Alpha 1
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Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:44 pm

ABC News ran a two-hour special Thursday night, called "The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Consipracy."

It was, basically, a two-hour attempt to convince Americans that JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald, and that Oswald acted totally alone. They used computer graphics that say "prove" Oswald shot JFK, and they basically belittled anyone who didn't agree with that conclusion.

A few "highlight" from the show:

-They used computer graphics, that say positively conclude that JFK and Connolly were shot by the same bullet that originally injured JFK.

-The fatal heatshot, they say was from the rear. They used angle analysis to prove this. As far as JFK being lifted up and backward on the fatal shot, all they say is that "sometimes a victim is pushed forward when shot, sometimes, backward." That's not very convincing.

-Even though the Senate Select Committee on Assassinations that met in the 70's said it believed there was enough evidence to believe the existence of conspiracy, the ABC special basically hangs its hat on the original Warren Commission report, which, by ABC's own admission, had many flaws.

It was an interesting show. It brought up some interesting points, no doubt, but they did not convince me that Oswald acted entirely alone, or that he was the only shooter. I watch the fatal headshot in the Zaprude film, and I'm still convinced, seeing JFK almost thrown out the back of the car, that the fatal shot came from the front.

Sadly, the American media has always attacked anyone or anything that doesn't believe that Oswald acted alone, and that continued last night. This report made me think, but did not change my mind that Oswald did not act alone, and that someone else fired the fatal shot.
 
VectorVictor
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:42 pm

I watched it as well. A few things struck me as odd or interesting.

1) ODD: Lee H. Oswald was not exactly an unknown prior to Novemeber '63. I was amazed how many photos and the New Orleans TV station video existed of him.

2) ODD: The fateful decision by authorities in Dallas to allow the media to film Oswald being transfered to another facility. What a blunder. Something that would almost be inconcievable today. So many secrets went to the grave at 11:23 a.m. CST Novemeber 24, 1963.

3) INTERESTING: From another documentary earlier in the week about the media's coverage of this sad day was the how many young, cub reporters on hand are todays pre-eminent news anchors and reporters. Bob Scheifer, Peter Jennings, Robin McNeil, Jim Lehrer, Dan Rather and others. Walter Cronkite doesn't age, either.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:45 pm

Dan Rather first made his name covering the Kennedy Assassination. He was the New Orleans Bureau chief for CBS in 1963, and was in Dallas covering what was a big visit by Kennedy, as there was a rift within the Democratic party in Texas. Rather was really the only CBS asset in place, and after that, his career took off.
 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:19 am

I watched an interesting interview with Lee Harvey Oswald's brother (can't remember the exact TV show) who remains entirely convinced that LHO acted alone and was capable of pulling it off by himeself. Yesterday, Jack Valente was on the Don Imus show (he was towards the real of the Dallas motorcade) and mirrors the opinion, but Texas Gov. John Connelly's wife was on Imus this morning and swears that there were three shots. Her currently-being-released book should make a good read. Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:01 am

Taped both ABC's special, and a PBS special "JFK: Breaking the News" that aired right before it. Haven't watched either one all the way through yet (will do this weekend, was watching Survivor and CSI on another TV), but did catch enough of the ABC special during breaks to catch their drift.

I, too, have the belief that there was a shooter on the grassy knoll, and that the head shot came from that general area. I have a book that was published in the mid 70's that shows pictures outlining a shooting-type figure on the knoll, also a figure wearing LHO's clothing in the first floor doorway of the Depository. The Zapruder film is also reviewed. The other compelling thing to me are the actions of the infamous "Umbrella Man".

For those who haven't been to Dealey Plaza (and through the Sixth Floor Museum), it is quite a compelling place. If you take the time to walk the sidewalks, up the grassy knoll, into the museum, and view all the possible angles, things (at least to me) become quite clear.

Tom at MSY
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ybacpa
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:15 am

(I will admit beforehand that I didn't see the ending, so please feel free to correct me if this was covered later in the program.)

I watched most of it, and the biggest problem I had with it is it was clearly 100% one-sided. Granted it was trying to prove the lone gunman theory, but due diligence in a case like this requires plausable, or at least popular, alternative theories to be disproven. I didn't see any attempt to disproved the grassy knoll shooter, the sewer shooter, etc. With the fancy computer graphics simulations, I would have expected a showing of how these theories could not be true just as they showed why they felt the shots came soley from the book depository. Barring that, its nothing but one-sided propaganda.

