b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:34 am

"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:42 am

Ah, yet another ignorant right-winger who thinks that people who are anti-Israel are anti-Semitic. The reality could not be further from the truth. It is perfectly possible to disagree with Israel's policies without being anti-Semitic.

Personally I agree with the poll, but with one qualification: "The Arab-Israeli conflict" is the biggest threat to world peace.

 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:06 am

"Israeli Ministers and spokesman have also been at pains recently to insist that a definition of modern 'anti-semitism' should include criticism of the way the state of Israel chooses to protect itself, defining that criticism as an overt attack on Israel's survival."

LOL!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:07 am

B757300, you live in such a black and white world. Simply opposing Israel on it's policies isn't anti-semitism, just as simply opposing Bush on his isn't ant-American, or unpatriotic. Some people have legitimate beefs with both. Living in such a black and white world may comfort you, son, but it denies reality.

Having said that, I think it's a load of garbage that Israel is the great threat to world peace. I think that moniker belongs with North Korea these days, not Israel.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:29 am

I don't know. You can bullshit all you want, and tell me that old Europe isn't anti-semetic, but when something like this comes out it says a lot. Israel? Are you kidding me? How about North Korea? How about the conflict between Pakistan and India? How about China? Or the recent crackdown on liberties in Russia?

First of all, I don't see how people could be 'anti-Israel?' I mean, their citizens suffer through a terrorist attack nearly every week. You may not want to call it anti-Semitism, but I think that the fact that Israel is a Jewish state does enter into a lot of people's minds when considering the situation.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:49 am

North Korea is a hermit kingdom that will eventually fall. India and Pakistan know that nuclear detente is the only way to survive, although both sides make big sounds whenever they need to galvanize local right wing elements. But I agree that the Israel-Palestine conflict is the most serious threat to world peace given the very volatile nature of the middle east and the US involvement there. If the Palestine conflict could be resolved, much of the anti-semitic and anti-US rhetoric and passions could be blunted in the Middle East. It is doubtful if Arab leaders in the Mid East want this to happen because anti-semitism and anti-US clap trap keep them in power. Add to this the fanaticism of the Israeli right wing and you have a horrible formula for the biggest threat to world peace.

Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:54 am

a few things come to my mind to satisfy your stereotype of the hating anti semite european:

- israel has not signed any wmd non proliferation treaty(unlike countries like iran)
- israel doesnot allow any neutral weapon inspectors check and verify their claims of having no more then/not having any wmds (just like the usa aswell, north korea is under 100x stricter IAEA control then the usa and israel toegether)
- the fact that in israel there is no obvious separation between government and religion, hence israel is about as democratic as iran (i think thats a pretty good comparison since both allow democractic elections within their religious frame)
- israel does not have a constitution based on human rights where everyone is genuinely treated and seen the same but is based on religious and racist ideas differentiating citizen rights based on religion and ethnicity
- israel targets civillian areas on a regular(almost daily) basis with its military with very doubtable outcome, defying any logic or sense for human rights
- israel executes an archaic system of executing known rivals and rebel leaders without proper trial
and these were the ones that came to my mind immediately. i am sure there are many more similar cases.
so why did i post all this?
i think that list shows that there is ample reason for people to be critical of the state of israel and its actions without being anti semite or whatever. it is simply that israel is conducting things in a way that are in many areas as bad as those of the axis of evil, and that it is just as medieval in its decisionmaking processes as countries outlawd as hell on earth by certain media.
10=2
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:37 am

It can be construed as anti-semitism when all the criticism is directed towards the Jewish state and not one word of it is given to the terrorists which are causing this conflict. The Jews have been oppressed for 2000 years, now they've had enough and are fighting back. The country of Israel has existed for barely 55 years and Europeans have the gall to think its the biggest thread to world peace? Well maybe you should tell me why they should let terrorists blast their civilians to bits on the corners of their major cities.

And Zak, your list has so many flaws in it, I will spend more time responding to your post when I have the time, I have to go to class.

