zak
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Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:41 pm

poland(not even a member untill 2004) and spain are obviously willing to block the eu constitution. the reason is that the eu constitution gives countries a number of votes in correlation to their number of cititzens opposed to the current system, where spain(and if kept poland too) have an almost similar number of votes like germany and france while only having roughly half the population. it is sad that a country that is not even in the eu yet already tries to milk it for benefits and starts undermining the process of further democracy. and spain under aznar is just a well known sad case, but only for a few more months till reelections. similar case to berlusconi(who has been very nice towards the eu suprisingly)
10=2
 
Andreas
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:01 am

Well yes, one could be tempted to put it like that, but I don't think it is necessary to point the finger at other countries, that has never been Germany's way in the EU, and hopefully we are not starting right now.

Of course it upsets other countries to give away some power to the big ones, it's natural, and you have to cope with it. That's the task for diplomacy usually, but right now it seems to become the territory for flamethrowers, and especially for American college kids who have never been to Europe and will have another Euro-bashing field day with your post!

The only thing that I hope will NOT be the result is a so-called "core-EU", that goes it's own way inside the EU...Tony Blair obviously does have similar thoughts and seeks to talk to Chirac and Schroeder.

btw: Not that I give a flying you-know-what about eurobashers from the US of A or elsewhere in the world  Big grin Big grin

[Edited 2003-12-11 16:05:47]
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JAL777
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:03 am

Oooooooooo!!! A Euro-bashing post!!!!

Actually... EU voting should be based on population so I agree with you two.
 
zak
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:11 am

yes i agree with your posting for the most part andreas, however what the constitution does is strenghten the democracy in the eu. i fail to comprehend how a country that gets the honor to be allowed in (isnt always that way like turkey experiences) already tries to undermine what is obviously in line with the majority of eu member states. poland doesnt lose power because it never had any in the eu as new member. it should simply accept its position because BEING in the eu is better then not being in. so no matter what deal they get they should accept it, especially since the deal is geared towards a more citizen and less national state oriented eu, which is what should be the ultimate goal. you dont have countries like luxembourg complaining, even though luxemburg is the country that profits most from the current system. nor do you have uk complaining who will loose power aswell due to their small number of citizens compared to france and germany.
in spain a good number of people regret x'ing for PP(aznars party) on the ballot, similar to people in italy in regard to king silvio, therefore i see it as different case. i hope poland will understand that together is what counts in the eu and not screwing other countries for your own advantage. if they dont i will gladly support a core eu, because we can not allow a stop of progress because countries were not ready to commit themselves fully to the european cause. and if all thats left of the eu is francallemagne and BeNeLux, so be it  Sad
10=2
 
TWFirst
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:55 am

I guess I don't understand why the EU doesn't adopt a bicameral parliament, with one house having representatives elected based on population, and the other house having equal number of representatives for each member.

Yes, that is the same structure as the US Congress, but so what? The original US colonies had the very same argument, and that's why we have what we have.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:07 am

I don't understand why the EU needs a constitution. Each EU member already has one. Sounds like unnecessary bureaucracy to me. How very European.  Insane

If someone can explain to me how the average European will benefit from an EU constitution, I'd appreciate it. (<----- rhetorical comment).

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Andreas
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:08 am

TWFirst: I guess that or something similar is exactly what we're aiming at, but we are just not there right now. We need a constitution, that regulates the power of such parliaments and that is the core of the currently ongoing argument.
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Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:10 am

"Honour to be admitted in EU"? I can say that it is a honour for EU that Poland joins it and it would be the same. In reality, it is not honour for anybody, but it's fact that a country decides to join an organisation because (the government of) it thinks it will be 'profitable'. If some laws of the organisation, global; situation, etc. are changed, country may rethink it's priorities and decide not to join. And even if it decides to join, it of course will try to make the organisation so that it would be more applicable for it.
Would it be good if, for instance, in NATO only other countries would have to help USA in it's wars, but USA wouldn't have to help other countries if war is declared on them? Probably many states would "loose that honour" and leave NATO then...
And actually you Zak want the same what Spain and Poland wants, more power. You say it's democratic? But this is one of the main reasons Turkey is not permitted in, because it has high population, would have many votes.

