jcs17
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The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:15 pm

Over the past couple weeks, security has been tightened regarding commercial aviation and for the passengers arriving on flights to/from the US. This has been due to an increased level in terrorist 'chatter' and intelligence that points to a possible terror attack using airplanes. Among the actions taken by the US government:

-Requesting that a few international flights, with possible terror suspects aboard, be cancelled.

-Requiring that certain flights and certain airlines have security on board.

-Requiring that all passengers are properly screened at the originating airport.

-A few flights to the US have been trailed by fighter jets.

-All visitors to the US must be fingerprinted and photographed.

Surprisingly (yeah right), a good amount of posters have blamed this on "American paranoia," "the Bush administration in general," "Bush wanting to raise approval ratings," "American prejudice towards Muslims," and "false intelligence." And have gone onto cry bloody murder as if Nazi tanks were rolling through their backyard.

America suffered through the loss of 3,000 citizens (and other nations lost many citizens, as well) on 9/11 due to piss poor homeland security. The American intelligence agencies do their job and gather intelligence on the actions of Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. They attempt to prevent a terrorist attack through prevention (erring on the side of caution when it comes to allowing people on watch lists into the country)--and a lot of you consider it a bad thing--or misdirected at the very least. What if a terrorist was attempting to crash a plane into Paris and the French government requesting that American not allow one of its flights to take off? Heres how it would go, no Americans would really care...in fact we'd probably encourage it (we wouldn't scream "Chirac is just trying to get us back!"), and the rest of a.net would be giving Jacques Chirac a pat on the back for his bravery for saving thousands of Parisians.

Whenever America wants to stop terrorism through very slight measures of security, most of you consider it an capital crime. The only time that there is a concern for American homeland security from some of you, is when people are dead--then you feel free to point the finger at Bush and our intelligence community.

Let me remind some of you, that if America is attacked again using aircraft as a tool or weapon people will be killed. Actually nevermind that, I probably need to use something that most of you actually care about, the American aviation industry is most likely finished as we know it.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
artsyman
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:27 pm

-All visitors to the US must be fingerprinted and photographed
*******

While I am in total agreement with the theme of your post, I would like to point out that most European countries are exempt from this ruling. British etc do not get fingerprinted.

Jeremy
 
JAL777
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:34 pm

I respect any and all rules and laws when I go to a foreign country. I read up on local customs and accepted practices and follow them. If you don't wanna do the same thing when coming here... tough.
 
LHR001
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:39 pm

It is an American way of life...


You pat my back, I will pat yours!

I.E.
You cover for me, we will cover for you!



LHR001
 
L-188
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:41 pm

Sorry Jcs17 but Paranoia is an apt description.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
artsyman
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:43 pm

The main thing that bothers me about all this crap that people are dishing up, like Bush is making all this up etc, and it is all some CIA plot to put the airlines out of business etc.. is that do you people actually think that there is no craving for the nutjobs to cause harm to the US, do you think that they are wanting love in the world ?. it sends out a confusing message. The message that the arab world takes from it is that you are actually supporting their cause, as opposed to just voicing an opinion on it.

There is no doubt that they are attempting attacks, they spent millions on the last attacks, they worked on them for years, spoke in encoded messages and managed to pull it off, yet you guys think that they then walked of to Disneyland with no desire to do it again despite the continual messages from Bin Laden and his merry band of hopefuls.

Think about what you are actually saying

Jeremy
 
commander_rabb
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:53 pm

The fact is simple. If you don't want to be subjected to stringent security measures you don't have to travel to the United States. Period.

I find it most amusing that a country like Brazil does a "tit for tat" and now requires that all U.S. citizens be subjected to a higher security measure also. Seems to me that a country like Brazil stands to loose a whole lot more than the U.S. will from this obvious one-upmanship.

In any case what is wrong with a fingerprint and a photo? The world is changing, prepare yourselves for it. More security is on it's way.

 
L-188
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:57 pm

And now COmmander Rabb will expalin why, I as a Yank, should have my name and a fingerprint on file with the police, when I have commited no crime, Done no time, am not accused of anything, and all I want to do is get on a flipping airplane or get back into my own country!

I have no problem with what Brazil is doing, and hope more countries will take up the idea, to stick it to the federal government.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
JAL777
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:58 pm

And now COmmander Rabb will expalin why, I as a Yank, should have my name and a fingerprint on file with the police, when I have commited no crime, Done no time, am not accused of anything, and all I want to do is get on a flipping airplane or get back into my own country!


