flyyul
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Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:52 am

Ahem....

The news today out of Canada.com is that http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/story.asp?id=F3CB7F89-47DB-4FBE-B7F3-E0B80063352D

Quebec has been by far the no.1 producer of jobs in North America for the last 3 months.

The gap between employment rates between Montreal and Toronto ahs been cut in half, and Montreal's unemployment rate is now 1% higher than Toronto's.

Yet on this board, I recall literally years of bashing .. poor economic forecasts.

One users mentionned that Quebec would likely have the "poorest" performance, this according to predictions from the Conference Board of Toronto.

Quebec has produced more jobs than the USA combined for the year 2003 cummulative... now that cant be good, given that our population is about 35 times smaller  Big thumbs up (No USA bashing here, much love and respect here!)....

Just wanted to ensure that those who bash, have their crow tonight  Big thumbs up

Best Regards,
Mark
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 8:43 am

Quebec, that's in Canada right?
 Smile
 
JeffM
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:32 am

Thanks... I'm sure we all really care. But thanks any way. Enjoy your job.

 
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yyz717
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:44 am

Prosperity does not happen in 3 months. Quebec remains one of the poorest jurisdictions in North America with per capita GDP only 90% of the Cdn average, which itself is below the US avg.

The following article/study shows how far Quebec has fallen behind in the last 40 years. Hence, your recent "3 month job growth" is a mere blip...it's irrelevant.

If providing true (but unflattering) commentary about Quebec is bashing, then I guess I'm bashing.  Insane

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=565

Quebec Should Be a Leader, Not a Laggard, in Prosperity and Jobs
Contact(s):
Fred McMahon, Director of the Centre for Globalization Studies
The Fraser Institute, Tel (604) 714-4569
Email: fredm@fraserinstitute.ca

Filip Palda, Senior Fellow
The Fraser Institute, Tel (514) 990-5204
Email: Filip_Palda@enap.ca

Release Date: November 24, 2003

Montreal, QC - Decades of bad public policy have left Quebecers poorer and with unemployment levels higher than they need to be. Those are the conclusions of a new Fraser Institute study Quebec Prosperity: Taking the Next Step

“Most people don’t realize how poorly Quebec actually performs when compared to similar jurisdictions,” says Fred McMahon, the study’s author and senior analyst at The Fraser Institute. Of the major industrial provinces and US states, Quebec has by far the worst record in job and wealth creation.

“Looked at another way,” McMahon notes, “if Quebec were an independent nation, it would be the 6th poorest among advanced OECD nations, ahead of only South Korea, Portugal, Greece, New Zealand, and Spain.”

Yet, it shouldn’t be this way. “Quebec has a large, urbanized, industrious, well-educated work force. It sits next door to the world’s most vibrant and richest market. It is on one of the planet’s greatest natural transportation networks, the St. Lawrence/Great Lakes system,” McMahon notes. “Normally, this would be a recipe for immense prosperity and low unemployment – not the reverse.”

The paper argues that governments in Quebec have over-taxed and over-regulated the people of Quebec, inhibiting their ability to create jobs and wealth. The government has tried to manage the economy itself, something that has never led to economic success.

"The people of Quebec are among the most highly taxed in Canada -- more highly taxed than many in the United States or, for that matter, Mexico -- but it’s hard to argue they enjoy some of the best government services in North America,” says Filip Palda, senior fellow at The Fraser Institute. “The Quebec government should get out of the way and allow Quebecers to build their own future."

Highlights:


Quebec has failed to close the gap with average economic activity in the rest of Canada. In 1961, Quebec’s per capita GDP was 90 percent of the Canadian average. It’s still about 90 percent of the Canadian average.


Far from catching up, job creation in Quebec consistently under performs job creation in Ontario and the Canadian provincial average. Since 1990, job creation across Canada has been nearly 50 percent higher than in Quebec.


Total government spending (as a percentage of the economy) in Quebec surpasses that in any US state or industrialized province. Quebec’s spending is exceeded only by Manitoba and the four Atlantic Provinces, where spending is heavily subsidized by various federal programs.


Quebec, along with Prince Edward Island, ranks at the bottom of the ratings for economic freedom in North America. Economic freedom is a key driver of growth and prosperity in North America.


Recommendations

To live up to its economic potential -- and provide a more prosperous life for its citizens with improved employment opportunities -- Quebec should:


Reduce expenditures, with an immediate goal of becoming competitive with the size of government in Ontario and a longer-term goal of becoming competitive with industrialized US states.


Reduce the tax burden faced by the people of Quebec. Here again, the immediate goal should be to become competitive with Ontario with the longer-term goal of becoming competitive with US states.


