racko
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It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:25 pm

By now US soldiers are losing their lifes daily in Iraq. I think their administration is really downplaying how bad it is, I feel really sorry for the guys who are just doing what the President ordered them to do.  Sad

"BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The U.S. death toll from a downed Chinook helicopter near Fallujah, has risen to 13, military officials said.

The helicopter was shot down by a shoulder-type missile, about 60 kilometers west of the Iraqi capital Baghdad, at 8 a.m. Sunday, witnesses told CNN.

It was one of three separate attacks Sunday, which saw at least one other U.S. servicemen killed in a convoy attack in Baghdad at about midnight."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/02/sprj.irq.int.main/index.html

I really can't understand why there isn't any uproar in the US. They are 19, 20 years old boys who decided to work for their country, and now the government lets them sit there, with the daily threat of death. Imagine what a terrible feeling it must be for the soldiers.

"CNN's Matthew Chance said crowds of Iraqis gathered quickly in the "flashpoint" city chanting anti-U.S. slogans."

They witness how their comrades are killed, and then they also witness how masses of people celebrate every single dead US soldier.



[Edited 2003-11-02 12:31:01]
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:36 pm

Stupid terrorists.

They should be locked up or worse I say. So stupid that their fellow humans are trying to build up their country democratically and economically and all they can do is to kill them

Idiotic
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Dufo
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:48 pm

And what if they simply don't want 'democracy'?

Jernej
I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
 
zak
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:13 pm

why are they terrorists. after all they are in THEIR HOMELAND fighting a force that has invaded it. that makes, no matter how evil saddams regime was, the americans the illegal agressor and anyone fighting them a freedom fighter, fully legitimated to do anything he can against the invading power in his homeland.
if someone would have invaded my country and i would fight them i would surely think of myself as freedom fighter and not terrorist.
but i guess after 9/11 anything that fights for something that the corporate media doesnt agree with has become a terrorist and people actually buy it.
10=2
 
L-188
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:32 pm

Zak most of that terrorist swine, isn't "Iraqi Freedom fighters" but rather foreign nationals from Saudi, Syria and the like.

And most of that swine is being attracted to Iraq by irresponsible media of the region, such as Al-Jazeera playing up reports of American deaths and such. They make the National Enquirer look like the BBC.

Oh and I should add that only "eyewitnesses" report a missile at this time. Just like every damn time a plane goes down "eyewitnesses" claim that they say flames coming from it.

Wait and see if that is the real story. Al-Jazeera won't.

[Edited 2003-11-02 13:37:12]
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
kilavoud
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:34 pm

Dufo,

"Democracy" can sometimes be a mere word if security is not being offered. To live in an unsafe country must me a nightmare even during daytime. I would myself even find it hard to imagine flying over Iraq when flying between Switzerland and India and vice versa. Who will solve this situation becoming more and more dramatic for both innocent Iraqis and US soldiers ? Who can approach this trap the right way ? Are Humans intelligent enough to do it ? Let us wait and see.

Regards. Kilavoud.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:40 pm

Strange that all what is happening now was predicted... and not by the neo conservative 'intelligence' (*cough*).

Don't generalise the terroristic attacks to every Iraqi. It's actually a small bunch of fundamentalists against another small bunch of fundamentalists (with on the one side the terrorists like Al Qaeda and on the other side the neo conservative extreme right clann around Bush).

Like the terrorists are driven by religion, also Bush is driven by religion and economical/geographical reasons.

I hope for a new administration next year, a big improvement in the transatlantic relations, and this should be a first step towards a multilateral approach to Iraq, because untill now, only the Iraqi civilians and the Soldiers were victims of Bush and the terrorists. It becomes time to give those people a good future.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:43 pm

And most of that swine is being attracted to Iraq by irresponsible media of the region, such as Al-Jazeera playing up reports of American deaths and such.

The other extreme is the American TV, where apparently pictures etc from funerals of American soldiers are banned from now. The people may not see how cruel it is in Iraq?

A lot of people supported the war only because they stood behind their soldiers. Now after all those months, a lot of people (actually who not) are still behind their soldiers, but not after the decision to invade Iraq anymore. And that's a good move me thinks.
 
L-188
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:44 pm

A multilateral approach to Iraq.

Where was a multi-lateral approach when France, Russia and Germany attempted to block the enforcement of UN resolutions in Iraq this spring.

Where was France and Germany this week when donations for the reconstruction of Iraq where being asked for?

A multi-lateral approach went out the window, by the choice of those countries, at least 8 months ago.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L-188
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:45 pm

Sabena, How much American news are you watching, because all of the major media in this country are getting their jollies reporting body counts.

Apparently it reminds Dan Rather of Nam.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:06 pm

Where was a multi-lateral approach when France, Russia and Germany attempted to block the enforcement of UN resolutions in Iraq this spring.

