Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:01 am

Interesting article.

http://www.sgvtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,205~12238~1800641,00.html

Illegals affect health delivery

(BTW, I've been saying this all along. And nothing that they 'effect' is anything good)

FOUR hospital administrators with whom we spoke about the critical need for health-delivery reform believe the United States, like Canada, may be forced into a universal or single-payer system.

Certainly the California Legislature is moving the state toward that eventuality with the approval of a sweeping medical insurance bill that would essentially make employers responsible for 90 percent of their employees' health benefit costs.

Recent strikes over health-care illustrate the importance of these benefits. To many employees, fully-paid benefits are preferred to straight salary increases. Health-care costs have risen steadily and show no signs of leveling off, making health benefits a top employment issue.

Hospital administrators agree: The more people insured, the less impact on their ability to remain operational and still treat a reasonable number of uninsured.

Some health-care researchers place the number of uninsured in Los Angeles County at about 50 percent. Translated: With a shocking 4-1/2 million people in our region without medical coverage, the position of hospitals forced to give basically free treatment has become untenable.

But it will take more than insuring as many of those uninsured as possible to get hospitals back to some semblance of economic health.

Congress ought to take seriously a Pew Research Center for The People & The Press study that found about 82 percent of registered Republicans favor tighter immigration controls. The real surprise is the number of Democrats and independents who agree, about 76 percent of each. Rising health-care costs and crowded emergency rooms certainly could be cited as a viable reason.

Federal authorities have acknowledged the negative impact illegal immigration has had on the financial solvency of the nation's hospitals by including $1 billion in the Medicare modernization bill to reimburse hospitals for services provided to illegal immigrants.

Clearly the bulk of that funding should go to border states including California, which shoulders a disproportionate share of the cost of illegal immigration from Mexico. In fact, Southern California hospitals ought to receive additional federal aid on a temporary basis to deal with the treatment of uninsured immigrants. We'd like to see research to determine the depth of this need to recommend both the amount and length of funding.

Too, urban hospitals in cities of less than 1 million residents will receive larger Medicare payments under the newly passed legislation. Certainly any added money will help.

But HMOs, increasingly using their member "buying power' to low-ball hospital payments, ultimately end up doing a disservice to their members if hospitals are forced to cut services or close.

These health organizations must shave a little off the bottom line to increase the amount paid to hospitals to ensure the facilities stay open.

But hospitals must do more to guarantee their future. A good place to start would be with the Hospital Association of Southern California, which must become more active politically. It's clear hospitals need lobbyists in the California and federal state houses to get their message out.

Unless the problem of financial stability for hospitals is addressed through a variety of means, the insured will continue to pay more to subsidize the uninsured, creating a defacto universal care program that will quickly collapse under its own expensive and inequitable weight.

Today, we present the second in our series on the health of hospitals in our region.

Tomorrow, we look at hospital staffing.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't agree with much of this article, other than the problems that it points out. I especially do not agree with the proposed "solutions".


The answer to this issue is as simple as the problem is big:

It lies not with increased funding, hiring more staff, or mandating that companies pay for insurance.

The bottom line simple solution is this:

NO PUBLICLY FUNDED HEALTH CARE WILL BE GIVEN TO ANY PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY WHO IS HERE ILLEGALLY

That's it.

What part of ILLEGAL is unclear?

The only thing that an illegal alien deserves is imprisonment and/or a one way ticket back to their country of origin.

Period.

 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:19 am

Matt. You are forgetting the fact that us rich, over priviledged Americans SHOULD be paying for everything for these illegals in our country. Or at least a large contingent on this board would tell us that.
 
Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:24 am

My bad. As white, heterosexual males, we are to blame for every ill in history, including the shooting of Bambi's mother, genocide, hurricane Andrew, and the 1054 supernova explosion that created the Crab Nebula.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:31 am

Check that, as white, hetereosexual AMERICAN males..... Don't want to fire up white, straight Euro male who always goes out of his way to pay for illegals in his country.
 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:40 am

This thread is a lesson in fuzzyness.

