the numbers are astonishingly similar. In April 2003, the Boston Globe reported that "18 percent of the nearly 2,000 Palestinians killed by Israeli forces since the uprising began in September 2000 were civilians with no connection to acts of terror." (1) This is about 360 killed while Israel is defending itself from terror. My guess is the total is around or above 400 since this was found. Of the Israeli deaths, 567 have been innocent civilians as of June 23, 2003 (2). The number is probably aroudn or above 600 with the recent rash of suicide bombings.

So why is there such a high Palestinian body count? Included in the 2000 dead are over 100 dead suicide bombers, militants from terrorist groups, Palestinian gunmen, and Palestinians involved in throwing fire bombs, molotov cocktails, and stones at Israeli troops.

Israel is legitimately defending its land from terrorism, and is doing so with restraint as well. The U.N. is an illegitimate body as far as Israel is concerned, with consistent criticism of Israeli policies and no condemnation of Arab terrorism and state sponsored terrorism. Its no wonder Israel feels no need to listen to what the U.N. has to say.

(1) David F. Green, "Fighting by the Book", Boston Globe, April 20, 2003
(2) International Database, IDF Update, June 23, 2003
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mt99
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:55 am

Do you think that the implications of this wall will be the same (in the long run) as the Berlin wall?
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pacificjourney
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:04 am

Sounds about right Mt99 but this time there will be 2 East Germany's.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
aloges
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:08 am

"Name ONE terrorist organization that Ariel Sharon supports. Make no mistake, I think Sharon is a weak-kneed idiot, but one thing he is not is a terrorist."

I said STATE terrorism. He uses Israel's armed forces to terrorise people.

"For the 2000th time on a.net. Here is why Israel is different then Palestine:

Israel targets TERRORISTS in its military campaigns. Palestinian terrorists target CIVILIANS.

I mean, how hard of a concept is this for some of you to grasp? How the hell is launching missles at a terrorist hideout terrorism?"


Oh please, not THAT again. So if Israel is targetting nobody but terrorists, how come that some pilots and even Generals willingly lost their jobs over the idea of attacking "terrorists"? Or was it because they said they didn't want to fight in an illegal war anymore? And what about all the "collateral damage"? It's not forgiven and forgotten with someone just saying "Oops, sorry!" (they don't anyway), but it incites hatred in the entire muslim world.

And who the hell said only killing people can be considered terrorism? There are so many more subtle ways to terrorise people. Sending F-16 over to Beirut to clear up the streets with their sonic booms, denying access to their jobs in Israel to thousands of palestinian workers, invading a different city or town each week, cutting the land of the Palestinians with a wall and thereby ruining the lives of many (how the hell will a Palestinian on the Israelie side of the wall, who isn't allowed to travel to Israel, lead a normal life?) are not ways to terrorise people?

"If that were the case, America and the Coalition of the Willing is committing atrocities in Afghanistan. I really believe that some of you have issues with Israel that goes beyond their government and have more of an issue with the people."

Afghanistan is an entirely different issue. And it's not only the (in)famous "Coalition of the Willing" that's in Afghanistan; I hope you know that. Additionally, I hope you don't suspect me of being anti-Semitic. No, I don't have issues with the people of Israel for I don't even know that people. The only Jewish person I know is someone I like very well. But I do know what Israel's PM is doing, and I do have more than issues with that.

"The Palestinian government has shown an unwillingness to keep its citizens and terrorist groups in line. Therefore, a fence had to be built, like I have said, its the first positive thing IMO (other then launching missles at terrorist hideouts) that Ariel Sharon has done. The problem with Sharon is that the Palestinians know that he doesnt have the guts to retake vast amounts of land following terrorist acts. A hardline government must be put in place in Israel for the attacks to stop."

What would you want that "hardline government" to do? Drive all those nasty Palestinians out of the Westbank and the Gaza Strip? You should know that this would not be the end of anny terrorist attacks, but rather the beginning of a lot more. Sharon is a hardliner, believe it or not. Second, how the hell do you suppose any government to keep "its citizens and terrorist groups in line" if those people are subject to at least weekly attacks by the country many of them already hate anyway? If the government is sabotaged by that same country as much as possible? If that government has to find a way to calm down both muslim fundamentalists and a government like that of Ariel Sharon?

