Matt D
Topic Author
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No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:21 am

Here we go again. Once again, a group of self-righteous, entitlement assholes congregate to demand, in so many words, that we open our borders as a free for all.

My comments are in bold italics.

You know what, I have to say that maybe it's time our leaders (calling Mr Bush) to send an ultimatum to Vicente Fox saying that this shit has got to stop. Plan of action should range anywhere from threatining to cut Mexico off from NAFTA to dropping a few bombs on Mexico City to send a little message if Mexico doesn't stop exporting its problems to the US.


I'm dead serious.

http://www.sgvtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,205~12220~1810292,00.html


Immigrants march against license repeal

Day laborers, college students and other immigrant advocates began a four-day, 45-mile march through the San Gabriel Valley to Los Angeles on Thursday, spurred by the repeal of a bill that granted driver licenses to undocumented immigrants.

The march, organized late last month when the bill's repeal seemed certain, cast driver licenses as part of a symbolic struggle for the equal status of legal and illegal immigrants in the United States -- a struggle marchers said also requires the right to a "living wage,'' affordable health care and improved education. [This is an oxymoron. Illegal immigrants are NOT equal to citizens or even legal immigrants. Yes, they are a lower form, and I'm not afraid to say it. And since when is driving a "life right"? and who do they expect to foot the bill for this so-called 'living wage'?]

Jose Calderon, a Pitzer College professor involved with the Latino Roundtable and Pomona's day labor center, organized a good portion of the march and led a rally and press conference of more than 100 people before it began.

The repeal of the driver license bill and parts of Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's economic platform are "part of a concerted attack on the poor, the elderly, and especially on immigrants,'' Calderon said. "Whenever there are tough times, people begin to blame immigrants.'' [No it's not an issue of looking for a scapegoat. It's an issue of maintaining our National sovereignty and NOT rewarding those who break our laws.]

Critics of the driver license bill, overwhelmingly opposed by California voters, [Now why do you suppose we all supported it?] say it could ease the ability of terrorists and identity thieves to obtain identification, and that people in the United States illegally should not be given documents that legitimize their status. You think?

But marchers Thursday believed that denying a driver license to immigrants - they make no distinction between legal and illegal immigrants - denies them a basic human right. Bullshit. Next they'll be saying that their religion entitles them to have as many kids as they want, and us 'evil gavachos' (and other taxpayers) should have a legal and moral obligation to lend their fellow man a helping hand.

"Mr. Schwarzenegger, our condition as immigrants does not make us criminals,'' If you are an illegal immigrant, then yes it does said the Rev. Luis Angel Nieto.

Day laborer Hernando Flores said immigrants simply want to work and provide for themselves and their families.Fine. Come here legally. And don't ask me to foot your bill.

"We are not terrorists,'' he said. "We are here to contribute to this country.'' Right. And The folks that torched all of those SUV's in West Covina a few months ago are just trying to save the planet.

After a brief rally in Claremont, which doubled as a news conference, more than 100 marchers began walking west, many carrying banners and signs, some in English and some in Spanish.

Since many marchers are undocumented day laborers who cannot afford extended time away from work That's their problem. Not mine., organizers expected that many people would drop off periodically, while others would join.

By afternoon, as the group circled a Vons parking lot in Glendora to show solidarity with striking workers, the march had dwindled to about 40 people.

"Hey hey, ho ho, corporate greed has got to go,' This is an apples-to-oranges comparison, and two separate issues. Let's stick to the one at hand. they chanted.

The marchers believe immigrants, both legal and illegal, are the backbone of America, performing much of the labor that keeps the country running. Legal immigrants, sure....but if you are so "honorable", then why do you feel the need to break the law?

In fact, Latino activist Nativo Lopez and other Latino groups are calling for a general strike Dec. 12, an attempt to flex the economic muscle of immigrants to protest the repeal of the driver license bill. Right. This is why San Diego is a World Class, city, dubbed "Americas Finest City" (and perhaps rightly so) while the next city, just south of the border is a Third World Cesspool. Kinda blows a big hole in that argument, doesn't it?