Is your point against:
A) Illegal immigration
B) Public healthcare
C) Those who like clarity and don't like issues to be mixed-up, such as, for example, mixing up the Iraq invasion and the war against Al-Qaida
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:42 am

All of the above.
 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:43 am

So your against clarity. Fine. No point arguing then.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2568
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:00 am

Get off the cross, Matt, we need the wood!

More silly rhetoric from you, as usual. As a preemtive strike for any argument that might come from a liberal point of view, you trot out the they're-against-us-because-we're-white-males war horse.

All those years of persecution, Matt. It must be rough.

Back to the discussion at hand. Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card? I think of health care as being an inalienable right.

I think everyone is entitled to fundamental health care whether they are citizens or illegal immigrants, whether they are rich or poor.

PERIOD!

(Wow! I like spelling out "period". It's so final. It's so tough!)

 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:13 am

Lets send those illegals home.

I hope you're ready to pick strawberries and corn and lettuce and grapes; clean hotel rooms; move heavy crates, and essentially do all the unpleasant tasks that those illegals do. But why do I suspect that we will be privy to yet another whiny posting on the price increase on Big Macs and why lettuce in a Big Mac is so unnecessary.

Perhaps, with the unemployment figures still in the crapper, some of the other discriminated males on here can finally find jobs doing just the above when we pack those beleagured illegals home.

Until then, the assumption that a healthy illegal is a highly productive illegal still holds. You wouldn't want some sick Mexican coughing and sneezing over your veggies now, would you?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:30 am

Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card?

Absolutely.


I think everyone is entitled to fundamental health care whether they are citizens or illegal immigrants, whether they are rich or poor.

It's always easy spending someone elses money, isn't it?






[Edited 2003-12-01 19:42:18]
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:35 am

Jaysit, if you're going to state your distaste for the idea of 'sending illegals back', then at least have the decency to propose a solution to the consequences of letting them stay here. Don't pretend like there are no consequences either. If there weren't any, then we'd all say 'what the fuck, let them in'. But as you can see from the article, there are issues to solve, and it seems the low income Americans are the ones that get hosed first. Any ideas how you'd support your position or are you just going to say 'let em stay' and then go search for another good deed to do?
"Shaddap you!"
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2568
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:45 am

"It's always easy spending someone elses money, isn't?"

Are you talking to me or are you talking to an executive from Bechtel?

Actually, I'm spending my money. And, yes, I am willing to allow a portion of my money to be taken in the form of taxes in order to ensure that every individual in this country has the fundamental right to health care.

 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:48 am

I hope you're ready to pick strawberries and corn and lettuce and grapes; clean hotel rooms; move heavy crates, and essentially do all the unpleasant tasks that those illegals do.

Wow, those horrible tasks. Sounds like perfect jobs for all those wonderful Welfare recipiants.

Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card?

Why don't they "show up" at hospitals in their own country? Oh, thats right, because in the U.S. they get free medical care (well free for them, expensive for me), and in their own country they might not get care anywhere.
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2568
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:49 am

Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card?

Why don't they "show up" at hospitals in their own country? Oh, thats right, because in the U.S. they get free medical care (well free for them, expensive for me), and in their own country they might not get care anywhere.


And yet, you are unwilling to actually answer my question.
 
Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:53 am

I already did answer it.

Now to answer your other charge, no one is stopping you from spending YOUR money for this purpose if you are so inclined.

WTF gives you the right to spend MY money?


[edit]

KROC hit the nail on the head. Let's take these multi generation Welfare couch potatoes and put THEM in the fields to pick fruits and vegetables and mopping floors. At least they'll be doing something productive instead of having baby after baby and acting as a black hole for my tax dollars.

[Edited 2003-12-01 19:55:38]
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:02 am

Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card?