Uh... did you even read the article??? Its only for foreigners who require visas to enter the United States.
 
L-188
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:02 pm

Step 1 JAL777.

It is only Step 1


See CAPPS II
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
artsyman
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:03 pm

why, I as a Yank, should have my name and a fingerprint on file with the police, when I have commited no crime, Done no time, am not accused of anything
****

and if you have no interest in changing that, then you have nothing to worry about. Putting your finger on an ink pad and then a piece of paper, is that really a such a big deal ?, want me to hold your hand ?
 
vafi88
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:04 pm

The thing is, is that it IS paranoya... think about it, they tell you there's a Terrorist attack on the way (presumably) then everyone gets worried, the stock prices go down (or go up slightly) and then we wonder why we're in an economic "depression" or so to speak.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
L-188
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:04 pm

Artsymann.

I don't think you appreciate the dangers of databases.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
JAL777
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:04 pm

Well then... I've already been to step 4 in other countries... don't see what the big problem is.
 
JAL777
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:05 pm

I don't think you appreciate the dangers of databases.

Welcome to modern world.
 
cwapilot
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:10 pm

The Left can spew some of the most rediculous accusations against the Administration, they can create the most asinine conspiracy theories, and anything negative can be said, based in fact or not, against the President, and it has to be credible just because they are saying it.

In their world, it all boils down to the following: 9/11 was a staged event cooked up by an administration looking for a boost in its poll numbers, and used as a pretext to take over oil fields so that Halliburton could win an oil contract. The ongoing "security" situation is a way for the administration to maintain its poll numbers among the American public (as the public at large is just plain stupid when compared to the infinite wisdom of the Left) and to eventually take over the world.

Well, here's a conspiracy theory for all of you:
Opponents of this administration are STILL convinced, despite their inability to prove it given every opportunity to do so, that the 2000 election was stolen. They cannot STAND being out of power, and will do and say anything to regain power. The only way they see this happening, given the current state of their party and the pathetic set of candidates they have been able to field, is to defeat the President on his pet issue, which is national security, or for the economy to tank. The only way they can defeat him on national security is for another catastrophic attack on American soil to occur sometime within the next 9 months. And what better way for the economy to tank, than for another catastrophic terror attack to occur within the next 9 months. You see, the only way they have to win this election is for Osama to come through for them with another deadly terror attack...if, and only if, they are able to constrain the President from responding to such an attack effectively.

It is no wonder to me why some would like to brush the terrorism threat off as paranoia. It seems a winning, and very CONVENIENT, position. In the likely event that attacks are avoided, details of thwarted attacks will most likely not be made public, so as to protect the integrity of ongoing security operations. They then have the luxury of acting as the wise ones who did not give in to the paranoia...see, we were right, nothing happened! In the event that something DOES happen, they can emerge with the argument that the administration did not do the right things, and it's their fault. Again, they are the wise ones, and, in either scenario, "the bums should go!"


Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
artsyman
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:13 pm

L-188, I think that these things are just a part of life now. I would say that the databases have existed for a while now, and the fingerprint isnt really a big change or surprise. While I would agree that in a perfect world it would be better if we didnt have to worry about these trivialities, the truth is, if you need somewhere to vent your frustrations about this sort of thing, I would suggest that you go seek out some clerics and maybe the ashes of Mr Atta, and take it up with them as opposed to the people that are doing what they believe is best (for right or for wrong) to prevent it happening again.

Sure there are mistakes being made, but we are in a new world now, this sort of bollocks is here to stay, and although it is sad, I think people really should stop and think about how they cope with it.

Complaining is now human nature, people do it all the time, and they do it about everything and anything, it is now just written off as human nature, people are suing each other for the oddest things, it is just part of life these days. Freedom to do so is a beautiful thing.

Jeremy
 
L-188
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:27 pm

Hey Artsyman.

If I could find Atta's grave to urinate on it I would.

However the fact that a majority of the americans here think that this goverment intrusion and fearmongering is ok is both shocking and sad.

America was not built as a country to imprision it's citizens and to spy on them. Freedom to travel is something that we have enjoyed for years.

Allready we are seeing that who can fly is going to be restricted by CAPPS II, will the interstates be next?

How far are you willing to go.

I submit that it has gone to far allready.