Just my $.02
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jaysit
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:21 am

What I found rather hard to believe was that Jack Ruby killed Oswald because of his purported adoration for Kennedy. Ruby appears to be the strangest cookie in the whole saga, and the ABC Special didn't really put to rest his involvement.

Btw, for fans of presidential history, the JFK museum in Boston is a wonderful place to take in those Kennedy years. I've been there numerous times and each time you learn something new. Admittedly, some of the displays tend to be mundane but the archives boast some pretty incredible letters and reports.
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:16 am

What I found rather hard to believe was that Jack Ruby killed Oswald because of his purported adoration for Kennedy. Ruby appears to be the strangest cookie in the whole saga, and the ABC Special didn't really put to rest his involvement.

Ruby was already diagnosed with terminal cancer when he shot Oswald. So if you believe in conspiracies, he could have agreed to a handsome payoff to benefit his family by the mob to kill Oswald even though he would be arrested for it. He had nothing to lose and much to gain, monetarily anyway.

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backfire
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:55 am

I've said this before when this tiresome subject came up a few weeks ago - the only people who believe there was a conspiracy in the JFK shooting are those who don't want to do the donkey-work of going through the evidence themselves and would rather jump on the bandwagon of theories based on half-truths and misunderstandings.

The above statement about Kennedy's head being thrown back in the car is a classic example of how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and lead you to an incorrect conclusion.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 9:22 am

Backfire, stop being so condescending to those of us who simply DO NOT believe Oswald acted alone! For God's sake, you don't know either.

I was talking with my wife today about the ABC show, and I thought it through a little bit. I think the one thing that I came away convinced about is that Oswald DID fire at least one or two shots. The evidence that Connolly was not sitting at the same height at Kennedy, and that he was seating something like 6 to ten inches further inside the care than JFK, along with the computerized trajectory of the shot that originally wounded both men comes exactly from the spot Oswald was in, is undeniable.

What I am NOT convinced of is that the shot that fatally wounded Kennedy came from Oswald. Remember, Kennedy was falling forward after the first show, and in towards Jackie-you can see that in the Zapruder film clearly. She's even reaching out to assist him. The head shot drives him backward and to the left-I'm sorry but a man already leaning forward and to the right is NOT going to be driven back and to the left-a shot from behind with a high-powered rifle is going to drive a man already falling forward to the left further forward, because that's where his 'mo is taking him. I still feel the third shot came from in front and to the right of Kennedy-from behind and to the right of Abraham Zapruder.

I also come back to Oswald's murder. It was a hit, and I always have believed that. The ABC show interviewed someone that said if Oswald was hit to silence him, why wasn't Ruby? Perhaps Ruby was told only that he was to kill Lee Harvey Oswald, and knew nothing of the rest of the conspiracy, so that he WOULDN'T know anything? It's possible.

In any case, Backfire, that's what I believe-after watching lots of different shows, movies, and specials on the even. I believe Oswald fired the wounding shots; I do not believe he fired the shot that killed our 35th President.
 
L-188
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:17 pm

Backfire, I have shot enough animals in my life to know what direction a head will travel when hit by a 6.5 mm projectile traveling at a couple thousand feet per second. The head shot came from the front.

There was a shipment of Carcano's that came into the US a couple of years ago that I was thinking about ordering but never did. I kind of wish I had now so I would be able to comment more on how the bolt functions, but I understand that it was very clunky.

In fact in WWII the Russians where refurbishing captured Mausers from the Germans and putting them into long term storage, I have one. The Carcanos that where captured from the Italian troops by the Russians where melted down. I think that says something about the functionality and quality of the weapon.

In any case it helps validate that comment that was made in the movie "JFK" that the Carcano was, "The Worlds Worst Shoulder Weapon"


Again it gets back to the point, Could Oswald do the shooting job he allegedly did from the book depository.

I didn't see the ABC special but they had a two night series about the Kennedy family on PBS. Didn't go into the assassination much but was interesting nether-less.


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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:43 pm

There was a witness who worked near the railways who said that just before the shooting he saw a couple of men standing behind the stockade fence with their car parked there. After the shooting he said he saw smoke(gunsmoke?) coming from the area of the stockade fence. And i concur with L-188, a shot from behind is not going to throw the president's head back, rather it should go forward.
 
backfire
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 9:18 pm

We're not talking about shooting animals here. We're talking about ballistics affecting a target in a moving car during an already-dynamic situation - that's not something you can address with schoolboy physics. As to the repetitive nonsense which is spoken about the rifle and Oswald's abilities, the weapon was good enough to do the job, and Oswald was a better shot than the conspiracy nerds give him credit for.