NO URLS in signature
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:01 am

It can be construed as anti-semitism when all the criticism is directed towards the Jewish state and not one word of it is given to the terrorists which are causing this conflict.

Ah I see, the EU condemns Israel so it's automatically anti-semetic. Just because the EU doesn't kiss Israel's ass both with policy and money doesn't mean the EU is biased in the conflict. If you paid attention you'd see the condemnation of the Palestinian terrorists too.

The Jews have been oppressed for 2000 years, now they've had enough and are fighting back.

This is relevant how?

The country of Israel has existed for barely 55 years and Europeans have the gall to think its the biggest thread to world peace?

Obviously...

Its so nice to know that anti-Semitism is alive and well in Europe.

I could go out with a clipboard in parts of the US and get the same response.

I thought we took care of this problem almost 60 years ago but I guess we didn't.

Couple of "Peacekeepers" would solve the problem once and for all, wouldn't it B757300?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:21 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:10 am

Was it the country Israel or was it the current situation in Israel that was voted as a threat? There is a huge difference.

Staffan
 
DutchWings
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 11:30 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:19 am

It s true Israel is a threat, or better, mister Sharon. And people who say that 'this says a lot about old-Europe' really do not know what they are talking about. anti-Israel does NOT mean you are anti-Semitism. I think Bush is a bad president, does that make me anti-American??
I don't think so..
 
teva
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:23 am

For having been several times to Israel in the past 6 years, and having friends there, I know that the vast majority of the Israelis want peace.
By saying that, I am just anti-Bush and anti Sharon. Not anti American nor anti-Semitist.
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
david b.
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:18 pm

Sharon Threat To World Peace

Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:41 am

A better title would be above.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
teva
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:01 am

Here is an example of why it is difficult to find peace in this beautiful country, as long as people use the excuse of religion to fight:
The place of the Cene, Jesus last supper.
For the Jewish, it was a synagog. Then, the crusaders transformed the place in a church.
When the muslims took over the city, they transformed the church into a mosque.
This place is very small, and the 3 religions claim it. And it is one of the hundreds of examples in the old Jerusalem. As long as Israelis and Palestinians will claim Jerusalem as their capital, I see no solution.
Another example: the dormition church. It is shared by different groups of Christians. But they don't trust each other. That why for the last 400 or 500 years, the keys of this church have been to 2 Muslim families. And for the year 2000 celebration, the Israeli government has not been able to reopen the 2nd door (closed by a wall) Why? because nobody wanted to loose a single square centimeter inside the church. What is the most important? Loose centimeters, then prestige and power, or prevent accidents with large crowds of pilgrims, by having a second exit door?

As you can see, the situation there is not as simple as that.
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: Sharon Threat To World Peace

Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:43 am

It’s good to know that anti-Semitism is alive and well in the U.S. too.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:08 am

Before 9/11 I had a lot of sympathy for the Arabs ... Not anymore. I'm on the Jews side. The Jews know what we are only now realizing. I have a great deal of respect for Israel's military and the people of Israel. Some day we will all have to choose sides. I'll take Israel.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:11 am

So now if you're anti-Sharon, you're anti-Semitic as well?

Jesus H. Christ.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:58 am

Dc10guy,

Funny reply, talk about generalizations.
Just for the fun of it. Care to explain the difference between both 'sides'  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
david b.
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:18 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:06 am


HAHA LOL  Big thumbs up

Lovely response B757300  Nuts

[Edited 2003-11-03 22:08:21]
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Guest

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:10 am

Here is an important quote from the Guardian article:

"The results appear to be a mark of the widespread disapproval in Europe of the tactics employed by the government of Ariel Sharon during the present intifada."

Remember that it was the Sharon government that unilateraly bombed Syria a few weeks ago. That certainly didn't contribute to regional peace and stability. North Korea, on the other hand, is much farther away from Europe and less likely to affect it directly, hence its lower ranking.

And, if I understand it correctly, the Palestinian Authority was not one of the options given in this poll. If it were there, most Europeans would probably name it as a huge threat to world peace as well. Would that somehow mean that Europeans are anti-Arab?  Yeah sure

Tbar220 wrote:

"The Jews have been oppressed for 2000 years, now they've had enough and are fighting back."