Immigrants are being encouraged by activists to stay home from work and keep their children home from school on that day. Anyone smell a rat here? These are people who claim that the world will end without them, yet here they are inciting these "honest, honorable, and decicated workers to play hookey Organizers hope that California voters will recognize the contributions of immigrants as a result of their daylong absence. If that means I can drive down harbor Blvd in naheim and not worry about being hit by some illegal driving with no license and no insurance, then you bet I will take notice to that.

The marchers planned to begin again at 8 a.m. today, and arrive at Our Lady of Guadalupe Church in El Monte by nightfall. On Saturday they will stop at St. Stephen's Church in Monterey Park.

The march will end Sunday at the Federal Building at 312 N. Spring St. in downtown Los Angeles, where a rally will be held at 2:30 p.m.




 
L-188
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:24 am

If they can walk 45 miles, why do they need a car?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Matt D
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:26 am

That's a damn good question L-188! I'd like to know that too!
 
L-188
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:28 am

And in only four days!

You figure they had to sleep for a couple, so you just know that number is inflated.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ProSimTec
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:31 am

This looks like a good opportunity to deport some illegals. Hope there are lots of Immigration Officers there to check for green cards.



 
gamps
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:36 am

While I am against giving license to illegals, they do have a compelling argument. MattD I would like to know your thoughts on it.

Their main argument is: Without a license we can't have insurance. Thus resulting in illegal immigrants driving without insurance and during the accident other party has to go through all the loops to get insurance money for damage, healthcare. The almost daily head-on collisions near Gilroy, Halfmoon Bay, Sacremento almost always invovles illegal immigrants driving without insurance.

Ofcourse insurance companies are already milking us for collision with "non-insured driver"

May be compromise is giving them some sort of ID using which they can get drivers insurance? Again, where to stop? Next demand may be healthcare etc.

JMO.
 
Matt D
Topic Author
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:38 am

This should be a black-and-white, open-and-shut case:

Come here legally, we'll work with you.

Come here ILlegally, you get nothing.
 
L-188
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:38 am

Without a license we can't have insurance. Thus resulting in illegal immigrants driving without insurance


Without a license they aren't supposed to be driving the FIRST place!

What they hell do they need car insurance for if they are supposed to be taking the bus.


Those illegals that are causing the accidents deserve jail time and deportation, let their prison wages pay for the plane ticket south.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
KROC
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:38 am

Their main argument is: Without a license we can't have insurance. Thus resulting in illegal immigrants driving without insurance and during the accident other party has to go through all the loops to get insurance money for damage, healthcare.

Where is the argument??? They cannot get a license because they are in this country ILLEGALLY. That means they have no business here, no buisness driving or whatever. When they are here legally, by all means let them get a license, and insurance etc.
 
777fan
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:40 am

The key word is "illegal." Want a license, do it the legal way.......

They should not be in the country, so they don't need licenses......so they don't need insurance.

Rgds,

Greg
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
gamps
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:53 am

Agreed, they have no business being here. But been on I-5 of late? Or Halfmoon Bay or heck even the Napa Valley Vineyards? Almost 3 out of 4 farm workers are illegals according to surveys. So let us not pretend that these guys don't exist.

So these guys are here already and make sure we get our oranges, wine etc - it is a fact and fact is also that they ARE driving whether we like it or not. So question really is do you want them driving without insurance or with insurance?

Again, I am saying all this only for argument sake. I think issuing DL will be a bad precedent.

JMO.
 
sr117
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:06 am

You know what, I have to say that maybe it's time our leaders (calling Mr Bush) to send an ultimatum to Vicente Fox saying that this shit has got to stop. Plan of action should range anywhere from threatining to cut Mexico off from NAFTA to dropping a few bombs on Mexico City to send a little message if Mexico doesn't stop exporting its problems to the US.

Once again, we sure are glad you're not a foreign diplomat !!!

I'm sure you'd looooove to have us blocked off and unable to have any contact with the US, but it's just not gonna happen, you can whine and whine and whine from here to eternity, but the integration of the two countries is going to increase as time passes, you need only see demographic statistics to see that there's no turning back.

I'll say this and say it again, there is -dependency- on both sides of the border, wether you admit it (or even fathom it) or not you need us, and we need you. You even wondered why when the peso crashed in 94, Bill Clinton came rushing to our aid? If there would have been a total collapse of the mexican economy it would have been bad for us and for, you do -not- want to have a country in shambles next door, it's in the US's best interest for us. to be economically stable, that helps solve the problem of illegal immigration cause it eliminates part of the need for it.