BTW, there I can't comment for Poland, but I can say that EU will be bad for my own country, Lithuania. I explained the reasons many times, but I will repeat main ones: influx of immigrants, emmigrating skilled Lithuanians, closedown of Ignalina Power Plant and leaving Lithuanian energetics dependent on RUssia, tax system reformed according to EU and thus becoming leftist, Lithuanian bussinesses bankrupted because of no barriers influence of EU companies, other Lithuanian companies bought out, money and licence plates with non-Lithuanian symbols, foreigners buying land in Lithuania, EU citizens able to vote in Lithuanian elections, decitions for Lithuania done by EU (non democratic, because not only Lithuanians elects EU parlaiment thus they wouldn't represent nation's will), etc. EU will get Lithuanian market while we will get (almost) nothing. We will anyways be a province of EU, thus there are completely no reasons to join in my opinion.
 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:27 am

TWfirst, I do agree with your idea, but I think tricameral parliament with the following houses would be better:
House of People (having one member per million of EU citizens. Elected either by proportional represantation completely, or half by proportional, half by majoritarian system. Each country would have it's own electoral region, thus parties candidating could be either local, regional, or pan-European. If a party candidates in more than one country it has to propose different lists for each of the countries. If half of representatives would be appointed by majoritarian system, than some bigger countries would be partitioned into electoral regions themselves for these elections)
House of States (having members not elected directly, but instead sent by each member state government (or, if member state has different laws, there could be elections for these representatives too, but it would be a local matter). There would be either fixed or semi-fixed number of representatives per country. By semi-fixed I mean system like it is now, when there are different amounts of representatives per country, but the number is not fully dependant on population. House of States would try to protect different states and their rights)
House of Nations (representing nations of EU. Every nation having more than certain amount of people in EU would have certain number of seats here. House of Nations would be elected directly by people, each voting for candidates to his own nation seats regardless of where in EU he/she would be. So, for instance German living in Spain would still vote in German Nation elections. It might be hard to organise, but possible with new technology, and also it is needed because emmigration/immigration between countries is on high levels in EU. House of Nations would protect cultural rights of nations rather than territorial rights of states like House of States would do. Minority nations (if they have enough population; e.g. Turks (Turkish Cypriots and immigrants), Catalans, Baskians) would also have their own seat(s).).
 
Cyril B
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:37 am

An hour ago, the polish president told that he will probably veto the constitution if Poland does not keep the voting rights it virtually acquired thanks to the Nice treaty. (The Nice treaty will only apply from 2005 to 2009, with the new constitution due to apply in 2009)

Under nice treaty, voting rights inside the Council of ministers (executive body of the EU) are the following:

Germany, France, Italy and UK: 29
Spain, Poland : 27

It means that Poland and Spain, with a combined population of 79 millions, have 54 votes, compared to Germany's 82 millions people and 29 votes!

That's obviously an anti democratic voting system.
The germans, french, italian and british have the right to get the power they deserve. What the poles want is not a fair representation (as they claim), it's a disproportionate power compared to their real power!

The worst it that the poles and the spanish are showing absolutely no flexibility, and they will probably sink this constitution. And if the consitution is not adopted, the EU (with 25 members next year) will not be able to work.
Thanks Poland, thanks Spain, you will break more than 50 years of hard work! (but they don't care, they are not the ones who worked to build the EU...)

 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:52 am

So, Cyril B, you want all power in hands of French and German, to some extent British and Italian (although British would still probably be marginalised, at least in foreign politics), and all other smaller nations as some workhorses? Should these smaller nations work for Germany and France and get nothing in return? Yes, Germany would have less votes than Poland and Spain combined, but more votes than either Poland or Spain alone. By the way, probably if (this is hypothetical) on some decition number of votes by all other states would be equal, and only Poland, Spain and Germany would be left to cast votes, and Poland+Spain would vote for one decition, while Germany - for another, it should be so that Polish+Spain vote would overrule German one, regardless of Germany having bigger population. After all, it is a Union of all countries, of all nationalities, or at least this is what people in Brusseles tends to claim. So, I am not saying that smaller countries should have same power as larger, but at least they should have some power and if all small countries wants one thing, while the 2 bigger ones wants another, it should be as majority of countries wants. Otherwise it would be an occupation (people of one region deciding for other regions) and not a democracy. Dor smaller countries it would be same democracy as for Chechny ain Russian Federation.
And EU won't be able to work if it is nor controlled by Germany and France, was this what you wanted to say in the last paragraph of your post?
 
Andreas
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:05 am

Sonic I'm afraid you do not really understand how EU works..."do what Germany wants" or be "our workhorse", "work for us and get nothing in return"???? Who told you this nonsense? Was that the anti-EU propaganda in your country? Wow! Obviously the got away with ridiculous lies.

You get a lot of money, in fact tons of it, and yes, about one third of it comes from Germany, so much for your completely laughable workhorse theory. Other than that I advise you to read all those threads about EU in the last months, of course you don't have to like it, the American southern states didn't like it, too, and the rest is history, EU fortunately doesn't work that way but applies rather peaceful methods, and if a country does not want to join...very well don't join!
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Cyril B
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:27 am

The EU must become democratic.

As the two parts of the legislative body of the EU, the parliament (who discusses law) and the council of minister (who passes law), must reflect the size of the member states in order to be democratic.