But anyway, I don't expect you, of all people, to understand me. Or an idea like "Don't shoot, but talk."
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
artsyman
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:11 am

If I were Israel, I wouldn't stop building the wall either. They have tried endless other ways to protect their citizens, but the bombers still arrive, so now a wall will keep them out. I notice that when the UN says no to a wall, they never offer an alternative, they never say something like if Isreal doesn't build the wall, then the Palestinian bombers have to stop, Never is their proper condemnation of the bombings, so therefore the Un can goo and take a flying leap for all I care. What has the UN ever done to stop the virtually daily suicide bombings. Sure we see endless resolutions against Israel, but I can't recall ever seeing a resolution against Arafat or against the suicide bombers... why is this ?, because the Palestinians are not part of the UN, therefore cannot be sanctioned by it. Israel should hire non-Israelies to build the wall, and claim that they do not have the power to stop themm building it....

Isn't that what the Palestinians do ?

Jer
 
aloges
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:16 am

"The U.N. is an illegitimate body as far as Israel is concerned, with consistent criticism of Israeli policies and no condemnation of Arab terrorism and state sponsored terrorism."

FALSE. First of all, the UN essentially created Israel. Shouldn't they at least care about their "child"? Second, I found this little phrase: "The resolution added a condemnation of Palestinian suicide bombings mentioning the Oct. 3 attack in Haifa that killed 21 Israelis." right here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3294576,00.html, which is one of the links Zak provided.

Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
galaxy5
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:18 am

"i wonder when george w. will launch an invasion against israel for ignoring the u.n. decisionmaking*cough*."

After they have defied the UN for 10 years, gassed their own people, intimidated their own people via rape, torture, and murder, and tossed out inspectors.

Let me ask you: Should Saddam's violation of UN resolutions been ignored?

Now, c'mon. Is this really about Isreal versus the UN or is this just another shot at Bush?

I love how people "forgot" Clinton mentioned Saddam's WMD programs (including his nuclear program) throughout his presidency and STILL maintained that Saddam had them after he got out of office...but as is all too consistant with DemLibroCritUnists, they're all "experts" after-the-fact.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
ryanb741
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:23 am

Well this is just the last straw. It may seem harsh but I would now urge all Palestinian freedom fighters to attack Israeli settlements WITHIN PALESTINIAN TERRITORY ONLY (as defined by the UN) and soldiers enforcing this land-grab. In no way do I justify the targeting of persons in Israeli cities on Israeli sovereign territories, but any Israelis occupying Palestinian lands are now fair game legitimately as this building of fences in such a way that Palestinian territory is being stolen is an act of occupation, and resistance is mandatory.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
avi
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:46 am

as long as israel is occupying palestine territory they are freedom fighters and not terrorists.

Zak,

Do you think that a woman who enters a restaurant, eats, pays, goes into a toilet, comes out, stand near a baby pram, blow herself up and kills 21 people (all civilians) is a “freedom fighter”?

You can say what ever you want and support which side you want but if you think that, then something very basic is wrong with you.

The order to carry out the attack in Haifa came from Damascus. If you want to jump and say that this is what I say or I should prove it, than I will remind you that the Islamic Jihad terror organization, sitting in Damascus, took the responsibility for the attack and the investigation confirmed that.
Syria was warned many times by Israeli officials, US officials, EU officials, UN officials but nothing happened. Israel had no choice after this attack and re-attacks an Islamic Jihad terror camp in Syria. Now we should wait and see if they got the message.

Aloges,
This is very nice that after many paragraphs that condemn Israel, in a session that was called to condemn Israel, there is a paragraph that condemns Palestinian terror attacks against Israel and the US, but it was not the question.
The question was, when did a UN security council or general assembly session was called to condemn Palestinian actions after big terror attack (and there were many of those) and not as an appendix after a long session against Israel? It never happened.

Long live the B747
 
csavel
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wal

Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:46 am

A seperation fence by itself may be a legitimate respnse to terror, but read on.

A couple of problems with the idea that putting the wall on the Green line would "reward terrorists." That means that siting it where it is - is a resonse to what exactly? How is that more a self-defense respose to terror than a Green Line wall?