But precisely because Jews have been opressed for 2000 years, they should realize that Israel's treatment of Palestnians is wrong. In fact, many ordinary Israelis already do.

"It can be construed as anti-semitism when all the criticism is directed towards the Jewish state and not one word of it is given to the terrorists which are causing this conflict."

Europe has repeatedly condemned terrorism in Israel. The terrorists' unconscionable behavior, however, does not excuse Israel's destructive policies. Two wrongs simply don't make a right. Unlike the Palestnian authority, Israel claims to be a responsible democracy. Sharon needs to be reminded of that fact.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:19 am

It can be construed as anti-semitism when all the criticism is directed towards the Jewish state and not one word of it is given to the terrorists which are causing this conflict.

I agree with this statement entirely.

I have a lot of issues with Israel. Many of the things they have done or are doing are incredibly stupid, and some even criminal. But I find it so amazing that Israel is the one that gets all the blame from most international institutions like the U.N.. Palestinian terrorists have been blowing up planes and setting off bombs for decades, and nobody seems to mind.

As long as this imbalance exists, Israel has some justification for thumbing its nose at the international community, such as over the Wall resolution the other week. If people start remembering to criticize both fairly, such justification would largely disappear.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:23 am

Wow, Manni if you don't know the difference you shouldn't be in this debate.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:24 am

I agree with this poll 100%.
Israel is responsible for a lot of problems in the Middle-East. If we didn't need oil from the Middle-East, we could just say to hell with the entire region including Israel.

Bring back the Concorde
 
Marcus
Posts: 1666
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 5:08 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:14 am

And this is the response..............

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3237277.stm
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
copaair737
Posts: 3571
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:00 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:19 am

I agree with you Superfly. If not for the oil, the US wouldnt be there. Also, why would it be anti-semetic to not like Sharon? The arabs get killed alot in israel too, but you dont hear about it as much because the media is controlled by the jews. im not trying to sound racist or anything, but its the truth.
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:24 am

Copaair737:
If I were Jewish, I'd be ashamed and emberassed over Ariel Sharon. He is evil and shouldn't be in any position of power. Sharon, George W Bush, Saddam Hussien and Kim Jong Il should be sent on a one way ticket to hell.
The world doesn't need people like them at all.

[Edited 2003-11-04 00:30:04]
Bring back the Concorde
 
copaair737
Posts: 3571
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:00 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:28 am

Superfly: I agree, with you about the world leaders part. The one that would need to be gotten rid of first would have to be George W. Bush though  Smile/happy/getting dizzy The others would have to wait.
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:42 am

I don't know. You can bullshit all you want, and tell me that old Europe isn't anti-semetic

Jcs, "Old America" is just as anti-semitic as anyone on the face of the earth. We have no room to talk.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:54 pm

Dc10guy,

The question is not wether I know the difference, the question is if you know it. Because, judging by your contribution to this topic, you don't. It's just about chosing sides isn't it? Or did you 6 year old nephew craked your password?
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:20 pm

What a BS. Israel's government can do whatever it wants, it doesn't care about the UN, UN resolutions, it doesn't care about human rights...and just because most Europeans don't like what Israel's government is doing, does that mean they are anti-semitic?
People who claim that are either dumb like shit, brainwashed..or they know well what they are saying. Because using the anti-semitic argument against their opponents or any kind of criticism is easier than justify doubtful actions or bring up logic arguments. Facing the accusation of being anti-semitic for just criticising Israel's government only causes a long and relaxed  Yawn with me...


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
ussherd
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 8:01 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:59 pm

I do think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a serious threat to lasting world peace. Any major escalation of the conflict could spread beyond the Middle East to involve the EU, the US and possibly the Islamic nations of Asia. I don’t think that a reasoned criticism of Israeli policy could be called anti-Semitism and I don’t think that Israel can demand the right to defend itself as it sees fit without being criticised if in doing so it contravenes international conventions on human rights, etc, etc. That’s a luxury that is not accorded to any country (or shouldn’t be). If its true that the EU is biased against Israel, it’s equally true that the US is biased in favour of Israel, so perhaps it would be a good idea for both sides to be involved in any negotiations? In my opinion, the result of this poll is a reaction against Israeli policies and not an expression of anti-Semitism.