Dude, has America unilaterally invaded or not? It is the right of countries to block a UN veto. What if we all would start invading country X and Y with some fake arguments? That would be a nice world!

Where was France and Germany this week when donations for the reconstruction of Iraq where being asked for?

Why do we have to pay for the mistakes of your administration?
 
racko
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:11 pm

L-188,

Germany has given about 200.000.000 € for Iraq. Considering that our financial situation is not very good that's a good amount of money.
 
zak
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:12 pm

@L-188

the amount of attacks makes it imperative that they have indeed rather large support by iraqis. otherwise they wouldnt be able to execute all these attacks.
i dont doubt that there are non iraqi nationals on the side of the iraqi resistance fighting. but in my opinion that doesnt change the case of them being freedom fighters.
i dont recall anyone calling the mudjahedeen in afghanistan, of whom many werent afghanis and who were mostly paid by the cia, fighting the soviet invasion, were called terrorists. they were freedom fighters, and rightfully so in my opinion.
so if you apply the same logic you have the iraqi resistance in the same tune of being freedom fighters. that is if you arent a hypocrite about it.

on the other hand if terrorist is only defined by being for or against the current case of the american adminstration they are surely terrorists.
and if that is the case i would guess the rest of the world has a terroristical spirit too since the majority of the people on our pathetic planet unable of solving problems peacefully oppose the current course of the usa.
10=2
 
L-188
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:28 pm

No the US did not unilaterally invade. It was a multinational effort by countries that think the UN should actually enforce it's mandates.

And most (A few weeks ago I heard a figure of 95%) of these attacks occur in the "sunni triangle"(How many attacks do you know of that hasn't occured in Fallujah?) The rest of the country apparently doesn't have a problem with militants trying to bomb themselves back into the stone age.

You don't hear of major problems in the Kurdish north or the Shite south....I wonder why.....could it be they are glad to see Saddam out of power.

We just now need to finish the job, which is finding him and killing him.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
777236ER
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:30 pm

It was a multinational effort by countries that think the UN should actually enforce it's mandates.

It was a multination effort by counties that thought Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was an imminent threat and included the US, UK...er...Palau...um...
Your bone's got a little machine
 
L-188
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:55 pm

Well you are up to three on that list which means that any action by definition can't be "Uni-lateral"


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
777236ER
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:55 pm

But it's hardly that "multinational" is it?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
zak
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:00 pm

i think splitting hairs doesnt really matter. even the british people were against it even though they participated. i think its a safe bet that the only three countries which citizens supported this attack by majority are the usa, israel and kuweit.
and as kofi annan pointed out it was not justified by the u.n. under any circumstances, no matter how often fox news says it was.
it was, is, and will always be an act of agression, invasion and neo colonialism by the thugs of bushs government and their cronies in and outside the usa.
all the discussions about unilateral or bought mulilateral token governments in other countries will not change that fact.
10=2
 
L-188
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:04 pm

Well you can't call it Bi-latteral.......There where more then two.

And three, while it may be tri-latteral is still multilatteral.

Besides you left the Poles off your list. They had special forces teams securing seaports in the war.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
777236ER
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:17 pm

So out of the whole Western World (happy, Yyz717?) three countries supported the war, and of those countries the majority in the UK didn't want it?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
zak
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:31 pm

to add something to the original topic:
death toll of the chopper crash is at 15 now with 21 injured
10=2
 
airplay
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:21 am

I used to get slammed pretty regulary on this forum for predicting this outcome. Of course the rest of my "prophecy" that includes the US leaving Iraq to twist in the wind and a Saddam-like force retaking power is still to materialize, but the rest of my prediction is right on schedule.

This "whatever-lateral" invasion was a bad idea from the start. I don't know why anyone is surprised the situation is going down the toilet in a hurry. Expect more of the same until either Iraq is obliterated completely or public opinion threatens to sour the results of a presidential election....

I don't think anyone will ever argue that Saddam was (is) a bad man. But America must learn that the "American way" isn't the ideological cure-all for all the worlds woes.

 
Alpha 1
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:05 am

Stupid terrorists.

Again, that's a convenient label put on these people by Bush to spin the war. Calling them "terrorists" is another in the never-ending game of "scare the American people" by this Administration. Perhaps these aren't terrorists, but simply people from Iraq who are against the occupation? But to call them "insurgents" or "the opposition" would just be admintting that "the war" is continuing, now a full 7 months after Bush said it was all but over. It isn't over. This attack isn't terrorism-terrorism is attacks on civilians to scare a government and a populace-this is war. It's high time we stop calling it something it isn't.

Zak most of that terrorist swine, isn't "Iraqi Freedom fighters" but rather foreign nationals from Saudi, Syria and the like.