The wall the way it is currently routed is a land grab. It would be sad, but I would understand a wall along the Green Line. After all, how much international condemnation was there for the one in Gaza? I don't remember nearly as much. Putting it back on the green line isn't a reward for good behavior, it is the way it should be.

In addition, how has good behavior been rewarded now by Sharon? Was he not the housing minister who accelerated building settlements in the West Bank in the first place? Was he not the politician (along with perhaps Netanyahu) who forged links with the radical Israeli right who believe that Israel has the right to "all" of historic Israel, with each person having a different opinion on just what that is? Is he not obsessed with maps? Does this mean that settlement building in the first place is a "self defense response" to terror? What "was" the reason for bulding settlements in WB/Gaza, then?

What I'm saying is that even though it is obvious that the Palestinian leadership is corrupt and winks at terror, and they should be condemned, and yes, it *would* be nice to have a resolution specifically condeming terror and suicide bombings at the UN, the current Israeli hard-right gov't is using that, and cynically at that, to pursue an expansionist settlement policy tailored to a bunch of religious zealots who want to settle.

C'mon. Do you really think if the Palestinians stopped violence immediately and began singing "We shall overcome" at the wall, it is gonna be stopped. or the foks who live in Arial, or Pisgat Ze'ev or Gilo or Kiryat Arba will say, "Wow now we can have peace" and decamp en masse for Haifa and Tel Aviv? Those settlements look pretty darned permanent to me.

PS This doesn't mean that the Palestinians shouldn't stop violence, besides being morally reprehensible, violence and terror rarely pays results. I know this is a stretch, but Gandhi got results! Martin Luther King got results until he was killed. Xanana Gusmao got results! The IRA got, um, um, um, the PLO got, um, um, um. Kashmiri terrorists got, um, um, um, People remember the acts, and never the grievances, real, imagined, legitimate or not, that generates the violence.
Eventually "We shall overcome" would've worked for the Palestinians, now I fear it is too late.

Shalom/Salaam/Peace
-csavel

I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
manni
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:15 am

While they are at it, they might aswell continue building it. All the way along the borders of the PA, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and the Medditeranean. That way they'll be sure no suicide bombers enter Israel and we, we could make sure none gets out.
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NoUFO
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wal

Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:17 am

Some people with their uneducated hatered against the UN ....

To my knowledge, the UN can neither impose sanctions nor issue resolutions against Palestine, because Palestine is no sovereign country. In terms of the United Nations, Palestine does not exists.
However, as mentioned before, the UN does condemn terrorism (to get this straight: it is terrorism) carried out by Palestinian people.

The UN did come with proposals concerning Gaza and Jerusalem, including peace keeping missions and administering a protectorate for Jerusalem. Israel has always expressed refusal.



[Edited 2003-10-22 20:37:23]
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cfalk
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:15 am

I'm frankly amazed that many of the usual liberals on this forum have suddenly become rather Nazi-ish. Remember Lebensraum?

I totally agree that what the Palestinian terrorists, certain members of the PA and Arafat himself have done and are continuing to do is inexcusable. However, how does that justify building a wall which effectively and permenantly annexes parts of the West Bank into Israel? Since when do two wrongs make a right?

All this wall (going willy-nilly through the West Bank) will do is institutionalize further the terrorists. The wall, and those Israelis living behind it (in the West Bank) will be targets as long as the wall stays up. And we know that walls are not 100% leak-proof. Ask the East Germans. Just wait when some terrorists get a hold of a nuke or other WMD (it is a statistical certainty that it WILL happen one day.

Israel, you want peace, fine. Pull the settlers back to Israel, and you will find most of world opinion, including the UN, on your side against the Palestinians, if they still don't behave.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:03 am

Cfalk,

I agree with almost everything you said on this topic, except for one thing:

I'm frankly amazed that many of the usual liberals on this forum have suddenly become rather Nazi-ish. Remember Lebensraum?

Are you joking? The only members here who seem to be supporting the building of this wall through PA territory are the likes of Jcs17, who I would not exactly call a liberal by any stretch of the imagination....
 