Unfortunatly there isn't a viable canadate to change the system yet. So what it will take is Americans standing up, to CAPPS II finiancial checks screwing up their credit ratings, It will take invasive searches at the airport, It will take americans being jailed because they don't want to explain to an officer why they are standing on the sidewalk. How many times are federal officers going to sneek into homes without warrents before we say that the current security system is too much?

We are moving into the GDR people, and we don't even realize it.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
artsyman
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:40 pm

L-188, The items you bring up are from the daily norm for most American citizens. I have no doubt that there are some liberties going amiss, and that not everything is perfect, but I do feel in my heart of hearts that they are not as bad as you make out.

That said, I am strongly opposed to the current government, and have no love lost for the muppet at the top of the heap, but I am also aware that we are in a new era, and that along the way mistakes will be made, and that will happen whomever is in the Oval office.

My main bone of contention is the utter lack of respect that Bush has shown for the rest of the world, their rights, their opinions, and has really undone years of good work that bonded the western world.

The dislike of Americans worldwide has reached staggering proportions, and at the end of the day, the guy at the top needs to carry the can, but I just do not go along with the constant conspiracy crap that gets posted on here, it is tired, uneducated drivel that helps nothing. I want to make it clear that in no way do I attach you to that last comment, I enjoy what debates we have, they stay professional, for the most part logical, and usually informative.

Jeremy
 
B747-437B
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:41 pm

Whenever America wants to stop terrorism through very slight measures of security, most of you consider it an capital crime.

Josh, with all due respect, there is absolutely no "security" involved through highly publicized color-coded prime-time drama over the holidays. It is a spectacle engineered more for mass consumption than for actual security.

The US has a lot of areas of expertise where they are far ahead of most of the world. Aviation security and border controls is not among them. You can make strict rules ad infinitum to try and tighten things up, but there are still holes the size of Texas that any half-intelligent terrorist can exploit.

I for one think the only capital crime being committed is by the US Government against its own citizens, festering an atmosphere of absolute paranoia and fear instead of the fortitude and confidence that saw the US through so many conflicts in the past ranging from the War of Independance through the World Wars to the Cold War and even the Iraq conflicts. There are enough chicken littles at grass roots level that you don't need Tom Ridge on National TV telling you that Orange is the flavor of the week.

But hey, its your country and I'm perfectly willing to sit on the sidelines outsourcing your jobs to a booming economy in India (which incidentally has more victims of terrorism than pretty much the rest of the world combined yet seems to get along fine) while you guys run around screaming that the sky is falling down. Happy New Year!
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
commander_rabb
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:25 pm

Anyone who is so scared about giving their fingerprint and photo is hiding something. Something from others or themselves. We all do or did give them at one time or another. What is the big deal?

The wave of the future is to prove you can travel safely as a citizen with no background to cause others concern about their traveling safely. That means giving your name, your worthless mug and a copy of your well inked thumb print. (Big deal.) You give your well earned money to travel, now give something else.

As far as being paranoid about safety, if you people only knew what has and is being prevented you would chirp a different tune.

Travel safe, others are making sure that you can.
 
jcs17
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Securit

Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:25 pm

I agree with you Sean, aviation security in the U.S. is still a complete joke, as are our borders. That won't change until we get rid of the burger-flippers at the TSA and replace them with professionals. The airlines must also take responsibility for their own security. As for the borders, well we won't get into that, I'll save it for a rant on non-av.

However, as for the paranoia that you speak of, I really don't think thats the case. First of all, the public should know when there is an increased risk of a terrorist attack, not to scare people, but so that people are prepared. Secondly, there was absolutely paranoia (if you want to call it that) during the Cold War and WWII. How else do you explain the McCarthy trials, kids doing nuclear attack drills in school (although I'd chalk that up to preparedness..not paranoia), and Japanese internment camps. The examples go on and on. I'd rather know about an increased risk and have it happen, than not know anything and have it happen.

Sean, I'll just be happy when Delta stops outsourcing their CSR's to India. As nice as they are, the thick Indian accent is too indecipherable!  Smile
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
L-188
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:28 pm

The essential equation come down to weather or not Americans are willing to trade liberty for security.