This is why San Diego is a World Class, city, dubbed "Americas Finest City" (and perhaps rightly so) while the next city, just south of the border is a Third World Cesspool. Kinda blows a big hole in that argument, doesn't it?

Wow, do you have an economics major?? you've studied up on world history and economic development?? yeah I thought so. I'd love to hear your in-depth analisis on the subject of the interaction between the world class city and the third world cesspool !!.. you seem to be oblivious to the raison d'etre of the "developing" world and how we all work together, globalisation makes us more dependent on each other and unfortunatley it also shares problems.


 
cfalk
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:32 am

Their main argument is: Without a license we can't have insurance.

Why not do what they do in Switzerland? When you buy your car, the seller keeps his licence plates. It is your responsibility to put plates on the car, and in order to get the plates, you must present a proof of insurance certificate and the car's grey card (sort of a registration/proof of ownership). You cannot get plates without insurance.

Once you have the plates, and you stop paying the insurance premiums, the insurance company calls the authorities and they come to your home and confiscate the plates, to be returned once you provide proof of insurance again.

It works pretty well here.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
cfalk
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:36 am

What the hell are these hyperlinks that keep popping up in my post?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
KROC
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:49 am

SR117. You are missing the point. Nobody is trying to keep Mexicans out, or block you off or whatever. If you are Mexican and in this country LEGALLY...Welcome. Enjoy everything this country has to offer. If you are here ILLEGALLY, then you have no business crying about not being able to get drivers licenses, and whatever, and you certainly have no right to get free medical care at the expense of John Q. Taxpayer. You need to open your eyes and see this isn't about Mexicans. It's about being in this country 'legally' and 'illegally'. There is a right and wrong there.
 
Marcus
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:59 am

Don't waste your time SR117.......this is a discussion started by Matt D, you know it is nothing more than a post with the sole intention to offend and be a flamebait, you know it violates more than one forum rules, but you know it will not matter because of his close relationship with some moderators on this forums, you know these moderators will not be impartial and uphold the respect for the forum rules and guidelines, you know they will turn a blind eye to this situation, and ironically they will even contribute to the breaking of the forum rules.............you know at the end, when the originator of this discussion runs out of arguments for his point of view he will chicken out and let his army of apologists do the dirty work for him.

Don't waste your time.......................
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
Matt D
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:08 am

I guess some people can't seem to differentiate between what is lawful and what is NOT lawful.

Maybe they figure that by screaming about how 'racist' and 'flamebaiting' I am, they can divert attention away from the real issue. A time honored Liberal tactic I might add.

And of course we cannot forget human nature, which is to come out swinging blindly because you know that you are backed into a corner and have nowhere to go, no leg to stand on, and no argument.

And lastly, there are no 'apologists' in this discussion. Merely people who see and recognize the truth.

Thank you. That is all.
 
Marcus
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:12 am

I just love it when I'm right!  Smile
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
cfalk
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:41 am

Marco, I don't understand your position. Are you saying that people should have the right to migrate freely wherever they wish, without bothering to deal with the normal immigration process, or pay taxes, etc.? You're advocating chaos.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
sr117
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:43 am

And lastly, there are no 'apologists' in this discussion. Merely people who see and recognize the truth

Right and we all know who's the one and only thruth bearer.

I'll keep this short

I never justified immigration or said to give them licenses, I just merely tried to point out that it's quite a complicated process with many deep rooted causes. Illegal immigration is indeed a problem and to solve it requires lots of work on both sides of the border. To hear "solutions" like "Let's cancel NAFTA" or "Let's bomb Mexico City" is about as amusing as saying "wooooo let's bomb the WTC!". That's what I take offense to.
 
KROC
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:45 am

SR117 - I have never seen anyone suggest "Lets bomb Mexico City".  Insane
 
Marcus
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:53 am

Marco, I don't understand your position. Are you saying that people should have the right to migrate freely wherever they wish, without bothering to deal with the normal immigration process, or pay taxes, etc.? You're advocating chaos.
********************************

I'll keep it simple so you will understand.........."hmmmmmm no"

Go and reread my posts.......you will never see anything to make you think that.