We've see no proof of this, L-188, but since Bush says it's so, you pucker your lips, genuflect, and believe it. You make it sound like nary an Iraqi is involved in this. I'd wager the opposite. Either way, it isn't "terrorism", it's "warfare". Stop being so blind and open your eyes. We're in the middle of a serious war here, not a terrorist operation.

And most of that swine is being attracted to Iraq by irresponsible media of the region..

Oh, how fucking convenient-blame the media!!  Laugh out loud Never mind that the U.S., virtually by itself, invaded a soverign nation that wasn't at war with us-it's the media's fault. My my, how you've fallen, L-188.

Where was a multi-lateral approach when France, Russia and Germany attempted to block the enforcement of UN resolutions in Iraq this spring.

Agian, putting the blame where it doesn't belong, L-188. France, Russian and Germany have the right to make their own decision, although you think they should just be like you-an ass-kisser for Bush. I agree with you on them not giving a cent to Iraq, but, in a sense, I don't blame them, after Washington treated them like shit before the war. This is Bush and Blair's war, not that of Paris, Berlin or Moscow.

A multi-lateral approach went out the window, by the choice of those countries, at least 8 months ago.

Again, blaming those who didn't start the war. The multi-lateral approach went out the window becuase of our desire to push this war as fast as possible. It was the U.S., who, the second 1441 passed, had decided to go to war, and we made it clear that we'd do it along. So again, you are, as usual on this subject, dead wrong. The multi-lateral approach went out the window by the choice of Bush and his arrogance to tell the world "it's my way or the highway". Well, he got his war, and it will be his legacy of his presidency.

No the US did not unilaterally invade. It was a multinational effort by countries that think the UN should actually enforce it's mandates.

L-188, maybe you're dumb enough to believe that, but don't insult the intelligence of everyone on this board. We would have invaded had no one supported us. Simply because a few nations tagged along doesn't mean that the decision to go to war falls on the one man that you don't have the balls or the intelligence to EVER critisize. Those nations would not have gone to war unless the U.S. did, so the war is still unilateral. Without us, there is no war.

You don't hear of major problems in the Kurdish north or the Shite south....I wonder why.....could it be they are glad to see Saddam out of power.

Again, you insult our intelligence. The north and the south weren't even under control of Saddam when the war started. Iraq was, for all intent and purpose, 3 states by that time.

L-188, we are in a war-not a police action; not a terrorist plot; it's a war. And it's time people like you stop pretending it isn't. Such blindness is a slap n the face to the brave men and woman who are over there, doing the best they can, under difficult circumstances, who see their comrades go home every day in body bags. You insult the memories of our soldiers who have died by your blindness to the fact that they're fighting a war, and that they shouldn't have been in this posltion to begin with. Amazing, coming form someone who once served in the Armed Forces. But it's the truth-you dishonor with your blind igonrance.
 
b757300
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:02 am

Its sad that many on this forum are actually happy over this incident. They feel like it is finally the incident they need to force the U.S. to pull out of Iraq and to defeat President Bush in the 04 elections. Gephardt was on tv this morning and actually said "Now I know I can win the election!". Talk about a very sick individual but that is the attitude of the mainstream left in this country. I guess all the lefties should go celebrate in the streets like the whackos are doing over in the Middle East.

Maybe its time to stop fighting a PC war and simply remove certain areas from the map. A few B-52's or B-1B's would do the job very nicely of destroying the two major terrorist hot spots in Iraq. Then again, so would one Peacekeeper.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
777236ER
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:14 am

A few B-52's or B-1B's would do the job very nicely of destroying the two major terrorist hot spots in Iraq.

And would kill enough civilians to count as a war crime.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Alpha 1
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:33 am

Its sad that many on this forum are actually happy over this incident.

I sincerely hope you do not include myself into that group, B757300. There is nothing to be happy about. It's tragic, not happy. Sure, you have your Roy's, and a few Euro's, who take some perverse pleasure in all of this. To me, I'm very sad about it, and very angry. I don't think ANY of this was even necessary, and I hate seeing these young Americans' lives cut short because of a flawed policy.

They feel like it is finally the incident they need to force the U.S. to pull out of Iraq and to defeat President Bush in the 04 elections.

We can not pull out of this situation. That's the worst thing we can do. As for the second, only time will tell. We're a year away, and he's still the front-runner. If this continues, though, even you have to admit, B757300, that it could hurt his chance for a 2nd term.

Talk about a very sick individual but that is the attitude of the mainstream left in this country.

Oh, grow up, man. Would you rather the man say "I don't have a fucking chance in hell, so I'm just going to quit"? Every man in the race thinks he has a chance, and you're just looking for something to bitch at a Democrat about. What you do best is bitch about Dems and kiss up to Bush. This way, you can do both.