I wonder how many have seen 'JFK' and not bothered to read Jim Garrison's own book on which it was based - and then not even bothered to read the medical testimony which answers a stackload of questions about the injuries.

The spread of conspiracy theories is the greatest injustice that could have followed Kennedy's assassination. Instead of blaming the person responsible, gullible people would rather believe in fantasy and myth. But then, that's more exciting than the mundane truth.

I suppose Oswald didn't murder a policeman on the same day, either?

[Edited 2003-11-22 13:27:52]
 
L-188
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 9:57 pm

Some how I doubt Kennedy was effected more by the movement of the car which was at tops what? 15 FPS vs. an 1800 fps bullet.

Besides Why did Oswald pass up an excellent shot comming down that other street to take a marginal shot through a tree on Dealy?

Makes no sense.
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L-188
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 10:00 pm

Instead of blaming the person responsible, gullible people would rather believe in fantasy and myth.

Gullible people......That would be the Warren Commission?
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727LOVER
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:22 am

My question is....WHERE ARE THE MISSING BULLETS?

They found 3 shell casings on the 6th floor building, so Oswald definately fired 3 times. If the fatal shot came from the grasy knoll, then that means Oswald had 2 shots that missed. So where did these bullets go? I have a hard time believing they were never found.

And what about all the witnesses? I'm sure they were interviewed by investigators and media alike. Was there a consensus from witnesses on how many shots they heard?



Here's something I heard this week that stunned me. Apparently in 1963, killing the President of the United States was NOT a federal crime. Originally, while the FBI was assisting, the lead investigators were the Dallas police dept. If Oswald had been tried, I assume it would have only been state mureder charges.--AMAZING!
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backfire
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 5:01 am

Sorry L-188 but your reasoning comes straight from Oliver Stone.

You talk about speeds of the car/bullet and ignore the crucial aspect - momentum - which is governed as much by mass as velocity. Besides, the reaction of the human body to a bullet is not predictable - a bullet creates pressure waves, fragmentation, supersonic shocks.

The entry wound to Kennedy's head was from the rear - that's a fact: check the medical evidence yourself. It clipped the top-right of his skull, blasting the upper-right section outwards. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the dynamic reaction would have thrown his head leftwards (as clearly backed up by the film footage).

Incidentally - to further demonstrate that he was hit from the rear - the first bullet that entered Kennedy went into his back and exited his throat. The throat exit wound was not spotted because Kennedy underwent a tracheotomy to help him breathe and the connection between the two events not made.

This shot, of course, was made by the "magic bullet" - which was nothing of the sort. The Carcano rifle was a military weapon and the bullet carried a full-metal jacket (in accordance with Geneva Convention regulations which insist that bullets be made to pass through flesh and not break up). The bullet did not hit bone but passed through Kennedy and hit Governor Connally in front.

Popular myth (and Oliver Stone, of course) says that the bullet was "pristine" - not true. It was damaged because it hit Connally's ribs.

Oh, and why didn't Oswald pick the easiest shot? Because he wasn't a trained assassin. The fact that he apparently picked a more-difficult position lends weight to the assassination being the work of an amateur and not some high-level organisation. Evidence for the prosecution, not the defence.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:18 am

Sorry L-188 but your reasoning comes straight from Oliver Stone.

Actually, it's coming from someone, in this instance, who is thinking for himself, and not just believing what the Warren Commission put out. There's just too many unanswered questions to believe Lee Harvey acted alone.

Besides, the reaction of the human body to a bullet is not predictable - a bullet creates pressure waves, fragmentation, supersonic shocks.

Bull. I don't buy that at all. A body already leaning forward and to the left is NOT going to go BACK and to the left from a gunshot wound from behind. That's simple physics. That bullet is traveling at such a speed that the only direction for that body to fall is further forward and to the left. And, again, if you look at Zapruder, he's lifted up and driven back and to the left. Maybe you can't see that for yourself, and come to a logical conclusion, but most Americans seemingly can. There is no way in hell that headshot came from behind. None.

The entry wound to Kennedy's head was from the rear - that's a fact:

No, it's not. The attending physicians in Dallas, to this day, say the wound was in the front ,and the exit wound in the back. I've seen a picture of JFK's face on a table in Dallas-the entire front of his head, all the way to the forehead is intact. The huge wound is in the back of the head, not the front, which signifys the bullet exited from the rear. There was a big area of his head mssing in the rear, not in the front. That indicates a shot coming from the front, not the rear.