SR117 - I have never seen anyone suggest "Lets bomb Mexico City".
***************************

I have..........on the first post.
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
FDXmech
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:42 am

I think drivers license's for illegals is a good idea.

and while were at it...

Why not have drivers licenses for people with a revoked drivers license?

Why not have drivers license for people who fail the driving test?

Why not issue a drivers license with those with a suspended license?





You're only as good as your last departure.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 11:38 am

should I even bother again?

I'd hesitate to say complaining about illegals is best left for the uneducated, but.......

Aside from your right as an American to complain about it, I've never heard a decent string of arguments for closing our borders so tightly.

If the Native Americans "closed their boarders" to the Mayflower, none of us would be here now would we?

In that end, I feel most of you allow the first ammendment to protect your ignorance and bigotry of others. I would techincally blame it on lack of education, or at least call it racism due to ignorance.

People coming into this country legally or illegally doesn't do anything but make our society a bit more competitive. Sorry you have to learn another language, it's almost Darwinism, adapt or persish. If illegal Mexican immigrants can do it, I'm sure you can too.

George
They're not handing trophies out today
 
covert
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:07 pm

Their main argument is: Without a license we can't have insurance.

Why not do what they do in Switzerland? When you buy your car, the seller keeps his licence plates. It is your responsibility to put plates on the car, and in order to get the plates, you must present a proof of insurance certificate and the car's grey card (sort of a registration/proof of ownership). You cannot get plates without insurance.

Once you have the plates, and you stop paying the insurance premiums, the insurance company calls the authorities and they come to your home and confiscate the plates, to be returned once you provide proof of insurance again.

It works pretty well here.

Charles


Same exact procedure in Pennsylvania. People get around it, and many still drive without licences and insurance.

covert
none
 
cicadajet
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:34 pm

Illegal immigration from Mexico to the USA is not inevitable. It just takes political will to put an end to it.

Build a wall if neccesary.

Let prisoners do the farmwork if neccesary.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:02 pm

I'll post it again, this applies to a number of you:

Oops! You're racist.... ----- http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart
They're not handing trophies out today
 
RNOcommctr
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:35 pm

MattD, you are a hateful and bigoted individual. I chastise myself for even stooping to respond to yet another of your offensive posts.

Relatively few people advocate licenses for "illegals". I can see both sides of the argument. But I think your opinions are just generally anti-Mexican.

The comment about bombing Mexico City is inexcusable. My wife (here legally, by the way) and her family are from Mexico City and I take tremendous offense to your comment.

And you apparently could care less about the feelings of our many fine a.net members from Mexico who so diligently keep us up to date on Mexican aviation.
Active loading only, ma'am, keep it moving!
 
L-188
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:48 pm

Build a wall if neccesary.

Actually I belive there is already a 40 mile fence between San Diego and Tiajuana.

They want to add something like another 15 miles, but the evironmentalists are threating to sue to stop it.

Apparently some rat is going to be seperated from it's relatives.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
cfalk
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:56 pm

Same exact procedure in Pennsylvania. People get around it, and many still drive without licences and insurance.

How can you get around it, unless enforcement was very lax?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
covert
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:34 pm

How can you get around it, unless enforcement was very lax?

You must present proof of insurance in order to receive plates. Do you know how easy it is to pay the down payment, get your insurance card and cancel? For that matter, Photoshop works good too...

What they need to do is allow notaries to tap into the insurance computer and verify real time that the insurance policy is in effect.

covert
none
 
cfalk
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:42 pm

Here, the insurance immediately informs the authorities that your insurance with them is no longer valid. The insurance companies and the traffic authorities are all but on-line with each other. They know the day you cancel an insurance policy, they look for a new policy being opened elsewhere, or you get a letter telling you to deliver your plates, and if you don't, police will show up at 6 or 7 in the morning and take them.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Matt D
Topic Author
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:09 am

Just explain this to me:


SAN DIEGO:







....AND Tijuana:







Need I say more?

 
CactusA319
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:56 am


Geez Matty, now I see your point. Let's just bomb the shit out of Tijuana, nobody will miss that cesspool  Yeah sure

What do those pictures have to do with anything?

 
BlatantEcho
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:57 am

Matt D-

The socio-economic plight of one town in one country has nothing to do with anything, expect showing the way you defalut to posting pictures when you get owned by the reason and logic of others.