Reorganize its tax structure to make use of economically efficient taxes and reduce use of inefficient taxes. A good first step would be the elimination of the corporate capital tax.


Simplify the tax structure; one option would be to move to a single tax as Alberta has.


Increase flexibility in the labour market. Employees and employers should have more freedom in dealing with each other and with unions.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
cptkrell
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:13 am

Well, I certainly hope Quebec well in coming around to the real world (unless it's just a temporary blip on the screen as others have suggested). Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
KROC
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:24 am

Thanks for that info. We were all waiting on pins and needles for it.

Signed, Nobody
 
airplay
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:45 am

Prosperity does not happen in 3 months. Quebec remains one of the poorest jurisdictions in North America with per capita GDP only 90% of the Cdn average, which itself is below the US avg.


More "Frasier Institute" rhetoric. I think the Frasier Instutite has full time writers to bash Quebec. Anything from this "right wing think tank" should be taken with a grain of salt as they represent an extremist view. Don't take anything these guys say (or "spew") without researching it yourself.

Quebec contains probably the most misunderstood culture and people in North America. English Canada refuses to recognize the rich historical significance of the French decendants and Americans seem to just plain hate Quebecers because they look and sound "foreign" to them.

I've spent alot of time in the region and have taken the time to learn about its history. I suggest those who chose to post negatively do a little research themselves...and I hope that the powers that be recognize that KROC's contribution to this thread is about as irresponsible as a moderator's message can get.

Aren't the moderators supposed to detect and prevent flamebait? And NOT provide it? Aren't they supposed to moderate, and not escalate?

 
flyyul
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:02 pm

Montreal and Quebec have consistently outperformed the TOronto economy for the last 3 years. Over 300,000 jobs have been produced in the last 3 years in Quebec, which is more than any other state/province in North America.

Unfortunately the Frasier loving YYZ717 has lost yet another rhetoric battle.

Mark
 
cptkrell
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:13 pm

I can only relate from personal experiences (in the 1980s and early 90s), not from heresay. My visits to Quebec were, at best, very uncomfortable because of the locals. I should think that it was THEIR percerption of Americans that caused tension rather than the other way around, as I (and we) made extended efforts to be courteous visitors. Sorry, I won't choose to visit again (and my company chose to close down a major facility, too, although I believe - and hope - business relations are currently somewhat better).

In the context that Airplay professes, I would opine that it is the folks in Quebec who are overly centrist, even extremist, and misunderstanding of others' cultures. Kind regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
airplay
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:22 pm

My visits to Quebec were, at best, very uncomfortable because of the locals.......I would opine that it is the folks in Quebec who are overly centrist, even extremist, and misunderstanding of others' cultures.

This is quite a common comment. Many visitors fully expect Quebecers to conform to what is percieved as the North American status quo when it comes to personal interaction. If Quebecers don't bend over backward to understand and speak English, and accomodate every whim that visitors are accustomed to in other regions in North America they are considered inhospitable. I savour the difference in our cultures not condemn and fear it.

I wonder how a francophone Quebecer would be received if he suddenly found himself in an average US city? I would hazard a guess that he/she would be expected to conform to the local culture before anyone would interact. Would that mean that the visiting Quebecer should consider the locals "misunderstanding of others' cultures."??
 
flyyul
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:38 pm

Cptkrell,

Your experience is isolated... but if you were outside the Montreal metro, I wouldnt be surprised.

Mark
 
cptkrell
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:39 pm

Airplay; if you actually read my statement before knee-jerking, you will see that I qualified my impressions by stating that I (we) made even extra efforts to be courteous visitors (as I always do when visiting another country).

When I am in another country I make sure that I try my best to adhere to their cultures, laws, courtesies, try my best to communicate using their language, etc. I might interject that as an American in France, I found the French populace to be some of the nicest, friendliest, helping people I have ever met. Not so in Quebec. Kind regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
flyyul
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:55 pm

"Not so in Quebec"

With all due respect sir, I realize you had a rought time, not everybody has a pleasant time.

But the Quebec (more specifically the Montreal and Quebec City regions) are huge American tourist spots. They most definitely cater to their needs in such a way, that the tourism numnbers continue to soar on a yearly basis (www.tourisme-montreal.org) .... I have been to pretty much every major urban market in North America, and I have not yet met a friendlier city than Montreal/Vancouver, in my opinion of course.

Mark
 
cptkrell
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:20 pm

"...I have not yet met a friendlier city than Montreal/Vancouver, in my opinion of course."