Yes, I am willing. Why should MY money go to pay for someone's treatment when they do not do anything in return for the country, like pay taxes etc? If they are in the U.S. illegally, then they are LEGAL residents of some country, so perhaps their home government should foot the bill for their medical expenses. I have no problem taking care of 'our own', but that doesn't include illegals, especially when it is my money, that I work 2 jobs to earn, that is taken in the form of taxes, then goes to pay for illegal Joe's medical bills.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:08 am

JetService:
The provision of costly healthcare to illegals is just as important as addressing the issue of agribusiness dependence on cheap labor provided by illegals. There is an enormous underground economy that thrives and subsists on cheal illegal labor and we, the American public, forget that our cheap food products are often the result of their labor. Now, of course we cannot deny healthcare to the poor in America who have never received the benefits of health care, while at the same time taking care of illegal aliens. But kicking them out would never solve the problem, and besides I doubt if agribusiness in California or Oregon would allow it. We could increase food imports, but that would lead to the decimation of produce farms in the US.

I dont think we are talking about emergency care here. Emergency medical care is provided for everyone at public hospitals. If you're seriously burned in an aircrash, the doctors dont ask you to show your greencard. But that isnt what this is all about. We're talking about basic health care. There isnt an easy way to make illegals pay for their healthcare without without violating a whole slew of laws, but we could pass legislation that would allow illegals access to some form of healthcare while at the same time making them pay for a fraction of their ambulatory care, a fraction that would be higher than what low income Americans would have to pay.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2568
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:09 am

So, you're alleging that illegal immigrants are "taking" more than their "giving" to our society?

Do you have any data that backs up this claim beside your rants about how hard you work and and how immigrants make lots of babies?

It's an interesting myth.
 
Guest

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:15 am

If someone who is illegally in this country comes into a hospital needing care due to a serious life threatening problem they WON'T be denied. Care first, ask questions later. First rule in medicine is Do No Harm, not Do Not Enter.

I can understand everyone's point of view, very interesting and passionate, BUT.......

If illegalls are coming to this country then they must want a better life. Can't blame anyone for that. I'd do the same thing in that situation. If people want illegals out then put up a bigger fence and have border guards every ten feet.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:15 am

"Wow, those horrible tasks. Sounds like perfect jobs for all those wonderful Welfare recipiants."

You're absolutely right on that one. Now you try getting some of those welfare recipients to work. Hell, try getting some of those laid-off computer workers who lost their jobs in the last 3 years to take on those jobs.
Americans often don't have the will to work in those jobs AND agribusinesses could never pay them the ludicrously low wages they pay illegals (who incidentally work their butts off).

"Why should MY money go to pay for someone's treatment when they do not do anything in return for the country, like pay taxes etc"

I think that the wages they work at get translated into low cost agricultural goods and services. That means savings at the cash register for YOU. If this isn't a service, then I dont know what is.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Guest

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:54 am

Funny how people miss that these people are here ILLEGALLY. This is not a difficult country to get into legally. All those migrant worker jobs should be done by welfare recipients because then they would be actually doing something for their money rather than making future welfare recipients. If these strawberry pickers and whatever still want to come here and work that can be arranged. As long as they are paying taxes then there is no reason for them to be denied health care. If they do show up at the hospital and its found they are illegal and have no means to pay they should be stabilized and deported so their own countries health care system can treat them. This will make the border patrols job easier since all they need to do is watch the hospitals along the border. Keep in mind that if these people cross the border and have a kid in the US that kid is a US citizen so the parents get to stay. We really need to do something about this because look around.. The country is full.

Be careful wishing for free healthcare. If you think it is expensive now just wait until its free and you have your taxes go up 33% and have to wait 5 days to get a prescription for some damn antibiotics for a minor cold. I guess people that never plan to have any of their own money (democrats) do not mind spending the money of those of us that work our butts off for every penny we see. Those of us who do bust our asses for our paycheck would appreciate getting to keep as much as possible rather than mailing it to Washington DC every April.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:18 am

"I guess people that never plan to have any of their own money (democrats) do not mind spending the money of those of us that work our butts off for every penny we see."