Again, you cling to this discredited belief for some reason? Why? Why do you get so damned upset that people don't buy what Warren said? We don't know all the fact, but the fact we do know point to more than one shooter. Oswald wounded Kennedy and Connolly. I will never believe that he fired the fatal shot. The evidence points against that.
 
backfire
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:25 am

Sorry Alpha1 but again, you're pushing the same incorrect simplifications which created the conspiracy theories in the first place. My background is in physics, I used to study ballistics and I was a full-bore weapons instructutor, so I think I can at least claim a small bit of knowledge about bullets. No, I'm not a medical examiner. But the head-shot medical evidence is pretty clear to anyone who goes and reads the files - and I don't mean the half-baked autopsy notes. In short, I don't have to repeat myself. Nor am I going to suggest you take my word, because I don't have to - go read the evidence for yourself. It's there for anyone who genuinely wants to know the truth.

[Edited 2003-11-22 23:30:28]
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:27 am

I've looked over evidence for years, Backfire. Again, I believe Oswald fired the wounding shot, but watching JFK fly almost out of the back of that limo, there's no way in hell I'll ever believe Oswald fired the fatal shot. Common sense dictates against that.
 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:16 am

I suppose Oswald didn't murder a policeman on the same day, either?

There has never been 100% evidence that Oswald murdered officer Tippitt. There were several witnesses who claim that the man who shot officer Tippitt was not Oswald. Plus Officer Tippitt was not in his assigned area at the time of his death- he was a few blocks away from where he was supposed to be. I don't believe Oswald shot the policeman.

 
Alpha 1
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:21 am

From what I've read over the years, many witnesses say the man that shot and killed Officer Tippet was taller and a larger man than Oswald. And there has always been speculation that Oswald could get from Dealy Plaza to where Officer Tippet was murdered.

But don't tell Backfire that-we're all just being delusional.  Smile
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:37 pm

I am only 20, so I wasn't around in 1963 and everything I've heard and truly understand about the assassination is from the last three years. I am pretty opinionated on just about everything, but this is one issue I am deadlocked on. I just have no clue as to what I believe. There are aspects of both arguements (single gunman & conspiracy) that I believe and I have issue with, all at the same time. For example, the single bullet/gunman theory gets me because on all the audio pieces I've heard on the assassination I distinctly hear three shots and am almost positive I hear a fourth on some tapes. The comnspiracy theory, however, just baffles me because of the magnitude it would have to be. I dunno, I go back and forth.

Here's the real question, does anyone here believe that in the next, say thirty years, we have an answer? A conclusive answer?
 
L-188
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:45 pm

Well Backfire, I respect your credentials but the lab sometimes has a funnly lack of relation to the real world.

I still have a very hard time believing that Kennedy would have moved the way he did from the angle that Lee apparently shot him from.

Like I said I in a way wish I had jump on the bandwagon and ordered one of those Carcanos just for the experience of shooting one for comparison.
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L-188
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:47 pm

Actually, it's coming from someone, in this instance, who is thinking for himself

In this Instance?

I appreciate the help Alpha but believe it or not there are lots of people that don't feel it is appropriate to lynch that republican party that think for ourselves.
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Alpha 1
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:49 pm

I don't think we'll ever know for sure. One arguement those who believe in one shooter have is that a conspiracy would have leaked after all this time. Perhaps they are right. A single gunman has murdered many a leader of ther centuries, and it is possible. But in such a terrible undertaking, a low of omerta surely could have permeated anyone involved with an alleged assassination of the most powerful man in the world. Who knows? Surely none of us.

What I do know is that the US has, in some respect, never recovered from, for lack of a better word, such a loss of innocence so suddenly conferred upon them. JFK had faults, no doubt, but he embodied, truly, "a new generation of Americans , born in that century, tested by war, tempered by a hard and bitter peace." He embodied a can-do spirit that made the U.S. feel young and vigerous again. When he was cut down, it forever cut the American soul, and put into it a wound that would only scar, and never heal.

We were left with a boquet of flowers in a pool of blood, and
to ponder "what if" through out the rest of the 60's, and into the 70's. We can only guess how different our country and the world would have been had he lived and been granted another term. It's unknown, and that may be the most elusive, frustrating thing to ponder for Americans, in the wake of the turbulence that followed for the next decade.

RIP, JFK.
 
cicadajet
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:06 pm

There was another show on TV earlier this week.. on The History Channel or A&E, I forget which. It was called "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". It was actually a repeat and is several years old I believe.