What you ask for is the possibility for one or two countries to block a measure that a majority of countries wants to pass. Today, that's already impossible, and under the current voting system, a law needs 62 votes (on a total of 87) to be passed.

Under the proposed voting system, a law will need to be voted by a majority of countries representing 60% of the population of the EU in order to be passed. That's simple, and that's democratic, as the number of states and the size of the people are both important.

And, by the way, remember that EU measures do not apply to sovereign areas like defense, foreign policy, taxes, budget...

EU members are sovereign countries free to define their policies, so don't tell me that the EU is a kind of franco-german reich who dictates all euro countries what to do. That's what all anti-EU are telling and its not true.
 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:41 am

Andreas, I am sorry if I sound radical, I am not one, and I was not denying everything EU, just posted some criticism. Sorry again if it appeared otherwise. And my opinion exacly wasn't formed by any propaganda, because the only propaganda you could receive here wa pro-EU one. Because of this, about 92% of people voted for joining EU in referendum. This was achieved mainly though (in my opinion) immoral decitions, like giving beer for votes, and also government-paid 'agitation' campaign, which didn't mentioned any bad sides of EU. Also, referendum rules were changed just for this one referendum. No representation of eurosceptics was in state TVs or Radios which in theory should represent all nation. Before propaganda started about 55% of people were pro-EU.

I read most of threads about EU. Because I do not want to repost everything I already posted, here is the link to topic I posted all my ideas:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/390630/

As for money EU will give to Lithuania: many of this are private investions to things like shops, media industry, etc, also importing of EU goods without taxes. This will be very dermiental because the oldest Lithuanian companies are only 13 years old and they (most of them) won't be able to compete EU ones. Which will lead them to either becoming niche companies, go bankrupt or being bought-out by foreign companies. Profits will after this be brought away of Lithuania. True, jobless rate in Lithuania will probably lower (although it is already lower than German one), but should Lithuania be a nation of workers without big and succesful companies? Some are now quite strong (Vilniaus Prekyba, Lifosa, Achema, Ekranas, Tauras, etc.), but after barriers falling completely they would suffer. Tauras, a TV manufactorer, for instance will have to pay taxes for importing now tax-free cinescopes from Taiwan, which will impair their abilities to make a cheap product which makes them popular. Vilniaus Prekyba, a shop group, will suffer as more European shop chains will enter the market. And so on. Lithuania's economy is too young and weak to join EU. It will only be exploited (in my opinion), rather than get anything.
 
Andreas
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:08 am

Well my opinion about the advantages for Lithuania joining the EU is somewhat different from yours obviously, and I don't think your country needs more time. As so many of your neighbouring countries are going to be members, it would be fatal for you to stay away, Lithuania is not comparable to Norway, a country that can afford to stay out.
EU does have its disadvantages, but there are advantages, too, so life will be different for you, but not in a negative sense, but in a positive way. Ok ok, I'll stop now, I'm beginning to sound like a politician Big grin...

And don't worry I never thought you're a radical, I've read many of your posts and these usually provide facts, which is not always the case here on this forum, as we all know, subsequently I have a lot of respect for you!

[Edited 2003-12-11 19:22:18]
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racko
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitu

Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:17 am

"It means that Poland and Spain, with a combined population of 79 millions, have 54 votes, compared to Germany's 82 millions people and 29 votes!"

Read that sentence out loud and then think about it, if that is fair.
And the funny thing is, Spain & Poland are completly serious with their claim.

What they want is that Germany shuts the fuck up and just gives them money and then they're surprised that we do not want to accept such a "democratic" system.

If Poland doesn't want democracy in the EU, they should simply not join it. And they shouldn't expect one cent from us, or donated warplanes and tanks.
 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:18 am

Cyril B, the democracy you talk about is kind of "colonialist democracy", where central regions have the deciding power. It can be so in homogenous country, but definitely not in multinational union. Each nation has it's own views which should be equally represented or, if not equally, than at least in the same proportions they are now. There can't be a true "majority rule" in such organisation. Imagine if number of votes in UN would directly depend on population - then China and India would be almost deciding decitions... Would this be right in your opinion? EU is organisation of states and nations, not directly of people, just like NATO, UN, etc. Thus nations/states should have votes, not people directly.
 
zak
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:30 am

"if Poland doesn't want democracy in the EU, they should simply not join it"
yup thats the point. but what do you expect from someone like kwasniewski. after all he was the posterboy of the communist party back when the commies tried to save the 1 party state when the unionists revolted. he quickly became pro democratic stuff when the eastern block collapsed, hes not a democratic person by heart, he is just in it for the best deal. and that clearly shows with his current attitude. i think the eu should not move an inch towards him, if he doesnt want to support the democratic future of the eu he should also not expect to get all the treats he gets from "old yurop". he has to pick a side and stick with it.
10=2
 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:43 am