I agree with Ben Franklin on this, those that are willing to make this trade deserve neither.

unfortunately many Americans appear ready to make that exact trade.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
B747-437B
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:36 pm

First of all, the public should know when there is an increased risk of a terrorist attack... so that people are prepared

The fundamental concept of effective public safety is to always be prepared. Your argument is illogical in an environment where there is neither completely accurate advance intelligence, nor an effective mechanism to cross-check and eliminate false positives internally.

Sorry Josh, but the US's color coded warning scheme is the laughing stock of the world despite what Fox News may tell you.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
commander_rabb
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:41 pm

Benjamin Franklin was a man who lived over 200 years ago who had no idea what an airplane, a World Trade Center, or an Islamic terrorist is. If he had, he most certainly would have agreed that we must take steps to insure the survival and the success of liberty.

As is our constitution, the advancement of time, and the changing of ideas necessitates the need for amendments in ones life.

We must stop living in the 18th century and move forward an take steps to deal with the 21st century menace whether it be an Islamic terrorist or a terrorist fighting for the right to sell sponges on the street corner.

Identify your enemy and kill it with any means necessary. Once killed, we can then revert back to the old ways. If it's safe to do so.

 
commander_rabb
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:47 pm

People may think the color code is the laughing stock but there have been untold success since it's implementation. Laughing stock? Hardly. If only you were more educated in it's use and success you could perhaps realize that.

The U.S. is fighting hard and winning this war on terrorism but it is far from over. Prepare yourselves.



 
B747-437B
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:48 pm

Identify your enemy and kill it with any means necessary.

The problem arises when you start the proverbial killing without completing the proper identification.

Every entity has the absolute right to take whatever steps they alone deem fit to protect themselves. Every entity does not however have the absolute right to claim the moral high ground for their actions under those circumstances.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Leskova
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:58 pm

I think one of the biggest questions is - and remains: where do you draw the line?

Yes, if you have nothing to hide, you should not have any problems with having your photo and your fingerprint taken.

But this can be continued: if you have nothing to hide, you won't mind having your bags not only scanned but hand searched every time you're planning to fly.

And, if you have nothing to hide, then you'll have no problem opening up all your financial details (accounts, credit card details, etc.) to immigration, airlines, government, ...

And while we're at it, why don't we introduce monthly interviews for everyone at your local police station? If you've got nothing to hide, that shouldn't be a problem, right?


As quite a few posters here have pointed out, the rest of the world has been living with the threat of terrorist attacks for decades - India has, the United Kingdom has, Germany has, France has, Italy has, Japan has, and just about every other country has as well.

True, an attack as on 11 September has not been carried out against another country, but just look at the number of deaths that some other countries have had to live with?

And, please, don't even try to argue with those countries not being as free or as democratic as the US...

Look at what the IRA has done in the UK and Northern Ireland? Look at what the RAF (no, not "Royal Air Force", but "Rote Armee Fraktion") has done in Germany? Look at what Basque separatists have done in Spain?

All three of them are democracies, and all three continue to live with the threat of terrorism - and none of these three needed a color coding system to cope with it.


Certainly the US has the right to take every measure that they consider necessary - and, just as certainly, the rest of the world (and a sizeable amount of Americans) does not have to like it (just as you'll find people in the rest of the world fully agreeing with the measures that the Americans are taking).

The fight against terrorism is a worthy cause, but this actually puts even more pressure on the means used in it: going around ones own laws will not improve the situation, it'll only breed more resentment.


In the end, it probably comes down to the question: does the end justify every and all means?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
thadocta
Posts: 389
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:13 pm

"Benjamin Franklin was a man who lived over 200 years ago who had no idea what an airplane, a World Trade Center, or an Islamic terrorist is. If he had, he most certainly would have agreed that we must take steps to insure the survival and the success of liberty.

As is our constitution, the advancement of time, and the changing of ideas necessitates the need for amendments in ones life.

We must stop living in the 18th century and move forward an take steps to deal with the 21st century menace whether it be an Islamic terrorist or a terrorist fighting for the right to sell sponges on the street corner."


So the next time that the government takes an action which is later struck down as "unconstitutional", you will be up in arms at the courts decision?

Looking at just one example, "random breath testing", which has been ruled unconstitutional in the Untied States, since it involved unreasonable search, despite the fact that it has greatly reduced the road-toll around the world.

I presume that the next time it is introduced, and then struck down, you will be protesting about it not being available? I don't think so.