Maybe its time to stop fighting a PC war and simply remove certain areas from the map. A few B-52's or B-1B's would do the job very nicely of destroying the two major terrorist hot spots in Iraq.

Yes, we've already laid waste to much of their nation-just wipe it off the map, and be done with it. Of course, you'd find a way to blame everyone but President Bush for it, that's for sure.

What we don't need is arrogant, knee-jerk reactions like yours. What we need is to face up to the fact that a serious war is still going on, and act like it's serious. No more of this "bring them on" horse shit, but the Administration needs to come out and tell the people "look, we're still in a serious war, and we're going to do what is necessary to end the violence." None of this prattle about "terorrists" (who, interestingly, weren't there before the war began, if that's what they are), but telling it like it is-it's a war, and we're going to redouble our efforts to win it.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:50 am

Maybe its time to stop fighting a PC war and simply remove certain areas from the map. A few B-52's or B-1B's would do the job very nicely of destroying the two major terrorist hot spots in Iraq.

People like you, B757300, cause only one thing in the world: misery.
And try to convince us now that Bush invaded Iraq to save the Iraqi civilians  Insane You proved already enough in the past, and with the above you put some kind of climax on it, that you and that idiot neo conservative clann (read: the bush administration), do not give a sh*t about anything but America.

The only reason I do not loose my respect for the American people is simply because I know that individuals like you are in the minority.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:59 am

A quote from the story on the Chinook attack:

This was a new lesson from the resistance, a lesson to the greedy aggressors,'' one Fallujah resident, who wouldn't give his name, said of the helicopter downing. "They'll never be safe until they get out of our country,'' he said of the Americans.

"OUR country", he said, B757300. Doesn't sound like a foreign "terrorist" to me. Sounds like a man who wants a foreign invader out of his nation.

Now, tell me once again, that this simply "terrorism". It's war. And too many Iraqi's don't like the fact we ran their country over.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 3:22 am

More and more people are claiming that the war actually started since a few weeks. This in line with the above post of Alpha1.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:27 am

The USA can't just pull out of Iraq though, that would be like an admission of defeat to the terrorists that are killing off our soldiers. Yes, they are terrorists.


The American soldiers, right now, are there to keep the country somewhat secure until a stable (or as stable as possible) government can be put in place by Iraqis and wsterners working together. I don't buy the statements by Bush that the Iraqi government will be 100% constructed and ran by Iraqis. That's a lie. There will be some control by the UN or western nations that will still exist in some levels of the government because the last thing the US, UK, or other parties want is another corrupt government rising in Iraq.

These soldiers include kids 18 and 19 years old who are only there because their country and their president ordered them to be there. I'm sure most if not all of them wish they didnt have to be there right now. All of them have families who want to see them come home safely. I dont call the people who kill off these kids "freedom fighters". They're not. They're killing people that truly have no say in whether the occupation continues or not. All they're doing is trying to scare the US government enough to force them to leave.

I'm sick of the whole thing. I truly am. Every time I turn on CNN I hear about a new soldier that's died, or a new downed helicopter. A bombing at a public place or people being injured in blasts meant to kill. I'm fed up with the damn thing. I try to avoid the news on CNN because I'm sick of hearing about it. The saddest part of it all is if they'd just knock off the killing and let their new government establish itself, the american troops would leave. The troops arent going anywhere until the USA and UK are sure of the country's stability, and when there's car bombs going off practically daily in Baghdad, that doesnt send a message of stability to the world. The troops remain.

The terrorists are stupid. If they truly want everyone gone as soon as possible, they'd allow the country to present a false sense of security to the world. But think about it.....they don't really want us to leave alive, do they. They're fighting their holy war and for every 19 year old life they take, that's two more virgins waiting in heaven for them. They dont care about us. All they want is death, death to anyone from, representing, or having values similar to the western world.

Terrorists. They have no soul.

And if there's one other thing that I've learned about all this, it's that the world truly does hate America, and Americans. People think American media is the only one that spreads propaganda. Check the european media as well, folks, or the russian media, or just about any newspaper or news network in the world. They are all biased. All of them slant the information to their own purposes. All of them are after ratings and will skew the story to match, or create, popular opinion. American's arent any more gullible than the rest of the world, we're educated human beings as well, and you can just as easily be swayed by the media's portrayal of events in Germany or New Zealand or anywhere else, as you can in america. I am tired, exhausted really, from comments from people telling us we're stupid because we "believe everything the media tells us". Really? I would think that America, like any other country in the world, has it's fair share of highly skeptical, educated, independent people who not only take what the media says with a grain of salt, but actively seek to learn for themselves what is going on in the world.