Andreas, I don't think it would be fatal to stay away if nearby countries joins. Probably it would have an impact, for sure, but still there is the eastern markets (Ukrainean, Byelarussian, Russian) which are currently the most targetted by Lithuanian companies (so are Latvian and Estonian markets). Lithuanian architactural design companies, just as an example, are quite frequently hired in mentioned eastern countries because they has quality and are cheaper than western ones. Same goes for quite many companies and export - currently, it is easier for us to tap these markets than to go into crowded EU markets. Also, Lithuanian knowledge of the bussines culture in these Eastern Culture helps (actually, this is the reason why so many well-doing companies fails in these countries - it is because they, like in Europe, tries to do everything in order. While in a countries like Belarus (also Russia, Ukraine) you in some cases couldn't even get a permission to build something without giving "a little gift" to some officer and drinking with some other officer. In interviews bussinesmen who expands to these markets always says how important it is and that by such measures everything is speeded up by several months and costs are lowered. Well, we had such things in Lithuania not so much time ago, thus we tend to know them quite well).
Advances in the east may not be impaired by joining EU, I am just saying that for Lithuania the EU market is not everything it has. It is the most eastern oriented country of all Baltics and because of it was hit by Russian crisis in 1998 hardly. Lithuanian GNP currently is growing on 9% (in first half of 2003), which is one of biggest growths in the world for that period. It is without EU. I am not saying that it won't grow like that in EU, but just claiming that we are anyway growing economically. Thus it is not like we would be a starving third world country with no hope if not EU which comes and saves us. I doubt EU would even admit such a country.

And yes, I always try to provide facts, I am glad you like it  Smile . While writting that post you replied to I was watching a TV show and thus wanted to write it all during commercials. Because of this reason it wasn't too full of facts...

Racko, according to you claim, China should be unhappy because in UN it gets only 1 vote in security council. So, France and UK, having only 1/7th or so of Chinese population, combined has 2 votes, while China only one. You think it's unfair? But I think most of international organisations works this way. Of course, just like in EU currently (or UN for that matter with permanent SC members) some members are privilegised more, but to make everything completely dependent on population, like in a single country, is not a good thing in my opinion.
 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:51 am

Zak, any politician, regardless werether "democratic in heart" or not, would want that their country would be important. Dictators would want so because they would want power for themselves. Democratic politicians - because they wants power for people. People of their country, not people of neighborhood countries or faraway countries. Because in Poland, as far as I know, representatives for EU parliament will be elected in popular elections, it is a democratic country. It is nothing bad that a leader of it wants that it would be an important state, not a mere province of huge Union. Every leader would want it so. Espcially leader of a country, politics of which were more or less controlled by a bigger Union for 50 years.
I can't comment of Kwasniewski's feelings. I guess his real feelings are irrelelevant, his actions are what's important, as with all politicians. One can be a nazi in heart but act like ordinary rightist and nobody would probably notice (if no emotional references are made in speeched). Same goes for communist and socialdemocratic.
 
Cyril B
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:00 am

What some guys needs to understand is the fact that, contrary to the UN who is an organisation of worldwide cooperation (and where each country have one voice), the EU is a regional organisation of integration, whose role is to define common policies in some areas like trade, industry, agriculture, immigration... and to form, in some decades, a federation. (like it or not, that's the goal of the EU, everyone knows it).

The poles and the spanish acts as if they were not aware of this. Of course they are, but still they won't leave the EU because they badly need fresh euro money. So in order to get money without loosing some power, they will prevent the system from working.

Every country must make steps towards the other countries...
In the proposed consitution, France's weight inside the EU will also be reduced compared to Germany's one. But you don't see the french goverment threatening to veto the whole constitution. Each country must get a fair representation of its population. That's democracy.

If Poland and Spain does not agree and wants to block the whole integration, they have to leave the EU AND GIVE THE MONEY BACK!

[Edited 2003-12-11 20:18:04]
 
zak
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:07 am

@sonic
"regardless werether "democratic in heart" or not, would want that their country would be important"
thats the point, and i think that also shows why you are against the eu idea.
its not about countries. read what cyril wrote in reply20 right before this posting. its about the federal structures of the eu. you obviously dont get it hence dislike the eu, and its similar for kwasniewski regardin his actions.
10=2
 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:31 am