Either you have an obscure 18th Century document which you run everything by or you don't. If you choose to ignore it when it suits you - and you are clearly advocating this - then you are leaving yourselves open to all sorts of problems ("President wants three terms? Prohibitted by constitution? No problem, we can ignore the constitution when it suits us".) and so on.

Dave
 
L-188
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:02 pm

Benjamin Franklin was a man who lived over 200 years ago who had no idea what an airplane, a World Trade Center, or an Islamic terrorist is. If he had, he most certainly would have agreed that we must take steps to insure the survival and the success of liberty.


No but he was an "american terrorist" so I think he had a little bit of insight.

And back then they did take steps to insure the survival and success of liberty,

You may have heard of them


The US Constitution
The Bill of Rights

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
artsyman
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:53 am

Sorry Josh, but the US's color coded warning scheme is the laughing stock of the world despite what Fox News may tell you.
****

Only because most people do not understand the purpose of it. The coding has nothing to do with the average person and is meant entirely for the law enforcement and government agencies.

Continental airlines has a code system like this for turbulence. It means that the captain can tell you that the upcoming turbulence will be level 1-5. This means that every FA on the flight knows what to expect. Code 5 being severe, and that you really need to be strapped in, and code 3 for example may mean that you do not need to be strapped in, but you will have trouble walking the aisles. I could be more specific, but I cant be bothered to type it all out. Thus....

The coding for National security is that when you hit level Orange for example, there is a criteria that specifically needs to be met during that time. When it is at yellow, there is a criteria that needs to be specifically met during that time. This makes it a lot easier for people, takes confusion out of it, as they know what they have to do..., it is the same as when the pilot says..."ah, folks, it is going to get a little bumpy in the next 10 minutes, and you are left wondering how bumpy that is..."

It takes the ambiguity out of the situation, and as I said above, it is not designed at all for the public consumption.

[Edited 2004-01-02 19:58:14]
 
artsyman
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:36 am

Another Interesting article I just read from the newspapers proves that whatever you do, you will be hammered for it. The papers(and many of you on here) took the stance that the US shouldnt have announced the plan to cancel the AF flight until the people had all checked in, and therefore give themselves a chance to catch the people in the act. Well today, the same newspapers are reporting how bad it is that the airline didn't cancel the flights until after people had checked in, and how it was a total sham for the passengers.

You tell them in advance = wrong decision
You don't tell them in advance = wrong decision
 
OO-AOG
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:50 am

The fact is simple. If you don't want to be subjected to stringent security measures you don't have to travel to the United States. Period.

I agree, I strongly support US Aviation/Homeland security by not going to the USA anymore. That makes one passenger less to question, open the bags, have the bags hand searched , take the photo, take the fingerprints, have a body search, double-search, triple search etc... no thanks not for me... I had enough. I prefer to spend my holidays in friendly countries where I can enjoy some kind of freedom without having to go through a KGB-style system.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
artsyman
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:07 am

That makes one passenger less to question, open the bags, have the bags hand searched , take the photo, take the fingerprints, have a body search, double-search, triple search etc...
*****

As usual, there is always someone to exaggerate this out of proportion. I fly international in and out of the US all the time, and do not, and have not ever experienced any of what you suggest. However, you try to make it sound like every single one of the millions of people that arrive in the US each day are subjected to this.

Grow up

Jeremy
 
FDXmech
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:18 am

>>>As quite a few posters here have pointed out, the rest of the world has been living with the threat of terrorist attacks for decades - India has, the United Kingdom has, Germany has, France has, Italy has, Japan has, and just about every other country has as well.

True, an attack as on 11 September has not been carried out against another country, but just look at the number of deaths that some other countries have had to live with?
<<<

So what you're saying is the rest of the world has lived with terrorism so then should the U.S?

Did all the countries you name try to eradicate terrorism or did they placidly sit by?

Interestingly France has one of the toughest anti-terrorism program's and has for years. Do you think France should sit idly by with the rationale that other countries suffer from terrorism too.

On a different note, what separates proactive from paranoia?
I think paranoia is an irrational fear of something that doesn't exist. We should all be aware by now that terrorism does indeed exist.
The worst kind of problem is one that isn't recognized nor addressed.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
OO-AOG
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:29 am

Artysman

As usual, there is always someone to exaggerate this out of proportion. I fly international in and out of the US all the time, and do not, and have not ever experienced any of what you suggest. However, you try to make it sound like every single one of the millions of people that arrive in the US each day are subjected to this.