Interesting stuff...on some points I was skeptical of the conspiracy theory, however, that show covered a good deal of ground and made an interesting case for a conspiracy which I do not rule out at all.

Did anyone see that one?
 
L-188
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 5:55 pm

For those of you who have a lot of time on you hands, the Warren Commision report is available online.

http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/warren_commission/warren_commission_report.html
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backfire
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:12 pm

...many witnesses say...

There were several witnesses...


You both know that eye-witnesses (especially those who see a fast-moving and unexpected event) are among the least-reliable sources of information.

Just listen to a dozen witnesses to a car accident. You wouldn't believe how people can disagree on even the most basic information - never mind the fine detail.

Look at the number of people who "saw" a missile shoot down TWA800. It no longer matters that there's no evidence for a shootdown - the "witnesses" have managed to catapult another simple, explainable event into conspiracy legend.

What irritates me is that conspiracy fans are prepared to put faith into shadowy, unreliable, tentative "witness" reports yet completely ignore the solid evidence - the lack of missile parts on TWA800, the rifle in the depository, the X-rays of JFK's skull.

Investigators can't win. If they present clear evidence, it's dismissed as being planted or part of the plot. If they play down unreliable evidence, they're accused of not being thorough.

My personal opinion is that people are afraid of the truth.

Can't wait for Michael Jackson to go on trial. There are already people queueing up to declare him innocent/guilty before a word of evidence has been heard...that's how conspiracies start.
 
backfire
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 8:19 pm

Those of you who'd like more proof of the unpredictability of bullets (all on film) and a lot of other debunking information on the main myths surrounding the JFK assassination might like to look here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm


Just a taster - this question put to Duncan MacPherson, leading authority on ballistics wounds and author of Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting From Wound Trauma

Question: It is common knowledge that, as captured by Abraham Zapruder, President Kennedy's head and upper torso lurch energetically immediately following the explosion of his head. Could this movement have been caused by the directly transferred momentum of a bullet? That is, can a bullet "push" somebody like that?

Answer: No, and no. The movement of a body due to bullet momentum cannot be greater than the movement of the same body if it was holding the gun that fired the bullet. This is a result of elementary physics and is not disputed by anyone who understands physics. The major frustrating feature of the Kennedy assassination phenomenon is the willingness of people to pretend to talk authoritatively on subjects they know absolutely nothing about, especially things related to firearms.

....simulations have shown that bullet strikes to the skull that result in blowing out a significant hole upon exit
result in skull recoil towards the bullet entry direction. The dynamics of this are a little complicated, but are more related to the pressure inside the skull cavity created by the bullet passage than to effects directly related to the bullet movement. The dynamics of this kind of impact were demonstrated independently in testing by Dr. Luis Alvarez and by Dr. John K. Lattimer et al.


[Edited 2003-11-23 12:32:02]

[Edited 2003-11-23 12:32:51]
 
727LOVER
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:49 pm

Last night I saw Nellie Connely on Larry King. Now, she says there were 3 shots, all from behind and that the gov. and the prez were hit by seperate bullets. But a bullet was found ground into the sidewalk.
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Alpha 1
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:02 am

Backfire, you haven't convinced me of anything. I'm sure if you get a dozen ballistics experts, they'll disagree, just like all those, as you say, who witnessed things. As someone told me last night, acoustics can play tricks on the ear. Nellie Connolly said she heard shots from behind. Witnesses near the knoll said they herd shots from behind them. You seem to automatically dismiss what the witnesses near the knoll say, and totally beleive those who say shots came from behind. There's no doubt LHO fired on Kennedy, but I am still not convinced the fatal shot came from behind, and I don't know if I ever will. I don't discount that it could have, but I'm not convinced of it. Unlike you, I at least keep an open mind on the possibility. You do not. I don't understand your fierce defense of this, it mystified me, but there it is.

In any event, like I said, we'll probably never know for certain.
 
sleekjet
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:32 am

Cicadajet: I saw the History Channel programs and found them rather convincing. The Oswald lover story would seem preposterous were it not for all the corroborating evidence the lady offered.

The program blaming LBJ is a bit more of a stretch to me. It kinda came down to the lawyer's opinion (which may be truth). It is so hard to get dead people to talk, you know.  Big grin
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backfire
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:27 am

Unlike you, I at least keep an open mind on the possibility

I was prepared to keep an open mind for as long as the conspiracy theories made sense.