Well, Mark, I really LOVE Vancouver and revisit when possible. But, Montreal and Vancouver are sort of like Buffalo and L.A. proximity-wise, eh? Like I said, after three visits to Quebec, I'll choose not to go again as opposed to hoping for yet another opportunity for Vancouver (or across the river to Windsor, for that matter). Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
flyyul
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:23 pm

Cptkrell,

well its unfortunate.. ill bet the next time youll come, youd have a blast.


mark
 
captaingomes
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:24 pm

Jack will probably say ... 3 strikes and you're out. LOL
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:22 pm

I have been to pretty much every major urban market in North America, and I have not yet met a friendlier city than Montreal/Vancouver, in my opinion of course.

Anecdotal evidence from 20yo YUL'er. It must be true.  Insane

Let's talk about Quebec's economic "growth" when they start contributing to Canada's national finances (as do Alberta & Ontario), instead of drawing on them.

Gee whiz..... does the above comments make me a racist again?  Insane
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:29 pm

"Anecdotal evidence from 20yo YUL'er. It must be true. "

-No... from Conde Nest which ranked Montreal the 2nd best place to visit in Canada after Quebec City. Obviously they would know a little more than right wing YYZ717.

"Let's talk about Quebec's economic "growth" when they start contributing to Canada's national finances (as do Alberta & Ontario), instead of drawing on them."

-I dont know whats clear enough.



 
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yyz717
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:39 pm

-I dont know whats clear enough.

When equalization payments to Quebec above & beyond all the taxes that Quebecers pay, stop. The same applies to the other 7 have-not provinces also....but Quebec is the most subsidized province of all.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:25 pm

Per capita we are the least subsidized... and how close is Ontario to becoming a "have-not" province also?

C'mon now.  Smile

Mark
 
airplay
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:48 am

When equalization payments to Quebec above & beyond all the taxes that Quebecers pay, stop. The same applies to the other 7 have-not provinces also....but Quebec is the most subsidized province of all.


http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/FTPTe.html

It appears that the "most subsidized" province changes to fit YYZ717's mood. A while ago it was Manitoba...

If you want to define the worth of each province by the amount of transfer payments or subsidies they receive without looking at the background and the budgets of each province, you are doing a disservice to our Federation.

To blindly declare that Alberta and Ontario are the chief finiancial contributors to the country, you expose just how little you know about this country.

How about the huge amount of money lost to the rest of us "have-not" because Alberta HAS mad cow and Ontario HAS SARS...

http://www.gov.on.ca/FIN/english/media/2003/nre-relief.htm

But heres the difference. Most Canadians are glad to further the well being of the federation by helping Alberta and Ontario through their financial woes. YYZ717 doesn't. He is truly anti-Federation and anti-Canadian.

Anecdotal evidence from 20yo YUL'er. It must be true.

Typical typical typical.....attack and undermine the messenger, and ignore the message....





[Edited 2003-12-07 16:49:59]

[Edited 2003-12-07 16:50:39]
 
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yyz717
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:46 am

Quebec is the largest recipient of transfer payments in total. On a per capita basis, it's NF or PEI...not sure which. I don't feel like looking it up right now.

YYZ717 doesn't. He is truly anti-Federation and anti-Canadian.

Whatever Airplay. How sad.  Insane



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:33 am

Neil...

Can you just admit that things have improved?

 
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yyz717
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:39 am

Can you just admit that things have improved?

Yes, absolutely Mark. The job creation in Quebec in great. I hope it continues. Honestly.

But don't treat it as proof that Quebec is booming. It remains with a per capita income only 90% the Cdn average. Quebec is merely catching up to the Cdn average with respect to the unem rate, pc income, etc.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:43 am

Fair enough..

*filler*
 
Qb001
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:38 pm

First, the Fraser Institute is, at best, a set of preconceived conclusions looking for facts. Nobody here took it seriously, as it was filled with so many factual errors. And at worst, it's just BS. I think the latter is the good explanation.

Second, give Quebec its fair share of federal spending in R&D and Defense and we won't need any equalization payment. With nearly 25% of the population and the industrial base, Quebec gets less than 15% of the federal spending in R&D and in Defense. We're talking billion of structural dollars here.

Quebec is merely catching up to the Cdn average with respect to the unem rate
You have to know where we're coming from. Up until 1963 or so, Quebec, because of the conservative politics of the time, had one of the worst education system in the western world. I think only Greece and Portugal were worst. We still pay for those centuries of negligence.