I guess it prooves Mexicans are inferior, because they don't live in an overexpansive ugly American grid that is San Diego. That place is a perfect example of what NOT to do when you're building a city.

In any event, I won't follow your derailment of this thread any further.

-------------------
The borders should be open for anyone to come in, just like they were for YOUR ancestors many years ago. Mayflower sure wasn't "legal" immigration.

At least Mexicans just want to live in America, not kill all of us and take over our land, and put the "whites" on reservations.

George
They're not handing trophies out today
 
Matt D
Topic Author
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:09 am

The whole point of the pictures was in reference to some of you who defend illegal immigration by saying, in so many words, that they are "vital" to our economic well being.

If that is true, then why is THEIR side of the border in such shambles? I have a hard time swallowing the argument about them being an economic powerhouse when they can't even seem to take care of their own land.

It would be like asking Elizabeth Taylor or Billy Bob Thornton for advice on establishing a long lasting marriage.

The borders should be open for anyone to come in

With all due respect BlatantEcho, WTF are you talking about? According to your profile, you are between age 16-20, which means you are most likely still living at home-or at best, scraping your way through college.


Why don't you get off your mommas titties, get out in the real world, pay your OWN way, 100%, and then tell me how charitable I should be.

It sounds to me like you're suggesting that we simply eliminate all borders, and create a de facto One Nation Earth. I mean maintaining and controling territorial sovereignty would serve no purpose otherwise.

 
BlatantEcho
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:48 am

Matt D-

Should I change my age in my profile for you? I don't think that will let you grasp my point any better.

In the end, this is the land of the free. If you fear outside competition, fine, I don't know what to tell you......go back to school?

If you are just opposed to outsiders coming into this country, then take a look at how you and I got here in the first place.

Mexican laborers generally aren't very skilled, so they probably aren't competeing with your middle managment job. Maybe they take your women?

In the end, the only thing you have left to rely on in this is that you are uneducated or racist, either one, maybe both.

Look at your roots, and what if the Native Americans turned YOUR familes ship around. Well, you wouldn't be supporting the USA legal system so much if you didn't live here huh? Your roots, unless you crossed the Alaskan Sea Bridge, are as illegal as anyone elses.

George
They're not handing trophies out today
 
cfalk
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:20 am

George,

Modern society is based is based on the rule of law. Immigration must be controlled by all countries, as vast migrations have dramatic impact on everything from infrastructure to social services. Imagine what would happen if the U.S. suddenly declared its borders open to everyone. There are litterally hundreds of millions of people around the world that would try to get to the U.S. as fast as they could, from as far away as Asia, Africa and the Middle East, not to mention South and Central America. Where will they live? Shantytowns? How will they get sanitation? Who will pay? Etc etc.

Borders are there for a reason.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
sr117
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:21 am

Wow ! thanks Matt !!! That second pic of Tijuana you posted, that's my house over there ! right above the old tire stairway, if you look closeley on the window you can see me saying hi !  Smile

I like the wall idea, it could be like the great wall of china, a big tourist attraction !
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:44 am

Cfalk-

Most borders are absolutely arbitrary. Some are just geographically easy (see rivers and mountain ranges) but for the most part, they are a tool of convinence.

Africa and Iraq are good examples. Borders were drawn there for the good of corporations taking part in imperialism, no other reason. Tell the people who got borders right through their communities how important a line is to them. Go talk to Pakistan.

But borders has a little to do with this as anything else, RACISM is the key. I guess the flood of Irish immigrants in the 1900s ruined this country?

1/4 of this country claims to be part Irish, but they aren't living in the same squalor and shanties they might have inhabbited for a few years in New York City. No, they adapted and moved about the country, make as much progress as the next guy.

Why not Mexicans? Should we route them through Elise Island again and Americanize Miguel into Mickey? Would that make you happy?

It's just racism against people who might work harder than you, and the racist might be left out of a job sweeping floors at Wal-Mart.

Will this country collpase because more people enter it? If so, give imperical evidence how, considering it hasn't yet in 200 years.

George
They're not handing trophies out today
 
cfalk
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:07 am

George,

You have obviously been taught by some rather left-wing history teachers.