But it's foolish to make a stand simply for the sake of being bloody-minded. Eventually I felt I had to decide which scenario was more plausible - and I'm afraid that, for me, the conspiracy ideas not only go beyond plausibility, they frequently go beyond basic common sense.

Don't forget that Oswald didn't start with a clean sheet. The evidence was already stacked against him. If this had been a regular murder inquiry, he would have been locked up and no-one would have dared suggest he wasn't guilty.

So the challenge is this - is there an alternative realistic scenario which not only accounts for Oswald's apparent guilt but also explains the virtually-impossible: that in 40 years no-one has spilled the details of a conspiracy which would have needed the collaboration of just about everyone except Lee Harvey Oswald. You simply can't call everyone a liar.

What makes me laugh is that the cover-up required would have been so complicated that, at some point, it simply would have been far easier to find another way of assassinating Kennedy. This minor point seems to escape a lot of people.

I didn't read Garrison's and others' books lightly. I read them with an open mind, with a view to forming my own conclusion. And the conclusion I've reached might be unpopular - but I'm not looking for votes and I'm not looking to convince anyone else. I'm satisfied that none of the main arguments used to support a conspiracy has any genuine foundation - and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to reason why. Go through each point yourself - or does your scepticism only work in one direction?

The great thing about my personal opinion is this: while the conspiracy nuts fret over the identity of the 'real' assassin, I can sit back and feel completely at peace knowing that, beyond all reasonable doubt, I know whodunnit. It's a very liberating feeling, I assure you.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:54 am

I was prepared to keep an open mind for as long as the conspiracy theories made sense.

So, you conveniently dump all conspiracy theories into one big, fat group of making no sense? There are some that are outlandish-the one that LBJ was involved, I think, is nuts. But there are many that make sense.

To those who do believe that there was a conspiracy, it usually revolves around the fact that JFK didn't want us deeper into Vietnam; or that the mob, tired of being houdned by JFK, wanted him disposed of. To those who do believe there was a conspiracy, they go back to the ease in which Oswald was killed, and in watching the Zapruder film, and the fact that Kennedy was thrown violently backward in his car. It's definitely complex, no doubt, but there is enough out there-and even the government says so now-to suggest that there was a larger plot to murder Kennedy.

The great thing about my personal opinion is this: while the conspiracy nuts..

So, we're all nuts, eh? That right there tells me that you have a true dislike for those of us, who, like you, have looked at a lot of the fact, and come to a different conclusion than you. I don't see anyone calling you nuts here-you just see it different than some of us do.

I can sit back and feel completely at peace knowing that, beyond all reasonable doubt, I know whodunnit.

Fine, then you're better and smarter than the rest of us who don't beleive what you do. No wonder you think we're all nuts.  Laugh out loud
 
backfire
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:41 am

BBC television has just aired the Kennedy documentary with which this thread opened. Sorry Alpha1 - I think we'll be agreeing to disagree forever - but the programme, to me, was not at all one-sided and your brief assessment of it is IMHO very misleading to anyone who didn't see it.

It took into account several of the main planks of the conspiracy theorists - and, quite reasonably, showed why they were nonsense. That's exactly what it should have done.

Ybacpa says that due diligence in a case like this requires plausible, or at least popular, alternative theories to be disproven.

Er...no it doesn't. But aside from the fact that, in a criminal investigation, the burden is proof of guilt - not disproof of non-guilt - this programme did explain away several popular conspiracy pillars:

- the timing of the rifle-shots is much longer than Stone's 'JFK' would have you believe (easily determined by anyone watching the Zapruder film)

- that Oswald was a good marksman, operating well within his capabilities (his army record proves it, but it's still something which 'JFK' tries to deny)

- that the 'magic bullet' was neither magic, nor shaped much like a bullet after it passed through two people, as military bullets are built to do. Funny how the conspiracy books never like to show that picture of the 'pristine' bullet end-on, in a way which makes the deformation clear

- that the highly-questionable 'fourth shot' acoustic finding which belatedly cropped up in the late-1970s committee investigation was subsequently dismissed as highly unreliable

- that the fatal head-shot came from the rear, as shown by the medical evidence, the technical examination of the limousine windscreen, the ballistics analysis, and now by computer projection. I've already answered the question about why the movement of Kennedy's body is completely irrelevant to determining the direction of this bullet

- that the Warren Commission report is an exhaustive and solid reference work, frequently unfairly derided as 'unreadable' only by those with an alternative agenda - or by those who haven't actually read it


Again, Alpha1, no disrespect intended - you're entitled to your viewpoint and I've rather enjoyed the sparring. But I can't help but wonder about your evidence that Oswald wasn't alone. What can I say - convince me.
 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:17 am

Several times in recent years, I've heard that the majority of American people now seem to believe the JFK assassination was the result of a conspiracy.