LOL ! Here we go again - slip sliding into the twilight zone of stupidity.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:32 am

Jaysit, the scope of agribusiness dependence on illegals should only dictate the rate at which a solution is implemented, not if or if not. And that's fine and dandy. But as Matt D and KROC pointed out, I'm sure that vacuum could be filled readily. Speaking of that, what criteria exactly would you think be necessary for an illegal to get their healthcare paid for? Just being an illegal? Is it automatic? I bet scores of Americans that have been rejected for Medicaid, SSI or disability will have a big problem with that.
"Shaddap you!"
 
seb146
Posts: 14058
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:49 am

Having worked with a few illegals, here is my two cents:

GENERALLY, they are paid with a check and taxes are deducted from their pay. Yes, I know there are jobs where they are paid cash, but for this post, I am sticking to just the 'taxed' jobs.

Since taxes are being deducted from their pay, they are giving to the government. Here in Washington, we have sales tax to fund things like the baseball and football stadium in Seattle and the light rail system in Seattle (that has not started to be built). There is tax on liquor and tobacco and fees for things like auto licensing and state issued ID cards. While these illegals do not have papers or a green card to prove they are in this country, they are still contributing. Do they do their grocery and clothes shopping in Mexico? Nope. Right here along side me using money they earned and had their taxes deducted from just like me.

My point is: when someone can prove they contribute, no matter what country they are from, they should be able to go to hospital if the need arises and not pay anything, or very very little. I would not expect to just waltz into a hospital in Canada, Japan, Russia, Mexico or any other country and expect free health care because I don't contribute to those countries; My taxes are collected for the United States.

The point about welfare recipients getting a job scrubbing toilets or flipping burgers: not gonna happen. I have heard some of them say things like 'You would never catch me doing that job' or 'It don't pay good' so they continue to pop out kids and get something for nothing. I say reform the welfare system first.

GO CANUCKS!!
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:18 am

Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card?

Absolutely.


Matt D, would you appreciate it if your dad was a "little bit foreign looking" and got turned away from hospital because he couldn't immediatly provide proof of his citizenship?

Would you be so vehement then?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:53 am

So I guess only homeless people and illegal immigrants use health care?
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:00 am

Be careful wishing for free healthcare. If you think it is expensive now just wait until its free and you have your taxes go up 33% and have to wait 5 days to get a prescription for some damn antibiotics for a minor cold. I guess people that never plan to have any of their own money (democrats) do not mind spending the money of those of us that work our butts off for every penny we see. Those of us who do bust our asses for our paycheck would appreciate getting to keep as much as possible rather than mailing it to Washington DC every April.

I love how people just ignore Canada, Europe and my country - the US's best ally - the UK.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:44 am

I think they should treat illegals if the illness is serious but they should then levy a charge for the medical treatment. This may mean sending the bailiffs round to confiscate goods. As an aside, if an illegal turns up at hospital requiring treatment, what a wonderful opportunity for immigration officers to wish them a speedy recovery after treatment and then expedite their return to the place of origin. This way, sure the taxpayer pays for the medical treatment but that money also ends up with an illegal being repatriated. Often it costs more to simply hunt illegals who have hidden away in the fabric of society.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:51 am

I agree with an earlier posting that 'free' healthcare is a myth. Sure, I can get free substandard hospital treatment if I want, and it only takes me a week(!) to get an appointment with my local doctor, but I am paying 12.2% 'National Insurance' on top of the 40% tax I already pay. The irony is that I use private healthcare anyway, which is actually cheaper to pay the insurance for than the 'free' NHS healthcare is. Free healthcare will be the ruining of this country - so many Brits are suckered into believing free healthcare is a good thing about the UK but from experience of living in many different countries it is actually one of the worst things about living here as it is expensive and inefficient. Heck, even India (when I lived there) had medical facilities and high calibre doctors and nurses that would put 90% of British hospitals to shame.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:10 am

"But as Matt D and KROC pointed out, I'm sure that vacuum could be filled readily."

Hardly. Their solutions work quite nicely as funny soundbites on a.net, but would be impossible to implement. As I've stated before, the wages paid by agribusinesses to illegals is far below minimum wage. You could not create a system for legal welfare couch potatoes in which they were paid less than minimum wage.

"Speaking of that, what criteria exactly would you think be necessary for an illegal to get their healthcare paid for? Just being an illegal? Is it automatic? I bet scores of Americans that have been rejected for Medicaid, SSI or disability will have a big problem with that."