I'm not going to give you a whole rundown on what they SHOULD be teaching you. But just to begin openning your eyes a little bit, I recommend Charles Van Duren's A History of Knowledge

You should also learn to think in relation to the times. 100 years ago or so, it did not matter to unleash masses of migrants loose in the wild, because the land they settled was largely empty and unclaimed. Nobody cared if these people did not have sewage, clean water, electricity, local schools, or health care. That is no longer the case anymore.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
cicadajet
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:27 am

It surely did not serve the Native Americans well that they did not in fact repulse the European "White Man".

To keep bringing that up again and again actually reinforces the notion that immigration must be "controlled".

Most especially in need of control are those who wish to "colonize" America and retain their dysfunctional cultures. And think that every street corner needs to have signs in 12 languages and so on...

That is not to say that immigrants to America in 2003 do not make valuable contrabutions in both skilled professions and in regards to "cheap labor" as well. They do both. They are needed and must be appreciated....

However, it completely irresponsbile and unreasonable to think thousands of people over-running the border can be a "good thing" ipso facto because the Statue of Liberty is in New York harbor or different circumstances obtained over 100 years ago.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:32 am

Cfalk -

so you're claim would be that this country, America is at it's absolute ecological breaking point, as is, say, China. EMPERICAL EVIDENCE PLEASE.

Are you saying despite housing growing at a rapid pace AGAIN this month, that we couldn't build houses for more people?

How do your baseless asserctions relate to this thread, seems like you're just trying to hide from the truth. Our country can support a lot more peoeple, and we have the space to add tens of millions more before we get anywhere NEAR the density of some Asian countries.

As for the left wing. That's just a cheap shot sterotype. You don't know me from adam, and my ideological preference doesn't weight into the carrying capcity of this country one bit.

George
They're not handing trophies out today
 
cicadajet
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:05 am

- If you are just opposed to outsiders coming into this country, then take a look at how you and I got here in the first place. -

_______________________________________________________________

Thomas Sowell has coined a clever phrase recently.

"Is myopic selfishness supposed to be a moral obligation?"

In other words...is there a sound argument that if anyone benefited from a specific policy, they should never oppose it?

Is there no one that has benefited from a policy, directly or indirectly, that may not, upon examination of the facts, come to oppose it?

"Are the duties of a citizen, not to mention the duty to be honest and truthful, to be over-ridden by what happened to benefit me personally? "


 
cfalk
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:39 am

so you're claim would be that this country, America is at it's absolute ecological breaking point, as is, say, China. EMPERICAL EVIDENCE PLEASE.

Where did I make that claim?

Are you saying despite housing growing at a rapid pace AGAIN this month, that we couldn't build houses for more people?

Numbers, dude! Do you think that it would be possible to build housing for 20, 30, 50 million new immigrants per year? That's how many will be coming in, at least. Each of these homes must be built according to safety and sanitation codes, How many homes can the construction industry build in the US? Maybe one tenth of that number. And they are contributing to the urban sprawl that's out of control in the U.S..

Our country can support a lot more people, and we have the space to add tens of millions more before we get anywhere NEAR the density of some Asian countries.

Where would all these immigrants go? You mentioned that the U.S. has more space... You think they will move to the wilds of Montana or Alaska? Hell no - they will go to LA, New York, Houston, and other places that are already way to big.

As for the left wing. That's just a cheap shot stereotype. You don't know me from adam, and my ideological preference doesn't weight into the carrying capcity of this country one bit.

Trust me, it does. And I can smell a liberal education at 20 paces.

The Van Duren book I recommended is also a bit left of center in its interpretations, but his reasoning, factual data and conclusions are pretty damned good. I recommended him to you because I know that you won't be able to throw it out as "rightist propaganda". Read the book, and you will better understand how uneducated you sounded today.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:58 am

funny how combating racism = uneducated.

-----------
What it seems to me, is you defaulted, AGAIN, to assumptions and assertions. You assert people will flock to Los Angelos, based on what? That is where the jobs are?

Have you ever even hired a Mexican laborer?

----------
You assert that 50 million people would flock to this country. How? Seriously, how. They going to walk accross the atlantic? Everyone from Canada will pick up and leave their homes for here? Sure.

-----------
I wasn't liberal educated, I hate liberals just as much as you don't understand them. Private catholic education ain't lefty.