In that case, the (lunatic?) "fringe" must be those buying the Warren Commission's conclusions...

Time to pass the tinfoil hats to the other team ...?  Smile

 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:25 pm

It is of my own personal opinion that Lee Harvey Oswald was the ONLY person that took a shot at JFK.

Let's consider this: they actually fired real bullets from the grassy knoll at Dealey Plaza for a recreation test and it was determined that JFK's wounds would have been quite a bit different if the shots from that area had hit JFK in the head. Also, anyone who's read Gerard Posner's book Case Closed would have noted that Posner used the extensive simulation research done by Failure Analysis Associates (a company known for its recreation of crashes and crime scenes), research that showed that Oswald being the only shooter was entirely plausible.

I think the people who believe in conspiracy theories are just those who are emotionally covering up for the fact JFK was killed in such a shocking fashion.
 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:41 am

Someone asked above - Why did Oswald pass up an excellent shot comming down that other street to take a marginal shot through a tree on Dealy?


Ignoring the blatant lift from 'JFK', this actually has a fairly straightforward answer. Simple trigonometry demonstrates that a face-on shot is not at all "excellent" - it's arguably much more difficult.

Why? Because of the lateral movement involved. When a target on a road below your position is moving towards you, there has to be an increasingly-rapid change in the downward angle of your rifle to keep up with it.

But when the target is moving away from you, the rate of change of this angle (upwards this time) becomes slower and slower - therefore keeping the receding target steadier in your sight.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:43 am

Brought to you by Backfire, who is much smarter than the rest of us.

Autographs can be had for $5 in the lobby after his lecture.  Wink/being sarcastic
 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:01 am

Brought to you by Backfire, who is much smarter than the rest of us.

I wish that were true. It would give people a decent excuse for acting like sheep.

However, it's not true. And in any case it's not about IQ points - it's about a willingness to stop swallowing bullshit simply because it's been handed out in a movie theatre.

Stone is a talented film-maker. It's just a shame that he's not an accurate historian. He managed to put more flaws into Garrison's already-flawed work.

Like one reviewer correctly said when 'JFK' was released - Stone could have made the truly brave movie, the one showing why Oswald shot Kennedy alone. Instead he chickened out and chose to preach to the converted. And he couldn't even get that right.
 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:01 pm

That BBC doc was a calm, rational, extensive work.
Oswald did it, he was a lonely, mixed-up wannabe with delusions of grandeur, he wanted to make his mark on the world.
Firstly by defecting to the USSR, but after the KGB realized he was no use as an intelligence asset, he was ignored.
So home he went with his new Russian wife, he was upset that there was no press reception at the airport.
Months before JFK, he tried to kill a right wing former General, the bullet was deflected by a window pane as Oswald shot at him as the target sat by a window at his home.
Oswald went to the book depositary with a long item wrapped up, telling co-workers it was curtain rails.
Oswald fired 3 shots in 8.3 seconds, not 6 as Stone claimed, he was a good marksmen in the USMC, they had his target score cards to prove it.
Oswald's .38 pistol was the one used to kill Officer Tippett.
As was his rifle that killed JFK.
Ruby was, according to these who worked at his club, an unstable man who took JFKs killing very badly.
He knew local Cops through his club, he wanted to be where the action was, he always carried a gun, then in the police station he saw Oswald come through, with a slight smirk on his face, it was too much for him.
Answer this, if Ruby killed Oswald to stop him talking, who kills Ruby to shut him up, who kills the guy who kills Ruby.....and so on.

One more thing, why cannot people accept that a lone nut could kill a President?
Because nearly 20 years later, another lone nut almost killed Reagan, remember that?
It seems all the conspiracy people have, all too conveniently.
Get over it.
The US is getting a reputation as being filled with very irrational people who cannot accept the truth.
But WW1 was started by a lone nut killing an important political figure, I suppose ignorance and insularity leads to facts like this being ignored.
Sorry to be so harsh, but a reality check is needed.





 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:18 pm

I just find it so uncanny that Abe Zapruder captured the entire sequence without flinching. After the first shot is fired, he continues to shoot and pan across as if nothing has happened. He was an amateur photographer, and when you see all the silly stuff on shows like RealTV, you'd think the filming would become all jittery and bumpy, but instead remains shockingly smooth. Now, by the 3rd and fatal shot after some 6 or so seconds after the 1st shot, wouldn't one have an inkling as to where the shot came from? I also find it interesting that Mr. Zapruder stops filming just as the edge of the grassy knoll comes into view. This extra 2-3 seconds of footage could have cleared 40 years of 'conspiracy'.