Cyril B, I am of course aware about the plans of turning EU into federation, and this is one of the points why I oppose whole idea. However, it is the fact that majority of population doesn't knows this. In the euro"agitation" campaign I mentioned previously, these things were just silenced. That campaign was mostly aimed at workers and farmers, which are still educated my old Soviet system mostly and doesn't understands much about economics or international politics, yet makes the majority of people. In that campaign it was said (of course, indirectly) that Lithuania will almost rule whole EU. Some people even now believes that "whole Union will be ours when we will join", I spoke to several such people myself. Example of this agitation could be advertisements which said that "After joining, Lithuania will have as many votes in EU council [probably bad spelling] as such rich and powerful countries as Ireland(...)". Of course, not many people knows much about Ireland, just knows that it's a Western country and they already forms and opinion as I mentioned before.
Thus, these politicians became slaves of their own agitations. I am quite sure this happened in Poland also. Kwasniewski also probably told his people what power Poland will get with joining Union, and now he must not destroy his political career by loosing that power. Of course, he can't leave Union for which he agitated all people to vote for.
Thus, as one Lithuanian politician did said (leader of "Young Lithuania" political party, which was the biggest party not to support EU), we are buying a cat in a basket (according to a popular Lithuanian saying). We don't know what EU will be in future, it is still not decided, yet we want to join it. Probably we wouldn't like future EU at all?
 
Cyril B
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:49 am

Sonic, I understand your point, but that's a national problem, not a european one.

If your government didn't held a true democratic debate about whether is was good or bad to join the EU, it's your problem, not France or Italy's one.

Eastern Europe countries pushed hard to enter the EU (despite the fact that some countries, like Poland, didn't met all conditions required to join), signed the treaty, got billions € in aid from the EU ... and now they say "hey, I don't want of that system".

Poland's behaviour indicates that, in fact, this country is not ready to enter the EU: you can't ask to enter a club and say at the same time that you will oppose the way the club works.

 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:10 am

Ciryl B,

No, Poland doesn't opposes the way club works. It's opposite - Poland wants the club to stay as it is. After all, when Poland and other countries were starting their plans to join the organisation, there were no plans for this new constitution. This is probably the reason why people weren't informed about it - government(s) were so eager to join the Union that they didn't wanted to say something negative about it. However, they still have the point - if the Union is going to be reformed in 2009, when they will be full members, they of course will have a right to say what they thinks about it. Again, Polish wants to keep EU as it was when they first thought of joining it, it's not as they would want to change it as you are claiming.

And these "Billions of Euros" (sorry still haven't that Euro symbol on my keyboard, only have $ symbol) of financial aid isn't quite right. Yes, there is aid, but:
1.Part of this aid would be given anyways (e.g. humanitarial aid for country schools, etc.), and non-EU states also gives it.
2.Other part of this aid is beneficial for current EU members themselves (e.g. Via Baltica road project which connects no two or more major Lithuanian cities, but runs through Lithuania and is to be build for easier Warshaw-Helsinki access. Lithuania will also have to contribute for building of this road)
3.Some aid is not worth it's consequesness (for instance, aid to Lithuanian farmers: farmers of current EU states gets much more. Of course, without EU aid would be even smaller, but in this case taxes would protect Lithuanian market from EU-made food and thus it would be better for our farmers, since they almost doesn't export anyway)
4.Some aid is there only to help bear with joining EU consequesness and doesn't even fully covers them (e.g. help (definitely not a 100% one) to close down Ignalina Power Plant, which could work for many years, but EU wants it to be closed because they does not want cheap energy from Lithuania (I mean realpolitik here)).

I am not saying that all aid is bad, but add up other bad sides of EU which I mentioned before here and you'll see that it is not such a good deal.
 
JOSEMEX
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:29 am

>>in spain a good number of people regret x'ing for PP(aznars party) on the ballot<<

Well, aparently not enough people: recent polls show the PP obtaining another absolute majority in next year's election, with an approximately 6 point lead over that other clown...mmmm...what's his name??...oh yeah!...Zapatero, that's right!
 
teahan
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:38 am

It's opposite - Poland wants the club to stay as it is. After all, when Poland and other countries were starting their plans to join the organisation, there were no plans for this new constitution.

I think it is fairly obvious Poland knew it was joining a forward-moving European Union. Where would the the EU (or the world) be if everything stayed as it was.

Jeremiah
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:47 am

Teahan, this is what I want to say - EU, and the world, moves forward, and Poland knows it. However, since Poland will be in organisation by 2009, Poland, as well as others, will decide where that forward is.
 
Klaus
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:23 am

The keywords here are fairness and democracy. And in both respects the position of Spain and Poland is ... just sad.
 
teva
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:26 am

Sonic, I totally agree with you, regarding integration in Europe.
All the countries who joined the club have seen their economy completely detroyed by the monsters from France, Germany, Belgium or even UK...  Yeah sure

Look at the situation and the economy of Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Greece, when they joined EU, and today.
Is it the apocalyptic situation you see for the future of your country?
Probably some sectors had to adapt themselves, and it has not been easy every day. But it has nothing to do with EU. It is tha world and the economy that are changing. And in today's world, the only rule is adapt yourself or die.