Of course, some people still think all Americans are under-educated cowboys with no real "civilized, urban culture". No doubt partly because of the gun problem? Don't judge everyone based on the actions of the few. We're every bit as civilized as the UK, every bit as educated as Germany, every bit as human as the French. Please, stop telling us that we all sit in front of the TV, our every breath hanging on what the newscasters say next, every though and feeling and emotion guided by the CNNs of the world. We're not that lazy, we;re not that stupid, we're not that gullible. Don't judge an entire nation based on the actions of a few.


I'm tired of feeling prejudice online because I'm an american. Some of the people who judge don't think about how it might make another person feel. Tell me, how fair is it for people to say "I hate france" and then treat french people like crap based on some sort of stupid prejudice born out of a conflict between the leaders of the nations. It's degrading towards the people of france.

The same applies to the "I hate America(ns)" crowd...don't you think it's a little unfair the way we are also judged as a people? You must hear both sides of the story. We're all human after all, I'm tired of the prejudice.


I just had to say this. I hope it doesnt offend anyone. You need to understand that what I am saying in this thread is that we should all stop trying to judge each other based on nationality or what the leaders of our countries do. You can hate bush all you want, doesnt mean all Americans are like him. I took serious issue with the "France is Bad" campaigns that went around because of a FEW people in the USA a while back. Because it was wrong. It was wrong to some people to say they hate france and french people. It isnt fair because really, the only people they disliked were in the french government. But you know what, not everyone felt that way, not all of us are gullible.

So I hope that everyone here will understand what I am saying. In someone's famous words: "Why can't we all just get along?"  Sad
 
zak
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:29 am


"Why can't we all just get along?"
cause president puppet bush had to make some money for the people behind the scenes. even saddam was being honest and cooperative in the end(no wmd found and unlimited access to un inspectors since 1441 has passed proves the eurotrash and united nation agencies right and demasks bush as a warmonger).
so i honestly think there would be peace and a solution would have been found without a doubt with united pressure against iraq. but war pays, and thats what behind it.
10=2
 
Alpha 1
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:02 am

Yes, they are terrorists.

As far as I'm concerened, they're not. Terrorists, as we know them, go after soft civilian targets to scare a polulation. These are attacks on the U.S. Armed Forces. As far as I'm concerened, they're the attacks by an enemy in a war. Of course, the idiots we all are, we let our leaders call this war an "Operation", like it's a God Damned exercise. This is warfare, not terror. Terror is hitting the civilians. This is going after a military. But, if you want to call it "terror" to continue to justify something that isn't justifiable, go right ahead.

There will be some control by the UN or western nations that will still exist in some levels of the government because the last thing the US, UK, or other parties want is another corrupt government rising in Iraq.

Then, left to you, there will never be peace in Iraq. The Iraqi's want to run the country, not ceede some of their soverignty to the U.S. or the U.N. You want a long, protracted struggle-then do what you suggest.

Left to your thinking, we need to get our noses in about 3/4 of the worlds governments, because they're also corrupt. Do you want to do that? I don't. Leave Iraq for the Iraqi's. It's their country to do as they please.

These soldiers include kids 18 and 19 years old who are only there because their country and their president ordered them to be there.

Take out the "their country" part, and you have it 100% correct.

I'm sure most if not all of them wish they didnt have to be there right now.

There's probably a few nuts embedded in there, who think warfare is their great destiny, but they're the small, small minority. Most wish the hell they were at home, making love to their wifes, husbands, girlfriends or boyfriends. The last place they want to be is a target in Iraq.

I'm sure most if not all of them wish they didnt have to be there right now.

I'm sure on FOX, you'll get a much more positive vie wof the war.  Wink/being sarcastic

Of course, some people still think all Americans are under-educated cowboys with no real "civilized, urban culture".

That's what happens when you get a daily dose of George W. Bush.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:20 am

Those ungrateful Iraqis !!! After all we have done for them. And now the liberal media is going to be reporting this latest act. I wish more people could see that all we want is the oil.... We don't want war just oil that's all. Bastards!!!
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:22 am

Dc10guy, for the millionth time-WE WEREN'T AFTER THEIR FUCKING OIL!  Smile

If we were, we'd be paying a a buck-twenty for gas, not a buck sixty. We haven't profited one bit for their oil. Get that through your head, will you?
 
DC10GUY
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:25 am

We are to after their oil ... If there was no oil we wouldn't be there.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
OO-AOG
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:32 am

We just now need to finish the job, which is finding him and killing him

What about "arrest" him between the "finding" and "killing"?! Oh yeah, I remember, no more laws, no more rules .. .

No the US did not unilaterally invade. It was a multinational effort by countries that think the UN should actually enforce it's mandates

And of course it's the same "multinational" governing Iraq right now isn't it? I though, but I might be wrong, that the only ones that have power right now are the US ...

I still can't understand how you can call them terrorists, it's an illegal foreign invasion of a country by another one and therefore you can't call "terrorist" those not accepting the invaders. In french, you would call them "La resistance".