I fly extensively worldwide as well, and nowhere else I had to remove my shoes and had to be hand searched fourteen times out of 15 flights (MY personal experience). Nowhere. I don't blame the USA, you do whatever you want within your borders if you consider it mandatory for your safety, but on my side I prefer to travel somewhere else. That simple.

Cheers
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
B747forlife
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:51 pm

Has anyone ever considered that these warnings, and all this other stuff HAS actually prevented an attack? Maybe the terrorists decided not to act because we were on to them. Maybe we caught some people and just haven't let the world know. I mean, so many people look on the precautions the US is taking as being absurd and scare tactics, when in reality, they could be working and stopping terrorism.

Just a thought.

-Nick

PS. Of course there is the possibility that it is all a shame, but most people have not given the things I mentioned higher a thought at all. I believe that it has stopped some activities, but I am a little miffed at some of the rights we, as Americans, have lost to anti-terrorism.
 
L-188
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:04 pm

Has anyone ever considered that these warnings, and all this other stuff HAS actually prevented an attack


Nope, I wonder if all this "intellegence" and "chatter" is just false signals on the part of you know who, to guage american response and work their way around it.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
FDXmech
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:35 pm

>>>I don't think you appreciate the dangers of databases.<<<

Actually this strikes me as paranoid.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
L-188
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:53 pm

Actually this strikes me as paranoid.

Not really.

Just take the database on credit ratings.

The error rate is 30% of the total in the system




That will just keep you from buying a house, Imagine if you where label a terrorist or suspected terrorist due to a database.

Don't laugh, the credit rating is one thing they are looking at.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
SA7700
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:25 pm

Commander_Rabb


The majority of the world population can not simply grab their passports, jump on a plane or boat to the USA and present themselves to US Customs for a nice holiday or a business meeting in the States.

The majority of us are not on the USA Visa Waiver programme and are subject to obtaining visas (pasted in our passports) before we are even allowed to step onboard a plane bound to the USA. We are compelled to travel to a US Embassy or Consulate (of their choice), nevermind if it is hundreds of miles away, and present ourselves to a US Consular official for a personal interview.

Let me point out to you that this is after we have handed in our "worthless mugshots", audited financial statements, personal and business bank statements, employment letters and title deeds proving ownership of property. All this information is then submitted to cross-checking of names in a highly sophisticated inter-agency database.

You wait to be called for an interview, where the Consular Officer then proceed to ask you exactly the same questions that has already been asked and answered on one's visa application. Your visa is then either approved or declined. If it's approved, you can swing by in the afternoon to collect your passport.


Then on arrival in Atlanta Airport, authorities have little cameras installed at the various custom official desks in international arrivals. While your passport and return airline tickets gets the eye, they take a quick photo. Nonetheless the fact that they already have a photo of you on their database, which must conform to the following specs:

http://pretoria.usembassy.gov/wwwhst2f.html
____________________________

Please submit, along with your application, one photograph of each applicant. We regret that we are unable to accept photographs that do not conform to the following specifications (such as id photographs):

The size of the photo, including background, must be 2 inches square (roughly 51 mm square).

The photo must be unmounted, full face, taken within the last 6 months.

The applicant must be facing the camera, looking straight on, with the face covering approximately 50% of the area of the photo.

The entire face of the applicant must be shown. From the crown of the head to the tip of the chin, and from hairline side to side, preferably with the ears exposed.

Photo may be in color or black and white but must have a white or off-white background, without borders.

We regret that applicants who arrive at the Consulate lacking the correct sized photographs will be asked to obtain new ones, and will be required to schedule new appointments.
______________________________________


Now the officials want to take additional photos and have our fingerprints as well. They already have hold of private information such as bank statements and accounts, although we are not US Citizens. What's going to be the next requirement as a matter of national security? A customs official quick pricking your finger for a bloodsample? Spit in a cup or a plucked hair for DNA testing? Oh yes and before I forget, then we proceed to hand over our well earned money and pour it into the USA economy.

I went through this entire process because I had the opportunity to travel and wanted to experience the US and it's people for myself. But with all due respect, what would the majority of US Citizens reaction be if they themselves were subjected to the same treatment as the above? Would they even consider travelling to such a country?

Sadly it seems as if it would have to be a NO, because you yourself pointed out: "Seems to me that a country like Brazil stands to loose a whole lot more than the U.S. will from this obvious one-upmanship."