All very good questions, but none of which can be solved by a.net postings I'm afraid. As a matter of fact, it would be impossible to implement a healthcare plan for illegals because it would violate a whole slew of statutes, both federal and state, let alone violate the very element of fairness for American nationals as raised by you above. But as I mentioned earlier, a multi-tier healthcare system could work, albeit one in which the healthcare of Americans without insurance are addressed (of course, the conservatives on here would want none of that either - as long as their fat-filled arteries are taken care of, healthcare for all Americans be damned, but I digress). In such a system, low income American residents would gain access to a viable healthcare system by showing, for instance, a medicaid card. Illegals who wouldnt have any legal identification would be made to pay a much higher fraction of their costs, no questions asked. However, as you mention such systems can only be legislated if the medical interests of all Americans are addressed. first.

My original posting just wanted to highlight the fact that illegals are part of the US economy, whether we like it or not. Kicking them out in one giant pogrom isnt going to work, and the labor needs of the underground economy are unlikely to be filled by welfare Moms or any other demographic football du jour. Neither is treating them like cocroaches, worthy of contempt reserved for such creatures. Illegals work just like anyone else. Many contribute by keeping the cost of food products low, a fact of life that most Americans have gotten very used to.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:23 am

Hardly. Their solutions work quite nicely as funny soundbites on a.net, but would be impossible to implement. As I've stated before, the wages paid by agribusinesses to illegals is far below minimum wage. You could not create a system for legal welfare couch potatoes in which they were paid less than minimum wage.

Paid less than minimum wage? How about...you want your welfare check, then get your ass out and pick those strawberries, oranges, whatever. If no true U.S. person wants to do that, then that just might be the kick in the ass that Welfare Collector needs to actually find a real...paying job. If they don't want to do such "menial labor", they can kiss that welfare check gone-good-bye-bye.
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:39 am

Hardly. Their solutions work quite nicely as funny soundbites on a.net, but would be impossible to implement. As I've stated before, the wages paid by agribusinesses to illegals is far below minimum wage. You could not create a system for legal welfare couch potatoes in which they were paid less than minimum wage.

Jaysit, but I can't see them fighting it on those grounds. That's not very legitimate, as real as it might be. Now if you know of a way they can outflank that issue with another and all you're saying is they will fight it, then I won't argue that.

as long as their fat-filled arteries are taken care of
Excuse me sir, but my HDL happens to be 78  Big grin

healthcare for all Americans be damned, but I digress
Actually, I haven't heard too many people complain about Medicare, et al. Just the illegal aliens. Granted, there's been a lot of arguing regarding nationalizing healthcare for everyone, but that's different.

Many contribute by keeping the cost of food products low, a fact of life that most Americans have gotten very used to Sure, but what good is that when the savings are taken out of the deductions column of the ole paycheck. Also, you can't necessarily argue the consequences on the situation per se, because once a major concession like that is made, the problem will multiply significantly.



All very good questions, but none of which can be solved by a.net postings I'm afraid

Hopefully, no one really expects to solve problems here  Smile
"Shaddap you!"
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2568
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:44 am

Well, KROC, once again your little shoot from the hip tirades lack any factual backup.

What percentage of the U.S. population is drawing welfare? One percent? And of that, say, one percent, you're going to have to subtract minors and those with disabilities so profound that they can't drag their ass out to the fields.

And how many undocumented workers do we employ who are working for less than minimum wage?

So, bottom line, when you kick every "illegal" out of the country, are you going to be able to fill their positions with able-bodied people?

Do you ever really do the math or do you just mouth off your neo-conservative tripe?
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:51 am

And how many undocumented workers do we employ who are working for less than minimum wage?

If they are 'undocumented' there genius, then I cannot answer your 'question' and neither can anyone else.

So, bottom line, when you kick every "illegal" out of the country, are you going to be able to fill their positions with able-bodied people?