If I was Bush, I would rush to put a true local government in place, handle the whole thing to the UN, forget the oil and get the hell out of there before it's too late. But of course that won't happen.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
N79969
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:44 am

There's no question that these guys are terrorists. The people that are attacking U.S. forces do not want freedom for Iraqis, they want freedom for themselves so they can install either a new Baathist government or a new Taliban state. Do not romanticize these monsters as some kind of 'freedom fighters." See article below:

**************

October 30, 2003
It's No Vietnam
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Since 9/11, we've seen so much depraved violence we don't notice anymore when we hit a new low. Monday's attacks in Baghdad were a new low. Just stop for one second and contemplate what happened: A suicide bomber, driving an ambulance loaded with explosives, crashed into the Red Cross office and blew himself up on the first day of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. This suicide bomber was not restrained by either the sanctity of the Muslim holy day or the sanctity of the Red Cross. All civilizational norms were tossed aside. This is very unnerving. Because the message from these terrorists is: "There are no limits. We have created our own moral universe, where anything we do against Americans or Iraqis who cooperate with them is O.K."

What to do? The first thing is to understand who these people are. There is this notion being peddled by Europeans, the Arab press and the antiwar left that "Iraq" is just Arabic for Vietnam, and we should expect these kinds of attacks from Iraqis wanting to "liberate" their country from "U.S. occupation." These attackers are the Iraqi Vietcong.

Hogwash. The people who mounted the attacks on the Red Cross are not the Iraqi Vietcong. They are the Iraqi Khmer Rouge — a murderous band of Saddam loyalists and Al Qaeda nihilists, who are not killing us so Iraqis can rule themselves. They are killing us so they can rule Iraqis.

Have you noticed that these bombers never say what their political agenda is or whom they represent? They don't want Iraqis to know who they really are. A vast majority of Iraqis would reject them, because these bombers either want to restore Baathism or install bin Ladenism.

Let's get real. What the people who blew up the Red Cross and the Iraqi police fear is not that we're going to permanently occupy Iraq. They fear that we're going to permanently change Iraq. The great irony is that the Baathists and Arab dictators are opposing the U.S. in Iraq because — unlike many leftists — they understand exactly what this war is about. They understand that U.S. power is not being used in Iraq for oil, or imperialism, or to shore up a corrupt status quo, as it was in Vietnam and elsewhere in the Arab world during the cold war. They understand that this is the most radical-liberal revolutionary war the U.S. has ever launched — a war of choice to install some democracy in the heart of the Arab-Muslim world.

Most of the troubles we have encountered in Iraq (and will in the future) are not because of "occupation" but because of "empowerment." The U.S. invasion has overturned a whole set of vested interests, particularly those of Iraq's Sunni Baathist establishment, and begun to empower instead a whole new set of actors: Shiites, Kurds, non-Baathist Sunnis, women and locally elected officials and police. The Qaeda nihilists, the Saddamists, and all the Europeans and the Arab autocrats who had a vested interest in the old status quo are threatened by this.

Many liberals oppose this war because they can't believe that someone as radically conservative as George W. Bush could be mounting such a radically liberal war. Some, though, just don't believe the Bush team will do it right.

The latter has been my concern. Can this administration, whose national security team is so divided, effectively stay the course in Iraq? Has the president's audacity in waging such a revolutionary war outrun his ability to articulate what it's about and to summon Americans for the sacrifices victory will require? Can the president really be a successful radical liberal on Iraq, while being such a radical conservative everywhere else — refusing to dismiss one of his own generals who insults Islam, turning a deaf ear to hints of corruption infecting the new Baghdad government as it's showered with aid dollars, calling on reservists and their families to bear all the burdens of war while slashing taxes for the rich, and undertaking the world's biggest nation-building project with few real allies?

I don't know. But here's what I do know: If Mr. Bush doesn't treat the next year as his second term, when he must do all the right things in Iraq without regard to politics, it is the only second term he's going to see.




On Oct. 23, when I cited 900 wounded in action in Iraq, I was referring to the period since Mr. Bush declared major fighting over on May 1. I was still wrong. Pentagon data shows 1,059 U.S. soldiers wounded in action from May 1 to Oct. 22.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/30/opinion/30FRIE.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists%2fThomas%20L%20Friedman&pagewanted=print&position=


[Edited 2003-11-03 00:48:48]
 
N79969
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:47 am

I posted this in another thread yesterday but I think this op-ed by the same author is relevant here as well.


***************

**************************

November 2, 2003
OP-ED COLUMNIST
The End of the West?
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Well, the numbers are in and the numbers don't lie. At the Madrid aid conference, Saudi Arabia pledged $1 billion in new loans and credits for Iraq — and Germany and France pledged 0 new dollars. Add it all up and the bottom line becomes clear: Saudi Arabia actually cares more about nurturing democracy in Iraq than Germany and France.