And even if I know you don't like it, welcome in EU  Big thumbs up

Teva  Smokin cool
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
ryanb741
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:22 am

I think there should be a duel with giant rubber mallets over a pool of custard whilst standing on a pole. If you are knocked off the pole your policy is discounted. Disagreements in the EU should be sorted in this way from now. Although naturally Germany, France and the UK should get a bigger mallet  Big grin Big grin
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
bobrayner
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:35 am

Some aid is there only to help bear with joining EU consequesness and doesn't even fully covers them (e.g. help (definitely not a 100% one) to close down Ignalina Power Plant, which could work for many years, but EU wants it to be closed because they does not want cheap energy from Lithuania (I mean realpolitik here)).

Ignalina again? You can do better than that.

Ignalina is being closed down because it's a hazardous design and is increasingly expensive to maintain; thats all. The EU would hardly want to remove a source of cheap energy, would it?
Cunning linguist
 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:21 am

Teva, as I told before, we adapting to changing world's economies. As for other countries you mentioned - please note that market economy was "strong" in all of them. Also, these were different times - EU was more a trade and economic alliance, while now it is more like a confederation. And I think the mentioned countries would have evolved the same or almost the same way without EU also - fall of dictatorships of Franco and Salazar in Portugal/Spain, dropping of Colonial Empire (Portugal), etc. all contributed to this growth. Of course, due to EU tourism increased, but these are mediterranean countries with good climate, unlike Lithuania.

Bobrayner, I didn't wanted to sound as I am completely sure that pressure on the closure of Ignalina Power Plant is solely because of it being a cheap energy source, but just to saythat it is one of the reasons. Actually, Nuclear Power Plant is much less hazardous (I mean, under normal circumstances) than gas power plants. Latter does more damage to the enviroiment, and they will become the major producers of power in Lithuania after Ignalina closedown, since there is low amount of enviroimentally friendly PPs in Lithuania. By the way, such power is more expensive also.
And I am speaking about this problem every time because I, same as many Lithuanians, find it important (in one of earlier polls it was asked "would you vote for EU?" and "would you vote for EU if this would require Ignalina NPP closure?". Number of "yes" answers was 10% lower in latter poll). It's not like it would be a simple power plant - it creates about 80% of all Lithuanian energy, and could actually fully statisfy Lithuanian needs if required. In early days of independence, many hopes were put to it that it would be possible to export the energy to Western Europe.
And European countries probably wouldn't want a cheap energy importing source, as they has they own energy makers, for instance wind energy, which they do not want to be cometed out (I am not a specialist here, however, so can't comment much).
Ignalina NPP is not anymore expensive to maintain and operate than gas power plants. It is already said that after Ignalina will be closed costs of energy will rise, because the gas energy is more expensive.
And as for fears of explotion - it is a fact that in history only one NPP exploded. Dams also broken, yet nobody closes down hydroplants for this. EU member states also aren't closing their NPPs and are planning to build more (this could be dated info since it is taken from old newspaper). That Ignalina is of so-called "Chernobyl-Type" doesn't means too much - not to mention that there are many other NPPs of this type working without accidents, Ignalina was also modernised and it is no longer the same as ones in Russia. Not too mention that a lot depends on safety precautions - they were close to non-existant in Soviet Times (most of safety was then against outside threats, like military or terrorist attacks, also against sabotages done by workers).
 
paulc
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:40 pm

As long as somebody says no to this constitution - that is all that matters.
It is just an excuse to take more power from national governments and give to unelected/unaccountable burocrats. Blair is selling the UK to Brussels - the price being the first president of a united states of europe. Even the MP appointed by Blair has stated publicly that the constitution as it stands is not in the UK best interest but I doubt he will listen.

At least some countries will be getting a vote unlike the UK and with any luck there will be some 'no's. (like Ireland on Nice Treaty, Denmark on Maastrict and more recently Sweden on the euro)
English First, British Second, european Never!
 
zak
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:11 pm

"Nuclear Power Plant is much less hazardous (I mean, under normal circumstances) than gas power plants. Latter does more damage to the enviroiment,"
i have not read a statement as stupid as that in a long time here sonic, i mean really, you mean under normal circumstances if nothing goes wrong. BUT THINGS DO GO WRONG. im sure its not the most modern safest design, and as we all know russian reactors have proven in the past that it CAN HAPPEN.
its funny that you tell that its the oh so cheap perfect energy source yet big countries with, no offense to you but i think its right, far more advanced reactor design then the former soviet union states like germany, phase out nuclear power till 2030 because it is simply too risky overall if something goes wrong. we have all seen what can happen in with nuclear power (well maybe not you considering it happened while the cccp was still there so it might have been censored off), and quite frankly the eu doesnt want old bad design nuclear plants around. it is hilarious and just stupid "anti eu propaganda" that you say its a unjustified claim when we all have tschenobyl (spelling?) in mind.
10=2
 
L-188
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:21 pm

I guess the central debate is:

How much power should an individual independent country surrender to a central body.

similar to the US vs. UN Debates that you have here.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:51 pm

EU members are sovereign countries free to define their policies, so don't tell me that the EU is a kind of franco-german reich who dictates all euro countries what to do. That's what all anti-EU are telling and its not true.