Yes. You see, "illegals" DO NOT belong in this country. Funny, there are ways of coming here legally. If they want to come here that bad, do it right. And able bodied postions..filled? You mean to tell me that there aren't rnough people out there that can fill these 'minial tasks' roles. Please.

Do you ever really do the math or do you just mouth off your neo-conservative tripe?

Yeah, this adds credibility to your already lacking argument.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:54 am

"Also, you can't necessarily argue the consequences on the situation per se, because once a major concession like that is made, the problem will multiply significantly."

You're right. Thats why everyone is hoping the problem just stays under the rug, only to be exposed when issues of healthcare for illegals raises everyones ire on all sides of the political divide. I believe the President wanted to legalize up to 4 million illegal Mexican nationals in 2002 to appease Vicente Fox, which would have been a legal solution to the problem, but not one that would have necessarily been feasible or popular.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:04 am

"You mean to tell me that there aren't rnough people out there that can fill these 'minial tasks' roles. Please."

Actually, Kroc, there arent enough able-bodied "welfare couch potatoes" (as you would call them) who could do these menial tasks. The numbers on welfare have declined nearly 70% through the 90s to only about 3 million now. An overwhelming percentage of those are children or the elderly. Now as you suggest, we could make these people work in the fields picking rutabagas and the like, but the companies that hire illegals would never want to a. hire welfare recipients; and b. hire them at legal wages that would reduce thier slim profits.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2568
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:13 am

1. We have very sophisticated information gathering systems in this country that are both statistically reliable and valid. I am sure that if you put your mind to it, KROC, you could find information on illegal workers online. (And thanks for calling me a genius!)

2. "You mean to tell me that there aren't rnough people out there that can fill these 'minial tasks' roles. Please." You're the one making the statement that there are, so prove it.

3. The only argument that I have made is that YOU have failed to make a valid argument.

You know, just as Jaysit has been pointing out, this topic is very complicated and intricate. You can't sit in your armchair and solve the world's problems by ranting about all the lazy and "illegal" people.
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:58 am

MBMBOS, don't think only welfare recips would fill the void. There are plenty of pimply faced high-schoolers looking for beer money as well as plenty of single income households looking to suppliment there VISA debt.
"Shaddap you!"
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:02 pm

JetService:
There are plenty of pimply faced high-schoolers looking for beer money...

Are you 'scoreing' for these teens? Big grin
I remember back in high school getting someone over 21 to score us some beer in front of 7/11s and grocery stores.

Those were some fun times. Big grin
Bring back the Concorde
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:39 pm

Superfly, I was lucky in high school. My best friend's dad always kept a full liquor cabinet and fridge full of Falstaff (Fort Wayne's finist brew  Big grin ). They went out every weekend. We stayed in Big grin Wasn't difficult to lure the neighbor girls over with that stash.
"Shaddap you!"
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:52 pm

JetService:
Falstaff beer, neighborhood girls, John Cougar Mellencamp and White Castle's burgers? Man talk about the ultimate Indiana moment!  Big thumbs up


Now that we're older, we know better than to drink Falstaff beer.
Has Sierra Nevada made it's way to Fort Wayne yet?
There Pale Ale is a good summer time brew.  Smokin cool
Bring back the Concorde
 
Guest

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:42 pm

Actually in my earlier post I was not ignoring Canada, Uk, the rest of Europe. Look at the quality of their health care compared to ours. As my post said you might wait a week for something simple that can be handled in the US within an hour. In those countries you may wait many months for a non-emergency surgical procedure. Is this the free health care we want? Sorry but if I am in pain or puking myself silly or unable to go to school because of a huge boil on my ass I want to be able to see a doctor NOW.

The reason for the long wait in countries with free healthcare is simple. There is no financial incentive to be a doctor. Take away the financial incentive and why would someone work their ass off for 10 years in college always having to be the absolute best? Do you honestly think there are that many people in the world that would work that hard just because it makes them feel good to help people? If you do your view of the world is more warped than I thought.

I know people that are going to be doctors. They did not get anything less than an A in their undergrad studies and they were not taking crap classes like Political Science or the Philosophy of muskrats.. Medical schools in the US turn down just about anyone with less than a perfect GPA and unless you write a damn good admissions essay it better be in a real science field.