It's exactly this kind of attitude that robbed more than 3000 innocent victims of their precious lives.....
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
airplay
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:52 am

America suffered through the loss of 3,000 citizens (and other nations lost many citizens, as well) on 9/11 due to piss poor homeland security.

America suffered through the loss of 3,000 citizens on 9/11 due to piss poor foreign policy. And now the Bush administration is doing quite a piss poor job of patching up all the past mistakes by substituting diplomacy (which would make him appear weak in conservative's eyes) with paranoia and fear which are much more powerful tools....
 
B747forlife
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:09 am

L-188, see you don't even consider that we have already stopped attacks, wow, way to cynical at best...

-Nick
 
L-188
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:24 am

L-188, see you don't even consider that we have already stopped attacks, wow, way to cynical at best...


Stopping and delaying are two entirely seperate things.

While terrorists may have adjusted their plans and timetables, those plans are still in play.

And Alpha thanks for explain why my RR rating just went up 5 points  Big thumbs up
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
B747forlife
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:03 am

L-188, what I'm saying is that now that they know that we can hear them when they talk about flights, whether they are just checking around or not, they probably will try and find a new method of operation. We've shown that we are paranoid, as Alpha 1 and others have said, but sometimes paranoia is justified, and it is my belief that in this circumstance (the flights being cancelled) that the administrations actions are justified.

I think the terrorists are trying to base their actions on our bad intelligence (it was intelligence failures that led to 9/11, according to the congressional report, correct?) and they are beginning to see just how good our intelligence REALLY is. What this really has to do with the topic I'm not too sure but anyway...

-Nick
 
Alpha 1
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:07 am

but sometimes paranoia is justified..

Paranoia is NEVER justified. Taking prudent steps is justified; doing things smartly is justified; but giving into wanton fear and having fear in every breath you take, as Jcs seems to to, and as this Administration seems to do, isn't justified-it's just stupid. And it will make you no safer. Indeed, I'm of the beilef we'll be less safer because we're not using our heads to solve (or to make) problems, we're going on emotion, and that will put you in vulnerable situations. Of course, what the other part of this paranoia is doing is hacking away at our ability to be a truly free people.

Paranoia isn't justified in any light. It's not using intellect, it's going on emotion.

..and they are beginning to see just how good our intelligence REALLY is.

Yeah, it's so good that we've found just loads of WMD's in Iraq. Any President worth their salt takes intelligence with a huge grain of same.


[Edited 2004-01-04 19:08:09]

[Edited 2004-01-04 19:08:34]
 
jcs17
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Securit

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:19 am

I do not think the government is out to scare people. What would that accomplish? Nothing, in fact, it would be purely counter-productive for the economy. I know you're going to try to throw the 'Bush is just trying to raise his poll numbers' excuse at me. Which is complete crap--and you know it. However, if I was you, I'd be begging the government to be tougher. You realize that if there is a second terrorist attack using airplanes on American soil, you'd be out of a job faster than you could say 'Jihad.' Right?

As for myself, yeah, I am mildly afraid of another terrorist attack occuring. I just don't want to ever have to see 3,000 dead people lying in a pile of rubble again. I'm not really scared for my own well-being. All of my relatives, well, except for the one in Crapchester, live in major Northeast cities, including one who was two blocks away from the WTC during the attack. Sorry, my fault, I guess I really shouldn't be afraid for their well-being because that would be "un-American."

As for L-188, what does he have to worry about? Terrorists blowing up a few moose? I mean, talk about insulated from the world.

A few? Again, I think something was definitely up, with all these cancellations, but saying now it's "a few" is disingenuous.

There are hundreds of trans-continental flights daily, and only about 18 have been delayed/cancelled due to security concerns in the past week. It is a very small percentage.

Next, I suppose, we'll have to hear "papers, please?", when traveling from Cleveland to Los Angeles, or from Miami to Boston or whereever. And fools like Jcs, scared to breathe in today's world, will applaud it and advocate it. This paranoia is turning us into another Soviet Union. What a sad commentary on the mindset of our leaders and many of our people.

Quit being such a reactionary Alpha1. You also know that if this was a Democrat in the White House you'd be praising their efforts for aviation security.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
777236ER
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:47 am

I do not think the government is out to scare people. What would that accomplish? Nothing

Fear is one of the key ingrediants to consumption. The terrorists are out to get us! Solution? Billions of dollars worth of spinkey new fighters. If you let the Democrats run the country they'll let the terrorists get us! Solution? Four more years of Bush.