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Conclusion: You again didn't do anything to further your cause but asses a situation from accross one continent, and an ocean, and try and mock my higher education. Great.

I've offered historical, geopolitical, and ecological evidence to support immigration in MASS forms, of the magnitude this country has seen before, being possible. I'm not for it, it might overcrowed us a bit until we spread out, but it is certainly not without precedent.

And STILL, haven't seen one person come up with a good reason to keep people out of this country just because we've thrown up a border , yet our lands our still geopgraphically connected.

You STILL haven't done anything to distance yourself from the english definition of racism, and I am only left to wonder if you're just some crusty old man who's too stuck in his ways to want anyone else to maybe take a piece of his pie. (I also argue this is an ignorant claim, but we can get to that some other time)

You will now say I have proved my ignorance. But I'm not out to prove my education either. I'm out to convince you that you are wrong, and show your racism. That or have you proove to me, without crappy rhetoric, that illegal immigration is detrimental to the standard of living in my country, and should be stopped at all costs.

George

[spelling]

[Edited 2003-12-06 23:01:41]
They're not handing trophies out today
 
cfalk
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:41 pm

I wasn't liberal educated, I hate liberals just as much as you don't understand them. Private catholic education ain't lefty.

I was also educated in private Catholic schools in the U.S. By the Jesuits, in fact. But that's neither here nor there. It's where your teachers came from, and who their teachers were, as well as those of family and friends. You are too young to have developed your own view of the world. Your age and language used indicate that you are regurgitating what others have taught you. I don't blame you for this. At your age there's not much choice. But the first step in obtaining wisdom is recognizing that you are ignorant.

Read A History of Knowledge. In doing so you will be much better informed about how knowledge works over time, as well as recognize how superficial your traditional history classes have been. Also check out Steven Ambrose's last book To America. Also a little bit leftist, but at least he recognizes it, and discusses where his early biases came from and how. You might find it familiar.

What it seems to me, is you defaulted, AGAIN, to assumptions and assertions. You assert people will flock to Los Angelos, based on what? That is where the jobs are?

Travel the world, and you find that an incredible proportion of people want to go to the U.S.. Doubtless a lot of Middle Eastern terrorists would jump at the chance if they could get a green card. My Filipino housekeeper keeps asking me for advice on how he and his family could move to America. The U.S. does have this aura of a place where anything is possible, ironically, especially in those parts of the world where there is a lot of resentment for the U.S. If you still doubt, check it out for yourself http://uscis.gov/graphics/index.htm.

You assert that 50 million people would flock to this country. How? Seriously, how. They going to walk across the Atlantic? Everyone from Canada will pick up and leave their homes for here? Sure.

Those in South America could walk, others will find ways. Remember that current smuggler's prices range from $5,000 to $40,000, and they manage to transport millions of people each year. Imagine what the market would be like if United Airlines can offer the same service in more comfort, for only $1,000, because you don't have to worry about the INS sending you back.

I've offered historical, geopolitical, and ecological evidence to support immigration in MASS forms, of the magnitude this country has seen before, being possible.

That bit must have been deleted by a mod, because I see no such evidence. Only arguments woefully ignorant of law and infrastructure. Yes, it's possible, but the result will be slums like you've never seen before, as there simply won't be the jobs or housing to take them in. Period.

And STILL, haven't seen one person come up with a good reason to keep people out of this country just because we've thrown up a border , yet our lands our still geopgraphically connected

You see that your neighbor's house is much nicer than yours, and you know he has a spare bedroom. Why shouldn't you simply move in?

You STILL haven't done anything to distance yourself from the english definition of racism, and I am only left to wonder if you're just some crusty old man who's too stuck in his ways to want anyone else to maybe take a piece of his pie.

I am married to a black woman and our daughter is half-and-half. Don't you dare lecture me about racism, and of keeping others out.

That or have you proove to me, without crappy rhetoric, that illegal immigration is detrimental to the standard of living in my country, and should be stopped at all costs.

At ALL costs? I never said that. I don't propose seeding the border between California and Texas with millions of landmines, which would probably be the most cost effective method. But mass migration to urban centers is a classic problem in terms of infrastructure is concerned. We are no longer in the 19th century, when you could let a guy go out with nothing, and nowhere to live or no job. Before, you called him a settler. Now you have to call him a homeless person.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:19 am

Hey, now you're talking, but you're still wrong.