MD-90
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:29 am

You know, if attacks like this were occuring and killing as many people in France or the United States or Australia or wherever else as they have in Israel since 2000, and the government wanted to put up a wall to stop it, I don't think many of us would be complaining if it was happening to us.
 
tbar220
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:40 am

MD-90,

The proportion of Israeli deaths to its population is astounding if you compare it to the United States. Israelis have lost about 1000 dead to acts of terrorism, and this includes Israeli Arab's as well. This is from a population of about six million. If this were to happen in the United States at the same rate, that's about 50,000 American's dead due to terrorism.

And as I've also shown above, comparing Israeli civilian dead to Palestinian dead, the numbers are pretty much the same with slightly more Israeli civilians dead.
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david b.
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wal

Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:11 pm

Well this is just the last straw. It may seem harsh but I would now urge all Palestinian freedom fighters to attack Israeli settlements WITHIN PALESTINIAN TERRITORY ONLY (as defined by the UN) and soldiers enforcing this land-grab. In no way do I justify the targeting of persons in Israeli cities on Israeli sovereign territories, but any Israelis occupying Palestinian lands are now fair game legitimately as this building of fences in such a way that Palestinian territory is being stolen is an act of occupation, and resistance is mandatory.

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IndianGuy
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:14 pm

If the soviet backed section of Germany could do it in another era then Israel can do it today. What matters is getting the support of a superpower and that Israel has done.

-Roy
 
cfalk
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:42 pm

What matters is getting the support of a superpower and that Israel has done.

Roy, The U.S. is against the wall, voted for the resolution, and has has already started unilateral sanctions on Israel in the form of denied credit guarantees. So your statement is hardly fair. The only question is how far Bush will be willing to go against Israel.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
tbar220
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:06 pm

Cfalk,

If I remember reading correctly, the U.S. voted no against the resolution. It was one of four who voted no.
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cfalk
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:51 pm

Oops, my mistake. I thought they had voted for it. Apparently they decided against it because the resolution does not condemn terrorism as well (and I think it should - I don't recall that the UN has ever specifically condemned Palestinian terrorism or other Arab attacks against Israel, even the 1973 war). But I think the U.S. should have voted for it anyway. Disappointing.

But they have at least imposed some form of economic sancions against Israel over the wall in the form of the guarantees.

Side note: One of the UN's problems is that it can't decide on a definition of terrorism. The recent working group of the Sixth Committee of the General Assembly found itself, after many years of similar attempts, deadlocked over a Comprehensive Convention Against Terrorism, because the Organization of Islamic Conference is denying consensus over the issue of a definition of terrorism, since blowing up Israelis does not count in their books.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:31 pm

Cfalk where do you get that info from ?

Many countries have difficulty coming up with a definition of terrorism (France and the USA spring to mind) and it is quite wrong on your part to put blame on Islamic countries alone.

It may seem like some talk shop detail but if there is to be a blanket denunciation of a certain behaviour then surely that behaviour should be accurately described.

I don't have a comprehensive definition and neither I'm sure do you.
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todaReisinger
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:33 pm

Israel, you want peace, fine. Pull the settlers back to Israel, and you will find most of world opinion, including the UN, on your side against the Palestinians, if they still don't behave.


If it will be of PRIME IMPORTANCE for Israel to have the world opinion (and in particular the UN) on her side when katiushas and "kassam" rockets will make life impossible in Tel Aviv and downtown Jerusalem...It will be highly important for Israel to know that Mr Cfalk is really horrified and sorry to learn what happened to the plane he photographed the same morning in GVA....It will be essential for Israel to know that the "world opinion" is behind her when thousands of foreign diplomats and businessmen will be trying to leave the country.......
Because these are the scenarios which would follow a return to the 1967 Israeli-Jordanian cease-fire lines; you will jump to say that I'm foolish, that I'm exagerating and so on.....but that's exactly what had been said to those who warned against the dangers of the Oslo accords....But who would have forseen ten years ago that such large scale massacres would take place in the heart of Israel...?


And anyway...I can garantee you that even in such a situation the "world opinion" or the UN would not be in favor of Israeli defensive actions...Everything would simply be as today, when the most barbaric acts of blind violence are committed against hundreds of Israeli civilians without ANY sign of understanding for Israeli counterterror operations; the next round of terror will have another "reason": Israel must "end the occupation" of the territories annexed in 1949, AND let millions of Arabs invade Tel Aviv, Netanya or Haifa...



Or what? What do you suggest Israel will do in case the Palestinians still "don't behave"?
I'd like to hear your proposals.