You obviously haven't read the constitution yet.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
paulc
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:14 pm

Arsenal@lhr

I am sure that Blair hasn't ! or perhaps he is wanting to go down as the biggest traitor this country has ever seen.

If this constitution is such a good thing for the UK then let us have a vote - after all he is supposed to look after the countries interests rather than his own or perhaps he knows that people are seeing the true nature of the EU, do not like it and would reject it at the first opportunity.

Come on all you small countries - do you want to be rulled by a central power - for the ex eastern block countries it will be like turning the clock back 25 years except this time you have a chance to say NO! - do not waste it. Once you sign this constitution your brief period of a self governing democracy will be over
English First, British Second, european Never!
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:24 pm

Yep, it's time to boot out Blair.

I cannot understand the man at the moment, why is he so desperate to sign up to this death bed? Why is he denying the bloody obvious? He bangs on about it being a "tidying up exercise". It's 200 pages of confusing diplomatic jargon.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Cyril B
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:52 pm

You obviously haven't read the constitution yet.

I have read this constitution. The project of constitution Giscard gave Berlusconi some weeks ago have bee profoundly modified, and areas like taxes, economy, defense and foreign policy will remain sovereign areas for member states (no majority vote on such issues).

What you say is just anti-EU propaganda based only on misinformation. If you really knew how the EU works and how it will work tomorrow, you wouldn't be so angry against the EU...
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:02 pm

What you say is just anti-EU propaganda based only on misinformation. If you really knew how the EU works and how it will work tomorrow, you wouldn't be so angry against the EU...

Who say's so? You must be reading something completely different from me. I feel for people like you who are gullible enough to believe this constitution is about "European integration" (buzzword at the moment) The idea of a federal superstate was thought up when the EC was created back in the 60's and 70's. Euro-enthusiasts keep talking about "integration", integration of what? The Amsterdam, Nice, Rome treaties were all about setting up for where we are now, now this new constitution will completely replace all of these previous treaties. Final nail in the coffin for soverignty and independence my friend.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:20 pm

Arsenal@LHR and Paluc, thanks for support

Zak, you probably didn't read my post to the end... I do of course know about Chernobyl disaster, I've just said this was the only NPP disaster. And it happened not because of bad technology, but because of not adhering safety rules. It was quite common in Soviet Union, as safety wasn't the most important than. It is completely different now. Safety is controlled, Ignalina is being shut down everytime there is a slightest danger. Not to mention that technology was itself modernised since we left USSR. The NPP is also defended from attacks from outside - AA batteries are always guarding it and ready to shoot down planes which entered the non-flying zone around NPP. And dams also collapsed in past, in several cases leading to huge disasters (Shimatan Dam as an example), does that means we should dismantle hydroplants also (a study had shown that if Kaunas Hydroplant would be overflooded and collapse, water of Nemunas would flood whole second largest city of Lithuania)? Disasters can happen anywhere.
It is quite strange that Europeans "feels the risk" of Ignalina, while only a few Lithuanians does. Lithuania would be damaged the most in case of disaster after all. Probably it is so because EU people won't have to pay more for energy (with low wages and high electricity usage in Lithuania it is not easy).

Alexander@LHR, I do agree about taking sovereignity and independence, I do think however that it is still not the last nail. Countries will still be somewhat independent after adopting new euroconstitution.
I am a strong believer in independence (and it is not very surprising, knowing the past of my country), and I am against giving it up (partly or fully). I am also a believer in a federalisation of each country, giving more power to regions, this way lowering the bureucracy.
 
gkirk
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:28 pm

The UK should leave the EU and form a super alliance with the USA  Big grin
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
paulc
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:48 pm

Arsenal@lhr

gullible is the right word - or perhaps the french population have become so 'brainwashed' regarding the eu that they believe everything they are told about it by there wonderful politicians. The document was written by an ex french leader so is probably going to be biased - no great surprise there but as is the case with many eu rules - they will only obey the ones that suit them (stablility pact/british beef etc). I can understand the french supporting anything the EU suggests - after all how else can they prop up their union run argiculture apart from massive CAP/eu subsidies and they would not want to threaten that. Perhaps the french just want to surrender to somebody - it has been a while since the last time and it might as well be to Brussels instead of Germany.
English First, British Second, european Never!
 
gkirk
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:52 pm

Perhaps the french just want to surrender to somebody - it has been a while since the last time and it might as well be to Brussels instead of Germany.
----------------
Sorry, but after that line I just have to say  Laugh out loud  Big thumbs up
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:36 am

Sonic

Your concerns are not alone. We in Britain have the same fears, when people from outside your own country, foreigners, start making your laws, deciding your foreign policy, your asylum policy, your economic policy, your justice system, your defence, you have to start worrying. This EU constitution does exactly that, EU law will have SUPREMACY over national law, how any proud citizen of any European country, including Lithuania, can accept something like this is baffling. And i'm not making this up, supremacy is the exact word they use in the foreign policy and justice section of the draft constitution. Not only that, you cease to remain a sovereign nation.