Ah, you say, but that's unfair. Germany and France opposed the war, so why should they pay anything more than their share of the paltry E.U. contribution? Actually, it's not unfair, when you remember that before the war France and Germany were obsessed with the lifting of U.N. sanctions on Saddam's regime — in the name of easing the suffering of the Iraqi people.

Well, the U.S. has removed the whole Saddam regime, which was the real source of suffering for the Iraqi people, and yet that seems to be worth nothing to Germany and France. So there we have it: Pretending to ease the suffering of the Iraqi people — by calling for the removal of sanctions but keeping Saddam in power so he can buy lots of stuff from Germany and France — is priceless to them. But easing the suffering of the Iraqi people by removing Saddam's whole sick regime is worthless to them.

Ah, you say, but that's unfair. The leaders of France and Germany have a principled position. They honestly believe that democracy is not possible in Iraq or anywhere in the Arab world — and trying to deliver it will just make things worse. Now, that's an honest argument worthy of debate. But they never say that out loud — they simply complain at the U.N. that America has not transferred sovereignty to the Iraqi people more quickly. If their real concern was empowering Iraqis to run their own lives, wouldn't they be in there helping Iraqis get their act together faster?

What I'm getting at here is that when you find yourself in an argument with Europeans over Iraq, they try to present it as if we both want the same thing, but we just have different approaches. And had the Bush team not been so dishonest and unilateral, we could have worked together. I wish the Bush team had behaved differently, but that would not have been a cure-all — because if you look under the European position you see we have two different visions, not just tactical differences. Many Europeans really do believe that a dominant America is more threatening to global stability than Saddam's tyranny.

The more I hear this, the more I wonder whether we are witnessing something much larger than a passing storm over Iraq. Are we witnessing the beginning of the end of "the West" as we have known it — a coalition of U.S.-led, like-minded allies, bound by core shared values and strategic threats?

I am not alone in thinking this. Carl Bildt, the former Swedish prime minister, noted to me in Brussels the other day that for a generation Americans and Europeans shared the same date: 1945. A whole trans-Atlantic alliance flowed from that postwar shared commitment to democratic government, free markets and the necessity of deterring the Soviet Union. America saw the strength of Europe as part of its own front line and vice versa — and this bond "made the resolution of all other issues both necessary and possible," said Mr. Bildt.

Today, however, we are motivated by different dates. "Our defining date is now 1989 and yours is 2001," said Mr. Bildt. Every European prime minister wakes up in the morning thinking about how to share sovereignty, as Europe takes advantage of the collapse of communism to consolidate economically, politically and militarily into one big family. And the U.S. president wakes up thinking about where the next terror attack might come from and how to respond — most likely alone. "While we talk of peace, they talk of security," says Mr. Bildt. "While we talk of sharing sovereignty, they talk about exercising sovereign power. When we talk about a region, they talk about the world. No longer united primarily by a common threat, we have also failed to develop a common vision for where we want to go on many of the global issues confronting us."

Just as we once had U.S.-Soviet summits to ease the tensions of the cold war, maybe it's time for a U.S.-French-German summit to ease the tensions of the post-cold war. Leaders of all three nations have behaved badly and have weakened the West, even if they have not ended it. It's time to chart a new Atlantic alliance, but not one that is based on nostalgia for 1945 — one that really bridges the differences between 1989 and 2001.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/02/opinion/02FRIE.html

 
jaysit
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:51 am

What I found rather disturbing - and telling - from this incident was that the villagers near the crash site in Falujah were celebrating the chopper crash. Apparently few tried to assist the injured, but most were found with bits of chopper wreckage as celebratory momentoes.

So are we doomed to body bags returning from Iraq for our tenure there? Perhaps. This appears to be the reality behind Wolfowitz's intellectual theories about US involvement in the middle east.

The saddest thing was that the poor souls on that Chinook were being ferried back home for some much deserved R&R. What a tragedy !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
OO-AOG
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:05 am

Do not romanticize these monsters as some kind of 'freedom fighters

I do not intend to do so. I strongly believe that some of them are dangerous extremists with an IQ close to zero. But still, the US have nothing to do in Iraq, they shouldn't be there, a lot of countries told them not to go there, but you've decided to go there. Now you can't ask the locals to follow your rules, to believe and accept your views on how this country should be running, in fact you simply can't call them terrorists because those guys are fighting a war, just like you do.

And just face it, Bush was planning to get his hands on the Oil, at least get all the contracts. And that, believe me, whoever they are, Baathists, Shiites, Kurds, gays or taxi drivers ... they know it.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
DC10GUY
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:07 am

They don't want us there ... We shouldn't be there. Its Vietnam all over again. Just like Saddam said.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:25 am

Alpha 1:


I think you kind of misunderstood my post:


Then, left to you, there will never be peace in Iraq. The Iraqi's want to run the country, not ceede some of their soverignty to the U.S. or the U.N. You want a long, protracted struggle-then do what you suggest.