I think there are a number of reasons why the EU is less pro-Israel than the US. First of all, we don’t have a strong pro-Israel lobby, as is the case in Washington. Also, religion has a lesser part to play in the lives of most Western Europeans than it does in the lives of most Americans and this translates into the more liberal views prevalent in the EU towards a viriety of issues. This fact is also reflected in the attitude of many Europeans towards Israel. Most Europeans think of Israel as just another country and don’t subscribe to the idea that the state of Israel exists by divine right. For example, if the state of Israel were to be created today, the right of the Jewish people to have a nation of their own would probably be placed on a par with the right of the Kurdish people to have their own homeland. Many Europeans are also not comfortable with the idea of Israel as a Jewish state where non-Jews are second-class citizens (that’s the perception – I don’t know if it’s really the case) and are denied their basic human rights. No one can deny that Israel has had to fight for it’s very existence from day one and those of us who have lived our daily lives in the shadow of terrorism can understand why Israel has adopted it’s current policies. However, I think that more is expected from Israel than from the Palestinian Authority. Israel is a democracy and people expect Israel to act as one. I do agree that the media in Europe can often be biased towards the Palestinian side and portrays Israel as the aggressor. This is completely unjustified as Israel is clearly defending itself against a very real terrorist threat. Their response may not be the most appropriate and their policies may sometimes be unwise, but they are a reaction to the reality that the Israeli people have to face. Also, the media isn’t always biased… I recently saw a BBC documentary that was made just after the worst of the intefada. The documentary was very critical of Israel’s actions but was equally critical of the Palestinian Authority. Like most things, there are two sides to this conflict.

Another thing, what's with the references to Old Europe? This is a term that seems to be used almost exclusively by Americans and in a rather derogatory way. The countries of EU have been the allies of the US for a long time and while we may differ in the detail, we share the basic values of democracy. If Israel can't expect to execute its policies without incurring criticism from countries that see things differently, neither can the US, nor the EU for that matter. The emerging democracies of Eastern Europe are still more or less unknown quantities, and in any case, will in all probability be absorbed into the so-called Old Europe as the EU expands eastwards.

Cada loco con su tema...
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:21 pm

This is ridiculous. Of course Israel is a threat to the world peace, as well as the Palestinians terrorists organisations. When Israel will stop to treat Palestinians as if they were foreigners in their own territories it will probably stop all.
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:40 pm

When Israel will stop to treat Palestinians as if they were foreigners in their own territories it will probably stop all.
Sebolino, wrong!!! It won't stop until Israel is eradicated. Get a clue.
"Shaddap you!"
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:03 am

You are also wrong, Jetservice. It's true some terrorists will never accept Israel...but if the majority of Palestinians is able to exist as an own nation on their own soil, then the widespread support for terrorist groups in Palestine will drastically decrease.
Unfortunately, Israel's government does everything to cause the opposite - they almost force the Palestinians to turn to the extremists - they give them at least the perspective to go to heaven - against a life without any perspective. Every military strike against civilians creates more suicide bombers. And every time the US back Israel's illegal actions, worldwide terrorists will find more feed for their propaganda and their hate. Is it so difficult to realize that vicious circle?

Btw, one could also get to the opposite statement: It won't stop as long as some ultra right Israelis deny the Palestinians' right of existence.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:33 am

You are also wrong, Jetservice. It's true some terrorists will never accept Israel...but if the majority of Palestinians is able to exist as an own nation on their own soil, then the widespread support for terrorist groups in Palestine will drastically decrease.