A constitution is the DNA, foundation, building blocks of a nation state, and the EU, if successful, will turn itself into a country from a economic and political union.

Paulc, agree with what you said, it's ironic that those who are enthusiastic and support the EU, are the same individuals who are anti-american.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
JAL777
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:39 am

Perhaps the french just want to surrender to somebody - it has been a while since the last time and it might as well be to Brussels instead of Germany.


Wow!!! One of the greatest lines ever posted on this website. Stunning! Simply Stunning!!!  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up
 
zak
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:24 am

latest news are that today blair chirac and schröder met to reassure their firm stance to each other. poland has pulled back its threat of veto and german foreign minister fischer said it would not be too wise from the new member states to run a policy of blockade since that could eventually lead to a similar attitude towards them in regard of subsidies and eu money. an alternative is that the current constitution will be accepted but a discussion meeting about the procedures will be held in 2 years to talk about the state of the constitution, giving poland an opportunity to save face with the "well we can renegotiate later" thing yet formally accept the constitution.

what the anti eu citizens dont like is that the eu will without a doubt lead to a state where the countries mean not much anymore. alot of people embrace that because they see the chances. if you dont like it voice your opinion. there are anti eu parties everywhere. vote for them. you live in a democracy and the majority of people vote pro eu. if you cant accept what the broad majority wants you might not be such a good democrat yourself, but most europeans seem to be quite compassionate about their new country and embrace it.

also @sonic when something can go wrong it will. you can never make anything 100% safe, and thats why nuclear powerplants need to be shut down immediately. especially the junk ones from the soviet block. because in the remote case that something goes wrong, billions of people are affected more or less. it is amazing that you see a plain move against "cheap energy" there.
10=2
 
teahan
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:05 am

Arsenal@LHR:

And i'm not making this up, supremacy is the exact word they use in the foreign policy and justice section of the draft constitution. Not only that, you cease to remain a sovereign nation.

EU Law is already supreme over national law. Nothing new there.

Jeremiah
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
Sonic
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RE: Poland And Spain Most Likely Block Eu Constitution

Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:07 am

Arsenal@LHR, I understand what you mean. I want that my own nation would rule my country and all it's decitions, this is democracy. If somebody elected by people of other countries rules my country, it is not much better than occupation. Every nation should be independent.

Zak, as for majority voting for EU, everything is possible through government-paid propaganda. Many Germans for instance believed that nazi regime was good back in interwar period too. Same goes to many people in Soviet Union, especially Russians - they actually believed that in the west everything is wrong, because only communists (also sportsmen) were permitted to go there, and only once in two years, while ordinary people were brainwashed about the Mighty Union and communist world's future from early days in school.
And yes, I do not want that EU would be a single country. I have no doubts that the majority of Lithuanians would agree with me here, except probably some young idealists. To much time we lived occupied by foreign union. Too much time we were exploited. And don't tell here about EU aid - Soviets also built roads, power plants, factories, schools and infrastructure in Lithuania. But this didn't made "being part of that Union" any better. I would want the least if Lithuania would become a provincial region of some huge Union again. Yet again we will have foreign currency. Yet again we will have foreign laws (I mean the supposed future of federation here, not current situation).
Nothing can be 100% safe, for sure. But if we will get rid of everything at least 0,0001% unsafe, than we would live in closets without going outside. There are nuclear ships, nuclear weapons, many nuclear reactors. In France, for instance, an EU country, 77% of energy is created in NPPs. And no one is planning to change this. Reactors in former SU are not junk, as I said, Chernobyl disaster happened because of poor safety conditions (as far as I remember from reading about it, there was some test done without even shutting down the reactor, but probably someone knows more accurate info). It wouldn't happen in Ignalia, as I said, reactors are shut down in slightest danger. Not to mention of great respect to safety there and modernisations with Swedish technology. And, as I said, dams could also break. There is no safe energy (probably wind and solar, but these are very expensive), if no disasters can happen, than they pollutes air on day to day basis. Pollution levels are also expected to rise in Lithuania due to higher usage of gas power plants, which are also Soviet build and not exacly "respecting" clean air.
By the way, France suggests Lithuania to build a new nuclear reactor, of course, with French technology and French companies. Would it be more safe? I doubt this, currently it is safe enough. However, it would cost lots of money to Lithuania and cheap power could no longer be provided as costs of building PP would be in energy price.

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