The same goes for nearly every product advertised on TV and the internet. It's the fear of being uncool, fat, boring or in some way "un-normal" that makes people spend spend spend.

I'm not really scared for my own well-being

So, then, what's the point of the stupid "terror level" that's flashed up all the time on Fox News? Will it EVER go below yellow?

Why do you think it never does, Jcs17?


Sorry, my fault, I guess I really shouldn't be afraid for their well-being because that would be "un-American."

In that case, shouldn't you be more worried about big, pointless cars in the city centre? Y'know, the ones that are about a thousand times more likely to kill your realitives than a terrorist attack? Or what about pollution? Why isn't Fox flashing up "air quality level" warnings on TV all the time? More people die of asthma every year than will EVER die in a terrorist attack.

You also know that if this was a Democrat in the White House you'd be praising their efforts for aviation security.

He voted for Bush, numbnuts.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Alpha 1
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:17 am

I do not think the government is out to scare people. What would that accomplish?

You show your age in that one, Jcs. Fear is a great weapons that many governments have used over history. Fear, in this case, it to accept whatever the hell the government says-as you do-in keeping us "safe". Even though the price of feeling "safe" is giving up freedoms and considering ideas, foreign and domestic, that once were unthinkable. Fear, in this case, can guarnantee votes for one person. I think they have used fear as a weapon, and they will continue to do so to suit their own political agenda.

However, if I was you, I'd be begging the government to be tougher...

It depends where they get tougher, Jcs. If it means hunting down Al Qaeda and giving them no quarter, that's fine. But if it means subjecting people who are no threat to this nation to the indignity of being photographed and fingerprinted like a common criminal; if it means putting fighter jets on every freaking aircraft that approaches JFK or IAD; if it means closing our borders, than that's just lunacy, and the terrorists win by default.

We're putting way too many of our resources towards things that will do absolutely nothing to make us safer-and that included the continuing war in Iraq. It hasn't made one dent in making us more secure. Get tougher with the terrorists, not thos who are it's potential victims.

As for myself, yeah, I am mildly afraid of another terrorist attack occuring.

Bullshit. You reek of terror, my young friend. You're willing to do ANYTHING to stop an attack. You're willing to throw away every freedom, every liberty, everything that we've taken for granted for the last 100 years, just for the ILLUSION of feeling safer. Well, I'm not willing to do that. I'm not willing to live in a police state just to be free. There used to be a saying "Better dead than Red", which meant, in it's simplest form, that one would rather die than live under the boot of a police state. Well, it still hold true for many Americans. What is it worth, if we give up everything we've been for 200 years, simply for the illusion of safety? Sorry, you can go on being frightened to death, and be willing to show papers anytime you leave your own state, which it may yet come to under these lunatics in Washington. I'd rather be dead than be a prisoner in my own land, son.

I just don't want to ever have to see 3,000 dead people lying in a pile of rubble again.

Neither do I, but they would have died in vain if we continue down this path of paranoia and fear, and worrying about every shadow that passes overhead. They died for NOTHING, if we don't perserver, and keep our freedoms in tact. Again, you go be scared. I'm too busy being a free person to live in such stinking terror.

Quit being such a reactionary Alpha1. You also know that if this was a Democrat in the White House you'd be praising their efforts for aviation security.

Jcs, I'm being dead serious, and I'd feel the same way if it were a Democrat. I'm not like you-I don't blindly root for one side, and blindly root against the other in domestic politics. I'm not forsworn to voting Democratic as your are in voting GOP. You'd vote for Satan himself if he declared he was a Republican. I'm not a mindless robot in that regard as you are.
 
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yyz717
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RE: The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security

Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:17 am

America suffered through the loss of 3,000 citizens on 9/11 due to piss poor foreign policy.

Not true. America suffered 3000 dead on 9-11 because of perceived weakness by Clinton: he barely retaliated for the NBO bombings and the 1993 WTO bombings; he retreated from Somalia.....the Islamist enemy saw weakness in US actions and vulnerability.....that's why they struck on 9-11.

The only thing militant Islam understands & respects is brute force. They are determined to destroy the West since the West is the biggest threat to their existence simply because of our technology, prosperity, democracy & freedoms....they cannot risk having these spread to Islamic countries.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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