The current rate of immigration, from Mexico, is approximately 150,000 -200,000 persons a year, of which 50,000- 60,000 are legal. (Democratic Responses to Global Challanges p493)

Law, in this case is abritrary, because we have a line through the dessert that seperates people while no ethinic, religious, or gepgraphical seperations naturally lie. Course, the Southwest was, at one point, all Mexico's land too, which we effectively forced them to give to us. But that's another story. (see biography of Santa Anna and his exile, return, and exile)

------------
Sooooooooo......

This thread is about Illegal Mexican immigration anyway.

Stop pulling this junk about my education. I can keep up with you, and that is all that is pertinent here.

The argument continues to be that Illegal immigrants are detrimental to society. They put a burden on welfare, education, and infastructure.

Well, consult your history books, becuase Mexican immigration was encouraged during WWII, and subesquently discouraged, and then again encouraged as the economy cycled up and down.

Why? Mexicans do the jobs Americans won't do in good times, and in bad, might consider. When it's bad times (now) American's sometimes look to do whatever they can, and if you see a Mexican who has had the job cleaning toilets for 3 years now, all you see is a Mexican taking your job.

Someone's got to do it.

But you still don't want Mexicans in YOUR country....
-------------
Sure fire way to keep people where they are, make their lives better. NAFTA was a start (or was I too young for that.......)

-Help reduce the massive Mexican debt. (in 1987 it was 70% of the GNP)

-Help invest in jobs in Mexico as opposed to a bigger border.

-Help turn drug growers into other crop farmers.

Mexico is less and less master of its own destiny. The US can step in and help its neighbor, or continue to bitch about the dirty Mexicans that keep streaming into this country and robbing us of our jobs.

Unmitigated immigration, legal and illegal, might strain our resources somewhat, but fighting against people's desire for a better life is not something we should fight, in fact, it is what a certain lady in NY is all about.

You invest in Mexico, you work with Fox and co. to embrace those who come here, but work to get their country on its own feet and watch the people suddenly find there own country is right where they want to be.

George
They're not handing trophies out today
 
jaysit
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:20 am

Just a footnote...

Nonsensical and silly critiques of "liberal" education aside (what else is there besides liberal education? Nothing really. The term liberal education is nothing more than a term of art that covers a comprehensive study of the humanities and the sciences allowing for independent critical thinking.), the deification of "A History of Knowledge" is absurd. The book is a GREAT read, but imbued with all sorts of unsubstantiated assumptions. You grant Van Doren latitude because the book is a synopsis and basically a really good airplane book. Throwing the book around like a brickbat against someone who disagrees with you is pointless. The book is not the ultimate word delivered to Western society by some modern day Oracle of Delphi. Its a history book that makes a lot of high school history books seem dull in comparison because of the writer's fluid style and ability to link seemingly disparate events seemlessly.

Ambrose's "To America" is hardly "leftist." He just summarizes the American historical record in a folksy manner and critiques those on the PC-left as well as the blinded-right with panache. To shriek against leftist influences in American politics (trade unions, the great society initiatives, etc) is to not fully comprehend the historical era under which these occurred. The history of American capitalism as an instititution that is free, relatively transparent, and open to all is tied into the entire historical checks and balances that were the intended and unintended consequences of political measures by both the left and the right. And Ambrose recognizes that.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
cfalk
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RE: No Licenses For Illegals Part II

Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:14 am

Jaysit,

I did not mean those books as the end-all and be-all of liturature. Just a start on a path which hopefully causes the reader to question what they are taught by others and to learn to put things into perspective. Like we've said in other threads, depending on any single source is a mistake.

I said Ambrose was a bit leftist because of his lapses into nature-hugging, weren't we terribly cruel to the Indians, and a few other views. But generally, he does a decent job of recognizing his own bias and where it comes from. Even though I occasionally disagree with him, I enjoy reading Ambrose. (Have to note that "To America" was the last thing he wrote before his death, and it seems to consist of various unfinished threads that were pieced together by his editor). It is by no means a history book.

And by the way, who's "shrieking against leftist influences in American politics"? I'm not. Just don't trust them, any more than you should trust rightist influences like Pat Robertson, et co. Don't trust anyone, but listen to all and make your own mind.

Charles

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.

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