Plus look at how much we pay in taxes now. Yes some countries pay more. Does that mean we should pay half our income to the government right away? I don't think so. The way you have a healthy economy is put money in peoples pockets, not hand it all over to the government.

As for the illegals. If someone who cannot prove citizenship shows up in a hospital INS or the Border Patrol should be called. If after an investigation they still cannot prove that the person has a social security number they should by all means be deported as quickly as possible. I also think we should change the conditions for citizenship. Being born here should no longer be a way to get citizenship. Having at least one parent who is a citizen would be a good policy.

Maybe we could also work on sort of an invisible fence system. We catch an illegal once we plant a chip in their head that shocks them next time they try to cross the border.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:55 pm

"There are plenty of pimply faced high-schoolers looking for beer money as well as plenty of single income households looking to suppliment there VISA debt."

LOL ! I think you just solved this highly complex problem !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
User avatar
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:49 am

Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card?

Absolutely.


I doubt it's legal in your country not to help somebody who is dying. And I doubt it's written in the law that you should help American citizens and spit on foreigners.
 
Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:54 am

So what you're saying is that I could be hauled off to jail for not stopping and administering first aid to the driver of that car I just saw flip over?

How long do you think I would last in, oh I don't know...let's say Paris...without being spit on, mocked, ridiculed, flipped the bird, or given a dirty glance?
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:54 am

Has Sierra Nevada made it's way to Fort Wayne yet?

I haven't seen that around much, but I'll keep my eyes peeled. BTW, if you remember Falstaff, I bet you remember Old Crown. Top shelf stuff Big grin

We were never big fans of Mellencamp. We usually had the stuff you like going like Rush, Styx, Zep, Doors, etc.

Jaysit, high-schoolers looking for beer money are society's duct-tape; there's no problem they can't fix  Laugh out loud
"Shaddap you!"
 
User avatar
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:33 am

So what you're saying is that I could be hauled off to jail for not stopping and administering first aid to the driver of that car I just saw flip over?

You really did that ? And you dare saying it ?

How long do you think I would last in, oh I don't know...let's say Paris...without being spit on, mocked, ridiculed, flipped the bird, or given a dirty glance?

And what's the link between a dirty glance and helping somebody dying ?
 
Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:38 am

hell yeah I've done that. First of all, if I wasn't involved, then as far as I know, I have no legal or moral obligation to "help". Second, I've heard too many stories about good samaritans later getting sued because the first aid they applied supposedly later got infected.

Now as to your other question, the link is in reference to your idea that all citizens of a country have some kind of obligation to be "nice" or "caring" to outsiders, whether it's in the form of a smile or giving first aid, or anything in between.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:46 am

"So what you're saying is that I could be hauled off to jail for not stopping and administering first aid to the driver of that car I just saw flip over?"

Nope. You could drive off into the sunset without a care. The law puts no obligations on you, Matt D or Joe Schmoe, to assist.

However, the ER room of a hospital has an absolute obligation to assist someone who needs emergency care.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4797
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Say No To Universal Health Care

Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:56 am

So what you're saying is that I could be hauled off to jail for not stopping and administering first aid to the driver of that car I just saw flip over?

Don't know what the laws are in the US, but in most other countries, including mine, you most certainly could. And more than rightfully so. Denying people first aid is a criminal offence in Belgium, and I'm quite sure the same goes for most other Western countries, including the US.

How long do you think I would last in, oh I don't know...let's say Paris...without being spit on, mocked, ridiculed, flipped the bird, or given a dirty glance?

If your attitude is anything like it is here on the net, I'd say 5 minutes tops. If you act like a normal person, you'd most likely have no problems.

Now as to your other question, the link is in reference to your idea that all citizens of a country have some kind of obligation to be "nice" or "caring" to outsiders, whether it's in the form of a smile or giving first aid, or anything in between.

You're comparing smiling to someone to giving first aid? Seriously? If you don't see the fundamental difference between these two, then quite frankly, you need help.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: LMP737, timz, USPIT10L and 10 guests