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tbar220
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:45 pm

PJ,

Funny how you have no problem jumping so quick to criticize Israel but you have a hard time finding what defines terrorism? I'll tell you what terrorism is.

Terrorism is the deliberate use of force against innocent civilians as a method of progressing towards one's goal. There is a huge moral difference between the murderous methods used by Palestninian terrorists and the defense of ones nation by the IDF.

Another method of terrorism can be "premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatants" (1). In the last three years of the intefadah, 567 Israeli civilians have died due to terrorism. They were direct targets of the terrorists.

There's a grave difference between civilians being direct targets of war, and being unfortunate casualities as a part of war. Many people do not see this, and need to draw the line here.

(1)Brian Whitaker, "The Definition of Terrorism", www.guardian.co.uk, May 7, 2001
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cfalk
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:07 am

What do you suggest Israel will do in case the Palestinians still "don't behave"?
I'd like to hear your proposals.


If Israel continued to be attacked from forces outside her borders, when Israelis live in Israel and not in the West Bank / Gaza, then there is every justification in the world to "take the gloves off". Until that time, Israel's status as "the good guys" against terrorism is muddied by the fact that Israelis are living on land which is not theirs, that they are trying to take still more, and that the terrorists are trying to reclaim it.

So you have, in summary :

Israel:
- Does not use indiscriminate terrorism; is a democracy (good)
- Is attempting to permenantly occupying and annexing foreign land (bad)

The Palestinians :
- Use terrorist tactics (bad)
- Are trying to reclaim land rightfully theirs, as fas as the west bank is concerned (good, or at the least very defendable)

This is very simplified, but the idea that I'm trying to say is that, seen objectively, both sides in this conflict are doing bad things, and it muddies the water when trying to choose sides. People generally like to support the underdogs, and as it is Israelis which are settling in Palestinian lands and suppressing those Palestinians who don't like it, the Palestinians are the underdogs - regardless of what tactics they use.

If the civilian population of Israel withdrew to the Green Line, it would once again be in the right, with no muddy water.

If there continue to be attacks on Isreal in spite of the dismantlement of all settlements, Israel would have the moral justification for striking back hard. That's what the Israeli Army and Air Force are there for.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:07 am

My definition of terrorism is of no consequence, yours however

"the deliberate use of force against innocent civilians"

can be easily applied to Israeli planes shooting missiles into apartment buildings. No doubt you have a flexible definition of the words 'deliberate' and 'innocent' but there are dead people on both sides and even the rabid zionists on here can't deny it.

You see the difficulty in coming up with a definition evryone agrees with, that was all I was saying.

Again for the record, you guys can blow each other to shit forever and a day for all I care. Just don't insult other peoples intelligence by insisting that 'you' are right and 'they' are wrong. I think you are both FITH !

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manni
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:29 am

Pretty amuzing that besides the obvious (Israel and the USA) also the Marshall Islands and Micronesia voted in favor of the wall.
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cfalk
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:03 am

My definition of terrorism is of no consequence, yours however

"the deliberate use of force against innocent civilians"

can be easily applied to Israeli planes shooting missiles into apartment buildings.


Pacificjourney, I know you refuse to see the difference, but there is a difference - someone in that appartment building was the actual target. A bomb-maker, a planner, whatever. At some point a decision was taken that he could not be reliably located at a more suitable location, and that if Israel had to "take him out", it would have to be there. The presence of innocent civilians is unfortunate but unavoidable if the target is to be hit. They are collateral damage - something to be minimized if at all possible while still servicing the target.

No matter what you say, there is a very distinct difference between that case, and when the innocent civilians are themselves the target. In that case, there is no such thing as collateral damage, as the terrorists seek to ensure the maximum number possible of innocent victimes. Israel does not do this.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
donder10
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RE: Israel To Ignore U.n. Resolution Regarding Wall

Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:17 am

I too feel that Israel is wrong to build the 'Wall' on its current line-it should be on the Green Line.However,if Israel were also to build a wall on the green line and say that they will move back to this one only when the suicide bombings were stopped then I probably wouldn't disagree with it.
One to remember is that Hamas' stated goal is the destruction of the state of Israel.Even if Israel moved back to its agreed boundary would the attacks stop?

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