Now, the effects of the 1960s reforms are starting to kick-in to their full effect. Ever since the 1960s, the unemployment level between Quebec and Ontario has slowly and constantly diminished. In 1961, Quebec's employment rate was 89% of Ontario's. In 2001, it was 93%. We are slowly catching up. And Quebec now has the most diversified economy in Canada.

We're not there. Yet. Just be a little bit more patient...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
AC320
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:48 pm

Yes, but other "reforms" of that era too are part of what set Quebec back in the first place and continue to have an adverse effect, but not as much as in the past, on the province's growth and development
fuddle duddle
 
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yyz717
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:48 pm

With nearly 25% of the population and the industrial base, Quebec gets less than 15% of the federal spending in R&D and in Defense.

Quebec has just under 22% of the natl population. It's dropping about 0.2% every year. By 2013, it will be under 20%, by 2033, under 16% at these rates.

Anyway, the total Federal spend in Quebec far exceeds the tax revenues from Quebec, so Quebec remains massively subsidized by the rest of Cda. Tax spend in Quebec exceeds tax revenues by approx $5B or about $800 per Quebec resident. So whatever Quebec is being "short changed" on R+D and defense, it more than makes up in other fed govt programs.

The one province that is truly being shafted is Alberta, where they pay more than $2700 each in fed tax than they receive in services.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Qb001
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:56 pm

So whatever Quebec is being "short changed" on R+D and defense, it more than makes up in other fed govt programs.

Wrong. Unemployment insurance is always calculated as a federal spending. Take unemployment away, and your numbers will show that Quebec sends more money to Ottawa than the other way around.

Also, there is a world of difference between spending 1G$ in unemployment insurance or spending 1G$ in R&D. The first help people stay afloat. The other does create job. It's not only a matter of quantity, it's also a matter of quality.

Funny you never hear any complaints from Ontario because it gets more than its share of Federal R&D and defense spending. Wonder why...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:13 pm

Funny you never hear any complaints from Ontario because it gets more than its share of Federal R&D and defense spending. Wonder why...

Because Ont remains shortchanged. We pay more in fed tax than we receive in govt services. As does Alberta.

The other 8 provinces are have-not provinces in that they receive MORE fed tax spend than they pay.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Qb001
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:45 pm

Because Ont remains shortchanged.

What a joke. Ontario gets way freaking more than its fair share in structuring investment from the Federal government, such as R&D and defense spendings.

And you did not answer the core of my point:
Unemployment insurance is always calculated as a federal spending. Take unemployment away, and the numbers will show that Quebec sends more money to Ottawa than the other way around.

Again, 1G$ in unemployment is not the same as 1G$ in R&D spendings. As long as this fact keeps bouncing back on your scull barrier, no way you can claim to understand anything about the dynamic of the Canadian federation.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:07 am

Again, 1G$ in unemployment is not the same as 1G$ in R&D spendings.

Actually, it's exactly the same. Both have the same multiplier effect, and both are figured into the general subsidization of Quebec by the ROC (rest of Cda).

As long as this fact keeps bouncing back on your scull barrier

Are you capable of debating without insulting?



[Edited 2003-12-08 16:13:47]
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Qb001
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:43 am

Actually, it's exactly the same. Both have the same multiplier effect

Are you serious? Is this what you learned in school?

So, to you, having 1G$ invested in building a top-notch research facility that will employ dozens of well-paid, top scientists, who will spread new technologies and scientific break through around, is the same a giving thousands of people barely enough money so that they can survive until the next fishing or lumbing season?

I don't want to insult your ego, but you are dead wrong. And if you are so sure to be right, here's the deal: Quebec gets the research facilities and Ontario gets the unemployment. How's that?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:02 am

So, to you, having 1G$ invested in building a top-notch research facility that will employ dozens of well-paid, top scientists, who will spread new technologies and scientific break through around, is the same a giving thousands of people barely enough money so that they can survive until the next fishing or lumbing season?

It's exactly the same. Unem insurance returns immediately to the economy in terms of consumer purchases, rent, etc. That rent is building equity for some landlord who then is one step closer to re-investing in another property. Similarly, the investment in the "research facility" does not guarantee jobs....many research investments fail...others prosper and other barely survive.

The multiplier effect is the same for ALL federal tax spends.

The fact remains that Quebec remains very subsidized by the ROC. Nice work on the recent job creation but you have a long way to go!



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Qb001
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RE: Attention Quebec Bashers!

Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:08 am

The multiplier effect is the same for ALL federal tax spends.

You are confusing multiplier effect with structuring effect.

I guarantee a revolution in Ontario the day the Federal government sends the R&D and defense dollars in Quebec and Ontario gets the unemployment. How's that?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.

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