Then why is it the closer the prospect of agreements get to realization, the more suicide attacks seem to get stepped up? I'm sorry, but I think the 'Israel Must Die' crowd trumps the rest. Attacks get worse as they near anything resembling peace. IMO, they are the biggest problem.
"Shaddap you!"
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:47 am

That's an easy question. Because the extremists want to avoid any kind of peace - they know well that the Palestinian people would soon turn away from them when they get the real perspective of an own state. The extremists are the ones to lose their ideals and their power by the creation of an independant Palestine. And therefore they strike even harder when agreements are close to realization.

It sounds odd, but the best way to fight terrorists in Israel (and only in that special case) is to ignore them - and not to do what they want. They want to provoke Israel, and every military actions Israel does will bring them more new suicide bombers.

It does indeed seem unlogic not to strike back after an attack - but it's the only way to get out of the vicious circle. Since extremists won't stop, it should be the Israeli side to realize the solution. The problem is that there are extremists on the Israeli side, too...


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:53 am

That's an easy question. Because the extremists want to avoid any kind of peace - they know well that the Palestinian people would soon turn away from them when they get the real perspective of an own state. The extremists are the ones to lose their ideals and their power by the creation of an independant Palestine. And therefore they strike even harder when agreements are close to realization.

I knew the answer to that question, that's why I asked you if you knew because you said above that the attacks will stop when Israel gives in to the Palestinians. But your last message seems to contradict your prior. As I said (and now you said) the attacks WON'T stop; in fact they'll get worse.
"Shaddap you!"
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:04 am

It's not necessarily a contradiction. I guess Israel can control its own extremists better than on the opposite side. So there would be some hope.
And the attacks may not stop immediately after the creation of an own state. I only said the support for terrorists would decrease. It still would be a long hard way until extremists could be isolated.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:08 am

But I don't think anyone will ever let them have their state as long as they're bombing; even though it seems most think they should have it.
"Shaddap you!"
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:19 am

Well, if the minority of terrorists will always get the attention they want, then we will never achieve peace.


Regards
udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:53 am

I guess Israel can control its own extremists better than on the opposite side. So there would be some hope.
******

Israels extremists and there extreme views do not tie bombs to themselves on a weekly basis and walk into Childrens parties to detonate them. There are extremists here in America with their warped views, god know, I live in Texas... I see it, but they are not out blowing up innocent people weekly

Jeremy
 
emiratesa345
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 10:11 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:04 am

"Ah, yet another ignorant right-winger who thinks that people who are anti-Israel are anti-Semitic. The reality could not be further from the truth. It is perfectly possible to disagree with Israel's policies without being anti-Semitic."

Very well said.

It doesn't mean that Europeans don't like Jews, it simply means that they feel that the reason we don't have world peace is because of Israel. Which is true.

EmiratesA345  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:08 am

If I'm going to pick an extremist, I'll pick the Jews. At least they are on our side. Besides the Israelis can kick anyone's ass.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6058
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:21 am

Dc10guy,
especially with the nuclear weapons they claim they don't have.

Did anyone read the statement from an Israeli military officer, that was published a short while ago. He basically said that as long as Sharon's government continued to suppress the Palestinians, the more frustrated the Palestinians would become. And the more frustrated they become, the more likely are they to join an extremist group.
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:27 am

Its so nice to know that anti-Semitism is alive and well in Europe.

Yeah, and Napoleon is still alive and kicking  Insane
 
sr117
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 2:00 am

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:33 am

CPH-R: Hey I saw that statement too ! it was on the yahoo frontpage a few days ago, shame it didn't get more attention, it's quite true really, Palestinians don't need hatemongers to indoctrinate them into hating Israel... Israeli policies are more than enough to make anyone angry, life in the west bank and gaza is simply being choked, it's only natural that this situation shall only help to cultivate extreme positions.

Just as there are extremists on both sides, there are also level minded people on both sides of the fence, this officer is certainly one of them, nobody wants terrorism but with the current positions it seems unlikeley that any other outcome will result.
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:37 am

Two things:

Many Europeans are also not comfortable with the idea of Israel as a Jewish state where non-Jews are second-class citizens (that’s the perception – I don’t know if it’s really the case) and are denied their basic human rights.