I'm not one for unfounded conspiracy theories, but the JFK mystery has always been intriguing to me -more from a 'what-if' mentallity, than a 'the govn't is always bad, and I'm hell-bent on proving their cover-up' . Because, let's face it... if this story was black and white, it would be downright BORING.

-Rob
What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:20 am

Did Zapruder even hear the shots at first? All the cheering crowds etc. The Texas Govenor seemed to hear the shot that missed, the first one, as he tilted his body in reaction (and he was seated slightly to the side of JFK, and at a different elevation, so the 'magic' bullet was not so magic, it could penetrate both JFK and the Govenor).
Wasn't Zapruder standing on a plinth supported by his secretary?
But an amazing piece of film, ironically far from proving a conspiracy, when the true facts are at hand, it demonstrates the truth, 3 shots from behind the motorcade.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:36 am

Hmmm, let's see.....three bullets:
1) a miss, hits the curb, fragment hits John Tague
2) the "magic", or "pristine" bullet: through JFK's neck, exits, hits Connally's shoulder, exits, hits Connally's wrist, exits, winds up in Connally's thigh
3) the fatal head shot on Kennedy

And we're supposed to believe the WC's published conclusions about the "magic" bullet? Yeah, right. From what I've seen, heard, and read on both sides, there were more than three bullets. In other words, more than one shooter.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:54 am

No there was not, no proof whatsoever of more than 3 shots.
Don't take anything from the 'JFK' film, that was so full of lies (Garrison the 'Hero' used witnesses he knew were lying for a start), and half truths.
Stone called it 'artistic licence' what an understatement, the film was a well made piece of BS, nothing more, yet so many take it seriously, or the 'facts' in them.

There was NO magic bullet. It behaved as you'd expect, only Stone misrepresented the positions of JFK and the Govenor, told untruths about the bullet's condition, (identical fragments from the bullet were found in the Govenor), it was not pristine, it was not magic.

Again, explain why a lone nut could nearly kill Reagan in 1981, but not succeed with JFK 18 years earlier?

Oswald had form (trying to kill the right wing ex-general months before, no-one disputes that, or that he acted alone then), he had the weapon, he had the location-his workplace, (where 3 days before he along with everyone else were informed of the route of JFK's motorcade).

I know that America was shocked by Nixon's lies and deceptions (though a look at his previous political record should have informed of his character), but why is everything a conspiracy since Watergate?

After Watergate, the Moon Landings were faked, JFK was killed by (delete as applicable) the Mafia, Russians, Castro, Big business, LBJ, Hoover, CIA, Aliens, and more besides no doubt.
Elvis is still alive, aliens are here, it's all being covered up by a huge government conspiracy, the same government who made such a hash of covering up the relatively minor Watergate break-ins.

What cover up was there, the remaining files, 60,000 pages of them, relating to the assassination were released in the 1990's.




 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:59 am

Well I am sure if we can examine Kennedy's brain we will answer the question about where that head shot came from....


Oh wait....the government lost it......A key peice of evidence.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
GDB
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:20 am

Did they? I mean the implication that it was lost deliberately. I bet organs go missing all the time.
The autopsy was extensively covered, including photographs, anyway.

Present the facts in a calm and rational way, free of the axe grinding motives so often used, and the conspiracy people end up clutching at straws.

Oswald wanted a place in history, he sadly got it, just like many other assassins.
JFK was not the first US President to be killed, Reagan almost joined that grim list, where is all the conspiracy stuff about that attempt, or do only successful ones count as plots?

 
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:04 pm

And yet, the Senate Select Committe on Assainations ruled there was a pobably conspiracy in the JFK case.

Sounds like a pretty official source with questions to me.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
backfire
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RE: Anyone Watch The ABC News Special On JFK?

Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:53 pm

And yet, the Senate Select Committe on Assainations ruled there was a pobably conspiracy in the JFK case.


This is exactly how conspiracy theories start - misleading people with half-truths.

The Senate Select Committee was forced to adopt this verdict after the late intervention of scientific acoustics evidence which claimed to have detected a possible fourth gunshot on a police radio recording. It was flimsy evidence to begin with (even the scientists couldn't be certain) and, in any case, it has since been discredited.

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