You misread what I was saying. I did not SUGGEST that we leave the US or UN in control of the country. I didnt suggest or recommend that course of action at all. What I said is that I do not believe George W. Bush when he says that the Iraqis will have their own government, which will be 100% controlled by them alone. I think that the USA and UK, if not the UN, will definitely keep a foot inside the government of Iraq for a long time.

I did not say that I agree with this. I didn't say I support it, nor did I suggest this course of action. I simply said that I believe this is what will happen, because I strongly doubt that the USA, UK, or UN will be willing to just leave Iraq to govern itself completely. And you're right, there will never be peace in Iraq if that happens.

Left to your thinking, we need to get our noses in about 3/4 of the worlds governments, because they're also corrupt. Do you want to do that? I don't. Leave Iraq for the Iraqi's. It's their country to do as they please.

Again, you misread what I wrote. I did not say, nor imply, that I felt we should govern the world. What I said and implied was that I do believe the current administration of the United States has that goal in mind. Not me. Not my suggestion. Frankly the thought of the USA going after every corrupt government in the world is frightening. If the USA wants to make the world hate it, that's a darn good way of doing it. The world doesnt take too kindly when a country sticks it's nose in everyone's business.

As such, my opinion is in agreement with yours. Not against. Please re-read what I wrote.


There's probably a few nuts embedded in there, who think warfare is their great destiny, but they're the small, small minority. Most wish the hell they were at home, making love to their wifes, husbands, girlfriends or boyfriends. The last place they want to be is a target in Iraq.


Agreed 100%


I'm sure on FOX, you'll get a much more positive vie wof the war.

I have an extremely low option of fox. They truly are, in my opinion, the "propaganda network". I avoid that channel at all costs. The only time I've seen it is in public places which, for some reason, seem to prefer having Fox News on the TVs or sports games rather than CNN or NBC.




Anyway, again, most of what I said was actually in agreement with the opinions you have just expressed to me. I apologize if what I wrote lead anyone to believe that I, personally, feel that the USA needs to be in everyone's business. I dont. I just happen to think our current administration, does.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:46 am

By the way, N79969, thanks for posting those two articles. I agree with them both, very much so in fact. Well written as well.  Smile
 
N79969
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:10 am

"And just face it, Bush was planning to get his hands on the Oil, at least get all the contracts."

Utter and complete nonsense. There is no truth or even rational logic to this at all.

If oil were our true motive, we would have followed Europe's lead and lifted the sanctions on Saddam's regime simply to screw with OPEC'S cartel pricing. That would have been far easier what the U.S. has undertaken.

[Edited 2003-11-03 02:12:59]

[Edited 2003-11-03 02:17:21]
 
OO-AOG
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:39 am

Utter and complete nonsense. There is no truth or even rational logic to this at all.

Complete nonsense?! no truth or even rational logic ?!?
Hmmm sure  Big thumbs up

If oil were our true motive, we would have followed Europe's lead and lifted the sanctions on Saddam's regime simply to screw with OPEC'S cartel pricing. That would have been far easier what the U.S. has undertaken.

You can put it that way, but if indeed the US has gone to war only because of the WMDs, then the resulting lack of it (still missing so far) has offered to the planet the most stupid and unjustified war ever (not to mention the total, and therefore historical, failure of US inteligency services).
No, really, N79969, I would keep the Oil in the story, otherwise 2 or 3 GIs are dying on a daily basis for absolutely nothing.
Have you notice that Bush is more "in the diplomatic way" rather than in the "bombing style" with North Korea ...  Innocent
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DC10GUY
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:42 am

Them why don't we invade N. Korea ??? What about all them African countries that have dictator's why aren't we invading them ??? Because they don't have any oil, that's why.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
Super Em
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:50 am

I believe this war was for geo political reasons,military bases,and a stronger influence and presence in the region. Also Saddam wanted to change to the Euro currency for the oil payments. A move that would be disasterous to the already weakened US economy. That pretty much sealed his fate. Oil might not have been the only reason but one would be naiive to believe it did not play a key role in this war. Bush cannot be blamed solely for this war. America has had their eye on the Middle East as a strategic region for a long time. Sooner or later this war would have happened. Bush just saw the environment was right and decided to go for it
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:52 am

Because North Korea has nukes and is insane enough to launch them at innocent japanese cities if we were to do anything they deem agressive. That's why.

 
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Aloha717200
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:53 am

The above post was directed at DC-10guy.
 
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RE: It's Getting Worse And Worse In Iraq

Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:57 am

This is indeed becoming another Vietnam. This time though, luckily, we support our troops and give them heroes welcomes back home.
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