Since you said you didnt know, I'll clarify. Non-Jews are NOT second class citizens in Israel. The only difference that Jews and non-Jews have in the state of Israel is that Jews can be granted immediate citizenship, and Jews in Israel are required to serve in the army. Non Jews can still apply for and recieve citizenship, but they are not required to serve in the army, although they can on a volunteer (paid) basis.

For example, the Arab's in Haifa are equal citizens with the Jews there. They have voting rights, Arab political parties that represent them in the Knesset, Israeli passports, etc. They work and live in the same areas as Jews and have equal protection under the law.

Another population called the Druze living in Israel, whose culture and language is Arab and Arabic respectivley, but who have separated themselves from mainstream Arab nationalism. They are fiercely proud of their connection to Israel, served in the Haganah (Israeli Defense force in 1948) during the war of independence, and still have units in the IDF. There are some 104,000 Druze living in Israel.

A group from Turkey and the Balkans called the Circassians have a population of around 3000 living in Israel. "Circassians serve in the [Israeli] army and employed in the border and regular police force. Municipal and public services are wide open to the Circassians. The Circassian Law (Khabza) regulates the conduct of the Circassians and settles all matters among themselves."
http://www.kafkas.org.tr/english/DIASPORA/israil.html

I will find more examples when I have time and when I can think of more. But I think the above is proof enough that Israel is a free democracy for both Jews and non-Jews, where equal protection of the law applies and equal rights are given to all.

Secondly:

People like to equate the Israeli "extremists" with the Palestinian terrorists. There are people with radical views on both sides, but the astonishing difference is (yes, there is a difference) that the Israeli radicals do not go out and target Palestinian civilians for massacres. The Palestinian extremist tactics consist of suicide bombings, car bombs, bus bombs, roadside shootings, residential infiltrations, etc. all designed to maximize the deaths of innocent civilians, civilians which are the targets.

Every country has its "extremists" with their radical views, but its an alarming trend at how the Palestinian extremists turn to ultra-violent tactics to get their view across. Its equally alarming how widespread the support is for these violent tactics against Israeli civilians among the Palestinian populace. (If you'd like, I cant present a strong argument for my last point).
NO URLS in signature
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:40 am

Dc10guy,

Yes, the Israelis can kick anyone's ass, and the US can kick anyone's ass...wow! The only problem is some extremists don't care about that and blow themselves up on a daily basis, in Israel or in Iraq...so what does military superiority help in such cases? NOTHING.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Guest

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:57 am

Dc10guy wrote:

"If I'm going to pick an extremist, I'll pick the Jews. At least they are on our side."

The more accurate statement would be that we are on their side, despite everything Sharon has done. Until we follow Europe's lead and establish a more objective view of the entire situation -- rather than supporting one side -- it is going to be incredibly hard for us to help achieve peace in the region. As I have previously said, we need to support Israel's right to exist -- but that's where our support should stop. If Sharon keeps snubbing the international community and, sometimes, the US, we should consistently snub him and his extremist policies, sending a message to Israel that such behavior is simply unacceptable.

In this case, Europe's attitude to the situation is both healthier and more realistic. Those who cry "anti-Semitism" when they encounter views that dare to deviate from their ideology are simply trying to shift the focus of this debate through baseless name-calling. It's immature, inaccurate, and contributes nothing to this debate.

[Edited 2003-11-04 23:03:32]
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3256
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

RE: EU Poll: Great Threat To World Peace Is Israel

Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:23 am

Let's see if I can become "anti-human" in 5 lines:

1) I disagree with some of Israels policies, making me anti-semitic.
2) I disagree with the pope's opinion on contrasceptives (sp?), making me anti-christian.
3) I disagree on some of the rules of Sharia law, making me anti-islamic.
4) I disagree with some of the US's foreign policies, making me anti-American.
5) I find the 3-gorges-dam project a bad idea, making me anti-chinese.

Alright, I did not become "anti-human" in 5 lines, but I came damn close! These lines should have taken care of 80% of humanity?

If this does not prove that anti-"name your government" is not anti-"name your country/religion", then I don't know what will prove it.
Attamottamotta!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aerlingus747, tommy1808 and 28 guests